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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Active shooter.
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Author Topic: Active shooter.  (Read 15510 times)
Flying Pig
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« on: December 26, 2015, 07:59:13 PM »

That discussion got locked?   Did I miss something?  Was it going bad?   For once in a very long while we managed to discuss an interesting topic.  Was it a bit to real world for CAPTalk?
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2015, 08:58:34 PM »

One of the moderators, Pace overreacted I think to comments that Arajca and me posted. He locked it.

We - Arajca and me - were trying to tone it down as it was getting a little out of control. Re-read his comments.

I do not take this thing too light. It is something that will affect me personally if it happens.

I had posted in a different thread that I am a school teacher in the Department of Education New York City, and we would be asked to lock the classroom, move students away from windows and doors. At the same time I am a squadron commander of a squadron that meets in a public high school.

Go figure. When others post here in response to a topic that I feel is out of hand, everyone jumps on me. When I try to tone down comments made by others, I am still jumped on! CAPTalk being a "place to exchange ideas, comments, etc?"

Not so.
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Squadron Safety Officer
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EMT-83
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« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2015, 09:26:33 PM »

Honestly, the entire forum is a shadow of its former self. I guess like CAP, it's cyclical and maybe the meaningful conversations will return.
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A.Member
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« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2015, 10:02:37 PM »

That discussion got locked?   Did I miss something?  Was it going bad?   For once in a very long while we managed to discuss an interesting topic.  Was it a bit to real world for CAPTalk?
Same question. 

Evidently the OP had enough feedback according to the mod and as a result the thread should be locked?!  ::)   If that's the threshold, then nearly all threads here can be locked and the site can be shut down.

Locking the thread was a serious over-reaction and a bit out of line by Pace.
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"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
Holding Pattern
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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2015, 11:31:24 PM »

That discussion got locked?   Did I miss something?  Was it going bad?   For once in a very long while we managed to discuss an interesting topic.  Was it a bit to real world for CAPTalk?
Same question. 

Evidently the OP had enough feedback according to the mod and as a result the thread should be locked?!  ::)   If that's the threshold, then nearly all threads here can be locked and the site can be shut down.

Locking the thread was a serious over-reaction and a bit out of line by Pace.

Please read his entire post, specifically:
Quote
I am also not a fan of the ill-attempted humor over a subject that is a crippling reality in our society right now. For those whose lives have been affected or will be affected by mass violence, it's not funny.

Perhaps like in that thread, I'm in the minority again in agreeing that the "humor" in that thread was in poor form.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2015, 11:41:20 PM »

It's crippling our society, but we'll stop talking about it here because someone made a joke...
Got it. 
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Holding Pattern
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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2015, 11:42:54 PM »

There were a multitude of reasons given. I pointed out one other because people were focusing on one. That doesn't mean you then just focus on the new one pointed out.

Let the topic die.
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Pace
CAPTalk Moderator
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« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2015, 12:26:10 AM »

Like so many other times over the last decade, this started with me receiving a complaint from a member about another member's comment. Like all times before, I quickly reviewed the posts in question and made a very quick review of the topic as a whole. I observed that there was a lack of professionalism in several of the comments. For a forum that is highly visible to a multitude of interested members, potential members, stakeholders, and parents, it is inappropriate to write comments, even light-heartedly, that are off-topic, divisive, and clearly intended as a sarcastic rant or humor in poor taste rather than a constructive addition to the topic at hand.


That being said, I actually do think that this is one of the most relevant threads I have seen in a long time. It's a shame that more than one of our members could not resist the urge to be unprofessional and off-topic. By that, I am referring to more than just the few posts that I originally addressed when I locked the thread.


You claim that I over-reacted and was out of line, and you mock what you perceive is political correctness. However, no one wants to take accountability for statements that were clearly not in line with the level of professional conduct that we expect from our leadership. Moderators exist to put an end to topics that have drifted off topic, have become inappropriate or unprofessional, are going in circles, or are otherwise violating the membership code of conduct. It is ultimately a subjective opinion of an admin or moderator when actions are taken on a thread based on the purpose of this site and the code that guides it. The previous thread was at several points off-topic and out of control. I ended it for that reason. You are welcome to continue the discussion here. If it stays on topic and does not become passive-aggressively hostile like the previous thread, it will likely continue without being locked.
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Lt Col, CAP
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2015, 07:59:03 AM »

I may be affected by the situation as I stated since I am a school teacher in a system that teaches not to aggressively react to the active shooter.

What do I do in that case? React the way I believe I should act and get fired for not following departmental policy?

Since my squadron meets at a public school, I have to uphold school policy.

I do not mind lessening the seriousness of this topic.
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Squadron Safety Officer
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2015, 11:36:44 AM »

You don't mind lessening the seriousness of the topic?   Not sure what that means.   So because you are a school teacher this is hard for you to discuss?
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1st Lt Thompson
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Unit: GLR-MI-063

« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2015, 12:27:28 PM »

I haven't read the entire previous post, so I apologize if I'm repeating anything anyone else said, just wanted to put in my .02.

The Commander of the Michigan National Guard recently had every member of the Guard go through Active Shooter training, and as a local journalist, I had the opportunity to attend. The training was very interesting, and included lots of facts and evidence, as well as listening to recordings and video of actual active shooter scenarios from surveillance cameras. There were things in that video that can't be unseen, the training was very eye opening.

I'll leave out all of the facts about gun free zones and other political topics, but the main point of the training is that the traditional "run and hide" mentality generally gets people killed during an actual active shooter scenario. In cases where the potential victims tried to fight back, the amount of casualties were greatly reduced. In the video, the school children hid under desks, and the shooters just walked around and taunted them before shooting them. Terror is a big part of the motive, and once you're pinned under a desk and the shooter is right in front of you, there is nowhere to run and hide. They literally made fun of them for hiding, made them cry even more, and then shot them anyway.

Personally, I've worked in places that mandated running and hiding in that situation. If I was ever actually in that situation, I would hope that I would have the sense to fight back, and take my chances with the boss later, rather than hiding and taking the chance at losing my life.

Where we meet for CAP, we are in a hangar at the airport. If a shooter came in, there wouldn't be many places to hide or escape, so fighting back would be the only option for survival.

CAP should have a policy in place, and we should do some sort of drills, the same way we do fire drills.

Just my 2 cents.
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1st Lt Matt Thompson
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Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 22 MAY 01 (#11401)
LTC Don
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« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2015, 01:28:37 PM »

I like the concepts brought out in this video following San Bernardino--



Any video or statements or 'training' offered by 'official' sources from any of the three-letter agencies should be viewed with (severe) skepticism.  If someone like DHS comes out and says the Terror Threat Level is RED, you probably should have been in your bomb shelter the day before.  ::)
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Donald A. Beckett, Lt Col, CAP
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Gill Rob Wilson #1891
Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2015, 02:05:44 PM »

Quote
Not sure what that means.   So because you are a school teacher this is hard for you to discuss?

No, it is not hard for me to discuss. That is why I can minimize the harsh sound of it.
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Squadron Safety Officer
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2015, 03:23:04 PM »

I like the concepts brought out in this video following San Bernardino--





LTC Don:  Thanks.  This is one of the better videos I've seen on this topic.

The Commander of the Michigan National Guard recently had every member of the Guard go through Active Shooter training, and as a local journalist, I had the opportunity to attend. The training was very interesting, and included lots of facts and evidence, as well as listening to recordings and video of actual active shooter scenarios from surveillance cameras. There were things in that video that can't be unseen, the training was very eye opening...


1st Lt. Thompson:

Thank you for your very interesting post. I clipped the central point for brevity, but found the entire post very interesting.

How much time was invested by the MNG in the AS training?  One day, two days, a few hours?  Over a series of scheduled meetings? Did you do scenario based role playing?  Where was the cadre drawn from?

Also, Thank you, FP, for re-opening this useful conversation.

FWIW, as the "OP" from the prior thread I am still researching ideas and formats for AST that we might use within our existing operations space (local and unit culture, meeting location rules, local laws, etc.). 

Also, FWIW, I think the brief discussion in the closed thread of San Francisco school teacher reactions to some aspects of training provided valuable insight into cultural issues that must be considered ahead of time when planning and presenting AST.



« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 03:55:37 PM by Live2Learn » Logged
jeders
Global Moderator

Posts: 2,122

« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2015, 01:24:19 PM »

You don't mind lessening the seriousness of the topic?   Not sure what that means.   So because you are a school teacher this is hard for you to discuss?

I think what he meant, and I could be wrong, is that he doesn't mind the humor, even if it is a little off color, because it makes a very serious topic easier to discuss (we all process things differently).

I also think, and again I could be wrong, that his point about being a teacher was more to say that it is difficult to reconcile what is many times taught in active shooter training, that is to fight back when able, with district policy which is to not fight back. Because he is a teacher and they meet at a school in his district, he must therefore uphold district policy while at CAP, making it difficult to offer training which goes against said policy.

As a squadron commander, I think that this is an excellent idea for training, no matter who or where you are. To the OP: I'd like to see what you have planned when you're done with your research.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2015, 01:47:22 PM »

Ding Ding dinG!

 :clap:

We have a winner!

Jeders, thanks for stating my point of view.
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Squadron Safety Officer
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1st Lt Thompson
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« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2015, 03:18:29 PM »

Live2Learn,

The training was just one day, unfortunately no live drills it was mainly powerpoint presentations, videos and audio. Cadre consisted of NCO's from the Guard battalion, which is specifically an MP unit.

Interestingly, even though active duty military can't be armed while on base unless on duty and part of their position, in Michigan, National Guard and ANG members who are conceiled weapons holders can, and are encouraged to carry their own personal weapons at all times.

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1st Lt Matt Thompson
Squadron Leadership Officer, Squadron Historian
UDF, GTM3, MSA, MS

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 22 MAY 01 (#11401)
Flying Pig
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« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2015, 03:19:29 PM »

So for those of you who are fans of the movie The Right Stuff... "So what Gus is trying to say is...."
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2015, 03:24:19 PM »

Flying-

What are ya sayin'?  Need a translator!

 >:D
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Squadron Safety Officer
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Live2Learn
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Posts: 702

« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2016, 02:26:05 AM »

Tulalip, Washington experienced a tragic loss of life at the high school not very long ago.  This article is interesting in a couple of aspects:  http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2014/oct/25/teacher-tried-to-stop-washington-state-shooting/.  First, the article briefly mentions that it was 1st year teacher who confronted the shooter and probably prevented substantially greater loss of life.  And second, despite the number of students present, none engaged the shooter.  Students either ran in a panic or attempted to hide.  Not one student piled onto the shooter in support of the young woman who was wrestling for the pistol.  Why was that?
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Active shooter.
 


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