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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Active shooter.
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Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,043

« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2016, 11:29:08 AM »

a. The carrying of firearms prohibition is subject to the following exceptions:
(1) A member may carry firearms on his/her person when required to do so by law provided he/she has a written statement of proof of such requirement signed by the wing commander.


I have been a law enforcement officer for 20 years, 4 agencies, 2 states and I have served on a few task forces where people have been deputized as federal agents, Ive had state wide authority as well as authority in other states and I have yet to meet anyone required "by law" to carry a firearm off duty.  Required by law is not "required by agency policy".  Sure I dont know everyone, but can anyone tell me who in the US is required by law to carry a firearm on them even off duty, at all times?  Ive never met that guy. 

Maybe this will be easier since chances are, nobody here knows that person either.  Can anyone provide the statute that would cover that person, if that person were to exist?  If its legally required, then its a written statute somewhere.  And that means it will come with penalties and punishment guidelines should "that guy" be caught without his gun.  It will be a state law or most likely a federal law. 

As a side note, I work for an agency who's policy requires me to be armed at all times on and off duty as well as being required to carry an "approved restraint device"  Interesting huh?  But I am not required by law to carry.
I would be curious also....

Does anyone have any knowledge if this CAP exemption being granted to any member?  Surely there is a record of it.  Not personal names, but what agency falls under the requirements that allows the CAP exemption. Because it would be an agency.  No law is going to be written that covers a specific person by name. 

Interesting off-line discussion with a CAP member I know who is an FBI agent.  No agency or person that he knows of in his almost 15 years as an FBI agent is legally required to be armed 24/7 nor does he know of any state or USC that mandates it. 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 01:23:24 PM by Flying Pig » Logged
Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,043

« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2016, 11:38:07 AM »

...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 01:05:47 PM by Flying Pig » Logged
Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,043

« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2016, 01:00:35 PM »

Combined into one post.. I got a little carried away.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 01:23:11 PM by Flying Pig » Logged
NC Wing Range Master
Recruit

Posts: 26
Unit: MER-NC-162

Iredell CAP
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2016, 06:20:56 PM »

Mr Pig, I was not trying to "Flap my gums". 

I fully understand your point.  Trust me I see people every day that should not own a firearm.  You are right, we would have some that would show up to a Field Training Event with the latest Blackhawk thigh rig sporting a SIG with a laser sight and a suppressed AR 15, or they might just throw on a GI Pistol Belt and green holster and then be mistaken for a LEO or Military Police on duty.

Public perception is critical to CAP, understood.  We are not trying to raise commandos, and we don't need parents getting upset about...well...anything.  So, yes, I see your point.  Until we are able to play like grown-ups (using a small, discreet, well hidden and legal firearm rather than trying to be Rambo) we will have to be managed like this.
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AIRBORNE!  ALL THE WAY
1Lt Roger C. Ayscue, CAP
MER-NC-162 CDC
U.S. Air Force Auxiliary
iredellcap.com  
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 670

« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2016, 07:23:34 AM »

Again, I say that we abide by State Law.

And again, I ask would you want to be responsible for every CAP member that decides to carry a firearm? If CAP, Inc. changed the regulations to say follow local law, they are now on the hook for any action, legal or otherwise that a member does with a firearm.

They are understandably less than enthused about doing such a thing.

I get there is liability just waking up each day and CAP's lawyers are just as busy as any other non-profit our size. I'm all for lowering the fiscal and criminal exposure as much as we can.
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RRLE
Seasoned Member

Posts: 489

« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2016, 08:26:15 AM »

People say follow state law.  Does that apply to reciprocity agreements?  So if FL Wing and TN Wing have reciprocity, can FL members carry in uniform in TN?

FL and TN have reciprocity agreements. Florida has reciprocity agreements with about 35 states.

The wonderful state of Vermont does not issue any firearms/weapons license. Any law abiding citizen, from any state, may carry in the state of Vermont.
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Flying Pig
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Posts: 5,043

« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2016, 08:52:44 AM »

Yeah I know...   The hypothetical scenario was whether or not CAP would allow it if CAP just followed state laws.
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Flying Pig
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Posts: 5,043

« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2016, 11:19:21 AM »

Ive had several people  working on it... Friends who are State Police, DEA, ATF, FBI, Federal Protective Service, Secret Service, a Diplomatic Security Service Agent, Me, a couple friends who are attorneys.  One member here on CAPTalk who has been involved in a rather odd arena of dignitary protection.. Nobody knows of any agency or law that states a legal requirement that their members be required by law to be armed 24/7.

Maybe Im the only one interested  >:D

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NC Wing Range Master
Recruit

Posts: 26
Unit: MER-NC-162

Iredell CAP
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2016, 12:40:19 AM »

It may be that since I have never had a job that did not require that I use a firearm, to me it is noting unusual to have a sidearm.  I guess I just can not understand anyone that is that afraid of a firearm.

NOW....Some of the morons I have seen with a gun....That would make a preacher drink.  And, I can see the point, not every person that might have a gun is as well trained and careful as we would like...

...And Once Again Kids, This is why we can not have nice things, I tell ya! :o
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AIRBORNE!  ALL THE WAY
1Lt Roger C. Ayscue, CAP
MER-NC-162 CDC
U.S. Air Force Auxiliary
iredellcap.com  
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 670

« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2016, 01:06:15 AM »

Maybe Im the only one interested  >:D

Nope, I've asked around too. The urban legend is that some departments used to mandate off-duty carry until the unions started demanding compensation for that off-duty carry. If you're gonna make me do something, you're gonna pay for it.

All rumor though, I haven't seen a definitive source on that.

What I find interesting is that NHQ is so hyper allergic to firearms that they don't even give the wing commander authorization to bless cops (city/county/state/fed) who carry a firearm for 8-12 hours a day at work to carry one on CAP time. I suspect that's a sign of just how huge the liability is.
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isuhawkeye
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Posts: 1,311

John's web site
« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2016, 09:56:30 AM »

Prior to 2001 this Alaska law required aircraft in that state to carry a firearm as a part of a survival kit.  That piece of equipment has been removed as listed below.  This is probably where the CAP provision of as required by law came from. 

Alaska Statute Section 02.35.110

Emergency rations and equipment.

(a) An airman may not make a flight inside the state with an aircraft unless emergency equipment is carried as follows:

(1) the following minimum equipment must be carried during the summer months:

(A) rations for each occupant sufficient to sustain life for one week;

(B) one axe or hatchet;

(C) one first aid kit;

(D) an assortment of tackle such as hooks, flies, lines, and sinkers;

(E) one knife;

(F) fire starter;

(G) one mosquito headnet for each occupant;

(H) two small signaling devices such as colored smoke bombs, railroad fuses, or Very pistol shells, in sealed metal containers;

(2) in addition to the equipment required under (1) of this subsection, the following must be carried as minimum equipment from October 15 to April 1 of each year:

(A) one pair of snowshoes;

(B) one sleeping bag;

(C) one wool blanket or equivalent for each occupant over four.

(b) However, operators of multi-engine aircraft licensed to carry more than 15 passengers need carry only the food, mosquito nets, and signaling equipment at all times other than the period from October 15 to April 1 of each year, when two sleeping bags, and one blanket for every two passengers shall also be carried. All of the above requirements as to emergency rations and equipment are considered to be minimum requirements which are to remain in full force and effect, except as further safety measures may be from time to time imposed by the department.
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,859

« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2016, 10:07:03 AM »

Now wait, nobody says you can't own a gun. Nobody's even saying you can't carry a gun. All we're saying is you can't carry one in town. Now that's not so much to ask, is it?

--Lawman Virgil Earp to divided townspeople in the movie "Tombstone."
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 926

« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2016, 10:33:36 AM »

The previous CAP version, didnt have the "required by law" portion, it only prohibited carry except in survival equipment.  Which was the grey area that I am sure many a member used to justify it.  I am sure someone(s) abused that and strapped some big hacking giant desert eagle in a drop holster to their leg and claimed it was "survival" equipment.  Hence the pendulum swung back the other way, and made things as restrictive as they are today.  BITD as a cadet I knew many a member that carried concealed in the field (either under uniform or kept inside the gear) and it was usually something small but useful, usually compact revolvers, nothing ridiculous....but oh well

mk
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
Al Sayre
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Posts: 2,515
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2016, 01:49:07 PM »

Prior to 2001 this Alaska law required aircraft in that state to carry a firearm as a part of a survival kit.  That piece of equipment has been removed as listed below.  This is probably where the CAP provision of as required by law came from. 

Alaska Statute Section 02.35.110

Emergency rations and equipment.

(a) An airman may not make a flight inside the state with an aircraft unless emergency equipment is carried as follows:

(1) the following minimum equipment must be carried during the summer months:

(A) rations for each occupant sufficient to sustain life for one week;

(B) one axe or hatchet;

(C) one first aid kit;

(D) an assortment of tackle such as hooks, flies, lines, and sinkers;

(E) one knife;

(F) fire starter;

(G) one mosquito headnet for each occupant;

(H) two small signaling devices such as colored smoke bombs, railroad fuses, or Very pistol shells, in sealed metal containers;

(2) in addition to the equipment required under (1) of this subsection, the following must be carried as minimum equipment from October 15 to April 1 of each year:

(A) one pair of snowshoes;

(B) one sleeping bag;

(C) one wool blanket or equivalent for each occupant over four.

(b) However, operators of multi-engine aircraft licensed to carry more than 15 passengers need carry only the food, mosquito nets, and signaling equipment at all times other than the period from October 15 to April 1 of each year, when two sleeping bags, and one blanket for every two passengers shall also be carried. All of the above requirements as to emergency rations and equipment are considered to be minimum requirements which are to remain in full force and effect, except as further safety measures may be from time to time imposed by the department.

Out of curiosity, is there some kind of exemption for commercial carriers?  I imagine these requirements start to add up to the point of limiting weight & balance when the aircraft carries 200+ passengers & crew...
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,859

« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2016, 01:53:42 PM »

Al, seems to be covered in 14 CFR 121.353.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Al Sayre
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,515
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2016, 02:00:22 PM »

Thanks
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,056
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2016, 06:12:18 PM »

Prior to 2001 this Alaska law required aircraft in that state to carry a firearm as a part of a survival kit.  That piece of equipment has been removed as listed below.  This is probably where the CAP provision of as required by law came from. 

Alaska Statute Section 02.35.110

Emergency rations and equipment.

(a) An airman may not make a flight inside the state with an aircraft unless emergency equipment is carried as follows:

(1) the following minimum equipment must be carried during the summer months:

(A) rations for each occupant sufficient to sustain life for one week;

(B) one axe or hatchet;

(C) one first aid kit;

(D) an assortment of tackle such as hooks, flies, lines, and sinkers;

(E) one knife;

(F) fire starter;

(G) one mosquito headnet for each occupant;

(H) two small signaling devices such as colored smoke bombs, railroad fuses, or Very pistol shells, in sealed metal containers;

(2) in addition to the equipment required under (1) of this subsection, the following must be carried as minimum equipment from October 15 to April 1 of each year:

(A) one pair of snowshoes;

(B) one sleeping bag;

(C) one wool blanket or equivalent for each occupant over four.

(b) However, operators of multi-engine aircraft licensed to carry more than 15 passengers need carry only the food, mosquito nets, and signaling equipment at all times other than the period from October 15 to April 1 of each year, when two sleeping bags, and one blanket for every two passengers shall also be carried. All of the above requirements as to emergency rations and equipment are considered to be minimum requirements which are to remain in full force and effect, except as further safety measures may be from time to time imposed by the department.



"Shoot, a fellah could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPwW7RaPO_g


V/R
Spam



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Stonewall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,900

« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2016, 06:24:52 PM »

A Cadet in an Active-Shooter Incident
February 2013


James N is an active duty Air Force officer with multiple combat deployments in support of counter-insurgency and counter-terrorism operations worldwide. His opinions are his alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of any other entity.

It is 8:00am on a Tuesday morning and you are in math class dragging yourself through an algebra quiz that you are not prepared for. As you plot a parabola you ask yourself the time-honored question: “When the heck am I ever going to need this?!” Answer: never. But I had to plot parabolas, so now you do too.

One question that we as cadet program members need to ask ourselves is: does our status as cadet program members change anything about how we must or should act in a mass violence event? I believe that it does. Not because of any regulatory guidance from our program staff, but because of a simple philosophical truth: when we volunteered to wear the uniform of our country, we took on a duty to protect others. I also believe that the training you receive in cadet programs makes you uniquely valuable in a mass violence event.

I want to be abundantly clear here: this does not mean I think you should take a weapon to school, and it doesn’t mean I think you should be in a rush to take a bullet for your country and classmates. Editor’s note: that goes double for us here at CadetStuff.org.
So, what does it mean? It means that you can and should be part of the solution, and apply good Operational Risk Management to the possibility of a mass violence event at your school. My goal here is to teach you how to think about handling violence in school, rather than what to think. If you want a checklist of actions to take, talk to your teachers, school security, and local law enforcement. Consider the guidance that the Department of Homeland Security has given us here.

Operational Risk Management, or ORM, is how the military analyzes and handles the risks we take every day. Before I fly a combat mission, or before my brothers in the Army run a training day on the range, we sit down and do a deliberate assessment to consider what could go wrong and what we can do about it. The first step is to identify hazards. Consider that mass-violence events do not all play out the same. Foreign terrorists are a different type of hazard from disturbed students who are also different from inner-city gang members. Each type of attacker has different goals and different tools.

Then assess the risk. Assessing risk is a two-part endeavor: first you have to consider how likely the hazard is, then you have to consider how severe the hazard is. So, first let’s ask: what are the chances of a mass-violence event happening at your school? The odds are pretty darn small. You are much more likely to die in a car accident on your way to prom than face a shooter. That should shape some of your decisions. Next, ask yourself: if a mass-violence event happens, how bad can it get? Pretty darn bad. The severity of an active-shooter is why we need to take it so seriously and why it is getting so much attention right now.

The next step is to consider risk control measures. In other words, what can we do to make a mass-violence event less likely and what can we do to reduce the carnage if we fail to prevent it?

To make a mass-violence event less likely, we have to catch the guy before he starts shooting. That is not an easy task. Lots of people say and do unusual and even startling things but are harmless — and some real bad guys are very careful not to tip their hands before the attack. A good rule of thumb is, “If you see something, say something.” When in doubt, let your parents and your teacher know if you suspect someone may be preparing an attack. To help you sort out the threat from the background noise, consider the Air Force Office of Special Investigations’ list of indicators that an attack may be in progress.

Once a mass-violence event starts, the only way to make it less severe is to stop it or slow the attack. Lots of people have opinions about what you should do once the shooting starts. Again, I think you should review the DoHS material in the link above and talk to your local experts. But consider these ideas:

•  Get the emergency call out. Law enforcement needs good, timely information so that they can effectively challenge the attacker. If you have your cell phone with you, use it. Call 911, and be prepared to both follow their directions and volunteer information that might be helpful. Consider that in any tactical situation, the good guys will be looking for SALUTE information on the bad guys. SALUTE is a military memory-jogging acronym for SIZE, ACTIVITY, LOCATION, UNIFORM, TIME, EQUIPMENT. It is not a perfect checklist, but helping the police fill in those blanks might help speed up their response and save lives. It might sound like this: “Hello my name is James and I am reporting multiple gunshots at Alta Loma High School. I am in room #123 on the North East corner of the campus, with 30 other students. I can see 2 shooters moving together across the quad and shooting at kids in the quad, they are wearing white t-shirts and black cargo pants, the shooting started about a minute ago and I can see a lot of people hurt, the shooters have rifles and they are wearing some kind of vests.” Do not expose yourself to fire just to get a look at the attacker, or to get to the phone.

•  Have some tools at hand. You cannot and should notbring a weapon to school. With that said, I am not aware of any rule against having a trauma first aid kit in most schools and work places. Ask your school staff if the first aid kits in your classrooms are stocked with trauma supplies such as QuikClot, Tourniquets, and pressure bandages. Ask a member of the school staff to look through the classroom first aid kits with you so you can both be familiar with their contents in an emergency.

•  Get trained. Get the most advanced emergency medical training you can. Take a basic first aid class, take an EMT or First-Responder class, and then take a Tactical Pre-Hospital Trauma Life Support Class. Consider asking medics at your local military base to teach a Tactical Combat Casualty Care course to you and other cadets. Apply common sense and good judgment about employing your skills within your scope of training, and do not expose yourself to fire to do so.

Notice a theme yet? I am not talking about fighting the bad guy. Odds are very small, even in a mass-violence event, that you will even see the bad guy. However, you are very likely to see injured people who are stuck waiting for paramedics to come to them, and the paramedics will be waiting until law enforcement can make the scene safe enough to enter. That means that if a classmate is next to you and bleeding out, you either need to make the scene safe through intervening with the attacker, or evacuate the casualty to safety, or keep her from bleeding out until the paramedics can get to her. I think we owe it to William Sanders to know hemorrhage control.

Certainly, there is more we can do than just try to stop the bleeding. At least I hope so. I don’t have all the answers. I do know that for me, personally, the only wrong answer is the one that lets a killer go on killing unchallenged. Remember, that does not mean you need to be the one who challenges him; let a solid door do that for you. If you have a clear line of escape, by all means use it. Considering that most modern high schools are fenced in better than that detention facility in Zero Dark Thirty, though, that might not be an option.

If you are going to hide, consider the difference between cover and concealment – cover objects can stop bullets, concealment only stops line of sight. Locking and barricading the classroom door is a solid idea, but you might also consider what to do if he breaches that door. Consider that a fire extinguisher might provide some distraction and reach, at least long enough to facilitate a rush on the attacker. I don’t like the idea of telling you whether or not to fight. I don’t like the idea of using textbooks or fire extinguishers against a guy with a gun. If you must fight, gang up on him with a class of people, and engage with an overwhelming level of commitment and ferocity. You are fighting for your life. You MUST turn the tables through SPEED, SURPRISE, and VIOLENCE OF ACTION, to the point the attacker has to fight for his own life.

One final thought: you need to get smart on this subject. We owe it to the victims to know how each of these attacks started, what tactics the perpetrators used, what indicators the attackers gave off, and how the attacks were ultimately stopped. We now have a wealth of information about these attacks. There are links below that can help guide your research. Note the timeline of each attack compared to the number of casualties. Also note that at Columbine, Mumbai, and Norway, explosives were used. Once you get smart on it, help us come up with solutions. I put some ideas into this article, now I want to hear your better ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_Square_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_tech_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumbai_attack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_shootings_at_CIA_Headquarters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_attacks_related_to_schools
http://www.secretservice.gov/ntac_ssi.shtml
http://www.naemt.org/education/PHTLS/phtls.aspx
http://www.davecullen.com/columbine.htm
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Active shooter.
 


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