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lordmonar
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« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2016, 02:33:12 AM »

Fight or Flight.....we instinctively try to run to safety and only fight if we have to.

The concept of throwing yourself on a grenade is a high level learned behavior.
Most teenagers just have not learned it yet.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
ALORD
Member

Posts: 73
Unit: PCR-CA-123

« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2016, 01:25:47 PM »

In the analysis of workplace violence, it is very clear that the best overall "strategy" to utilize is the proactive model. This does include fighting back of course, but the overall stat's are colored by a mass homicide some of you may recall a few years back in New York city. Running away as fast and as far as possible is also a valid proactive measure, and will generally give you about an 85% chance of surviving a serious workplace ( Which includes schools) situation in which lethality is predicted. The Twin Towers are a good example; those people who would and could get away survived at a greater rate than those who relied on the policies or instructions of authorities to "shelter in place". This leaves an unpleasant feeling in many rescuers minds, knowing that the slow, old, and handicapped will be likely to perish. Many of the people in my former profession went to work in schools as armed agents. During training, it became clear to many of them that a proactive armed response by a single agent may include having to allow hostage executions, bomb detonations, or having to shoot through children, in order to pick the optimal moment to intercede; a thought too grim for many to bear. The passive intercession by police, as demonstrated in Columbine, was in retrospect, a poor choice ( Inaction due to over-analysis)  and with a sufficient number of trained responders, the optimal approach is a rapid assault. The reality of police intercession, of course, is that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away...( Most schools not yet having an in-house fast reaction team) Like sudden cardiac death, the optimal response is early defibrillation, quickly dispatching School shooters is uncomfortable to many, but it beats the heck out of the alternatives.

Students are often, to put not too fine a point on it, feminized into inaction when faced with a threat. A recent example was a high school football player observing another student point a gun at another student on the school bus. The Football player slammed the armed student to the floor. In this case, the school system's "Zero Tolerance" decided that the gunman, the football player, and the victim, had all been involved in a "Gun related incident" and all were expelled, leaving a permanent stain on the records of a couple of kids, one of whom should have gotten a Medal (in my opinion). Many, if not most School shootings would end quite quickly if the "Alpha Males" in the herd had not been  "fixed" by the veterinary practices of public education. The same is true of what we call "bullying". Students are not permitted to intercede in cases of the strong humiliating and dominating the weak ( Other than by filing a report with the administration, which does nothing generally other than exacerbating the situation
with "attitude adjustment seminars for all) The number of criminal cases arising from students being bullied until someone escalates the situation to serious violence is staggering, although I don't have anything other than anecdotal evidence to support this, I daresay that most people here can remember their elementary and high school days and will concur.

In point of fact, the actual numbers of people killed in actual mass shootings has declined. D.O.J. "studies" often conflate any shooting with multiple parties involved as "Mass Shootings". This would include, for example, two Police Officers shooting two evil-doers as a "Multiple shooting involving 4 persons" so the "facts" tend to be difficult to pull from the reportage. Another instance of dubious classification is "Firearms-related Death". About half of all death by firearms is a result of including suicides, largely in the middle-age to late-life white population. These deaths, that in the absence of firearms, may have been slightly reduced, but hardly eliminated. The statistical evidence we see is largely intended to muddy, rather than clarify, the actual risk of workplace violence. Allowing students to be armed in College is a far cry from allowing students to be armed in elementary or high school, but allowing armed teachers, properly licensed to carry firearms, has generally proven to be a sound strategy ( Even though I personally think most public school teachers are not by temperament well suited for armed intervention, i.e., they are liberal pacifists..except maybe in Texas!)

Any healthy person who has seen the violent death of a child is damaged in the process. In public view, professionals ( And here I optimistically hope to include my CAP Brethren) do not make jokes about such things. Among ourselves, we may use dark humor to help wipe away the darkness that would or could otherwise grow in our souls, as a means of discharging the pain. It's better than drugs or alcohol, and, but is must be kept among our own people, those who can actually relate in a more-than-theoretical way. In much the same way that tears are liquid stress overflowing from our bodies, humor, even off-color, is our human way of reducing the pain, and there is nothing wrong with it: In the right place, with the right people. Just not in a public forum.
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Spam
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« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2016, 01:58:16 PM »

That's one of the most thoughtful and best constructed posts I've seen on CAPTALK, or on any forum, in a long time. Thanks much.

Very Respectfully
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Live2Learn
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Posts: 625

« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2016, 02:06:45 PM »

In the analysis of workplace violence, it is very clear that the best overall "strategy" to utilize is the proactive model.... Any healthy person who has seen the violent death of a child is damaged in the process. In public view, professionals ( And here I optimistically hope to include my CAP Brethren) do not make jokes about such things. Among ourselves, we may use dark humor to help wipe away the darkness that would or could otherwise grow in our souls, as a means of discharging the pain. It's better than drugs or alcohol, and, but is must be kept among our own people, those who can actually relate in a more-than-theoretical way. In much the same way that tears are liquid stress overflowing from our bodies, humor, even off-color, is our human way of reducing the pain, and there is nothing wrong with it: In the right place, with the right people. Just not in a public forum.

From start to summary, thoughtful and helpful.

Thanks
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CAPDCCMOM
Seasoned Member

Posts: 244

« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2016, 02:12:24 PM »

I work in the Education arena. We have a yearly "Active Shooter" training and, at some point, an "Active Shooter Drill". I wish that my fellow "professionals" would start to take it seriously. As much as i hate to say it, it is not a question of if, but a question of when. How will I react on that day with a room full of students? Will I be a hero, or will I evacuate my students as quickly as I can praying for my own survival. These are the questions I think of very often. My husband has made me promise that I will not play hero and get my self to safety to live another day. I am surrounded by the liberal fuzzie wuzzies. I hear in the staff room of the evil of firearms. I frequently remind them, that when their home is broken into and their lives are threatened that they will call some one with a firearm. To all with a Law Enforcement background, this is one from the Education arena, broken as it is, that says "THANK YOU"
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 02:19:18 PM by CAPDCCMOM » Logged
Cliff_Chambliss
Seasoned Member

Posts: 406

« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2016, 11:19:54 AM »

We have been giving this a lot of thought of late and come up with several points/ideas which may or may not be useful.
During my Army days (Armored Cavalry) the training (and actual in Vietnam) was always attack the ambusher.  Trying to run-hide-escape generally did not work as well as attacking the attacker either killing them or forcing them to break contact.  Taking this forward in an active shooter situation it would seem the best option would be to attack.
Several of us tried an experiment of sorts.  Using paintball guns and a simulated active shooter situation we learned:
1.  In the attack do not attack straight on if it can be avoided.
2.  Keep moving side to side and if the shooter is using a handgun most shooters have a more difficult time hitting a target moving to their weaker side (Side away from the gun holding hand).
3.  A "war cry" is in order.
Our experiments were conducted in a rather open warehouse environment and would be difficult in a classroom setting and almost impossible in a theater.  Therefore it seems the best answer is still concealed carry and frequent practice and proficiency.  We admit our "experiment" is purely unscientific and reflect only our personal biases.

Related note:  A couple days ago three local fast food places were robbed by a 19 year old armed with an SKS Rifle.  In one a customer was shot in the face and killed because he was too slow in dropping to the floor.  In another, when he burst in and ordered everyone to the floor "an elderly patron" pulled his concealed handgun and fired one round towards the would be robber who then fled.  The Chief of Police is calling the customer a hero and saying publically he possibly prevented a repeat of the earlier shooting.  again, attack the attacker if you can't ambush him.
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Garibaldi
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« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2016, 11:42:58 AM »

All this is all well and good. However, the only actions I anticipate happening on my end is the following:

1. Hear gunshots.
2. Soil myself.
3. Run and hide.
4. Have a humiliating panic attack under a desk.

I don't really seeing me being the hero type, honestly.
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You can't take the sky from me. Also, I can kill you with my brain. No power in the 'verse can stop me.
THRAWN
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« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2016, 11:54:17 AM »

All this is all well and good. However, the only actions I anticipate happening on my end is the following:

1. Hear gunshots.
2. Soil myself.
3. Run and hide.
4. Have a humiliating panic attack under a desk.

I don't really seeing me being the hero type, honestly.

Bravely run away. Period.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
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Garibaldi
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Sandy Springs Cadet Squadron
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2016, 11:59:46 AM »

All this is all well and good. However, the only actions I anticipate happening on my end is the following:

1. Hear gunshots.
2. Soil myself.
3. Run and hide.
4. Have a humiliating panic attack under a desk.

I don't really seeing me being the hero type, honestly.


Bravely run away. Period.

I even have a song.

MINSTREL: Brave Sir Robin ran away

ROBIN: No!

MINSTREL (singing): Bravely ran away away

ROBIN: I didn't!

MINSTREL (singing): When danger reared its ugly head, He bravely turned his tail and fled

ROBIN: No!

MINSTREL (singing): Yes Brave Sir Robin turned about

ROBIN: I didn't!

MINSTREL (singing): And gallantly he chickened out Bravely taking to his feet

ROBIN: I never did!

MINSTREL (singing): He beat a very brave retreat

ROBIN: Oh, lies!

MINSTREL (singing): Bravest of the brave Sir Robin

ROBIN: I never!

MINSTREL (singing): Packing it in and packing it up
And sneaking away and buggering off
And chickening out and p***ing off home
Yes, bravely he is throwing in the sponge
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You can't take the sky from me. Also, I can kill you with my brain. No power in the 'verse can stop me.
Paul_AK
Member

Posts: 82
Unit: PCR-AK-011

« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2016, 12:04:52 PM »

Fight or Flight.....we instinctively try to run to safety and only fight if we have to.

The concept of throwing yourself on a grenade is a high level learned behavior.
Most teenagers just have not learned it yet.
I have heard it stated many times, and experienced it on a few occasions, that you do not rise to the occasion you fall to your highest level of training.
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Paul McBride, 1st Lt, CAP
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Earhart #13376
Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2016, 02:10:21 PM »

I work in the Education arena. We have a yearly "Active Shooter" training and, at some point, an "Active Shooter Drill". I wish that my fellow "professionals" would start to take it seriously. As much as i hate to say it, it is not a question of if, but a question of when. How will I react on that day with a room full of students? Will I be a hero, or will I evacuate my students as quickly as I can praying for my own survival. These are the questions I think of very often. My husband has made me promise that I will not play hero and get my self to safety to live another day. I am surrounded by the liberal fuzzie wuzzies. I hear in the staff room of the evil of firearms. I frequently remind them, that when their home is broken into and their lives are threatened that they will call some one with a firearm. To all with a Law Enforcement background, this is one from the Education arena, broken as it is, that says "THANK YOU"


https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2014/september/fbi-releases-study-on-active-shooter-incidents/pdfs/a-study-of-active-shooter-incidents-in-the-u.s.-between-2000-and-2013


https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=84


I'd say you're well off base with the fear.
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CAPDCCMOM
Seasoned Member

Posts: 244

« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2016, 02:41:05 PM »

Not fear Capt. Well placed realism. I have the unique distinction that I have disarmed three students. I break up fights regularly. My students know that I am the "Safe" person at school. I know how many of these kids are on an ankle bracelet. I speak with the JPO's. We have seized guns and drugs from student cars. The parent sell and deal.

Call me a coward if you like Sir, the Gorgon opened my eyes.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2016, 05:01:18 PM »

"Its not a matter of if, but a question of when"  is a mindset.  Not a fear.   I go to work everyday with that mindset, every time I get in an aircraft I tell myself, "today is the day".  Every time I go into a hole to get water for a fire I tell myself "This is where your engine fails."  Every time I set up for an orbit at night on NVGs I tell myself "This will be the orbit when it happens."  Every time I do a traffic stop I tell myself "This is the stop that ends bad."   No, Im not all stressed out but most everything I do that has an associated risk of a bad outcome usually has a plan for that bad outcome.  I could care less about any stats someone pulls off the internet.   For anyone who knows me... Im well beyond what the stats suggest for my profession.  No sense other people shouldn't do the same thing.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 05:17:21 PM by Flying Pig » Logged
ALORD
Member

Posts: 73
Unit: PCR-CA-123

« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2016, 05:19:35 PM »

There is not a thing wrong with running away from a threat ( Although I personally like to think of it as a "retrograde maneuver" even if it is accompanied by screaming like a little girl and waving your hands frantically in the air) Hiding after moving away from a threat also may be wise in many situations. Distance =time, and time provides the possibility to recapture the tactical advantage. I am not sure that soiling  one's trousers would be a sound survival technique, but it must be one of nature's or God's gifts to us, because someone trying to kill you in earnest causes just that reaction in a great many people. Actually experiencing the phenomenon known as beings "Scared-S******" is something you will never forget. It has the advantage, though, of making the sky seem just a little bluer, the grass a bit greener, and the taste of clean water a nearly religious experience. You could make a career out of studying survival tactics. As one person noted here, attacking is generally a better solution than breaking and running ( In ambush)  and another wise person pointed out moving to the armed gunman's weak side to lower the chances of getting shot. Most people will be frozen into immobility. Teaching people to immediately counter-attack a threat takes time and effort, and even then, the training is often abandoned when the wheels come off the bus. Since specifics have been brought up, I thought I would add my own two cents to the tactical picture. If bad guys are armed with handguns, and a group rushes them, some of the counter-attackers may be shot, but it is important to remember that MOST people shot with handguns do not die as a result of their wounds. ( A recent case in point is the Philadelphia policeman shot repeatedly at close range who then jumped out of his car, and chased down and shot the terrorist shooter) Television teaches us to fall down and die when someone shoots us, but this is just conditioning, even after being shot, especially with a handgun, you may still be able to run and/or fight. I dare venture that some of you out there have experienced varying degrees of what we call "being shot" , from fragments pinging your face to the full Monty thoracic gunshot, and lived to tell about it.

 This is less true of those shot with centerfire rifles and shotguns, but even then, a close proximity counter-attack by as large a force as possible provides the best chance of individual survival. A guy armed with an AK-47 in an elevator is not going to fair well if the elevator is filled with highly motivated and ruthless counter-attackers. School shootings, like Stockton on the one in Scotland, where a shooter stays back at a distance and shoots into a crowd are fortunately quite rare. ( As fortunately, school shootings in general are as well) Most are close quarters encounters.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2016, 05:28:50 PM »

Simply put, for most people, running is the best option.  Unless you train, condition and have the mindset needed the vast majority of people are not wired to counter assault a gunman.  I tell my kids never let anyone lock you down.  Run.  The odds of getting a group to counter attack with you isn't even a viable option unless you are actually trapped. But even then, people have been trapped together before and were executed 1 at a time while everyone else watched and knew their turn was coming.  Few people are fortunate enough to comment on active shooter from the stand point of having ever confronted one.  Unless you have a gun, run and take people with you  If you get trapped... hit the person or do whatever you can.  You may luck out and make it through.
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2016, 05:37:23 PM »

"Its not a matter of if, but a question of when"  is a mindset.  Not a fear.   I go to work everyday with that mindset, every time I get in an aircraft I tell myself, "today is the day".  Every time I go into a hole to get water for a fire I tell myself "This is where your engine fails."  Every time I set up for an orbit at night on NVGs I tell myself "This will be the orbit when it happens."  Every time I do a traffic stop I tell myself "This is the stop that ends bad."   No, Im not all stressed out but most everything I do that has an associated risk of a bad outcome usually has a plan for that bad outcome.  I could care less about any stats someone pulls off the internet.   For anyone who knows me... Im well beyond what the stats suggest for my profession.  No sense other people shouldn't do the same thing.

Preparedness is a healthy perspective.  It's akin to "situational awareness". 

FWIW, a couple of years ago I listened to the Dir of Safety for one of the larger civilian aviation humanitarian organizations.  His organization operates several hundred aircraft all over the world in over 50 countries.  They fly into every imaginable airstrip, and some that only barely meet that definition.  He spoke of how his organization cut the rate of fatal and serious accidents to very close to none from a big number in about 15 years.  His "secret" sauce?  Be prepared with prior knowledge and training, be situationally aware, be psychologically prepared to act:  1) memorize and rehearse emergency procedures weekly - at least in the minds eye; 2) establish clearly defined, known trigger points for abort/go around for every high risk operation; 3) for every flight employ thorough, detailed, pre-flight procedures; 4) assume every operation will have something potentially disastrous and unexpected occur... something like a kid running across the runway just before rotation or an abnormal engine or control indication; 5) being extremely pleased when everything works out as it's "supposed to", while being ready and in the frame of mind to implement emergency procedures when the indications line up...
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2016, 05:43:33 PM »

I do it regularly when I fly.  I can sometimes spend a couple hrs flying in a circle.  Usually within the first couple orbits I have all the LZs ID'd that I could auto into.   

There is a quote that has been used in police training for probably the last 30+ years.  "Conduct every traffic stop extending the olive branch of peace while having a tactical plan to kill everyone in the vehicle."    You dont have to like it, but thats how real life works. 
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2016, 06:19:02 PM »

Several people who I've PM'd with asked for an update on how and what we did with the Active Shooter Training.  The short answer is we haven't.  The question of whether we could do it was sent to the Wing Legal Officer, who bumped it to the OGC at National.  In a nutshell, we were advised we couldn't talk about this topic unless we had the Wing Commander's permission.  It's still not clear whether that would be forthcoming.  If this is such a controversial topic, perhaps CAP Safety might take the lead and get something together that is "approved", "sanctioned", and "OK" to use.  A lot of the discussion seems to be over whether or not to suggest anything other than escape or hide.  The "L" word (liability) seems to have garnered a lot of attention from National and Wing.

Dunno where this will wind up.  I'm moving on.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2016, 11:51:21 AM »

One of the biggest issues with CAP for something like this is the vast majority of people you are running this through for permission have no background in it.  So instead of saying "Im running this by the Wing Commander", if you say "Im running this by Joe, who is a 65yr old grocery store manager" it makes more sense why these things never go anywhere.  Your commanders know nothing about it and they wouldn't even know where to start. 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 12:01:51 PM by Flying Pig » Logged
kirbahashi
Member

Posts: 55

« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2016, 01:44:37 PM »

Several people who I've PM'd with asked for an update on how and what we did with the Active Shooter Training.  The short answer is we haven't.  The question of whether we could do it was sent to the Wing Legal Officer, who bumped it to the OGC at National.  In a nutshell, we were advised we couldn't talk about this topic unless we had the Wing Commander's permission. ...

Then this needs to be codified or National needs to get off its' butt and put something out!  Passing the buck only to pass the buck again is weak leadership.  We are not teaching brain surgery.  We would be providing information that has already been scripted by knowledgeable agencies.  Information and tactics that are endorsed by Government Administrators and Chiefs of Police throughout this country...  When I give a lightening safety brief, I am not telling them they must run to safety, I am telling them what they could do to increase their odds of survival. 


One of the biggest issues with CAP for something like this is the vast majority of people you are running this through for permission have no background in it.  So instead of saying "Im running this by the Wing Commander", if you say "Im running this by Joe, who is a 65yr old grocery store manager" it makes more sense why these things never go anywhere.  Your commanders know nothing about it and they wouldn't even know where to start.

Preach!

I am sure if we needed a limited-in-scope uniform test wear approval, that would be no issue.

Seriously... This must be how we win wars!
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Active shooter.
 


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