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THRAWN
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« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2016, 07:11:08 PM »

Ignoring an issue will make it go away. Semper Ostrich...
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Strup
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« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2016, 07:12:04 PM »

Or Just continue to throw money at it^^^^^
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THRAWN
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« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2016, 07:21:56 PM »

Or Just continue to throw money at it^^^^^

Passing the buck is not throwing money. The administrative square dance will continue until someone gets hurt. Part of the issue of National trying to develop and mandate a blanket policy is that it may conflict with local host installation policies. By way of example, I am a former member of 4 different squadrons. Each met in different facilities, and each had varying policies for security incidents. If National was smart, they would issue some kind of statement that say to the effect "If this happens, follow host installation procedures". Those procedures should also be mandatory annual inspection items, and a copy of the policy should be on hand and drilled, much like fire drills. Trying to mandate a one size approach from Maxwell just is not going to work.
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Strup
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NC Hokie
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« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2016, 07:28:29 PM »

Several people who I've PM'd with asked for an update on how and what we did with the Active Shooter Training.  The short answer is we haven't.  The question of whether we could do it was sent to the Wing Legal Officer, who bumped it to the OGC at National.  In a nutshell, we were advised we couldn't talk about this topic unless we had the Wing Commander's permission.  It's still not clear whether that would be forthcoming.  If this is such a controversial topic, perhaps CAP Safety might take the lead and get something together that is "approved", "sanctioned", and "OK" to use.  A lot of the discussion seems to be over whether or not to suggest anything other than escape or hide.  The "L" word (liability) seems to have garnered a lot of attention from National and Wing.

Dunno where this will wind up.  I'm moving on.
Page 10 of the April 2015 Safety Beacon might be helpful:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/April_Safety_Beacon_2015___adobe__f_96B37CCBE5EE1.pdf
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NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

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Live2Learn
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« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2016, 08:32:16 AM »

Several people who I've PM'd with asked for an update on how and what we did with the Active Shooter Training.  The short answer is we haven't.  The question of whether we could do it was sent to the Wing Legal Officer, who bumped it to the OGC at National.  In a nutshell, we were advised we couldn't talk about this topic unless we had the Wing Commander's permission.  It's still not clear whether that would be forthcoming.  If this is such a controversial topic, perhaps CAP Safety might take the lead and get something together that is "approved", "sanctioned", and "OK" to use.  A lot of the discussion seems to be over whether or not to suggest anything other than escape or hide.  The "L" word (liability) seems to have garnered a lot of attention from National and Wing.

Dunno where this will wind up.  I'm moving on.
Page 10 of the April 2015 Safety Beacon might be helpful:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/April_Safety_Beacon_2015___adobe__f_96B37CCBE5EE1.pdf


VERY helpful.  Thanks.
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LSThiker
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« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2016, 06:19:37 PM »

Look at page 7 of this month's safety beacon:

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/February_Safety_Beacon_2016__final__06906E307868E.pdf
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2016, 11:04:03 PM »

Look at page 7 of this month's safety beacon:

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/February_Safety_Beacon_2016__final__06906E307868E.pdf

Thanks.

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NC Wing Range Master
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Iredell CAP
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2016, 04:29:24 AM »

I may be affected by the situation as I stated since I am a school teacher in a system that teaches not to aggressively react to the active shooter.

What do I do in that case? React the way I believe I should act and get fired for not following departmental policy?

Since my squadron meets at a public school, I have to uphold school policy.

I do not mind lessening the seriousness of this topic.

I am new to the Topic and the Forum as a whole.  I am also a professional firearms instructor, both military and civilian and would like to weigh in on the issue.
I am in North Carolina, called by some "the Patron State of Shootin' Stuff."  Many of our citizens, myself included are LEGAL Concealed Carry permit holders.  I feel that the following is true:

1)  If you can legally carry a firearm by local and state law, then CAP should have no problem with a senior member DISCRETELY carrying a firearm to protect the Cadets, especially if there is a reason to concerned.  A TAC VEST and AR-15 is NOT what I mean.
2)  If someone is going to commit a crime with a gun, and have mentally made the choice to cross that line, No Sign, No Policy, No request, no Prohibition on weapons is going to stop that individual.
3)  One armed, permitted AND WELL TRAINED teacher or volunteer parent could have STOPPED New Town, Columbine, and Virginia Tech.
4)  WISHING that we were a Gun Free Society, and Hoping to appeal to the good-nature of bad people is like burying your head in the sand.
5)  Deadly Force is NOT A FUNNY TOPIC and lots of people say "I'd do this or that...Yeah Right there Chet...You have not a clue what you would do, likely wet yourself and then if you did use deadly force, sit and cry for a week (NOT TRYING TO BE FUNNY HERE...Being realistic.  Even a "righteous Shooting, will change you FOREVER)

There have been ZERO mass shootings in any place or venue where there was a high probibility that someone will stand up and fight back.  Those who would commit a mass shooting generally do not have the courage to face an armed opponent.

Political correctness is FOOLISH and Panders to the comfort of those that are looking to be coddled instead of growing up, growing a Sense of Humor and Putting on the Big Officer Pants.  Sorry if you want to cry about how Gun Control is a failure but could really work...IF....hommina=hommina-Wiff-Waff.

I will tell you that gun control ONLY works to disarm those that obey the law.  Yes, a Restraining order is effective, but a Restraining order, backed up by a .45 Automatic is WAY WAY WAY more effective.
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Toth
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« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2016, 04:47:41 AM »

I may be affected by the situation as I stated since I am a school teacher in a system that teaches not to aggressively react to the active shooter.

What do I do in that case? React the way I believe I should act and get fired for not following departmental policy?

Since my squadron meets at a public school, I have to uphold school policy.

I do not mind lessening the seriousness of this topic.

I am new to the Topic and the Forum as a whole.  I am also a professional firearms instructor, both military and civilian and would like to weigh in on the issue.
I am in North Carolina, called by some "the Patron State of Shootin' Stuff."  Many of our citizens, myself included are LEGAL Concealed Carry permit holders.  I feel that the following is true:

1)  If you can legally carry a firearm by local and state law, then CAP should have no problem with a senior member DISCRETELY carrying a firearm to protect the Cadets, especially if there is a reason to concerned.  A TAC VEST and AR-15 is NOT what I mean.
2)  If someone is going to commit a crime with a gun, and have mentally made the choice to cross that line, No Sign, No Policy, No request, no Prohibition on weapons is going to stop that individual.
3)  One armed, permitted AND WELL TRAINED teacher or volunteer parent could have STOPPED New Town, Columbine, and Virginia Tech.
4)  WISHING that we were a Gun Free Society, and Hoping to appeal to the good-nature of bad people is like burying your head in the sand.
5)  Deadly Force is NOT A FUNNY TOPIC and lots of people say "I'd do this or that...Yeah Right there Chet...You have not a clue what you would do, likely wet yourself and then if you did use deadly force, sit and cry for a week (NOT TRYING TO BE FUNNY HERE...Being realistic.  Even a "righteous Shooting, will change you FOREVER)

There have been ZERO mass shootings in any place or venue where there was a high probibility that someone will stand up and fight back.  Those who would commit a mass shooting generally do not have the courage to face an armed opponent.

Political correctness is FOOLISH and Panders to the comfort of those that are looking to be coddled instead of growing up, growing a Sense of Humor and Putting on the Big Officer Pants.  Sorry if you want to cry about how Gun Control is a failure but could really work...IF....hommina=hommina-Wiff-Waff.

I will tell you that gun control ONLY works to disarm those that obey the law.  Yes, a Restraining order is effective, but a Restraining order, backed up by a .45 Automatic is WAY WAY WAY more effective.


While I certainly agree with everything you're saying, I do think you could have said all of that without it being bold, maybe you should use italics and underline it too for maximum effectiveness
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SM Toth Mendius, CAP
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NC Wing Range Master
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Iredell CAP
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2016, 04:59:27 AM »

I may be affected by the situation as I stated since I am a school teacher in a system that teaches not to aggressively react to the active shooter.

What do I do in that case? React the way I believe I should act and get fired for not following departmental policy?

Since my squadron meets at a public school, I have to uphold school policy.

I do not mind lessening the seriousness of this topic.

I am new to the Topic and the Forum as a whole.  I am also a professional firearms instructor, both military and civilian and would like to weigh in on the issue.
I am in North Carolina, called by some "the Patron State of Shootin' Stuff."  Many of our citizens, myself included are LEGAL Concealed Carry permit holders.  I feel that the following is true:

1)  If you can legally carry a firearm by local and state law, then CAP should have no problem with a senior member DISCRETELY carrying a firearm to protect the Cadets, especially if there is a reason to concerned.  A TAC VEST and AR-15 is NOT what I mean.
2)  If someone is going to commit a crime with a gun, and have mentally made the choice to cross that line, No Sign, No Policy, No request, no Prohibition on weapons is going to stop that individual.
3)  One armed, permitted AND WELL TRAINED teacher or volunteer parent could have STOPPED New Town, Columbine, and Virginia Tech.
4)  WISHING that we were a Gun Free Society, and Hoping to appeal to the good-nature of bad people is like burying your head in the sand.
5)  Deadly Force is NOT A FUNNY TOPIC and lots of people say "I'd do this or that...Yeah Right there Chet...You have not a clue what you would do, likely wet yourself and then if you did use deadly force, sit and cry for a week (NOT TRYING TO BE FUNNY HERE...Being realistic.  Even a "righteous Shooting, will change you FOREVER)

There have been ZERO mass shootings in any place or venue where there was a high probibility that someone will stand up and fight back.  Those who would commit a mass shooting generally do not have the courage to face an armed opponent.

Political correctness is FOOLISH and Panders to the comfort of those that are looking to be coddled instead of growing up, growing a Sense of Humor and Putting on the Big Officer Pants.  Sorry if you want to cry about how Gun Control is a failure but could really work...IF....hommina=hommina-Wiff-Waff.

I will tell you that gun control ONLY works to disarm those that obey the law.  Yes, a Restraining order is effective, but a Restraining order, backed up by a .45 Automatic is WAY WAY WAY more effective.


While I certainly agree with everything you're saying, I do think you could have said all of that without it being bold, maybe you should use italics and underline it too for maximum effectiveness

I am sorry to have offended you by typing in Bold Face.  OOOPS.....By the way Cadet, let me say just what an honor it is to take constructive criticism from an expert of your caliber.  Maybe you should skip the sarcasm, it does not suit you as a cadet and you really are not very good at it.  I am not impressed. 
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Fubar
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« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2016, 05:17:22 AM »

1)  If you can legally carry a firearm by local and state law, then CAP should have no problem with a senior member DISCRETELY carrying a firearm to protect the Cadets, especially if there is a reason to concerned.  A TAC VEST and AR-15 is NOT what I mean.

Alas, CAPR 900-3 paragraph 1 has spoken:

Quote from: CAPR 900-3
1. Firearms. Civil Air Patrol members will not carry, wear or use firearms while engaged in
Civil Air Patrol activities. For purposes of this regulation a firearm is defined as any device
which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an
explosive, air or any other gas.

Seems pretty cut-and-dried. I get the position of HQ, they don't want to be legally held responsible for a CAP member's use, legal or otherwise, of a firearm. It won't keep them from getting sued (since there isn't much of a threshold on suing) but it gives them a pretty solid defense.

Additionally, if there is a reason to be concerned about the safety of the cadets, then you just blew ORM and the activity cannot go on.

As an aside, the bold hurts. It's obviously up to you, but I found it hard to read. YMMV.
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raivo
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« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2016, 05:25:16 AM »

I detect a political argument on the horizon...
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Iredell CAP
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2016, 05:28:24 AM »

I understand what 900-3 says.  I am saying that it is wrong and should be changed.  No one can predict an Active Shooter, if you could, then yep, ORM is on target.  But in an active shooter scenario, it is NOT predictable.  It is a growing and developing situation and should be something that is planned for, because as bad as it is, it happens.  Legal may run screaming into the woods about the sky falling because someone someplace might be offended...WOW, really, has America degenerated to the point that....Nevermind, I am answering my own question.

As for the bold typing, being new to the CAP talk, and not knowing how it appears to quote someone and then reply, I went to the bold to delineate the quote from my answer, again...OOOPS.
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Iredell CAP
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2016, 05:39:51 AM »

I detect a political argument on the horizon...

Not at all Sir.  In an argument, there is a chance of winning.  In this there is no possibility that the Legal Beagles at any level will put on the big boy pants and tell folks to grow up.  Arguing with Gun-Control advocates is like beating your head against a concrete wall...It is emotionally satisfying for a minute but generally leaves you with a headache and wishing that you could get that 30 minutes of your life back.

20 years ago no one had ever thought that a few freaks with some box cutters could hijack an airliner and start a world war, yet today in America you can not get on an airliner without nearly undressing at the TSA check point.  I have flown out of Germany, and Israel and guess what...you do not have to take off your shoes or belts, and they have no problem being Pro-Active to prevent a problem.  Have not seen an EL AL jet flown into a building of Lufthansa hijacked in a couple decades.  Political Correctness is poison and should be called as such.
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raivo
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« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2016, 06:31:37 AM »

Clairvoyance!
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lordmonar
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« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2016, 07:08:25 AM »

I understand what 900-3 says.  I am saying that it is wrong and should be changed.  No one can predict an Active Shooter, if you could, then yep, ORM is on target.  But in an active shooter scenario, it is NOT predictable.  It is a growing and developing situation and should be something that is planned for, because as bad as it is, it happens.  Legal may run screaming into the woods about the sky falling because someone someplace might be offended...WOW, really, has America degenerated to the point that....Nevermind, I am answering my own question.

As for the bold typing, being new to the CAP talk, and not knowing how it appears to quote someone and then reply, I went to the bold to delineate the quote from my answer, again...OOOPS.
On the surface I agree with you.

But....also.....having to deal with CAP members for the last 15 years.....I know that if CAP did not have 900-3 we would have a lot of problems.
Right now we got a lot of CAP members who just ignore the reg and keep it discrete and as far as I know we have not had any problems.   But the day 900-3 goes away is the day that "THAT GUY" is gonna show up to the SAREX with full battle rattle, k-pot and an AR15 with suppressor and bi-pod.

And don't be thinking I some gun controlling loony....I've got guns and and I'm working on my CCW (just as soon as I get a free weekend to take the farting class).

As a former commander I feel better to have the ability to say NO because I have the reg to back me up.....then have to go round and round with someone who does not under stand discretion, tact, public image, etc.

YMMV.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2016, 07:42:45 AM »

But the day 900-3 goes away is the day that "THAT GUY" is gonna show up to the SAREX with full battle rattle, k-pot and an AR15 with suppressor and bi-pod.


Or my personal favorite fear: Someone explaining to Base Security why the regs let him carry a gun...
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Fubar
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« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2016, 08:18:42 AM »

I understand what 900-3 says.  I am saying that it is wrong and should be changed.  No one can predict an Active Shooter, if you could, then yep, ORM is on target.  But in an active shooter scenario, it is NOT predictable.  It is a growing and developing situation and should be something that is planned for, because as bad as it is, it happens.  Legal may run screaming into the woods about the sky falling because someone someplace might be offended...WOW, really, has America degenerated to the point that....Nevermind, I am answering my own question.

Would you be willing to be personally responsible, both civilly and potentially criminally for the actions of what 32,000+ adults do with firearms? That's what you're asking the corporate officers of CAP, Inc. to do.

It's not so much the worry that someone will be offended, although that's certainly going to cause some lawsuits. Just search through the captalk archives for when this issue was previously debated, you'll see some scary comments from members on why they carry firearms against CAP regulations. I would personally be concerned for my safety to be in close proximity to some of those guys, not because firearms scare me, but firearms in the hands of morons scare me.

Quote
As for the bold typing, being new to the CAP talk, and not knowing how it appears to quote someone and then reply, I went to the bold to delineate the quote from my answer, again...OOOPS.

At least it wasn't a ND ;)
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NC Wing Range Master
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Iredell CAP
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2016, 02:29:58 PM »

Would you be willing to be personally responsible, both civilly and potentially criminally for the actions of what 32,000+ adults do with firearms? That's what you're asking the corporate officers of CAP, Inc. to do.

 not because firearms scare me, but firearms in the hands of morons scare me.


Again, I say that we abide by State Law.  Telling the Military Plolice that you have the right to yadd yadd...is just, well.....Stupid....MPs have no sense of humor on the gate.

The guy that looks like he is going out to Patrol Kandahar on a SAREX with a Suppressed SBR is NOT what we were talking about in the place.  But you are right, some legal owners should not be.  Stupid can cross that line, that is why I am very selective who I will allow in a class that I teach.
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« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2016, 03:12:42 PM »

If you have ever been to a SAREX or a real SAR.... the idea of many of those people carrying firearms would probably make me reconsider my involvement.  I think back to when I was heavily involved in CD.... there were a number of people who just really needed to not be involved.  Not for any legal reasons, but they had no concept for it.  Like the one observer who routinely photographed CBP helicopters and reported them or brought back photographs of white and blue AStar Helicopters.  Remember the "Counter Narcotics Flight Crew" shoulder patches?

The cadets who were traveling the highways with Tac Vests that said "Civil Air Patrol" pulling in behind motorists on the side of the road on the highway to render aid.  Fortunately none of them pulled in behind a fleeing felon.  I cant tell you how many disabled vehicles I have pulled in behind where the driver was eventually arrested.  CAP is very loosely regulated, Wings can often vary greatly in their standards despite the fact that we are all supposed to have one set of regs.  CCW laws vary greatly.  Some states have concealed and open carry. Some only allow Open Carry. What then?  Do CAP members open carry?  How do you do that in BDUs?  Shoulder holster?  Oh sweet baby jesus.....   I routinely come across legal CCW holders who have such a skewed view of what the law allows that is sad.  DO you know how many people Ive talked to in the last year who believe they have the right to shoot someone simply for trespassing on their property?  Id say 10.  And these are people who just start up conversations with me when they see me in public on duty.  And the majority of them even argue with me about the fact that I am the one who is wrong.

By carrying in CAP, you are an armed CAP member.  You arent a private citizen who is exercising their 2A rights.  How many discussions do we have routinely where people are told "You are representing CAP."  From simply wearing your uniform to school, being told you cant wear a particular military badge on your uniform to what patches you can wear on your flight suit.  Who is going to manage the CAP weapons holders?  Will there be a member who is responsible for insuring your CCW and your qualification card is up to date?  Will there be an E-Services page where you enter your CCW information like you do when you have an FAA medical or a flight review?   What about Wings where you can open carry with no permit?  So now instead of some sort of accountability now anyone in CAP in that wing can carry in their blackhawk shoulder rig?   Who enforces the standards for that wing?  The wing Sgt at Arms?  Will there be a standard list of firearms or can you carry anything from a Chinese Norinco to a Colt Python with an Aimpoint and a competition barrel?  If I have my Glock 17, can I carry 10 spare magazines on a bandoleer? 

People say follow state law.  Does that apply to reciprocity agreements?  So if FL Wing and TN Wing have reciprocity, can FL members carry in uniform in TN?  What happens when a CCW carrier is found to be out of compliance?  Does the SQ commander make a citizens arrest and call the police?  What disciplinary steps will be taken?  Do we not involve LE when there is a law broken?  Because mark my words, it will happen.  And it will happen often.  Will there be a provision that a CAP Commander can revoke or seize a members firearm while on duty should the commander see it necessary?   As a Sq. CC, I have revoked a members flying privileges.  Sure, I didtnt take action on their cert, but I did have the ability to stop them from flying CAP aircraft.  Will a commander have that right?  Or will their constitutional protections override CAP internal policies?   

Dont just flap your gums about carrying guns in CAP because its far more complex than just saying "Lets follow state law".  CAP absolutely takes responsibility and liability for members carrying guns on CAP time.
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