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Author Topic: Active shooter.  (Read 15080 times)
Flying Pig
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« on: December 26, 2015, 07:59:13 PM »

That discussion got locked?   Did I miss something?  Was it going bad?   For once in a very long while we managed to discuss an interesting topic.  Was it a bit to real world for CAPTalk?
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2015, 08:58:34 PM »

One of the moderators, Pace overreacted I think to comments that Arajca and me posted. He locked it.

We - Arajca and me - were trying to tone it down as it was getting a little out of control. Re-read his comments.

I do not take this thing too light. It is something that will affect me personally if it happens.

I had posted in a different thread that I am a school teacher in the Department of Education New York City, and we would be asked to lock the classroom, move students away from windows and doors. At the same time I am a squadron commander of a squadron that meets in a public high school.

Go figure. When others post here in response to a topic that I feel is out of hand, everyone jumps on me. When I try to tone down comments made by others, I am still jumped on! CAPTalk being a "place to exchange ideas, comments, etc?"

Not so.
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EMT-83
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« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2015, 09:26:33 PM »

Honestly, the entire forum is a shadow of its former self. I guess like CAP, it's cyclical and maybe the meaningful conversations will return.
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A.Member
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« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2015, 10:02:37 PM »

That discussion got locked?   Did I miss something?  Was it going bad?   For once in a very long while we managed to discuss an interesting topic.  Was it a bit to real world for CAPTalk?
Same question. 

Evidently the OP had enough feedback according to the mod and as a result the thread should be locked?!  ::)   If that's the threshold, then nearly all threads here can be locked and the site can be shut down.

Locking the thread was a serious over-reaction and a bit out of line by Pace.
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Holding Pattern
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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2015, 11:31:24 PM »

That discussion got locked?   Did I miss something?  Was it going bad?   For once in a very long while we managed to discuss an interesting topic.  Was it a bit to real world for CAPTalk?
Same question. 

Evidently the OP had enough feedback according to the mod and as a result the thread should be locked?!  ::)   If that's the threshold, then nearly all threads here can be locked and the site can be shut down.

Locking the thread was a serious over-reaction and a bit out of line by Pace.

Please read his entire post, specifically:
Quote
I am also not a fan of the ill-attempted humor over a subject that is a crippling reality in our society right now. For those whose lives have been affected or will be affected by mass violence, it's not funny.

Perhaps like in that thread, I'm in the minority again in agreeing that the "humor" in that thread was in poor form.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2015, 11:41:20 PM »

It's crippling our society, but we'll stop talking about it here because someone made a joke...
Got it. 
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Holding Pattern
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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2015, 11:42:54 PM »

There were a multitude of reasons given. I pointed out one other because people were focusing on one. That doesn't mean you then just focus on the new one pointed out.

Let the topic die.
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Pace
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« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2015, 12:26:10 AM »

Like so many other times over the last decade, this started with me receiving a complaint from a member about another member's comment. Like all times before, I quickly reviewed the posts in question and made a very quick review of the topic as a whole. I observed that there was a lack of professionalism in several of the comments. For a forum that is highly visible to a multitude of interested members, potential members, stakeholders, and parents, it is inappropriate to write comments, even light-heartedly, that are off-topic, divisive, and clearly intended as a sarcastic rant or humor in poor taste rather than a constructive addition to the topic at hand.


That being said, I actually do think that this is one of the most relevant threads I have seen in a long time. It's a shame that more than one of our members could not resist the urge to be unprofessional and off-topic. By that, I am referring to more than just the few posts that I originally addressed when I locked the thread.


You claim that I over-reacted and was out of line, and you mock what you perceive is political correctness. However, no one wants to take accountability for statements that were clearly not in line with the level of professional conduct that we expect from our leadership. Moderators exist to put an end to topics that have drifted off topic, have become inappropriate or unprofessional, are going in circles, or are otherwise violating the membership code of conduct. It is ultimately a subjective opinion of an admin or moderator when actions are taken on a thread based on the purpose of this site and the code that guides it. The previous thread was at several points off-topic and out of control. I ended it for that reason. You are welcome to continue the discussion here. If it stays on topic and does not become passive-aggressively hostile like the previous thread, it will likely continue without being locked.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2015, 07:59:03 AM »

I may be affected by the situation as I stated since I am a school teacher in a system that teaches not to aggressively react to the active shooter.

What do I do in that case? React the way I believe I should act and get fired for not following departmental policy?

Since my squadron meets at a public school, I have to uphold school policy.

I do not mind lessening the seriousness of this topic.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2015, 11:36:44 AM »

You don't mind lessening the seriousness of the topic?   Not sure what that means.   So because you are a school teacher this is hard for you to discuss?
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1st Lt Thompson
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« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2015, 12:27:28 PM »

I haven't read the entire previous post, so I apologize if I'm repeating anything anyone else said, just wanted to put in my .02.

The Commander of the Michigan National Guard recently had every member of the Guard go through Active Shooter training, and as a local journalist, I had the opportunity to attend. The training was very interesting, and included lots of facts and evidence, as well as listening to recordings and video of actual active shooter scenarios from surveillance cameras. There were things in that video that can't be unseen, the training was very eye opening.

I'll leave out all of the facts about gun free zones and other political topics, but the main point of the training is that the traditional "run and hide" mentality generally gets people killed during an actual active shooter scenario. In cases where the potential victims tried to fight back, the amount of casualties were greatly reduced. In the video, the school children hid under desks, and the shooters just walked around and taunted them before shooting them. Terror is a big part of the motive, and once you're pinned under a desk and the shooter is right in front of you, there is nowhere to run and hide. They literally made fun of them for hiding, made them cry even more, and then shot them anyway.

Personally, I've worked in places that mandated running and hiding in that situation. If I was ever actually in that situation, I would hope that I would have the sense to fight back, and take my chances with the boss later, rather than hiding and taking the chance at losing my life.

Where we meet for CAP, we are in a hangar at the airport. If a shooter came in, there wouldn't be many places to hide or escape, so fighting back would be the only option for survival.

CAP should have a policy in place, and we should do some sort of drills, the same way we do fire drills.

Just my 2 cents.
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1st Lt Matt Thompson
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LTC Don
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« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2015, 01:28:37 PM »

I like the concepts brought out in this video following San Bernardino--



Any video or statements or 'training' offered by 'official' sources from any of the three-letter agencies should be viewed with (severe) skepticism.  If someone like DHS comes out and says the Terror Threat Level is RED, you probably should have been in your bomb shelter the day before.  ::)
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2015, 02:05:44 PM »

Quote
Not sure what that means.   So because you are a school teacher this is hard for you to discuss?

No, it is not hard for me to discuss. That is why I can minimize the harsh sound of it.
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2015, 03:23:04 PM »

I like the concepts brought out in this video following San Bernardino--





LTC Don:  Thanks.  This is one of the better videos I've seen on this topic.

The Commander of the Michigan National Guard recently had every member of the Guard go through Active Shooter training, and as a local journalist, I had the opportunity to attend. The training was very interesting, and included lots of facts and evidence, as well as listening to recordings and video of actual active shooter scenarios from surveillance cameras. There were things in that video that can't be unseen, the training was very eye opening...


1st Lt. Thompson:

Thank you for your very interesting post. I clipped the central point for brevity, but found the entire post very interesting.

How much time was invested by the MNG in the AS training?  One day, two days, a few hours?  Over a series of scheduled meetings? Did you do scenario based role playing?  Where was the cadre drawn from?

Also, Thank you, FP, for re-opening this useful conversation.

FWIW, as the "OP" from the prior thread I am still researching ideas and formats for AST that we might use within our existing operations space (local and unit culture, meeting location rules, local laws, etc.). 

Also, FWIW, I think the brief discussion in the closed thread of San Francisco school teacher reactions to some aspects of training provided valuable insight into cultural issues that must be considered ahead of time when planning and presenting AST.



« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 03:55:37 PM by Live2Learn » Logged
jeders
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« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2015, 01:24:19 PM »

You don't mind lessening the seriousness of the topic?   Not sure what that means.   So because you are a school teacher this is hard for you to discuss?

I think what he meant, and I could be wrong, is that he doesn't mind the humor, even if it is a little off color, because it makes a very serious topic easier to discuss (we all process things differently).

I also think, and again I could be wrong, that his point about being a teacher was more to say that it is difficult to reconcile what is many times taught in active shooter training, that is to fight back when able, with district policy which is to not fight back. Because he is a teacher and they meet at a school in his district, he must therefore uphold district policy while at CAP, making it difficult to offer training which goes against said policy.

As a squadron commander, I think that this is an excellent idea for training, no matter who or where you are. To the OP: I'd like to see what you have planned when you're done with your research.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2015, 01:47:22 PM »

Ding Ding dinG!

 :clap:

We have a winner!

Jeders, thanks for stating my point of view.
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1st Lt Thompson
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« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2015, 03:18:29 PM »

Live2Learn,

The training was just one day, unfortunately no live drills it was mainly powerpoint presentations, videos and audio. Cadre consisted of NCO's from the Guard battalion, which is specifically an MP unit.

Interestingly, even though active duty military can't be armed while on base unless on duty and part of their position, in Michigan, National Guard and ANG members who are conceiled weapons holders can, and are encouraged to carry their own personal weapons at all times.

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1st Lt Matt Thompson
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2015, 03:19:29 PM »

So for those of you who are fans of the movie The Right Stuff... "So what Gus is trying to say is...."
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2015, 03:24:19 PM »

Flying-

What are ya sayin'?  Need a translator!

 >:D
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2016, 02:26:05 AM »

Tulalip, Washington experienced a tragic loss of life at the high school not very long ago.  This article is interesting in a couple of aspects:  http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2014/oct/25/teacher-tried-to-stop-washington-state-shooting/.  First, the article briefly mentions that it was 1st year teacher who confronted the shooter and probably prevented substantially greater loss of life.  And second, despite the number of students present, none engaged the shooter.  Students either ran in a panic or attempted to hide.  Not one student piled onto the shooter in support of the young woman who was wrestling for the pistol.  Why was that?
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lordmonar
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« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2016, 02:33:12 AM »

Fight or Flight.....we instinctively try to run to safety and only fight if we have to.

The concept of throwing yourself on a grenade is a high level learned behavior.
Most teenagers just have not learned it yet.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2016, 01:25:47 PM »

In the analysis of workplace violence, it is very clear that the best overall "strategy" to utilize is the proactive model. This does include fighting back of course, but the overall stat's are colored by a mass homicide some of you may recall a few years back in New York city. Running away as fast and as far as possible is also a valid proactive measure, and will generally give you about an 85% chance of surviving a serious workplace ( Which includes schools) situation in which lethality is predicted. The Twin Towers are a good example; those people who would and could get away survived at a greater rate than those who relied on the policies or instructions of authorities to "shelter in place". This leaves an unpleasant feeling in many rescuers minds, knowing that the slow, old, and handicapped will be likely to perish. Many of the people in my former profession went to work in schools as armed agents. During training, it became clear to many of them that a proactive armed response by a single agent may include having to allow hostage executions, bomb detonations, or having to shoot through children, in order to pick the optimal moment to intercede; a thought too grim for many to bear. The passive intercession by police, as demonstrated in Columbine, was in retrospect, a poor choice ( Inaction due to over-analysis)  and with a sufficient number of trained responders, the optimal approach is a rapid assault. The reality of police intercession, of course, is that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away...( Most schools not yet having an in-house fast reaction team) Like sudden cardiac death, the optimal response is early defibrillation, quickly dispatching School shooters is uncomfortable to many, but it beats the heck out of the alternatives.

Students are often, to put not too fine a point on it, feminized into inaction when faced with a threat. A recent example was a high school football player observing another student point a gun at another student on the school bus. The Football player slammed the armed student to the floor. In this case, the school system's "Zero Tolerance" decided that the gunman, the football player, and the victim, had all been involved in a "Gun related incident" and all were expelled, leaving a permanent stain on the records of a couple of kids, one of whom should have gotten a Medal (in my opinion). Many, if not most School shootings would end quite quickly if the "Alpha Males" in the herd had not been  "fixed" by the veterinary practices of public education. The same is true of what we call "bullying". Students are not permitted to intercede in cases of the strong humiliating and dominating the weak ( Other than by filing a report with the administration, which does nothing generally other than exacerbating the situation
with "attitude adjustment seminars for all) The number of criminal cases arising from students being bullied until someone escalates the situation to serious violence is staggering, although I don't have anything other than anecdotal evidence to support this, I daresay that most people here can remember their elementary and high school days and will concur.

In point of fact, the actual numbers of people killed in actual mass shootings has declined. D.O.J. "studies" often conflate any shooting with multiple parties involved as "Mass Shootings". This would include, for example, two Police Officers shooting two evil-doers as a "Multiple shooting involving 4 persons" so the "facts" tend to be difficult to pull from the reportage. Another instance of dubious classification is "Firearms-related Death". About half of all death by firearms is a result of including suicides, largely in the middle-age to late-life white population. These deaths, that in the absence of firearms, may have been slightly reduced, but hardly eliminated. The statistical evidence we see is largely intended to muddy, rather than clarify, the actual risk of workplace violence. Allowing students to be armed in College is a far cry from allowing students to be armed in elementary or high school, but allowing armed teachers, properly licensed to carry firearms, has generally proven to be a sound strategy ( Even though I personally think most public school teachers are not by temperament well suited for armed intervention, i.e., they are liberal pacifists..except maybe in Texas!)

Any healthy person who has seen the violent death of a child is damaged in the process. In public view, professionals ( And here I optimistically hope to include my CAP Brethren) do not make jokes about such things. Among ourselves, we may use dark humor to help wipe away the darkness that would or could otherwise grow in our souls, as a means of discharging the pain. It's better than drugs or alcohol, and, but is must be kept among our own people, those who can actually relate in a more-than-theoretical way. In much the same way that tears are liquid stress overflowing from our bodies, humor, even off-color, is our human way of reducing the pain, and there is nothing wrong with it: In the right place, with the right people. Just not in a public forum.
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Spam
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« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2016, 01:58:16 PM »

That's one of the most thoughtful and best constructed posts I've seen on CAPTALK, or on any forum, in a long time. Thanks much.

Very Respectfully
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2016, 02:06:45 PM »

In the analysis of workplace violence, it is very clear that the best overall "strategy" to utilize is the proactive model.... Any healthy person who has seen the violent death of a child is damaged in the process. In public view, professionals ( And here I optimistically hope to include my CAP Brethren) do not make jokes about such things. Among ourselves, we may use dark humor to help wipe away the darkness that would or could otherwise grow in our souls, as a means of discharging the pain. It's better than drugs or alcohol, and, but is must be kept among our own people, those who can actually relate in a more-than-theoretical way. In much the same way that tears are liquid stress overflowing from our bodies, humor, even off-color, is our human way of reducing the pain, and there is nothing wrong with it: In the right place, with the right people. Just not in a public forum.

From start to summary, thoughtful and helpful.

Thanks
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CAPDCCMOM
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« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2016, 02:12:24 PM »

I work in the Education arena. We have a yearly "Active Shooter" training and, at some point, an "Active Shooter Drill". I wish that my fellow "professionals" would start to take it seriously. As much as i hate to say it, it is not a question of if, but a question of when. How will I react on that day with a room full of students? Will I be a hero, or will I evacuate my students as quickly as I can praying for my own survival. These are the questions I think of very often. My husband has made me promise that I will not play hero and get my self to safety to live another day. I am surrounded by the liberal fuzzie wuzzies. I hear in the staff room of the evil of firearms. I frequently remind them, that when their home is broken into and their lives are threatened that they will call some one with a firearm. To all with a Law Enforcement background, this is one from the Education arena, broken as it is, that says "THANK YOU"
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 02:19:18 PM by CAPDCCMOM » Logged
Cliff_Chambliss
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« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2016, 11:19:54 AM »

We have been giving this a lot of thought of late and come up with several points/ideas which may or may not be useful.
During my Army days (Armored Cavalry) the training (and actual in Vietnam) was always attack the ambusher.  Trying to run-hide-escape generally did not work as well as attacking the attacker either killing them or forcing them to break contact.  Taking this forward in an active shooter situation it would seem the best option would be to attack.
Several of us tried an experiment of sorts.  Using paintball guns and a simulated active shooter situation we learned:
1.  In the attack do not attack straight on if it can be avoided.
2.  Keep moving side to side and if the shooter is using a handgun most shooters have a more difficult time hitting a target moving to their weaker side (Side away from the gun holding hand).
3.  A "war cry" is in order.
Our experiments were conducted in a rather open warehouse environment and would be difficult in a classroom setting and almost impossible in a theater.  Therefore it seems the best answer is still concealed carry and frequent practice and proficiency.  We admit our "experiment" is purely unscientific and reflect only our personal biases.

Related note:  A couple days ago three local fast food places were robbed by a 19 year old armed with an SKS Rifle.  In one a customer was shot in the face and killed because he was too slow in dropping to the floor.  In another, when he burst in and ordered everyone to the floor "an elderly patron" pulled his concealed handgun and fired one round towards the would be robber who then fled.  The Chief of Police is calling the customer a hero and saying publically he possibly prevented a repeat of the earlier shooting.  again, attack the attacker if you can't ambush him.
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« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2016, 11:42:58 AM »

All this is all well and good. However, the only actions I anticipate happening on my end is the following:

1. Hear gunshots.
2. Soil myself.
3. Run and hide.
4. Have a humiliating panic attack under a desk.

I don't really seeing me being the hero type, honestly.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2016, 11:54:17 AM »

All this is all well and good. However, the only actions I anticipate happening on my end is the following:

1. Hear gunshots.
2. Soil myself.
3. Run and hide.
4. Have a humiliating panic attack under a desk.

I don't really seeing me being the hero type, honestly.

Bravely run away. Period.
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Garibaldi
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« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2016, 11:59:46 AM »

All this is all well and good. However, the only actions I anticipate happening on my end is the following:

1. Hear gunshots.
2. Soil myself.
3. Run and hide.
4. Have a humiliating panic attack under a desk.

I don't really seeing me being the hero type, honestly.


Bravely run away. Period.

I even have a song.

MINSTREL: Brave Sir Robin ran away

ROBIN: No!

MINSTREL (singing): Bravely ran away away

ROBIN: I didn't!

MINSTREL (singing): When danger reared its ugly head, He bravely turned his tail and fled

ROBIN: No!

MINSTREL (singing): Yes Brave Sir Robin turned about

ROBIN: I didn't!

MINSTREL (singing): And gallantly he chickened out Bravely taking to his feet

ROBIN: I never did!

MINSTREL (singing): He beat a very brave retreat

ROBIN: Oh, lies!

MINSTREL (singing): Bravest of the brave Sir Robin

ROBIN: I never!

MINSTREL (singing): Packing it in and packing it up
And sneaking away and buggering off
And chickening out and p***ing off home
Yes, bravely he is throwing in the sponge
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Paul_AK
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« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2016, 12:04:52 PM »

Fight or Flight.....we instinctively try to run to safety and only fight if we have to.

The concept of throwing yourself on a grenade is a high level learned behavior.
Most teenagers just have not learned it yet.
I have heard it stated many times, and experienced it on a few occasions, that you do not rise to the occasion you fall to your highest level of training.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2016, 02:10:21 PM »

I work in the Education arena. We have a yearly "Active Shooter" training and, at some point, an "Active Shooter Drill". I wish that my fellow "professionals" would start to take it seriously. As much as i hate to say it, it is not a question of if, but a question of when. How will I react on that day with a room full of students? Will I be a hero, or will I evacuate my students as quickly as I can praying for my own survival. These are the questions I think of very often. My husband has made me promise that I will not play hero and get my self to safety to live another day. I am surrounded by the liberal fuzzie wuzzies. I hear in the staff room of the evil of firearms. I frequently remind them, that when their home is broken into and their lives are threatened that they will call some one with a firearm. To all with a Law Enforcement background, this is one from the Education arena, broken as it is, that says "THANK YOU"


https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2014/september/fbi-releases-study-on-active-shooter-incidents/pdfs/a-study-of-active-shooter-incidents-in-the-u.s.-between-2000-and-2013


https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=84


I'd say you're well off base with the fear.
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CAPDCCMOM
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Posts: 244

« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2016, 02:41:05 PM »

Not fear Capt. Well placed realism. I have the unique distinction that I have disarmed three students. I break up fights regularly. My students know that I am the "Safe" person at school. I know how many of these kids are on an ankle bracelet. I speak with the JPO's. We have seized guns and drugs from student cars. The parent sell and deal.

Call me a coward if you like Sir, the Gorgon opened my eyes.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2016, 05:01:18 PM »

"Its not a matter of if, but a question of when"  is a mindset.  Not a fear.   I go to work everyday with that mindset, every time I get in an aircraft I tell myself, "today is the day".  Every time I go into a hole to get water for a fire I tell myself "This is where your engine fails."  Every time I set up for an orbit at night on NVGs I tell myself "This will be the orbit when it happens."  Every time I do a traffic stop I tell myself "This is the stop that ends bad."   No, Im not all stressed out but most everything I do that has an associated risk of a bad outcome usually has a plan for that bad outcome.  I could care less about any stats someone pulls off the internet.   For anyone who knows me... Im well beyond what the stats suggest for my profession.  No sense other people shouldn't do the same thing.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 05:17:21 PM by Flying Pig » Logged
ALORD
Member

Posts: 73
Unit: PCR-CA-123

« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2016, 05:19:35 PM »

There is not a thing wrong with running away from a threat ( Although I personally like to think of it as a "retrograde maneuver" even if it is accompanied by screaming like a little girl and waving your hands frantically in the air) Hiding after moving away from a threat also may be wise in many situations. Distance =time, and time provides the possibility to recapture the tactical advantage. I am not sure that soiling  one's trousers would be a sound survival technique, but it must be one of nature's or God's gifts to us, because someone trying to kill you in earnest causes just that reaction in a great many people. Actually experiencing the phenomenon known as beings "Scared-S******" is something you will never forget. It has the advantage, though, of making the sky seem just a little bluer, the grass a bit greener, and the taste of clean water a nearly religious experience. You could make a career out of studying survival tactics. As one person noted here, attacking is generally a better solution than breaking and running ( In ambush)  and another wise person pointed out moving to the armed gunman's weak side to lower the chances of getting shot. Most people will be frozen into immobility. Teaching people to immediately counter-attack a threat takes time and effort, and even then, the training is often abandoned when the wheels come off the bus. Since specifics have been brought up, I thought I would add my own two cents to the tactical picture. If bad guys are armed with handguns, and a group rushes them, some of the counter-attackers may be shot, but it is important to remember that MOST people shot with handguns do not die as a result of their wounds. ( A recent case in point is the Philadelphia policeman shot repeatedly at close range who then jumped out of his car, and chased down and shot the terrorist shooter) Television teaches us to fall down and die when someone shoots us, but this is just conditioning, even after being shot, especially with a handgun, you may still be able to run and/or fight. I dare venture that some of you out there have experienced varying degrees of what we call "being shot" , from fragments pinging your face to the full Monty thoracic gunshot, and lived to tell about it.

 This is less true of those shot with centerfire rifles and shotguns, but even then, a close proximity counter-attack by as large a force as possible provides the best chance of individual survival. A guy armed with an AK-47 in an elevator is not going to fair well if the elevator is filled with highly motivated and ruthless counter-attackers. School shootings, like Stockton on the one in Scotland, where a shooter stays back at a distance and shoots into a crowd are fortunately quite rare. ( As fortunately, school shootings in general are as well) Most are close quarters encounters.
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Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,043

« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2016, 05:28:50 PM »

Simply put, for most people, running is the best option.  Unless you train, condition and have the mindset needed the vast majority of people are not wired to counter assault a gunman.  I tell my kids never let anyone lock you down.  Run.  The odds of getting a group to counter attack with you isn't even a viable option unless you are actually trapped. But even then, people have been trapped together before and were executed 1 at a time while everyone else watched and knew their turn was coming.  Few people are fortunate enough to comment on active shooter from the stand point of having ever confronted one.  Unless you have a gun, run and take people with you  If you get trapped... hit the person or do whatever you can.  You may luck out and make it through.
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Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 644

« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2016, 05:37:23 PM »

"Its not a matter of if, but a question of when"  is a mindset.  Not a fear.   I go to work everyday with that mindset, every time I get in an aircraft I tell myself, "today is the day".  Every time I go into a hole to get water for a fire I tell myself "This is where your engine fails."  Every time I set up for an orbit at night on NVGs I tell myself "This will be the orbit when it happens."  Every time I do a traffic stop I tell myself "This is the stop that ends bad."   No, Im not all stressed out but most everything I do that has an associated risk of a bad outcome usually has a plan for that bad outcome.  I could care less about any stats someone pulls off the internet.   For anyone who knows me... Im well beyond what the stats suggest for my profession.  No sense other people shouldn't do the same thing.

Preparedness is a healthy perspective.  It's akin to "situational awareness". 

FWIW, a couple of years ago I listened to the Dir of Safety for one of the larger civilian aviation humanitarian organizations.  His organization operates several hundred aircraft all over the world in over 50 countries.  They fly into every imaginable airstrip, and some that only barely meet that definition.  He spoke of how his organization cut the rate of fatal and serious accidents to very close to none from a big number in about 15 years.  His "secret" sauce?  Be prepared with prior knowledge and training, be situationally aware, be psychologically prepared to act:  1) memorize and rehearse emergency procedures weekly - at least in the minds eye; 2) establish clearly defined, known trigger points for abort/go around for every high risk operation; 3) for every flight employ thorough, detailed, pre-flight procedures; 4) assume every operation will have something potentially disastrous and unexpected occur... something like a kid running across the runway just before rotation or an abnormal engine or control indication; 5) being extremely pleased when everything works out as it's "supposed to", while being ready and in the frame of mind to implement emergency procedures when the indications line up...
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2016, 05:43:33 PM »

I do it regularly when I fly.  I can sometimes spend a couple hrs flying in a circle.  Usually within the first couple orbits I have all the LZs ID'd that I could auto into.   

There is a quote that has been used in police training for probably the last 30+ years.  "Conduct every traffic stop extending the olive branch of peace while having a tactical plan to kill everyone in the vehicle."    You dont have to like it, but thats how real life works. 
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Live2Learn
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Posts: 644

« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2016, 06:19:02 PM »

Several people who I've PM'd with asked for an update on how and what we did with the Active Shooter Training.  The short answer is we haven't.  The question of whether we could do it was sent to the Wing Legal Officer, who bumped it to the OGC at National.  In a nutshell, we were advised we couldn't talk about this topic unless we had the Wing Commander's permission.  It's still not clear whether that would be forthcoming.  If this is such a controversial topic, perhaps CAP Safety might take the lead and get something together that is "approved", "sanctioned", and "OK" to use.  A lot of the discussion seems to be over whether or not to suggest anything other than escape or hide.  The "L" word (liability) seems to have garnered a lot of attention from National and Wing.

Dunno where this will wind up.  I'm moving on.
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Flying Pig
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Posts: 5,043

« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2016, 11:51:21 AM »

One of the biggest issues with CAP for something like this is the vast majority of people you are running this through for permission have no background in it.  So instead of saying "Im running this by the Wing Commander", if you say "Im running this by Joe, who is a 65yr old grocery store manager" it makes more sense why these things never go anywhere.  Your commanders know nothing about it and they wouldn't even know where to start. 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 12:01:51 PM by Flying Pig » Logged
kirbahashi
Member

Posts: 55

« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2016, 01:44:37 PM »

Several people who I've PM'd with asked for an update on how and what we did with the Active Shooter Training.  The short answer is we haven't.  The question of whether we could do it was sent to the Wing Legal Officer, who bumped it to the OGC at National.  In a nutshell, we were advised we couldn't talk about this topic unless we had the Wing Commander's permission. ...

Then this needs to be codified or National needs to get off its' butt and put something out!  Passing the buck only to pass the buck again is weak leadership.  We are not teaching brain surgery.  We would be providing information that has already been scripted by knowledgeable agencies.  Information and tactics that are endorsed by Government Administrators and Chiefs of Police throughout this country...  When I give a lightening safety brief, I am not telling them they must run to safety, I am telling them what they could do to increase their odds of survival. 


One of the biggest issues with CAP for something like this is the vast majority of people you are running this through for permission have no background in it.  So instead of saying "Im running this by the Wing Commander", if you say "Im running this by Joe, who is a 65yr old grocery store manager" it makes more sense why these things never go anywhere.  Your commanders know nothing about it and they wouldn't even know where to start.

Preach!

I am sure if we needed a limited-in-scope uniform test wear approval, that would be no issue.

Seriously... This must be how we win wars!
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THRAWN
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« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2016, 03:11:08 PM »

Ignoring an issue will make it go away. Semper Ostrich...
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Strup
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Posts: 244

« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2016, 03:12:04 PM »

Or Just continue to throw money at it^^^^^
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THRAWN
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Posts: 1,871

« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2016, 03:21:56 PM »

Or Just continue to throw money at it^^^^^

Passing the buck is not throwing money. The administrative square dance will continue until someone gets hurt. Part of the issue of National trying to develop and mandate a blanket policy is that it may conflict with local host installation policies. By way of example, I am a former member of 4 different squadrons. Each met in different facilities, and each had varying policies for security incidents. If National was smart, they would issue some kind of statement that say to the effect "If this happens, follow host installation procedures". Those procedures should also be mandatory annual inspection items, and a copy of the policy should be on hand and drilled, much like fire drills. Trying to mandate a one size approach from Maxwell just is not going to work.
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Strup
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NC Hokie
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Posts: 912
Unit: MER-NC-057

« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2016, 03:28:29 PM »

Several people who I've PM'd with asked for an update on how and what we did with the Active Shooter Training.  The short answer is we haven't.  The question of whether we could do it was sent to the Wing Legal Officer, who bumped it to the OGC at National.  In a nutshell, we were advised we couldn't talk about this topic unless we had the Wing Commander's permission.  It's still not clear whether that would be forthcoming.  If this is such a controversial topic, perhaps CAP Safety might take the lead and get something together that is "approved", "sanctioned", and "OK" to use.  A lot of the discussion seems to be over whether or not to suggest anything other than escape or hide.  The "L" word (liability) seems to have garnered a lot of attention from National and Wing.

Dunno where this will wind up.  I'm moving on.
Page 10 of the April 2015 Safety Beacon might be helpful:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/April_Safety_Beacon_2015___adobe__f_96B37CCBE5EE1.pdf
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NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 644

« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2016, 04:32:16 AM »

Several people who I've PM'd with asked for an update on how and what we did with the Active Shooter Training.  The short answer is we haven't.  The question of whether we could do it was sent to the Wing Legal Officer, who bumped it to the OGC at National.  In a nutshell, we were advised we couldn't talk about this topic unless we had the Wing Commander's permission.  It's still not clear whether that would be forthcoming.  If this is such a controversial topic, perhaps CAP Safety might take the lead and get something together that is "approved", "sanctioned", and "OK" to use.  A lot of the discussion seems to be over whether or not to suggest anything other than escape or hide.  The "L" word (liability) seems to have garnered a lot of attention from National and Wing.

Dunno where this will wind up.  I'm moving on.
Page 10 of the April 2015 Safety Beacon might be helpful:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/April_Safety_Beacon_2015___adobe__f_96B37CCBE5EE1.pdf


VERY helpful.  Thanks.
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LSThiker
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Posts: 1,830
Unit: Earth

« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2016, 02:19:37 PM »

Look at page 7 of this month's safety beacon:

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/February_Safety_Beacon_2016__final__06906E307868E.pdf
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Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 644

« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2016, 07:04:03 PM »

Look at page 7 of this month's safety beacon:

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/February_Safety_Beacon_2016__final__06906E307868E.pdf

Thanks.

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NC Wing Range Master
Recruit

Posts: 26
Unit: MER-NC-162

Iredell CAP
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2016, 12:29:24 AM »

I may be affected by the situation as I stated since I am a school teacher in a system that teaches not to aggressively react to the active shooter.

What do I do in that case? React the way I believe I should act and get fired for not following departmental policy?

Since my squadron meets at a public school, I have to uphold school policy.

I do not mind lessening the seriousness of this topic.

I am new to the Topic and the Forum as a whole.  I am also a professional firearms instructor, both military and civilian and would like to weigh in on the issue.
I am in North Carolina, called by some "the Patron State of Shootin' Stuff."  Many of our citizens, myself included are LEGAL Concealed Carry permit holders.  I feel that the following is true:

1)  If you can legally carry a firearm by local and state law, then CAP should have no problem with a senior member DISCRETELY carrying a firearm to protect the Cadets, especially if there is a reason to concerned.  A TAC VEST and AR-15 is NOT what I mean.
2)  If someone is going to commit a crime with a gun, and have mentally made the choice to cross that line, No Sign, No Policy, No request, no Prohibition on weapons is going to stop that individual.
3)  One armed, permitted AND WELL TRAINED teacher or volunteer parent could have STOPPED New Town, Columbine, and Virginia Tech.
4)  WISHING that we were a Gun Free Society, and Hoping to appeal to the good-nature of bad people is like burying your head in the sand.
5)  Deadly Force is NOT A FUNNY TOPIC and lots of people say "I'd do this or that...Yeah Right there Chet...You have not a clue what you would do, likely wet yourself and then if you did use deadly force, sit and cry for a week (NOT TRYING TO BE FUNNY HERE...Being realistic.  Even a "righteous Shooting, will change you FOREVER)

There have been ZERO mass shootings in any place or venue where there was a high probibility that someone will stand up and fight back.  Those who would commit a mass shooting generally do not have the courage to face an armed opponent.

Political correctness is FOOLISH and Panders to the comfort of those that are looking to be coddled instead of growing up, growing a Sense of Humor and Putting on the Big Officer Pants.  Sorry if you want to cry about how Gun Control is a failure but could really work...IF....hommina=hommina-Wiff-Waff.

I will tell you that gun control ONLY works to disarm those that obey the law.  Yes, a Restraining order is effective, but a Restraining order, backed up by a .45 Automatic is WAY WAY WAY more effective.
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1Lt Roger C. Ayscue, CAP
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Toth
Member

Posts: 59

« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2016, 12:47:41 AM »

I may be affected by the situation as I stated since I am a school teacher in a system that teaches not to aggressively react to the active shooter.

What do I do in that case? React the way I believe I should act and get fired for not following departmental policy?

Since my squadron meets at a public school, I have to uphold school policy.

I do not mind lessening the seriousness of this topic.

I am new to the Topic and the Forum as a whole.  I am also a professional firearms instructor, both military and civilian and would like to weigh in on the issue.
I am in North Carolina, called by some "the Patron State of Shootin' Stuff."  Many of our citizens, myself included are LEGAL Concealed Carry permit holders.  I feel that the following is true:

1)  If you can legally carry a firearm by local and state law, then CAP should have no problem with a senior member DISCRETELY carrying a firearm to protect the Cadets, especially if there is a reason to concerned.  A TAC VEST and AR-15 is NOT what I mean.
2)  If someone is going to commit a crime with a gun, and have mentally made the choice to cross that line, No Sign, No Policy, No request, no Prohibition on weapons is going to stop that individual.
3)  One armed, permitted AND WELL TRAINED teacher or volunteer parent could have STOPPED New Town, Columbine, and Virginia Tech.
4)  WISHING that we were a Gun Free Society, and Hoping to appeal to the good-nature of bad people is like burying your head in the sand.
5)  Deadly Force is NOT A FUNNY TOPIC and lots of people say "I'd do this or that...Yeah Right there Chet...You have not a clue what you would do, likely wet yourself and then if you did use deadly force, sit and cry for a week (NOT TRYING TO BE FUNNY HERE...Being realistic.  Even a "righteous Shooting, will change you FOREVER)

There have been ZERO mass shootings in any place or venue where there was a high probibility that someone will stand up and fight back.  Those who would commit a mass shooting generally do not have the courage to face an armed opponent.

Political correctness is FOOLISH and Panders to the comfort of those that are looking to be coddled instead of growing up, growing a Sense of Humor and Putting on the Big Officer Pants.  Sorry if you want to cry about how Gun Control is a failure but could really work...IF....hommina=hommina-Wiff-Waff.

I will tell you that gun control ONLY works to disarm those that obey the law.  Yes, a Restraining order is effective, but a Restraining order, backed up by a .45 Automatic is WAY WAY WAY more effective.


While I certainly agree with everything you're saying, I do think you could have said all of that without it being bold, maybe you should use italics and underline it too for maximum effectiveness
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C/Capt Toth Mendius, CAP
Vice Chair, RMR CAC
Mitchell #65174, Earhart #17361
GES, ♦ICUT, ♦FLM, GTM3, UDF, SET, MS, MRO, EMT, *GTM2
NC Wing Range Master
Recruit

Posts: 26
Unit: MER-NC-162

Iredell CAP
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2016, 12:59:27 AM »

I may be affected by the situation as I stated since I am a school teacher in a system that teaches not to aggressively react to the active shooter.

What do I do in that case? React the way I believe I should act and get fired for not following departmental policy?

Since my squadron meets at a public school, I have to uphold school policy.

I do not mind lessening the seriousness of this topic.

I am new to the Topic and the Forum as a whole.  I am also a professional firearms instructor, both military and civilian and would like to weigh in on the issue.
I am in North Carolina, called by some "the Patron State of Shootin' Stuff."  Many of our citizens, myself included are LEGAL Concealed Carry permit holders.  I feel that the following is true:

1)  If you can legally carry a firearm by local and state law, then CAP should have no problem with a senior member DISCRETELY carrying a firearm to protect the Cadets, especially if there is a reason to concerned.  A TAC VEST and AR-15 is NOT what I mean.
2)  If someone is going to commit a crime with a gun, and have mentally made the choice to cross that line, No Sign, No Policy, No request, no Prohibition on weapons is going to stop that individual.
3)  One armed, permitted AND WELL TRAINED teacher or volunteer parent could have STOPPED New Town, Columbine, and Virginia Tech.
4)  WISHING that we were a Gun Free Society, and Hoping to appeal to the good-nature of bad people is like burying your head in the sand.
5)  Deadly Force is NOT A FUNNY TOPIC and lots of people say "I'd do this or that...Yeah Right there Chet...You have not a clue what you would do, likely wet yourself and then if you did use deadly force, sit and cry for a week (NOT TRYING TO BE FUNNY HERE...Being realistic.  Even a "righteous Shooting, will change you FOREVER)

There have been ZERO mass shootings in any place or venue where there was a high probibility that someone will stand up and fight back.  Those who would commit a mass shooting generally do not have the courage to face an armed opponent.

Political correctness is FOOLISH and Panders to the comfort of those that are looking to be coddled instead of growing up, growing a Sense of Humor and Putting on the Big Officer Pants.  Sorry if you want to cry about how Gun Control is a failure but could really work...IF....hommina=hommina-Wiff-Waff.

I will tell you that gun control ONLY works to disarm those that obey the law.  Yes, a Restraining order is effective, but a Restraining order, backed up by a .45 Automatic is WAY WAY WAY more effective.


While I certainly agree with everything you're saying, I do think you could have said all of that without it being bold, maybe you should use italics and underline it too for maximum effectiveness

I am sorry to have offended you by typing in Bold Face.  OOOPS.....By the way Cadet, let me say just what an honor it is to take constructive criticism from an expert of your caliber.  Maybe you should skip the sarcasm, it does not suit you as a cadet and you really are not very good at it.  I am not impressed. 
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AIRBORNE!  ALL THE WAY
1Lt Roger C. Ayscue, CAP
MER-NC-162 CDC
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 689

« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2016, 01:17:22 AM »

1)  If you can legally carry a firearm by local and state law, then CAP should have no problem with a senior member DISCRETELY carrying a firearm to protect the Cadets, especially if there is a reason to concerned.  A TAC VEST and AR-15 is NOT what I mean.

Alas, CAPR 900-3 paragraph 1 has spoken:

Quote from: CAPR 900-3
1. Firearms. Civil Air Patrol members will not carry, wear or use firearms while engaged in
Civil Air Patrol activities. For purposes of this regulation a firearm is defined as any device
which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an
explosive, air or any other gas.

Seems pretty cut-and-dried. I get the position of HQ, they don't want to be legally held responsible for a CAP member's use, legal or otherwise, of a firearm. It won't keep them from getting sued (since there isn't much of a threshold on suing) but it gives them a pretty solid defense.

Additionally, if there is a reason to be concerned about the safety of the cadets, then you just blew ORM and the activity cannot go on.

As an aside, the bold hurts. It's obviously up to you, but I found it hard to read. YMMV.
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raivo
Seasoned Member

Posts: 442
Unit: Migrant

« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2016, 01:25:16 AM »

I detect a political argument on the horizon...
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1Lt, CAP
Capt, USAF
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NC Wing Range Master
Recruit

Posts: 26
Unit: MER-NC-162

Iredell CAP
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2016, 01:28:24 AM »

I understand what 900-3 says.  I am saying that it is wrong and should be changed.  No one can predict an Active Shooter, if you could, then yep, ORM is on target.  But in an active shooter scenario, it is NOT predictable.  It is a growing and developing situation and should be something that is planned for, because as bad as it is, it happens.  Legal may run screaming into the woods about the sky falling because someone someplace might be offended...WOW, really, has America degenerated to the point that....Nevermind, I am answering my own question.

As for the bold typing, being new to the CAP talk, and not knowing how it appears to quote someone and then reply, I went to the bold to delineate the quote from my answer, again...OOOPS.
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1Lt Roger C. Ayscue, CAP
MER-NC-162 CDC
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NC Wing Range Master
Recruit

Posts: 26
Unit: MER-NC-162

Iredell CAP
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2016, 01:39:51 AM »

I detect a political argument on the horizon...

Not at all Sir.  In an argument, there is a chance of winning.  In this there is no possibility that the Legal Beagles at any level will put on the big boy pants and tell folks to grow up.  Arguing with Gun-Control advocates is like beating your head against a concrete wall...It is emotionally satisfying for a minute but generally leaves you with a headache and wishing that you could get that 30 minutes of your life back.

20 years ago no one had ever thought that a few freaks with some box cutters could hijack an airliner and start a world war, yet today in America you can not get on an airliner without nearly undressing at the TSA check point.  I have flown out of Germany, and Israel and guess what...you do not have to take off your shoes or belts, and they have no problem being Pro-Active to prevent a problem.  Have not seen an EL AL jet flown into a building of Lufthansa hijacked in a couple decades.  Political Correctness is poison and should be called as such.
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raivo
Seasoned Member

Posts: 442
Unit: Migrant

« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2016, 02:31:37 AM »

Clairvoyance!
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1Lt, CAP
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,649

« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2016, 03:08:25 AM »

I understand what 900-3 says.  I am saying that it is wrong and should be changed.  No one can predict an Active Shooter, if you could, then yep, ORM is on target.  But in an active shooter scenario, it is NOT predictable.  It is a growing and developing situation and should be something that is planned for, because as bad as it is, it happens.  Legal may run screaming into the woods about the sky falling because someone someplace might be offended...WOW, really, has America degenerated to the point that....Nevermind, I am answering my own question.

As for the bold typing, being new to the CAP talk, and not knowing how it appears to quote someone and then reply, I went to the bold to delineate the quote from my answer, again...OOOPS.
On the surface I agree with you.

But....also.....having to deal with CAP members for the last 15 years.....I know that if CAP did not have 900-3 we would have a lot of problems.
Right now we got a lot of CAP members who just ignore the reg and keep it discrete and as far as I know we have not had any problems.   But the day 900-3 goes away is the day that "THAT GUY" is gonna show up to the SAREX with full battle rattle, k-pot and an AR15 with suppressor and bi-pod.

And don't be thinking I some gun controlling loony....I've got guns and and I'm working on my CCW (just as soon as I get a free weekend to take the farting class).

As a former commander I feel better to have the ability to say NO because I have the reg to back me up.....then have to go round and round with someone who does not under stand discretion, tact, public image, etc.

YMMV.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Holding Pattern
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Posts: 1,272
Unit: Worry

« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2016, 03:42:45 AM »

But the day 900-3 goes away is the day that "THAT GUY" is gonna show up to the SAREX with full battle rattle, k-pot and an AR15 with suppressor and bi-pod.


Or my personal favorite fear: Someone explaining to Base Security why the regs let him carry a gun...
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 689

« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2016, 04:18:42 AM »

I understand what 900-3 says.  I am saying that it is wrong and should be changed.  No one can predict an Active Shooter, if you could, then yep, ORM is on target.  But in an active shooter scenario, it is NOT predictable.  It is a growing and developing situation and should be something that is planned for, because as bad as it is, it happens.  Legal may run screaming into the woods about the sky falling because someone someplace might be offended...WOW, really, has America degenerated to the point that....Nevermind, I am answering my own question.

Would you be willing to be personally responsible, both civilly and potentially criminally for the actions of what 32,000+ adults do with firearms? That's what you're asking the corporate officers of CAP, Inc. to do.

It's not so much the worry that someone will be offended, although that's certainly going to cause some lawsuits. Just search through the captalk archives for when this issue was previously debated, you'll see some scary comments from members on why they carry firearms against CAP regulations. I would personally be concerned for my safety to be in close proximity to some of those guys, not because firearms scare me, but firearms in the hands of morons scare me.

Quote
As for the bold typing, being new to the CAP talk, and not knowing how it appears to quote someone and then reply, I went to the bold to delineate the quote from my answer, again...OOOPS.

At least it wasn't a ND ;)
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NC Wing Range Master
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Unit: MER-NC-162

Iredell CAP
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2016, 10:29:58 AM »

Would you be willing to be personally responsible, both civilly and potentially criminally for the actions of what 32,000+ adults do with firearms? That's what you're asking the corporate officers of CAP, Inc. to do.

 not because firearms scare me, but firearms in the hands of morons scare me.


Again, I say that we abide by State Law.  Telling the Military Plolice that you have the right to yadd yadd...is just, well.....Stupid....MPs have no sense of humor on the gate.

The guy that looks like he is going out to Patrol Kandahar on a SAREX with a Suppressed SBR is NOT what we were talking about in the place.  But you are right, some legal owners should not be.  Stupid can cross that line, that is why I am very selective who I will allow in a class that I teach.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2016, 11:12:42 AM »

If you have ever been to a SAREX or a real SAR.... the idea of many of those people carrying firearms would probably make me reconsider my involvement.  I think back to when I was heavily involved in CD.... there were a number of people who just really needed to not be involved.  Not for any legal reasons, but they had no concept for it.  Like the one observer who routinely photographed CBP helicopters and reported them or brought back photographs of white and blue AStar Helicopters.  Remember the "Counter Narcotics Flight Crew" shoulder patches?

The cadets who were traveling the highways with Tac Vests that said "Civil Air Patrol" pulling in behind motorists on the side of the road on the highway to render aid.  Fortunately none of them pulled in behind a fleeing felon.  I cant tell you how many disabled vehicles I have pulled in behind where the driver was eventually arrested.  CAP is very loosely regulated, Wings can often vary greatly in their standards despite the fact that we are all supposed to have one set of regs.  CCW laws vary greatly.  Some states have concealed and open carry. Some only allow Open Carry. What then?  Do CAP members open carry?  How do you do that in BDUs?  Shoulder holster?  Oh sweet baby jesus.....   I routinely come across legal CCW holders who have such a skewed view of what the law allows that is sad.  DO you know how many people Ive talked to in the last year who believe they have the right to shoot someone simply for trespassing on their property?  Id say 10.  And these are people who just start up conversations with me when they see me in public on duty.  And the majority of them even argue with me about the fact that I am the one who is wrong.

By carrying in CAP, you are an armed CAP member.  You arent a private citizen who is exercising their 2A rights.  How many discussions do we have routinely where people are told "You are representing CAP."  From simply wearing your uniform to school, being told you cant wear a particular military badge on your uniform to what patches you can wear on your flight suit.  Who is going to manage the CAP weapons holders?  Will there be a member who is responsible for insuring your CCW and your qualification card is up to date?  Will there be an E-Services page where you enter your CCW information like you do when you have an FAA medical or a flight review?   What about Wings where you can open carry with no permit?  So now instead of some sort of accountability now anyone in CAP in that wing can carry in their blackhawk shoulder rig?   Who enforces the standards for that wing?  The wing Sgt at Arms?  Will there be a standard list of firearms or can you carry anything from a Chinese Norinco to a Colt Python with an Aimpoint and a competition barrel?  If I have my Glock 17, can I carry 10 spare magazines on a bandoleer? 

People say follow state law.  Does that apply to reciprocity agreements?  So if FL Wing and TN Wing have reciprocity, can FL members carry in uniform in TN?  What happens when a CCW carrier is found to be out of compliance?  Does the SQ commander make a citizens arrest and call the police?  What disciplinary steps will be taken?  Do we not involve LE when there is a law broken?  Because mark my words, it will happen.  And it will happen often.  Will there be a provision that a CAP Commander can revoke or seize a members firearm while on duty should the commander see it necessary?   As a Sq. CC, I have revoked a members flying privileges.  Sure, I didtnt take action on their cert, but I did have the ability to stop them from flying CAP aircraft.  Will a commander have that right?  Or will their constitutional protections override CAP internal policies?   

Dont just flap your gums about carrying guns in CAP because its far more complex than just saying "Lets follow state law".  CAP absolutely takes responsibility and liability for members carrying guns on CAP time.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2016, 11:29:08 AM »

a. The carrying of firearms prohibition is subject to the following exceptions:
(1) A member may carry firearms on his/her person when required to do so by law provided he/she has a written statement of proof of such requirement signed by the wing commander.


I have been a law enforcement officer for 20 years, 4 agencies, 2 states and I have served on a few task forces where people have been deputized as federal agents, Ive had state wide authority as well as authority in other states and I have yet to meet anyone required "by law" to carry a firearm off duty.  Required by law is not "required by agency policy".  Sure I dont know everyone, but can anyone tell me who in the US is required by law to carry a firearm on them even off duty, at all times?  Ive never met that guy. 

Maybe this will be easier since chances are, nobody here knows that person either.  Can anyone provide the statute that would cover that person, if that person were to exist?  If its legally required, then its a written statute somewhere.  And that means it will come with penalties and punishment guidelines should "that guy" be caught without his gun.  It will be a state law or most likely a federal law. 

As a side note, I work for an agency who's policy requires me to be armed at all times on and off duty as well as being required to carry an "approved restraint device"  Interesting huh?  But I am not required by law to carry.
I would be curious also....

Does anyone have any knowledge if this CAP exemption being granted to any member?  Surely there is a record of it.  Not personal names, but what agency falls under the requirements that allows the CAP exemption. Because it would be an agency.  No law is going to be written that covers a specific person by name. 

Interesting off-line discussion with a CAP member I know who is an FBI agent.  No agency or person that he knows of in his almost 15 years as an FBI agent is legally required to be armed 24/7 nor does he know of any state or USC that mandates it. 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 01:23:24 PM by Flying Pig » Logged
Flying Pig
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« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2016, 11:38:07 AM »

...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 01:05:47 PM by Flying Pig » Logged
Flying Pig
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« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2016, 01:00:35 PM »

Combined into one post.. I got a little carried away.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 01:23:11 PM by Flying Pig » Logged
NC Wing Range Master
Recruit

Posts: 26
Unit: MER-NC-162

Iredell CAP
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2016, 06:20:56 PM »

Mr Pig, I was not trying to "Flap my gums". 

I fully understand your point.  Trust me I see people every day that should not own a firearm.  You are right, we would have some that would show up to a Field Training Event with the latest Blackhawk thigh rig sporting a SIG with a laser sight and a suppressed AR 15, or they might just throw on a GI Pistol Belt and green holster and then be mistaken for a LEO or Military Police on duty.

Public perception is critical to CAP, understood.  We are not trying to raise commandos, and we don't need parents getting upset about...well...anything.  So, yes, I see your point.  Until we are able to play like grown-ups (using a small, discreet, well hidden and legal firearm rather than trying to be Rambo) we will have to be managed like this.
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Fubar
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« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2016, 07:23:34 AM »

Again, I say that we abide by State Law.

And again, I ask would you want to be responsible for every CAP member that decides to carry a firearm? If CAP, Inc. changed the regulations to say follow local law, they are now on the hook for any action, legal or otherwise that a member does with a firearm.

They are understandably less than enthused about doing such a thing.

I get there is liability just waking up each day and CAP's lawyers are just as busy as any other non-profit our size. I'm all for lowering the fiscal and criminal exposure as much as we can.
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RRLE
Seasoned Member

Posts: 489

« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2016, 08:26:15 AM »

People say follow state law.  Does that apply to reciprocity agreements?  So if FL Wing and TN Wing have reciprocity, can FL members carry in uniform in TN?

FL and TN have reciprocity agreements. Florida has reciprocity agreements with about 35 states.

The wonderful state of Vermont does not issue any firearms/weapons license. Any law abiding citizen, from any state, may carry in the state of Vermont.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2016, 08:52:44 AM »

Yeah I know...   The hypothetical scenario was whether or not CAP would allow it if CAP just followed state laws.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2016, 11:19:21 AM »

Ive had several people  working on it... Friends who are State Police, DEA, ATF, FBI, Federal Protective Service, Secret Service, a Diplomatic Security Service Agent, Me, a couple friends who are attorneys.  One member here on CAPTalk who has been involved in a rather odd arena of dignitary protection.. Nobody knows of any agency or law that states a legal requirement that their members be required by law to be armed 24/7.

Maybe Im the only one interested  >:D

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NC Wing Range Master
Recruit

Posts: 26
Unit: MER-NC-162

Iredell CAP
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2016, 12:40:19 AM »

It may be that since I have never had a job that did not require that I use a firearm, to me it is noting unusual to have a sidearm.  I guess I just can not understand anyone that is that afraid of a firearm.

NOW....Some of the morons I have seen with a gun....That would make a preacher drink.  And, I can see the point, not every person that might have a gun is as well trained and careful as we would like...

...And Once Again Kids, This is why we can not have nice things, I tell ya! :o
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AIRBORNE!  ALL THE WAY
1Lt Roger C. Ayscue, CAP
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Fubar
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Posts: 689

« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2016, 01:06:15 AM »

Maybe Im the only one interested  >:D

Nope, I've asked around too. The urban legend is that some departments used to mandate off-duty carry until the unions started demanding compensation for that off-duty carry. If you're gonna make me do something, you're gonna pay for it.

All rumor though, I haven't seen a definitive source on that.

What I find interesting is that NHQ is so hyper allergic to firearms that they don't even give the wing commander authorization to bless cops (city/county/state/fed) who carry a firearm for 8-12 hours a day at work to carry one on CAP time. I suspect that's a sign of just how huge the liability is.
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isuhawkeye
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« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2016, 09:56:30 AM »

Prior to 2001 this Alaska law required aircraft in that state to carry a firearm as a part of a survival kit.  That piece of equipment has been removed as listed below.  This is probably where the CAP provision of as required by law came from. 

Alaska Statute Section 02.35.110

Emergency rations and equipment.

(a) An airman may not make a flight inside the state with an aircraft unless emergency equipment is carried as follows:

(1) the following minimum equipment must be carried during the summer months:

(A) rations for each occupant sufficient to sustain life for one week;

(B) one axe or hatchet;

(C) one first aid kit;

(D) an assortment of tackle such as hooks, flies, lines, and sinkers;

(E) one knife;

(F) fire starter;

(G) one mosquito headnet for each occupant;

(H) two small signaling devices such as colored smoke bombs, railroad fuses, or Very pistol shells, in sealed metal containers;

(2) in addition to the equipment required under (1) of this subsection, the following must be carried as minimum equipment from October 15 to April 1 of each year:

(A) one pair of snowshoes;

(B) one sleeping bag;

(C) one wool blanket or equivalent for each occupant over four.

(b) However, operators of multi-engine aircraft licensed to carry more than 15 passengers need carry only the food, mosquito nets, and signaling equipment at all times other than the period from October 15 to April 1 of each year, when two sleeping bags, and one blanket for every two passengers shall also be carried. All of the above requirements as to emergency rations and equipment are considered to be minimum requirements which are to remain in full force and effect, except as further safety measures may be from time to time imposed by the department.
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THRAWN
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Posts: 1,871

« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2016, 10:07:03 AM »

Now wait, nobody says you can't own a gun. Nobody's even saying you can't carry a gun. All we're saying is you can't carry one in town. Now that's not so much to ask, is it?

--Lawman Virgil Earp to divided townspeople in the movie "Tombstone."
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Strup
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sarmed1
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« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2016, 10:33:36 AM »

The previous CAP version, didnt have the "required by law" portion, it only prohibited carry except in survival equipment.  Which was the grey area that I am sure many a member used to justify it.  I am sure someone(s) abused that and strapped some big hacking giant desert eagle in a drop holster to their leg and claimed it was "survival" equipment.  Hence the pendulum swung back the other way, and made things as restrictive as they are today.  BITD as a cadet I knew many a member that carried concealed in the field (either under uniform or kept inside the gear) and it was usually something small but useful, usually compact revolvers, nothing ridiculous....but oh well

mk
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Mark Kleibscheidel
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Al Sayre
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« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2016, 01:49:07 PM »

Prior to 2001 this Alaska law required aircraft in that state to carry a firearm as a part of a survival kit.  That piece of equipment has been removed as listed below.  This is probably where the CAP provision of as required by law came from. 

Alaska Statute Section 02.35.110

Emergency rations and equipment.

(a) An airman may not make a flight inside the state with an aircraft unless emergency equipment is carried as follows:

(1) the following minimum equipment must be carried during the summer months:

(A) rations for each occupant sufficient to sustain life for one week;

(B) one axe or hatchet;

(C) one first aid kit;

(D) an assortment of tackle such as hooks, flies, lines, and sinkers;

(E) one knife;

(F) fire starter;

(G) one mosquito headnet for each occupant;

(H) two small signaling devices such as colored smoke bombs, railroad fuses, or Very pistol shells, in sealed metal containers;

(2) in addition to the equipment required under (1) of this subsection, the following must be carried as minimum equipment from October 15 to April 1 of each year:

(A) one pair of snowshoes;

(B) one sleeping bag;

(C) one wool blanket or equivalent for each occupant over four.

(b) However, operators of multi-engine aircraft licensed to carry more than 15 passengers need carry only the food, mosquito nets, and signaling equipment at all times other than the period from October 15 to April 1 of each year, when two sleeping bags, and one blanket for every two passengers shall also be carried. All of the above requirements as to emergency rations and equipment are considered to be minimum requirements which are to remain in full force and effect, except as further safety measures may be from time to time imposed by the department.

Out of curiosity, is there some kind of exemption for commercial carriers?  I imagine these requirements start to add up to the point of limiting weight & balance when the aircraft carries 200+ passengers & crew...
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Lt Col Al Sayre
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THRAWN
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« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2016, 01:53:42 PM »

Al, seems to be covered in 14 CFR 121.353.
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Strup
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Al Sayre
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« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2016, 02:00:22 PM »

Thanks
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Lt Col Al Sayre
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Spam
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« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2016, 06:12:18 PM »

Prior to 2001 this Alaska law required aircraft in that state to carry a firearm as a part of a survival kit.  That piece of equipment has been removed as listed below.  This is probably where the CAP provision of as required by law came from. 

Alaska Statute Section 02.35.110

Emergency rations and equipment.

(a) An airman may not make a flight inside the state with an aircraft unless emergency equipment is carried as follows:

(1) the following minimum equipment must be carried during the summer months:

(A) rations for each occupant sufficient to sustain life for one week;

(B) one axe or hatchet;

(C) one first aid kit;

(D) an assortment of tackle such as hooks, flies, lines, and sinkers;

(E) one knife;

(F) fire starter;

(G) one mosquito headnet for each occupant;

(H) two small signaling devices such as colored smoke bombs, railroad fuses, or Very pistol shells, in sealed metal containers;

(2) in addition to the equipment required under (1) of this subsection, the following must be carried as minimum equipment from October 15 to April 1 of each year:

(A) one pair of snowshoes;

(B) one sleeping bag;

(C) one wool blanket or equivalent for each occupant over four.

(b) However, operators of multi-engine aircraft licensed to carry more than 15 passengers need carry only the food, mosquito nets, and signaling equipment at all times other than the period from October 15 to April 1 of each year, when two sleeping bags, and one blanket for every two passengers shall also be carried. All of the above requirements as to emergency rations and equipment are considered to be minimum requirements which are to remain in full force and effect, except as further safety measures may be from time to time imposed by the department.



"Shoot, a fellah could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPwW7RaPO_g


V/R
Spam



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Stonewall
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« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2016, 06:24:52 PM »

A Cadet in an Active-Shooter Incident
February 2013


James N is an active duty Air Force officer with multiple combat deployments in support of counter-insurgency and counter-terrorism operations worldwide. His opinions are his alone and do not reflect the official policy or position of any other entity.

It is 8:00am on a Tuesday morning and you are in math class dragging yourself through an algebra quiz that you are not prepared for. As you plot a parabola you ask yourself the time-honored question: “When the heck am I ever going to need this?!” Answer: never. But I had to plot parabolas, so now you do too.

One question that we as cadet program members need to ask ourselves is: does our status as cadet program members change anything about how we must or should act in a mass violence event? I believe that it does. Not because of any regulatory guidance from our program staff, but because of a simple philosophical truth: when we volunteered to wear the uniform of our country, we took on a duty to protect others. I also believe that the training you receive in cadet programs makes you uniquely valuable in a mass violence event.

I want to be abundantly clear here: this does not mean I think you should take a weapon to school, and it doesn’t mean I think you should be in a rush to take a bullet for your country and classmates. Editor’s note: that goes double for us here at CadetStuff.org.
So, what does it mean? It means that you can and should be part of the solution, and apply good Operational Risk Management to the possibility of a mass violence event at your school. My goal here is to teach you how to think about handling violence in school, rather than what to think. If you want a checklist of actions to take, talk to your teachers, school security, and local law enforcement. Consider the guidance that the Department of Homeland Security has given us here.

Operational Risk Management, or ORM, is how the military analyzes and handles the risks we take every day. Before I fly a combat mission, or before my brothers in the Army run a training day on the range, we sit down and do a deliberate assessment to consider what could go wrong and what we can do about it. The first step is to identify hazards. Consider that mass-violence events do not all play out the same. Foreign terrorists are a different type of hazard from disturbed students who are also different from inner-city gang members. Each type of attacker has different goals and different tools.

Then assess the risk. Assessing risk is a two-part endeavor: first you have to consider how likely the hazard is, then you have to consider how severe the hazard is. So, first let’s ask: what are the chances of a mass-violence event happening at your school? The odds are pretty darn small. You are much more likely to die in a car accident on your way to prom than face a shooter. That should shape some of your decisions. Next, ask yourself: if a mass-violence event happens, how bad can it get? Pretty darn bad. The severity of an active-shooter is why we need to take it so seriously and why it is getting so much attention right now.

The next step is to consider risk control measures. In other words, what can we do to make a mass-violence event less likely and what can we do to reduce the carnage if we fail to prevent it?

To make a mass-violence event less likely, we have to catch the guy before he starts shooting. That is not an easy task. Lots of people say and do unusual and even startling things but are harmless — and some real bad guys are very careful not to tip their hands before the attack. A good rule of thumb is, “If you see something, say something.” When in doubt, let your parents and your teacher know if you suspect someone may be preparing an attack. To help you sort out the threat from the background noise, consider the Air Force Office of Special Investigations’ list of indicators that an attack may be in progress.

Once a mass-violence event starts, the only way to make it less severe is to stop it or slow the attack. Lots of people have opinions about what you should do once the shooting starts. Again, I think you should review the DoHS material in the link above and talk to your local experts. But consider these ideas:

•  Get the emergency call out. Law enforcement needs good, timely information so that they can effectively challenge the attacker. If you have your cell phone with you, use it. Call 911, and be prepared to both follow their directions and volunteer information that might be helpful. Consider that in any tactical situation, the good guys will be looking for SALUTE information on the bad guys. SALUTE is a military memory-jogging acronym for SIZE, ACTIVITY, LOCATION, UNIFORM, TIME, EQUIPMENT. It is not a perfect checklist, but helping the police fill in those blanks might help speed up their response and save lives. It might sound like this: “Hello my name is James and I am reporting multiple gunshots at Alta Loma High School. I am in room #123 on the North East corner of the campus, with 30 other students. I can see 2 shooters moving together across the quad and shooting at kids in the quad, they are wearing white t-shirts and black cargo pants, the shooting started about a minute ago and I can see a lot of people hurt, the shooters have rifles and they are wearing some kind of vests.” Do not expose yourself to fire just to get a look at the attacker, or to get to the phone.

•  Have some tools at hand. You cannot and should notbring a weapon to school. With that said, I am not aware of any rule against having a trauma first aid kit in most schools and work places. Ask your school staff if the first aid kits in your classrooms are stocked with trauma supplies such as QuikClot, Tourniquets, and pressure bandages. Ask a member of the school staff to look through the classroom first aid kits with you so you can both be familiar with their contents in an emergency.

•  Get trained. Get the most advanced emergency medical training you can. Take a basic first aid class, take an EMT or First-Responder class, and then take a Tactical Pre-Hospital Trauma Life Support Class. Consider asking medics at your local military base to teach a Tactical Combat Casualty Care course to you and other cadets. Apply common sense and good judgment about employing your skills within your scope of training, and do not expose yourself to fire to do so.

Notice a theme yet? I am not talking about fighting the bad guy. Odds are very small, even in a mass-violence event, that you will even see the bad guy. However, you are very likely to see injured people who are stuck waiting for paramedics to come to them, and the paramedics will be waiting until law enforcement can make the scene safe enough to enter. That means that if a classmate is next to you and bleeding out, you either need to make the scene safe through intervening with the attacker, or evacuate the casualty to safety, or keep her from bleeding out until the paramedics can get to her. I think we owe it to William Sanders to know hemorrhage control.

Certainly, there is more we can do than just try to stop the bleeding. At least I hope so. I don’t have all the answers. I do know that for me, personally, the only wrong answer is the one that lets a killer go on killing unchallenged. Remember, that does not mean you need to be the one who challenges him; let a solid door do that for you. If you have a clear line of escape, by all means use it. Considering that most modern high schools are fenced in better than that detention facility in Zero Dark Thirty, though, that might not be an option.

If you are going to hide, consider the difference between cover and concealment – cover objects can stop bullets, concealment only stops line of sight. Locking and barricading the classroom door is a solid idea, but you might also consider what to do if he breaches that door. Consider that a fire extinguisher might provide some distraction and reach, at least long enough to facilitate a rush on the attacker. I don’t like the idea of telling you whether or not to fight. I don’t like the idea of using textbooks or fire extinguishers against a guy with a gun. If you must fight, gang up on him with a class of people, and engage with an overwhelming level of commitment and ferocity. You are fighting for your life. You MUST turn the tables through SPEED, SURPRISE, and VIOLENCE OF ACTION, to the point the attacker has to fight for his own life.

One final thought: you need to get smart on this subject. We owe it to the victims to know how each of these attacks started, what tactics the perpetrators used, what indicators the attackers gave off, and how the attacks were ultimately stopped. We now have a wealth of information about these attacks. There are links below that can help guide your research. Note the timeline of each attack compared to the number of casualties. Also note that at Columbine, Mumbai, and Norway, explosives were used. Once you get smart on it, help us come up with solutions. I put some ideas into this article, now I want to hear your better ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_Square_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_tech_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumbai_attack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_shootings_at_CIA_Headquarters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_attacks_related_to_schools
http://www.secretservice.gov/ntac_ssi.shtml
http://www.naemt.org/education/PHTLS/phtls.aspx
http://www.davecullen.com/columbine.htm
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Active shooter.
 


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