Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 17, 2018, 07:17:37 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: A crash site situation....
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2 3  All Print
Author Topic: A crash site situation....  (Read 8598 times)
♠SARKID♠
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,836
Unit: GLR-WI-002

Timmerman Composite Squadron - WIWG - CAP
« on: June 18, 2008, 08:31:20 PM »

Here's a nagging question I've had that probably has a simple easy answer.

If you come upon a crash site, and the pilot/crew is still alive (perhaps unconscious), are you allowed to tamper with the wreckage in order to get to the crew? i.e break windows, open doors, move parts, etc.
Logged

           Capt. Dan Turkal
..
                WI-204/CC
.
_
Seasoned Member

Posts: 406

« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2008, 08:34:04 PM »

Absolutely.  Life saving measures always comes first.  Also having someone that lived through the crash is a much better source of info as to what caused the crash.
Logged
davidsinn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,021
Unit: NW-IN

« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2008, 08:58:59 PM »

Without a second thought. If you can, have someone take pics before you move something and put it back as close as you can when you have finished.
Logged
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
mikeylikey
Banned

Posts: 3,756

« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2008, 09:04:00 PM »

Without a second thought. If you can, have someone take pics before you move something and put it back as close as you can when you have finished.

I can't agree with you more.  I think a camera should be standard equipment for every ground team.  Not just from a "save your butt" legal standpoint, but so there are pictorial records to go along with the report. 

We all like to read stories with pictures, the reports we produce need not be any different.  PLUS, after the search or mission, getting pics of the group is always a moral booster, and can help get publicity for your unit when your PAO writes up the news releases. 
Logged
What's up monkeys?
davidsinn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,021
Unit: NW-IN

« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2008, 09:18:30 PM »

I'm pretty sure it's on the suggested equipment list in the task guide.
Logged
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,643

« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2008, 09:25:51 PM »

Without a second thought. If you can, have someone take pics before you move something and put it back as close as you can when you have finished.

If you have the personnel to take pictures before moving anything this is good. 

I would not try to "but it back as close as you can" though.  The pictures will be enough for the NTSB to establish what is what.....if you try to fix it...you can destroy even more of the evidence.....and also if for some reason the investigators do not know that it was moved and then replaced it may mess up their findings during the investigation.

Bottom line.

You can what you need to save a life......then nothing else.   If you move something....make a note of it in your log.  Take pictures of it before if you can.  But once you have moved it to save the life....don't move it any more.
Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
JohnKachenmeister
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,352

« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2008, 12:26:38 AM »

Here's a nagging question I've had that probably has a simple easy answer.

If you come upon a crash site, and the pilot/crew is still alive (perhaps unconscious), are you allowed to tamper with the wreckage in order to get to the crew? i.e break windows, open doors, move parts, etc.

No.  You let them die.  Just have some chalk to mark their body location. ???
Logged
Another former CAP officer
_
Seasoned Member

Posts: 406

« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2008, 12:33:47 AM »

One note about using digital cameras.  Speaking from experience, be ready to have your memory card taken.  In that case a couple people on my team who took photos got their cards taken but they were eventually sent back to them by the state police, but this may not always be the case.

Also make sure there aren't any photos or videos from before on the memory card that you don't want police or anyone else to see.  The one person had a video on the card that now is probably making it's round of all the troopers in the state.
Logged
♠SARKID♠
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,836
Unit: GLR-WI-002

Timmerman Composite Squadron - WIWG - CAP
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2008, 12:35:10 AM »

Quote
No.  You let them die.  Just have some chalk to mark their body location. Huh

Maybe I should have been more specific in my question.  Of course you're going to save the crew, thats a given.  What I was asking is - is there a catch that would you still get in trouble (for tampering) if you did?  Previous posts indicate no, as I would have expected.
Logged

           Capt. Dan Turkal
..
                WI-204/CC
.
mikeylikey
Banned

Posts: 3,756

« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2008, 12:59:18 AM »

One note about using digital cameras. speaking from experience, be ready to have your memory card taken. IN that case a couple people on my team who took photos got their cards taken but they were eventually sent back to them by the state police, but this may not always be the case.

Also make sure there aren't any photos or videos from before on the memory card that you don't want police or anyone else to see. the one person had a video on the card that now is probably making it's round of all the troopers in the state.

Unless it is a crime scene, only the NTSB can confiscate images of wreckage.  The photos are owned by CAP.  Now if you want to turn the pics over that is one thing, but if they "take them" they need a warrant. 
Logged
What's up monkeys?
Duke Dillio
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 794

« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2008, 01:39:08 AM »

^Might want to talk to a lawyer but I don't think that is exactly accurate there Mike.  If they ask you to turn over the disks, you can attempt to refuse.  That would be about the time that they arrest you for "Obstruction of Justice" or some other really nasty thing.  I'm sure some of the cops on here could explain some of this stuff.  It's something that I heard of a little while back so a refresher might be nice.  If they ask in an official capacity, you are required to turn over the pictures because it is evidence of a potential crime until they know otherwise.  I think then they said that you could be charged with obstruction and they will take your camera away because they now have probable cause to believe that you have now committed a crime.  I can't remember all the details.  It was in some briefing back in Colorado a few years back where we had a state trooper and some guy from the NTSB come out and give us some instruction.  I think your best bet would be to carry a spare and transfer everything to the spare.  They can wait while you do that.
Logged
Jerry Jacobs
Forum Regular

Posts: 113

« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2008, 03:02:23 AM »

I'm pretty sure it's on the suggested equipment list in the task guide.
Its acutally mandatory for a team to have a camera.
Quote from: Ground Team Task Guide O-0006
MANDATORY EQUIPMENT
Vehicle- Mounted FM transceiver
Handheld FM transceiver
Signal Panels, (2'x6'), 6
Water, 5 gallons
Blood Borne Pathogen Kit (s)
Shovel/E-Tool
Camera with film (instant preferred, 35mm
acceptable)
http://www.cap.gov/documents/u_052704140516.pdf
Logged
Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,043

« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2008, 03:43:52 PM »

You do anything you need to do to get to someone, Crime Scene, crash site, whatever, if it involves saving them.  Your not going to get in trouble.  If you can maybe select a different route to avoid something, do that.  As far as them taking your pictures, unless its a crime scene, LE isn't going to yank your camera.  Even if it is a crime scene, they will probably ask you, as I have in a few cases, to come back to HQ, and allow us to down load the photos we need.  If you refuse, then I take your camera, and if a warrant is needed to view them, your camera sits in evidence until its written. ;D
Logged
MSgt Van
Seasoned Member

Posts: 333

« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2008, 03:53:57 PM »

That's why I carry a "fubar" on my pack.
http://www.stanleyfubar.com/
If they're alive, or I'm not sure, I'm getting in.
Logged
♠SARKID♠
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,836
Unit: GLR-WI-002

Timmerman Composite Squadron - WIWG - CAP
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2008, 06:14:21 PM »

That's why I carry a "fubar" on my pack.
http://www.stanleyfubar.com/
If they're alive, or I'm not sure, I'm getting in.

We carry two extendable Halligan tools in the vehicle kits.
Logged

           Capt. Dan Turkal
..
                WI-204/CC
.
IceNine
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,969

« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2008, 08:00:32 PM »

Just think before you act.  Have everyone walk in a single file line in.  The med folks go in the others secure the area and start taking pics.  If you have evidence of life try to preserve the scene, and hightail it in there but remember these investigators are very well trained in recreation so even if you move something they can still recreate the scene, it may just take a little longer to do
Logged
"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4
sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,194

« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2008, 01:49:05 AM »

Link to the NTSB brochure "Responding to an Aircraft Accident - How to Support the NTSB, A Guide For Police & Public Safety Personnel"
http://www.ntsb.gov/family/LEO_brochure.pdf

The document starts out "UPON COMPLETION OF LIFE SAFETY ACTIVITIES - Secure Scene and Preserve Evidence"  Then it gives specific instructions.

And specifically from federal law, 49CFR830.10(b):
(b) Prior to the time the Board or its authorized representative takes custody of aircraft wreckage, mail, or cargo, such wreckage, mail, or cargo may not be disturbed or moved except to the extent necessary:
    (1) To remove persons injured or trapped;
    (2) To protect the wreckage from further damage; or
    (3) To protect the public from injury.
    (c) Where it is necessary to move aircraft wreckage, mail or cargo, sketches, descriptive notes, and photographs shall be made, if possible, of the original positions and condition of the wreckage and any significant impact marks.

Mike
Logged
gistek
Forum Regular

Posts: 137

« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2008, 02:47:29 PM »

If a LEO wants my cell phone, camera and/or memory card because I took photos of a  scene, I would tell them that they have to ask their Liason to contact the CAP Liason and Information Officers.

The main reason cameras and etc are confiscated is to prevent images from being broadcast. I doubt any well trained GT member would post or sell images they took, but the LEO's probably don't.

My biggest concern if I ever take a photo of a scene would be to make sure CAP and the NTSB gets the photos. To me the best way to insure that is to have the Information Officer (or the IO's MSA) gets the images immediately on my return.

and yes, I do believe I would be willing to be arrested over this.
Logged
isuhawkeye
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,312

John's web site
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2008, 03:04:17 PM »

And that is exactly why CAP has such a hard time integrating with "Legitimate" Rescue Services
Logged
hatentx
Seasoned Member

Posts: 320

« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2008, 04:09:00 PM »

Okay kinda with in the subject line.  I am in the Army and have gone through Combat Life Savers Course.  This course for those who don't know is teaching non medical troops enough to keep someone alive and to be an assistant to the medic if there is a medic on site.  We are trained on numerous things and all I would do at a accident scene but only one I would do in hesitation.  I know as not being a medical personal I can not issue medication such as IV fluids, unless it is to military personnel.   So now to my question.  Legally if I were to come up to a crash site and I, being trained to set up a saline lock, am I able to do so?  now that I am thinking as well if I were to find someone with tension pneumothorax would I be able to do the chest needle decompression.  I ask our medic and there thought was that id the have to knowledge to save a life they are going to do it.  I have the training but being wearing my CAP hat and not my Army hat or my personal hat what would be the best bet
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: A crash site situation....
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.112 seconds with 25 queries.