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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: A crash site situation....
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Author Topic: A crash site situation....  (Read 8577 times)
davidsinn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,021
Unit: NW-IN

« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2008, 04:03:24 PM »

The disposable makes a lot of sense. But the second mem card just wouldn't fly. I have a Sony Cybershot which takes Sony cards and are freaking expensive so I still wouldn't hand them over.
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Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
Al Sayre
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,515
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2008, 04:05:11 PM »

Simple solution, give the LEO what he asks for and ask him for a receipt for it.  If he has a problem with that get the IC on the horn and let him handle it.  Most LEO's are not going to have a problem giving you a receipt, especially if you make it clear that the purpose of the receipt is to maintain the chain of evidence.  That way you and he and everyone else knows that you gave him the pictures, or your equipment, and he is responsible for it until it is returned to you or he signs it in to evidence.  You can probably get the camera/memory stick back in a few hours after the photos are downloaded, and I'm sure that your IC will take steps to ensure that happens.
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
davidsinn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,021
Unit: NW-IN

« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2008, 04:11:39 PM »

I'll remember that. Thanks.
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Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,966

« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2008, 05:58:42 PM »

Can anyone offer a first-person account of a law enforcement officer confiscating a CAP members camera because it had photos of an accident scene?  We can come up with all sorts of what-ifs, but it this was any sort of actual issue it would probably be in a regulation somewhere.

And just to throw another theorhetical wrench into the works -- could turning over CAP photographs taken on an AFAM to assist a LEO in a criminal investigation be considered violating our various LE-related restrictions?
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MikeD
Seasoned Member

Posts: 248

« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2008, 11:23:08 PM »

And just to throw another theorhetical wrench into the works -- could turning over CAP photographs taken on an AFAM to assist a LEO in a criminal investigation be considered violating our various LE-related restrictions?

Having worked for the government for a while, I'd say that can quite possibly happen.  This sounds like a question everyone should be asking their wing legal eagles about. 
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Al Sayre
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,515
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2008, 08:02:51 AM »

I think if you volunteered the photos, without permission of the IC, then your butt would be in a sling.  Let the IC make the call who gets the photos, he/she is (supposed to be) trained on what to do or at least know who to call in these kinds of situations.  I have the Wing Legal Officer on speed dial on my cell phone.

If a LEO demanded the photos, and you gave them to him, a good defense attorney could probably have them thrown out as evidence if the LEA wasn't the primary customer.

One caveat, we can and do provide photos to our customers on CD missions, but I'm not sure if they become part of the evidence or not.  Must be some grey areas that allow it, but it's above my paygrade...
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
isuhawkeye
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,312

John's web site
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2008, 08:06:05 AM »

ALL Search and Rescue Operations, and ALL death scenes are at some level criminal investigations.  

The scene material goes to the lead investigator on the scene.  I do nto know of any part of our country where CAP is responsibe for investigating accidents.  You guys find them.  When they are found you get help for the victims, and then you sit on them.  Until the appropriate jurisdiction comes along to investigate.  

I have worked 6 or 7 accidents in my day, and in only one of those was CAP included in the investigation,a and recovery of the aircraft, and that is because it was a CAP plane.
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RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,966

« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2008, 06:51:26 PM »

I don't think anyone is talking about CAP investigating the accident...the issue is what someone who is investigating the accident can demand of CAP members and what we can provide if requested or orderred to turn over photographs that we had taken as part of our find of the aircraft. 
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ammotrucker
Forum Regular

Posts: 141
Unit: SER-FL-370

« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2008, 08:14:51 PM »

In almost all cases an aircraft accident is classed a crime scene.  Therefore I would beleive that if law enforcement could and probably would ask or demand the photo's as a matter of showing exact placement of things.

I beleive that most of the LEO I know will return the images back to you in the end.

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RG Little, Capt
davidsinn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,021
Unit: NW-IN

« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2008, 08:51:28 PM »

I think you misunderstand my concern. I have zero issue with handing over images. That's why I'd take them. My issue comes when Officer Smith demands I hand over my hardware. That's where I draw the line. There is no reason they couldn't wait a few hours to get the images. That being said next time I go shopping I will be getting a disposable camera and that's what I'd hand over just as soon as I receive the OK from my chain of command(IC) which I imagine shouldn't take more than a few minutes.
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Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
isuhawkeye
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,312

John's web site
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2008, 08:55:41 PM »

My take:

Since you are not a LEO, and may, or may not have received documentable training in chain of custody an officer may or may not feel comfortable with the chain of custody being maintained as you leave to make a copy of your images.  If those images are brought into court their accountability from the scene becomes important.

One of our distinguished Officers on this board could provide their input


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Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,043

« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2008, 09:24:09 PM »

If they ask for your photos, give them up.  If you don't want to give them to the officer, don't take any.  More than likely, if nothing was moved, they could probably care less about the pictures you took and will take their own.  If you took photos because you had to move something, then they will probably want them.  Since most things are digital now, If I were the officer, I would just load your pics onto my laptop, a flash drive, or the Detectives would have the crime scene techs burn them onto a disc right there at the scene with you standing next to them and watching.
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sarflyer
Forum Regular

Posts: 179
Unit: NER-MA-001

« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2008, 09:26:26 PM »

I can talk from both sides.  As a police officer I wouldn't care if you were snapping photos.  Could they be evidence.  Yes but I'm going to call in my id section to snap the scene.    On that note if the officer in charge of the scene determined it was evidence, you better surrender it immediately unless you want to catch a charge of interfering with a police officer.   You don't have the right to make the officer wait until your chain of command approves.  They won't care and will take the camera by force if necessary.

Now, that determination may vary from state to state.  

I will give you a federal level situation as an example because we follow this in CT.  If an officer is standing on the sidewalk outside of a house and can see the 10 pounds of marijuana on your dining room table they have the right to enter by whatever means they want and secure that evidence.    It's called plain view.  The officer had a right to be where he was when he observed the item and recognized it as evidence which means he can go get it.  

Now as a CAP GTL  I would say we aren't there to document the scene.  1. Save lives.  2 Secure the scene until relieved by competent authority.    And don't disturb the scene unless it involves number 1.

Any questions?  
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: A crash site situation....
 


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