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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: A crash site situation....
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davidsinn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,021
Unit: NW-IN

« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2008, 04:24:03 PM »

If a LEO wants my cell phone, camera and/or memory card because I took photos of a  scene, I would tell them that they have to ask their Liason to contact the CAP Liason and Information Officers.

The main reason cameras and etc are confiscated is to prevent images from being broadcast. I doubt any well trained GT member would post or sell images they took, but the LEO's probably don't.

My biggest concern if I ever take a photo of a scene would be to make sure CAP and the NTSB gets the photos. To me the best way to insure that is to have the Information Officer (or the IO's MSA) gets the images immediately on my return.

and yes, I do believe I would be willing to be arrested over this.

I'm with him. I would not turn over my personal property to someone just because they think they have the power to take it from me. There is no reason they can not wait a few hours to get the images and I still get to take my camera home with me.
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Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
Eclipse
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Posts: 28,934

« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2008, 05:06:30 PM »

Okay kinda with in the subject line.  I am in the Army and have gone through Combat Life Savers Course.  This course for those who don't know is teaching non medical troops enough to keep someone alive and to be an assistant to the medic if there is a medic on site.  We are trained on numerous things and all I would do at a accident scene but only one I would do in hesitation.  I know as not being a medical personal I can not issue medication such as IV fluids, unless it is to military personnel.   So now to my question.  Legally if I were to come up to a crash site and I, being trained to set up a saline lock, am I able to do so?  now that I am thinking as well if I were to find someone with tension pneumothorax would I be able to do the chest needle decompression.  I ask our medic and there thought was that id the have to knowledge to save a life they are going to do it.  I have the training but being wearing my CAP hat and not my Army hat or my personal hat what would be the best bet

Spend some time with the search button and check out the CAP Health Services Yahoo Group.

This area is a cavern of gray and a minefield for members.

CAP is not a first responder agency, and is not charged with providing advanced life support, but the regs say members are allowed to provide assistance within their capabilities.

Anything more than that will drift this thread and there's plenty here already on this.
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isuhawkeye
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,312

John's web site
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2008, 05:31:13 PM »

The short answer is no, you cant preform those things.

Ill try to explain why.

Advanced life support skills like starting IVs, and Decompressing a pneumo are simple to preform, but  they are considered medical procedures.  These procedures require the oversight, and direction of a physician.  In your army service your combat medics work under the oversight and direction of a (Battalion surgeon) medical director.  This medical director has established policies, and procedures for the treatment of troops.  This is very similar to the medical direction that has evolved in the civilian EMS world.  EMT's and Paramedics are blessed to preform skills by their medical director.

As a CLS working in CAP you have a few restrictions in front of you.

1.  You do not have a medical director as oversight

2.  The CLS does not have a correlation in the civilian health care system.  you are not recognized as more than a highly skilled bystander.

Sorry to be a downer on this, but those are the shakes
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hatentx
Seasoned Member

Posts: 320

« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2008, 05:40:50 PM »

no thanks that is what I wanted to know.  I know I would feel horrible if I can into a situation and knew I could safe alive and have that moral delima in front of me.  But that is the answer I was looking for. 
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isuhawkeye
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,312

John's web site
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2008, 05:47:56 PM »

I simply solve that problem by keeping my self out of those situations. 

If you dont carry ALS equipment you will not be put into a situation to make those game time situations
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hatentx
Seasoned Member

Posts: 320

« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2008, 06:06:04 PM »

yeah but then you have to wonder if you would have had the equipment could you have done more.  I have been there once before and diddnt have a correctly packet CLS bag.  Needless to say no IV tubing.  I just hate those situations.
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isuhawkeye
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,312

John's web site
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2008, 08:07:56 PM »

Its not your fault that the system does not provide for the skills of its members.  You should take no responsibility for anything beyond the standards set forth by CAP, and the Air Force
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Johnny Yuma
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Posts: 612

« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2008, 10:04:05 PM »

If a LEO wants my cell phone, camera and/or memory card because I took photos of a  scene, I would tell them that they have to ask their Liason to contact the CAP Liason and Information Officers.

The main reason cameras and etc are confiscated is to prevent images from being broadcast. I doubt any well trained GT member would post or sell images they took, but the LEO's probably don't.

My biggest concern if I ever take a photo of a scene would be to make sure CAP and the NTSB gets the photos. To me the best way to insure that is to have the Information Officer (or the IO's MSA) gets the images immediately on my return.

and yes, I do believe I would be willing to be arrested over this.

You've got to be f- ing joking me?!?!?!?!

In Kansas, the Kansas Highway Patrol is the lead investigating agency for all aviation accidents. They do the primary accident investigation and work with the NTSB/FAA, etc.

If my GT was the first on scene, the first question I'd ask the Trooper investigating is what format he wants my pics. My laptop goes on every mission, he can either get a CD burned or hand him the whole memory stick. SD ram is cheap, about $20/Gig.

The idea behind CAP is to find the target, keep the victims alive until the paid help gets there and assist them when they show up. It's not to win the Which Agency's people are more Anal contest.

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"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"
 
" Skip a bit, brother."
 
"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,934

« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2008, 10:11:41 PM »

^ I agree in principle, but not operationally.

Once things are sorted out and I have authorization from >my< superiors, whomever my people tell me should get the pictures can have them in whatever format they want that I can provide.

I would not hand my memory stick over to some random officer just because he asked.  He may have no more right to have them then I do (in an evidence sense).

We have internal rules to follow just like other agencies do, and commanders and liaisons who are trained and charged to deal with that - let them sort it out.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2008, 10:52:34 PM »

Seems to me that this should be something that should already be worked out and documented through a Wing supplement pr policy addressing the issue based on applicable state law. 
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mikeylikey
Banned

Posts: 3,756

« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2008, 11:02:55 PM »

^ I figure if we have an actual AFAM, and find the wreckage and occupant first, we are acting as a FED Agency, (The USAF AUX) which trumps local and State agencies, to include local cops.  We follow our internal procedures and AF guidance.  Plus, the COP wont be making and investigations findings or reports on the scene, everything he has will be confiscated by the NTSB the minute the investigator arrives.     
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What's up monkeys?
D2SK
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Posts: 105

« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2008, 11:11:36 PM »

^ I figure if we have an actual AFAM, and find the wreckage and occupant first, we are acting as a FED Agency, (The USAF AUX) which trumps local and State agencies, to include local cops.  We follow our internal procedures and AF guidance.  Plus, the COP wont be making and investigations findings or reports on the scene, everything he has will be confiscated by the NTSB the minute the investigator arrives.     

You figure wrong.

You should probably read the MOU your Wing has with your State EOC.  Most county sheriffs have absolute jurisdiction over anything happening in their county...including SAR.
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Lighten up, Francis.
lordmonar
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Posts: 10,649

« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2008, 11:28:24 PM »

Well, we are not talking about an actualy SAR situation...but an accident inestigation.

IIRC the NTSB has jurisdiction over most aircraft incedents.

Either way.....any pictures a CAP member taks of the crash site as a member of an ES team (as opposed to just a bystander) would/should be turned over to the appropriate authrities.

Can they just take them, the camera and memory too?   Not sure....but I certainly would not fight them over it.

If Officer Joe Blow asks for my pictures....I would first offer to down load them, just to save the hassel of getting CAP to reemburse me for the cost of the memory stick/camera.  I certainly would not refuse.....as that would be an obstruction charge.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Eclipse
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Posts: 28,934

« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2008, 11:55:49 PM »

You should probably read the MOU your Wing has with your State EOC.  Most county sheriffs have absolute jurisdiction over anything happening in their county...including SAR.

Reading that MOU isn't a bad idea, but don't assume it addresses the issue at all, and certainly don't assume the Sheriff has any special jurisdiction.  This phenomenon seems to be more prevalent in rural areas and Western states.  My state's primary SAR agency is just another agency, not related to law enforcement.  Local PD, and maybe even the Sheriff might be onscene, but they don't have any special SAR powers, just local LE responsibilities.

Can they just take them, the camera and memory too?   Not sure....but I certainly would not fight them over it.

If Officer Joe Blow asks for my pictures....I would first offer to down load them, just to save the hassle of getting CAP to reimburse me for the cost of the memory stick/camera.  I certainly would not refuse.....as that would be an obstruction charge.

Assuming we're one big, happy, family, there should be no reason you shouldn't turn over evidence, through channels and with proper procedure, however one agency disputing whether another agency is entitled to the photos is far from "obstruction of justice" (again assuming you don't lie about them, destroy, or alter them).

For a local LEO to arrest a CAP member would have to be a situation where everyone involved is operating way outside the lines of both the law and common sense.  ANyone can charge anyone with anything, and an LEO can arrest you and charge you with whatever he wants but making that charge stick, once made, would be a different situation, and could very well be more trouble for the LEA than the member. (hopefully watch commanders would intervene, etc).

Territorial disputes between agencies are not uncommon, but as mikey says, in this case there is no question that we >are< acting as an instrumentality of the federal government.  Thankfully, the entirety of this is hypothetical and always will be for 99.9% of CAP members.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 12:01:50 AM by Eclipse » Logged


lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,649

« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2008, 12:06:50 AM »

On the other side of the coin.....do we want to get into a urinary olymipics with the local PD/Sherriff over a bunch of photos?

Sure there may be procedures....but Officer Joe Blow only knows that some "dumb CAPer refused to give me the pictures"....and CAP does not get called out next mission.

If I were the GTL on site....I would give them up...make a note of it my log and report it up to the GBD.

Let the IC and his staff argue with the local guys about it.....that's what they get paid  ;D for.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Eclipse
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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2008, 12:38:21 AM »

This is probably another situation where it sounds simple on the face, but there are too many variables to really discuss it in much detail.

"not being called again" assumes they were the ones who called us in the first place, which is generally not how the call-outs happen in my parts.

AFRCC is sending us out and we'd likely be the ones calling local PD.

If your part of the universe has LEA's as the lead SAR agency, and they are calling you in, then the rules are different from the start.

At a minimum, though, this is probably not a bad discussion for unit and Group CC's to have up the chain to determine what the preferred course is in a respective state.

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lordmonar
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Posts: 10,649

« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2008, 01:26:04 AM »

Actually that would be the job of the Wing ES guys.

But yes....all of these relationships should be figured out before a mission.

My point is....how many relationships (inside and outside of CAP) are often driven by one CAP guy pissing off on guy in a supporting/requesting agency?

The key word here is cooperation.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
N Harmon
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 776
Unit: GLR-MI-063

Monroe Composite Squadron
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2008, 03:04:39 PM »

My point is....how many relationships (inside and outside of CAP) are often driven by one CAP guy pissing off on guy in a supporting/requesting agency?

It is a judgement call as to what CAP is willing to tolerate in maintaining those relationships. I wouldn't tolerate (for example), and would risk arrest to prevent anyone from commendering team members into helping remove victims' remains from a crash scene, fighting a fire, or whatever else.

But confiscating photographs does seem like something you just tolerate and then call up the IC and say, "you won't believe what this yahoo just did..."

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NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron
davidsinn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,021
Unit: NW-IN

« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2008, 03:53:13 PM »

It's not the images that I have a problem with. It's them taking my hardware is where I have the problem. They can wait a few hours so I can offload my camera.
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Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
isuhawkeye
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,312

John's web site
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2008, 03:55:57 PM »

shoot pictures with a disposable ilm camera.  hand that over, or carry a second memory card to swap out.  you don't need copies o pictures any way.  the only immages should go to the investigators. 
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: A crash site situation....
 


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