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♠SARKID♠
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Posts: 1,835
Unit: GLR-WI-002

Timmerman Composite Squadron - WIWG - CAP
« on: June 18, 2008, 08:31:20 PM »

Here's a nagging question I've had that probably has a simple easy answer.

If you come upon a crash site, and the pilot/crew is still alive (perhaps unconscious), are you allowed to tamper with the wreckage in order to get to the crew? i.e break windows, open doors, move parts, etc.
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           Capt. Dan Turkal
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                WI-048/CC
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Seasoned Member

Posts: 406

« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2008, 08:34:04 PM »

Absolutely.  Life saving measures always comes first.  Also having someone that lived through the crash is a much better source of info as to what caused the crash.
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davidsinn
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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2008, 08:58:59 PM »

Without a second thought. If you can, have someone take pics before you move something and put it back as close as you can when you have finished.
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Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
mikeylikey
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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2008, 09:04:00 PM »

Without a second thought. If you can, have someone take pics before you move something and put it back as close as you can when you have finished.

I can't agree with you more.  I think a camera should be standard equipment for every ground team.  Not just from a "save your butt" legal standpoint, but so there are pictorial records to go along with the report. 

We all like to read stories with pictures, the reports we produce need not be any different.  PLUS, after the search or mission, getting pics of the group is always a moral booster, and can help get publicity for your unit when your PAO writes up the news releases. 
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What's up monkeys?
davidsinn
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2008, 09:18:30 PM »

I'm pretty sure it's on the suggested equipment list in the task guide.
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Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
lordmonar
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2008, 09:25:51 PM »

Without a second thought. If you can, have someone take pics before you move something and put it back as close as you can when you have finished.

If you have the personnel to take pictures before moving anything this is good. 

I would not try to "but it back as close as you can" though.  The pictures will be enough for the NTSB to establish what is what.....if you try to fix it...you can destroy even more of the evidence.....and also if for some reason the investigators do not know that it was moved and then replaced it may mess up their findings during the investigation.

Bottom line.

You can what you need to save a life......then nothing else.   If you move something....make a note of it in your log.  Take pictures of it before if you can.  But once you have moved it to save the life....don't move it any more.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2008, 12:26:38 AM »

Here's a nagging question I've had that probably has a simple easy answer.

If you come upon a crash site, and the pilot/crew is still alive (perhaps unconscious), are you allowed to tamper with the wreckage in order to get to the crew? i.e break windows, open doors, move parts, etc.

No.  You let them die.  Just have some chalk to mark their body location. ???
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Another former CAP officer
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Posts: 406

« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2008, 12:33:47 AM »

One note about using digital cameras.  Speaking from experience, be ready to have your memory card taken.  In that case a couple people on my team who took photos got their cards taken but they were eventually sent back to them by the state police, but this may not always be the case.

Also make sure there aren't any photos or videos from before on the memory card that you don't want police or anyone else to see.  The one person had a video on the card that now is probably making it's round of all the troopers in the state.
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♠SARKID♠
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2008, 12:35:10 AM »

Quote
No.  You let them die.  Just have some chalk to mark their body location. Huh

Maybe I should have been more specific in my question.  Of course you're going to save the crew, thats a given.  What I was asking is - is there a catch that would you still get in trouble (for tampering) if you did?  Previous posts indicate no, as I would have expected.
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           Capt. Dan Turkal
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                WI-048/CC
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2008, 12:59:18 AM »

One note about using digital cameras. speaking from experience, be ready to have your memory card taken. IN that case a couple people on my team who took photos got their cards taken but they were eventually sent back to them by the state police, but this may not always be the case.

Also make sure there aren't any photos or videos from before on the memory card that you don't want police or anyone else to see. the one person had a video on the card that now is probably making it's round of all the troopers in the state.

Unless it is a crime scene, only the NTSB can confiscate images of wreckage.  The photos are owned by CAP.  Now if you want to turn the pics over that is one thing, but if they "take them" they need a warrant. 
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What's up monkeys?
Duke Dillio
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2008, 01:39:08 AM »

^Might want to talk to a lawyer but I don't think that is exactly accurate there Mike.  If they ask you to turn over the disks, you can attempt to refuse.  That would be about the time that they arrest you for "Obstruction of Justice" or some other really nasty thing.  I'm sure some of the cops on here could explain some of this stuff.  It's something that I heard of a little while back so a refresher might be nice.  If they ask in an official capacity, you are required to turn over the pictures because it is evidence of a potential crime until they know otherwise.  I think then they said that you could be charged with obstruction and they will take your camera away because they now have probable cause to believe that you have now committed a crime.  I can't remember all the details.  It was in some briefing back in Colorado a few years back where we had a state trooper and some guy from the NTSB come out and give us some instruction.  I think your best bet would be to carry a spare and transfer everything to the spare.  They can wait while you do that.
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Jerry Jacobs
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2008, 03:02:23 AM »

I'm pretty sure it's on the suggested equipment list in the task guide.
Its acutally mandatory for a team to have a camera.
Quote from: Ground Team Task Guide O-0006
MANDATORY EQUIPMENT
Vehicle- Mounted FM transceiver
Handheld FM transceiver
Signal Panels, (2'x6'), 6
Water, 5 gallons
Blood Borne Pathogen Kit (s)
Shovel/E-Tool
Camera with film (instant preferred, 35mm
acceptable)
http://www.cap.gov/documents/u_052704140516.pdf
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2008, 03:43:52 PM »

You do anything you need to do to get to someone, Crime Scene, crash site, whatever, if it involves saving them.  Your not going to get in trouble.  If you can maybe select a different route to avoid something, do that.  As far as them taking your pictures, unless its a crime scene, LE isn't going to yank your camera.  Even if it is a crime scene, they will probably ask you, as I have in a few cases, to come back to HQ, and allow us to down load the photos we need.  If you refuse, then I take your camera, and if a warrant is needed to view them, your camera sits in evidence until its written. ;D
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MSgt Van
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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2008, 03:53:57 PM »

That's why I carry a "fubar" on my pack.
http://www.stanleyfubar.com/
If they're alive, or I'm not sure, I'm getting in.
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♠SARKID♠
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Unit: GLR-WI-002

Timmerman Composite Squadron - WIWG - CAP
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2008, 06:14:21 PM »

That's why I carry a "fubar" on my pack.
http://www.stanleyfubar.com/
If they're alive, or I'm not sure, I'm getting in.

We carry two extendable Halligan tools in the vehicle kits.
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           Capt. Dan Turkal
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IceNine
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« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2008, 08:00:32 PM »

Just think before you act.  Have everyone walk in a single file line in.  The med folks go in the others secure the area and start taking pics.  If you have evidence of life try to preserve the scene, and hightail it in there but remember these investigators are very well trained in recreation so even if you move something they can still recreate the scene, it may just take a little longer to do
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sardak
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2008, 01:49:05 AM »

Link to the NTSB brochure "Responding to an Aircraft Accident - How to Support the NTSB, A Guide For Police & Public Safety Personnel"
http://www.ntsb.gov/family/LEO_brochure.pdf

The document starts out "UPON COMPLETION OF LIFE SAFETY ACTIVITIES - Secure Scene and Preserve Evidence"  Then it gives specific instructions.

And specifically from federal law, 49CFR830.10(b):
(b) Prior to the time the Board or its authorized representative takes custody of aircraft wreckage, mail, or cargo, such wreckage, mail, or cargo may not be disturbed or moved except to the extent necessary:
    (1) To remove persons injured or trapped;
    (2) To protect the wreckage from further damage; or
    (3) To protect the public from injury.
    (c) Where it is necessary to move aircraft wreckage, mail or cargo, sketches, descriptive notes, and photographs shall be made, if possible, of the original positions and condition of the wreckage and any significant impact marks.

Mike
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gistek
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Posts: 137

« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2008, 02:47:29 PM »

If a LEO wants my cell phone, camera and/or memory card because I took photos of a  scene, I would tell them that they have to ask their Liason to contact the CAP Liason and Information Officers.

The main reason cameras and etc are confiscated is to prevent images from being broadcast. I doubt any well trained GT member would post or sell images they took, but the LEO's probably don't.

My biggest concern if I ever take a photo of a scene would be to make sure CAP and the NTSB gets the photos. To me the best way to insure that is to have the Information Officer (or the IO's MSA) gets the images immediately on my return.

and yes, I do believe I would be willing to be arrested over this.
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isuhawkeye
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2008, 03:04:17 PM »

And that is exactly why CAP has such a hard time integrating with "Legitimate" Rescue Services
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hatentx
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Posts: 320

« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2008, 04:09:00 PM »

Okay kinda with in the subject line.  I am in the Army and have gone through Combat Life Savers Course.  This course for those who don't know is teaching non medical troops enough to keep someone alive and to be an assistant to the medic if there is a medic on site.  We are trained on numerous things and all I would do at a accident scene but only one I would do in hesitation.  I know as not being a medical personal I can not issue medication such as IV fluids, unless it is to military personnel.   So now to my question.  Legally if I were to come up to a crash site and I, being trained to set up a saline lock, am I able to do so?  now that I am thinking as well if I were to find someone with tension pneumothorax would I be able to do the chest needle decompression.  I ask our medic and there thought was that id the have to knowledge to save a life they are going to do it.  I have the training but being wearing my CAP hat and not my Army hat or my personal hat what would be the best bet
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davidsinn
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2008, 04:24:03 PM »

If a LEO wants my cell phone, camera and/or memory card because I took photos of a  scene, I would tell them that they have to ask their Liason to contact the CAP Liason and Information Officers.

The main reason cameras and etc are confiscated is to prevent images from being broadcast. I doubt any well trained GT member would post or sell images they took, but the LEO's probably don't.

My biggest concern if I ever take a photo of a scene would be to make sure CAP and the NTSB gets the photos. To me the best way to insure that is to have the Information Officer (or the IO's MSA) gets the images immediately on my return.

and yes, I do believe I would be willing to be arrested over this.

I'm with him. I would not turn over my personal property to someone just because they think they have the power to take it from me. There is no reason they can not wait a few hours to get the images and I still get to take my camera home with me.
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David Sinn
Eclipse
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« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2008, 05:06:30 PM »

Okay kinda with in the subject line.  I am in the Army and have gone through Combat Life Savers Course.  This course for those who don't know is teaching non medical troops enough to keep someone alive and to be an assistant to the medic if there is a medic on site.  We are trained on numerous things and all I would do at a accident scene but only one I would do in hesitation.  I know as not being a medical personal I can not issue medication such as IV fluids, unless it is to military personnel.   So now to my question.  Legally if I were to come up to a crash site and I, being trained to set up a saline lock, am I able to do so?  now that I am thinking as well if I were to find someone with tension pneumothorax would I be able to do the chest needle decompression.  I ask our medic and there thought was that id the have to knowledge to save a life they are going to do it.  I have the training but being wearing my CAP hat and not my Army hat or my personal hat what would be the best bet

Spend some time with the search button and check out the CAP Health Services Yahoo Group.

This area is a cavern of gray and a minefield for members.

CAP is not a first responder agency, and is not charged with providing advanced life support, but the regs say members are allowed to provide assistance within their capabilities.

Anything more than that will drift this thread and there's plenty here already on this.
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isuhawkeye
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John's web site
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2008, 05:31:13 PM »

The short answer is no, you cant preform those things.

Ill try to explain why.

Advanced life support skills like starting IVs, and Decompressing a pneumo are simple to preform, but  they are considered medical procedures.  These procedures require the oversight, and direction of a physician.  In your army service your combat medics work under the oversight and direction of a (Battalion surgeon) medical director.  This medical director has established policies, and procedures for the treatment of troops.  This is very similar to the medical direction that has evolved in the civilian EMS world.  EMT's and Paramedics are blessed to preform skills by their medical director.

As a CLS working in CAP you have a few restrictions in front of you.

1.  You do not have a medical director as oversight

2.  The CLS does not have a correlation in the civilian health care system.  you are not recognized as more than a highly skilled bystander.

Sorry to be a downer on this, but those are the shakes
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hatentx
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Posts: 320

« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2008, 05:40:50 PM »

no thanks that is what I wanted to know.  I know I would feel horrible if I can into a situation and knew I could safe alive and have that moral delima in front of me.  But that is the answer I was looking for. 
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isuhawkeye
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John's web site
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2008, 05:47:56 PM »

I simply solve that problem by keeping my self out of those situations. 

If you dont carry ALS equipment you will not be put into a situation to make those game time situations
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hatentx
Seasoned Member

Posts: 320

« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2008, 06:06:04 PM »

yeah but then you have to wonder if you would have had the equipment could you have done more.  I have been there once before and diddnt have a correctly packet CLS bag.  Needless to say no IV tubing.  I just hate those situations.
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isuhawkeye
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John's web site
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2008, 08:07:56 PM »

Its not your fault that the system does not provide for the skills of its members.  You should take no responsibility for anything beyond the standards set forth by CAP, and the Air Force
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Johnny Yuma
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« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2008, 10:04:05 PM »

If a LEO wants my cell phone, camera and/or memory card because I took photos of a  scene, I would tell them that they have to ask their Liason to contact the CAP Liason and Information Officers.

The main reason cameras and etc are confiscated is to prevent images from being broadcast. I doubt any well trained GT member would post or sell images they took, but the LEO's probably don't.

My biggest concern if I ever take a photo of a scene would be to make sure CAP and the NTSB gets the photos. To me the best way to insure that is to have the Information Officer (or the IO's MSA) gets the images immediately on my return.

and yes, I do believe I would be willing to be arrested over this.

You've got to be f- ing joking me?!?!?!?!

In Kansas, the Kansas Highway Patrol is the lead investigating agency for all aviation accidents. They do the primary accident investigation and work with the NTSB/FAA, etc.

If my GT was the first on scene, the first question I'd ask the Trooper investigating is what format he wants my pics. My laptop goes on every mission, he can either get a CD burned or hand him the whole memory stick. SD ram is cheap, about $20/Gig.

The idea behind CAP is to find the target, keep the victims alive until the paid help gets there and assist them when they show up. It's not to win the Which Agency's people are more Anal contest.

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"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"
 
" Skip a bit, brother."
 
"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:
Eclipse
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« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2008, 10:11:41 PM »

^ I agree in principle, but not operationally.

Once things are sorted out and I have authorization from >my< superiors, whomever my people tell me should get the pictures can have them in whatever format they want that I can provide.

I would not hand my memory stick over to some random officer just because he asked.  He may have no more right to have them then I do (in an evidence sense).

We have internal rules to follow just like other agencies do, and commanders and liaisons who are trained and charged to deal with that - let them sort it out.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2008, 10:52:34 PM »

Seems to me that this should be something that should already be worked out and documented through a Wing supplement pr policy addressing the issue based on applicable state law. 
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2008, 11:02:55 PM »

^ I figure if we have an actual AFAM, and find the wreckage and occupant first, we are acting as a FED Agency, (The USAF AUX) which trumps local and State agencies, to include local cops.  We follow our internal procedures and AF guidance.  Plus, the COP wont be making and investigations findings or reports on the scene, everything he has will be confiscated by the NTSB the minute the investigator arrives.     
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What's up monkeys?
D2SK
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« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2008, 11:11:36 PM »

^ I figure if we have an actual AFAM, and find the wreckage and occupant first, we are acting as a FED Agency, (The USAF AUX) which trumps local and State agencies, to include local cops.  We follow our internal procedures and AF guidance.  Plus, the COP wont be making and investigations findings or reports on the scene, everything he has will be confiscated by the NTSB the minute the investigator arrives.     

You figure wrong.

You should probably read the MOU your Wing has with your State EOC.  Most county sheriffs have absolute jurisdiction over anything happening in their county...including SAR.
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Lighten up, Francis.
lordmonar
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« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2008, 11:28:24 PM »

Well, we are not talking about an actualy SAR situation...but an accident inestigation.

IIRC the NTSB has jurisdiction over most aircraft incedents.

Either way.....any pictures a CAP member taks of the crash site as a member of an ES team (as opposed to just a bystander) would/should be turned over to the appropriate authrities.

Can they just take them, the camera and memory too?   Not sure....but I certainly would not fight them over it.

If Officer Joe Blow asks for my pictures....I would first offer to down load them, just to save the hassel of getting CAP to reemburse me for the cost of the memory stick/camera.  I certainly would not refuse.....as that would be an obstruction charge.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Eclipse
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« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2008, 11:55:49 PM »

You should probably read the MOU your Wing has with your State EOC.  Most county sheriffs have absolute jurisdiction over anything happening in their county...including SAR.

Reading that MOU isn't a bad idea, but don't assume it addresses the issue at all, and certainly don't assume the Sheriff has any special jurisdiction.  This phenomenon seems to be more prevalent in rural areas and Western states.  My state's primary SAR agency is just another agency, not related to law enforcement.  Local PD, and maybe even the Sheriff might be onscene, but they don't have any special SAR powers, just local LE responsibilities.

Can they just take them, the camera and memory too?   Not sure....but I certainly would not fight them over it.

If Officer Joe Blow asks for my pictures....I would first offer to down load them, just to save the hassle of getting CAP to reimburse me for the cost of the memory stick/camera.  I certainly would not refuse.....as that would be an obstruction charge.

Assuming we're one big, happy, family, there should be no reason you shouldn't turn over evidence, through channels and with proper procedure, however one agency disputing whether another agency is entitled to the photos is far from "obstruction of justice" (again assuming you don't lie about them, destroy, or alter them).

For a local LEO to arrest a CAP member would have to be a situation where everyone involved is operating way outside the lines of both the law and common sense.  ANyone can charge anyone with anything, and an LEO can arrest you and charge you with whatever he wants but making that charge stick, once made, would be a different situation, and could very well be more trouble for the LEA than the member. (hopefully watch commanders would intervene, etc).

Territorial disputes between agencies are not uncommon, but as mikey says, in this case there is no question that we >are< acting as an instrumentality of the federal government.  Thankfully, the entirety of this is hypothetical and always will be for 99.9% of CAP members.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 12:01:50 AM by Eclipse » Logged


lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2008, 12:06:50 AM »

On the other side of the coin.....do we want to get into a urinary olymipics with the local PD/Sherriff over a bunch of photos?

Sure there may be procedures....but Officer Joe Blow only knows that some "dumb CAPer refused to give me the pictures"....and CAP does not get called out next mission.

If I were the GTL on site....I would give them up...make a note of it my log and report it up to the GBD.

Let the IC and his staff argue with the local guys about it.....that's what they get paid  ;D for.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2008, 12:38:21 AM »

This is probably another situation where it sounds simple on the face, but there are too many variables to really discuss it in much detail.

"not being called again" assumes they were the ones who called us in the first place, which is generally not how the call-outs happen in my parts.

AFRCC is sending us out and we'd likely be the ones calling local PD.

If your part of the universe has LEA's as the lead SAR agency, and they are calling you in, then the rules are different from the start.

At a minimum, though, this is probably not a bad discussion for unit and Group CC's to have up the chain to determine what the preferred course is in a respective state.

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lordmonar
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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2008, 01:26:04 AM »

Actually that would be the job of the Wing ES guys.

But yes....all of these relationships should be figured out before a mission.

My point is....how many relationships (inside and outside of CAP) are often driven by one CAP guy pissing off on guy in a supporting/requesting agency?

The key word here is cooperation.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
N Harmon
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Monroe Composite Squadron
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2008, 03:04:39 PM »

My point is....how many relationships (inside and outside of CAP) are often driven by one CAP guy pissing off on guy in a supporting/requesting agency?

It is a judgement call as to what CAP is willing to tolerate in maintaining those relationships. I wouldn't tolerate (for example), and would risk arrest to prevent anyone from commendering team members into helping remove victims' remains from a crash scene, fighting a fire, or whatever else.

But confiscating photographs does seem like something you just tolerate and then call up the IC and say, "you won't believe what this yahoo just did..."

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NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron
davidsinn
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« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2008, 03:53:13 PM »

It's not the images that I have a problem with. It's them taking my hardware is where I have the problem. They can wait a few hours so I can offload my camera.
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Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
isuhawkeye
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John's web site
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2008, 03:55:57 PM »

shoot pictures with a disposable ilm camera.  hand that over, or carry a second memory card to swap out.  you don't need copies o pictures any way.  the only immages should go to the investigators. 
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davidsinn
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« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2008, 04:03:24 PM »

The disposable makes a lot of sense. But the second mem card just wouldn't fly. I have a Sony Cybershot which takes Sony cards and are freaking expensive so I still wouldn't hand them over.
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Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
Al Sayre
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Mississippi Wing
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2008, 04:05:11 PM »

Simple solution, give the LEO what he asks for and ask him for a receipt for it.  If he has a problem with that get the IC on the horn and let him handle it.  Most LEO's are not going to have a problem giving you a receipt, especially if you make it clear that the purpose of the receipt is to maintain the chain of evidence.  That way you and he and everyone else knows that you gave him the pictures, or your equipment, and he is responsible for it until it is returned to you or he signs it in to evidence.  You can probably get the camera/memory stick back in a few hours after the photos are downloaded, and I'm sure that your IC will take steps to ensure that happens.
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
davidsinn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,021
Unit: NW-IN

« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2008, 04:11:39 PM »

I'll remember that. Thanks.
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Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
RiverAux
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« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2008, 05:58:42 PM »

Can anyone offer a first-person account of a law enforcement officer confiscating a CAP members camera because it had photos of an accident scene?  We can come up with all sorts of what-ifs, but it this was any sort of actual issue it would probably be in a regulation somewhere.

And just to throw another theorhetical wrench into the works -- could turning over CAP photographs taken on an AFAM to assist a LEO in a criminal investigation be considered violating our various LE-related restrictions?
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MikeD
Seasoned Member

Posts: 248

« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2008, 11:23:08 PM »

And just to throw another theorhetical wrench into the works -- could turning over CAP photographs taken on an AFAM to assist a LEO in a criminal investigation be considered violating our various LE-related restrictions?

Having worked for the government for a while, I'd say that can quite possibly happen.  This sounds like a question everyone should be asking their wing legal eagles about. 
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Al Sayre
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Posts: 2,515
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2008, 08:02:51 AM »

I think if you volunteered the photos, without permission of the IC, then your butt would be in a sling.  Let the IC make the call who gets the photos, he/she is (supposed to be) trained on what to do or at least know who to call in these kinds of situations.  I have the Wing Legal Officer on speed dial on my cell phone.

If a LEO demanded the photos, and you gave them to him, a good defense attorney could probably have them thrown out as evidence if the LEA wasn't the primary customer.

One caveat, we can and do provide photos to our customers on CD missions, but I'm not sure if they become part of the evidence or not.  Must be some grey areas that allow it, but it's above my paygrade...
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
isuhawkeye
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Posts: 1,311

John's web site
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2008, 08:06:05 AM »

ALL Search and Rescue Operations, and ALL death scenes are at some level criminal investigations.  

The scene material goes to the lead investigator on the scene.  I do nto know of any part of our country where CAP is responsibe for investigating accidents.  You guys find them.  When they are found you get help for the victims, and then you sit on them.  Until the appropriate jurisdiction comes along to investigate.  

I have worked 6 or 7 accidents in my day, and in only one of those was CAP included in the investigation,a and recovery of the aircraft, and that is because it was a CAP plane.
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RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,966

« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2008, 06:51:26 PM »

I don't think anyone is talking about CAP investigating the accident...the issue is what someone who is investigating the accident can demand of CAP members and what we can provide if requested or orderred to turn over photographs that we had taken as part of our find of the aircraft. 
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ammotrucker
Forum Regular

Posts: 141
Unit: SER-FL-370

« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2008, 08:14:51 PM »

In almost all cases an aircraft accident is classed a crime scene.  Therefore I would beleive that if law enforcement could and probably would ask or demand the photo's as a matter of showing exact placement of things.

I beleive that most of the LEO I know will return the images back to you in the end.

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RG Little, Capt
davidsinn
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Unit: NW-IN

« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2008, 08:51:28 PM »

I think you misunderstand my concern. I have zero issue with handing over images. That's why I'd take them. My issue comes when Officer Smith demands I hand over my hardware. That's where I draw the line. There is no reason they couldn't wait a few hours to get the images. That being said next time I go shopping I will be getting a disposable camera and that's what I'd hand over just as soon as I receive the OK from my chain of command(IC) which I imagine shouldn't take more than a few minutes.
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Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
isuhawkeye
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,311

John's web site
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2008, 08:55:41 PM »

My take:

Since you are not a LEO, and may, or may not have received documentable training in chain of custody an officer may or may not feel comfortable with the chain of custody being maintained as you leave to make a copy of your images.  If those images are brought into court their accountability from the scene becomes important.

One of our distinguished Officers on this board could provide their input


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Flying Pig
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Posts: 5,043

« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2008, 09:24:09 PM »

If they ask for your photos, give them up.  If you don't want to give them to the officer, don't take any.  More than likely, if nothing was moved, they could probably care less about the pictures you took and will take their own.  If you took photos because you had to move something, then they will probably want them.  Since most things are digital now, If I were the officer, I would just load your pics onto my laptop, a flash drive, or the Detectives would have the crime scene techs burn them onto a disc right there at the scene with you standing next to them and watching.
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sarflyer
Forum Regular

Posts: 179
Unit: NER-MA-001

« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2008, 09:26:26 PM »

I can talk from both sides.  As a police officer I wouldn't care if you were snapping photos.  Could they be evidence.  Yes but I'm going to call in my id section to snap the scene.    On that note if the officer in charge of the scene determined it was evidence, you better surrender it immediately unless you want to catch a charge of interfering with a police officer.   You don't have the right to make the officer wait until your chain of command approves.  They won't care and will take the camera by force if necessary.

Now, that determination may vary from state to state.  

I will give you a federal level situation as an example because we follow this in CT.  If an officer is standing on the sidewalk outside of a house and can see the 10 pounds of marijuana on your dining room table they have the right to enter by whatever means they want and secure that evidence.    It's called plain view.  The officer had a right to be where he was when he observed the item and recognized it as evidence which means he can go get it.  

Now as a CAP GTL  I would say we aren't there to document the scene.  1. Save lives.  2 Secure the scene until relieved by competent authority.    And don't disturb the scene unless it involves number 1.

Any questions?  
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