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November 16, 2018, 03:07:00 AM
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: NRA Marksman Awards
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Author Topic: NRA Marksman Awards  (Read 3125 times)
CAPLTC
Forum Regular

Posts: 161
Unit: MER

« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2018, 10:45:12 PM »

I agree! Yes, there are so many cool-guy instructors who claim Elite Operator status once upon a time... :)
I'm a credentialed shooting instructor and coach, in several national and international disciplines... and yes, agree ... most gun people are sadly lacking in the ability to succinctly instruct.  Not just everyone can instruct and coach (COACH) youth to shoot... 
Mandating an EMT be on-scene is excessive, but I do understand your point... however most squadrons don't have a staff EMT. Renting one is, again, excessive. Yes - CPR/AED etc should be mandatory for every event.
What kind of range are you running though?  I have never, in 100s of classes, and 100s of events, 1000s of practices seen anyone shot nor wounded ... that is unheard of.
Agree: an RSO is indeed for running a safe range, but not instructing...
This is my problem with the current program...
And why we should switch to SSSP. They may soon have their own qual badges.
The insurance aspect of SSSP is truly a huge plus.
It's a fast growing program... they just had the largest steel shooting match ever this summer.

Insurance is the main reason behind the certified Range Safety Officer, not to mention, how is MORE training to make CADETs SAFER in using firearms excessive? Not to mention making the ADULTS safer around the Cadets.

My issue with anyone who says its excessive has never been to court in an accidental shooting case, accidents happen, and the last thing I want to be apart of is a ragtag bunch who "had CPR a few years ago", and "I teach firearms stuff for boy scouts", or my favorite "I was a police officer/in military" (Hasn't been in police/military for 40 years not handled a weapon everyday in that time period) line of thinking. Handling firearms is not like riding a bike, these are perishable skills. Sticking feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken, neither does having once handled firearms a long time ago or just on the weekends make you qualified or "safe" with firearms.

I have had many "Firearms Instructors" teach courses at my range to be sorely disappointed in the instructors lack of weapons handling skills, and the ability to exchange information from their mind to the student in safe manner that isn't compromising safety.

In saying that, is the NRA RSO the "end all" qual needed to run the program? No it isn't. Do you HAVE to have it? No. But I myself will not be working around firearms and unverifiable skilled personnel that I may not know as well as I thought.

Is CPR/AED and First Aid required? No. But this should be a baseline skill you should know if you have kids, or work with Cadets. When does personnel responsibility for taking care of your loved ones or Cadets kick in? I won't be that guy who says "I didn't know what to do".

All in all, people who complain that more training is excessive because there lack of foresight is negating safety. I want myself Safe, my Cadets safe, and SM's safe and held accountable to a baseline standard of SAFETY and ABILITY.

I am also not going to be "that guy" who has to call the Wing King and tell them what happened, also explain that no one was certified in Range Safety or CPR? No thanks.
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"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they’re so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 843
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2018, 02:47:56 AM »

Why would CAP be interested in its own program when another organizaiton is happy to do it and
is successful at it?

Its skirting the intention of CAP's existence to involve firearms at all, let alone ramping up its own plan,
which probably brings with it all the risks with no real extra reward.

Right now it's a partnership of "Oh, you found a guy over there who said you can shoot?"  "Great, here's a medal."

Cadets like medals.  Everyone is happy.

I've never seen a single cadet who was interested in that medal not be able to get it.

What needs to change?

Eh. I’ve got a fundamental problem with wearing a uniform obtained from a different 501C organization. I like the idea of recognizing the skill. I like the idea of awarding a badge for it. But I also like the idea of the outside program resulting in a CAP award for a CAP uniform.

Going  W A Y,  W  A  Y back, CAP sed to have a Stewardess Badge.” (First time I heard about them, they got my attention. Not that i wanted one, but because my 14-year old mind started imagining what type of aircraft CAP had that needed “Stewardesses” and further visualization of colonels cross-crossing the country in DC-3s or whatever. Imagine my disappointment).

The only way to earn them was to be a female cadet who was selected for a CAP  Special Activity held at a “stewardess” training course sponsored by an airline. Instead of being allowed to wear American Airlines or TWA stewardess wings, graduates were awarded CAP stewardess wings created for that specific purpose. Looked like half of pilot wings.

I only knew one person who actually earned and wore them. And, she didn’t wear them for long - she got her pilot ticket.


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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
BraveRifles19D
Recruit

Posts: 43

« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2018, 06:30:39 PM »

I just like how people are arguing about being "too safe", lol! I'm a law enforcement firearms instructor and I wish we could have 1 instructor for each officer on the line. We have between 2-4 instructors for a 5 person firing line. Usually 3. And everyone is CPR/FA/AED certified, too.

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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2018, 11:42:23 PM »

Eh. I’ve got a fundamental problem with wearing a uniform obtained from a different 501C organization.

Even further to your point, I don't understand why we have any bling that's not from our organization. There are the AFA awards, military awards and decorations, and the NRA stuff just clutters and already cluttered landscape.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,314

« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2018, 12:20:05 AM »

Eh. I’ve got a fundamental problem with wearing a uniform obtained from a different 501C organization.

Even further to your point, I don't understand why we have any bling that's not from our organization. There are the AFA awards, military awards and decorations, and the NRA stuff just clutters and already cluttered landscape.

Well, the Air Force does not have any marksmanship badges. Just a ribbon if you shoot expert. And supposedly CAP follows the Air Force's lead on uniform stuff.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2018, 12:36:03 AM »

Well, the Air Force does not have any marksmanship badges. Just a ribbon if you shoot expert. And supposedly CAP follows the Air Force's lead on uniform stuff.

Quoth the Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksmanship_badges_(United_States)

"The U.S. Air Force awards Bronze EIC Badges (without wreath) to Airman who rank in the top 10% of competitors at a U.S. Air Force-approved competition; these competitions do not have to be CMP sanctioned. The Air Force Bronze EIC Badges with Wreath are awarded when six leg points have been earned in an authorized excellence category of competition and their Silver EIC Badges with Wreath when 20 leg points have been earned."




AFI-36-2903, Page 29 (and elsewhere) (updated SEPT 2018
"4.1.2.3.2. Duty, Missile, and Excellence-in-Competition Badges. With the exception
of the missile operations badge, wear of these badges is optional. If worn, duty
badges will be miniature in size (except when only one size badge is available). The
first duty badge will be centered on the wearer’s left ˝ inch below the bottom row of
medals. The second badge will be worn on the wearer’s right in the same relative
position as the badge worn on the wearer’s left. The missile or excellence-in-competition
badges are worn on the wearer’s left, ˝ inch below the bottom row of
medals.
Move any duty badge(s) to the wearer’s right side, in the same relative
position as the badge worn on the wearer’s left. The Presidential and/or Vice
Presidential Service Badge, will always be worn on the wearer’s right side. Note: See
paragraph 10.3 for additional information."


An argument could be made that this is similar to the CAP-NRA marksmanship badge in that
it is certified by an outside body, but worn on the uniform.

More detail:
http://www.myairforcelife.com/sports/shooting.aspx
http://www.airforceshooting.org/eicbadgsr.html
https://www.vandenberg.af.mil/News/Features/Display/Article/1246476/eic-program-a-historic-tradition/


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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,529

« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2018, 10:54:56 AM »

But that's a competition badge, not a qualification badge.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 482
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2018, 11:25:11 AM »

But that's a competition badge, not a qualification badge.
It IS a "marksmanship" badge.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,314

« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2018, 12:04:45 PM »

But that's a competition badge, not a qualification badge.
It IS a "marksmanship" badge.


And has anyone here ever seen one of those badges ever worn? I know that I never did in 31-1/2 years in the Air Force/Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve.
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,591
Unit: Classified

« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2018, 12:12:28 PM »

But that's a competition badge, not a qualification badge.
It IS a "marksmanship" badge.


And has anyone here ever seen one of those badges ever worn? I know that I never did in 31-1/2 years in the Air Force/Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve.

I have.  They are rare but they are out there and worn.
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,714

« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2018, 12:42:29 PM »

Wow! He was wrong and is trying to justify his mistake. Exactly what he decries in others!

I am not surprised.


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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,314

« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2018, 01:34:50 PM »

Wow! He was wrong and is trying to justify his mistake. Exactly what he decries in others!

I am not surprised.

Didn't make any mistake. I said I had never seen one worn, the other poster said he had but they were very rare.
So how is that a mistake?
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GroundHawg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 603

« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2018, 02:19:49 PM »

But that's a competition badge, not a qualification badge.
It IS a "marksmanship" badge.


And has anyone here ever seen one of those badges ever worn? I know that I never did in 31-1/2 years in the Air Force/Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve.

I wore two of them for every blues inspection for the better part of my career, as did my brother.

They are not as common in the USAF as they are in the Army and USMC where marksmanship is more of a culture.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,529

« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2018, 02:35:07 PM »

In the Army and Marine Corps, they're not a 'culture;' they're a qualifying element of basic training due to the intended "soldiering" taught for all soldiers and marines. Bottom line in those two branches is to prepare you for combat in the field which requires a weapons qual. So they'll get one of the badges if they complete boot. You also re-qual annually.

It's actually Army tradition for officers not to wear their marksmanship badge.

But we're talking about cadets here, guys...
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,314

« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2018, 02:36:46 PM »

But that's a competition badge, not a qualification badge.
It IS a "marksmanship" badge.


And has anyone here ever seen one of those badges ever worn? I know that I never did in 31-1/2 years in the Air Force/Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve.

I wore two of them for every blues inspection for the better part of my career, as did my brother.

They are not as common in the USAF as they are in the Army and USMC where marksmanship is more of a culture.


Oh, I had a Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon with a bronze star for shooting expert on more then one weapon (.38 cal revolver and the M-9).
Saw lots of those. Of course I was shooting the Aircrew Course of Fire. Which wasn't the hardest one out there...
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GroundHawg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 603

« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2018, 03:04:56 PM »

In the Army and Marine Corps, they're not a 'culture;' they're a qualifying element of basic training due to the intended "soldiering" taught for all soldiers and marines. Bottom line in those two branches is to prepare you for combat in the field which requires a weapons qual. So they'll get one of the badges if they complete boot. You also re-qual annually.

It's actually Army tradition for officers not to wear their marksmanship badge.

But we're talking about cadets here, guys...

You and I are not talking about the same badges. (I was Army prior to USAF). I believe, you are talking about the standard marksmanship badges that we all earned during basic and qualified for annually. I was referring to the EIC, Distinguished, and in the case of the USMC, competition badges.

These badges can be worn by Senior Members, unlike the NRA badges.

 
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,529

« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2018, 04:02:08 PM »

The reason the CMP badges can be worn by seniors is because they're still awarded by the Armed Forces, albeit through the CMP.

The Armed Forces do not award NRA badges, which is why seniors cannot wear it. The NRA badge is an easy-enough comparable qualifying award that cadets can attempt as an incentive to stay in the program and earn bling. That's really it.

If seniors want to earn non-CAP bling, they can join the military (and if they're too old or NPQ, they'll get over it).


I'm still somewhat confused here as to why the conversation has turned to discussing senior and military wear of weapons qual badges when the OP was asking where to get the cadets their badges from. Like most things CAP Talk, the topic has completely derailed to discuss something never even approached in the initial question.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,464
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2018, 04:26:52 PM »

Q asked; Q answered, with some usable amplifying info.

The train has arrived in Clarksville.

Click.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 04:29:55 PM by SarDragon » Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: NRA Marksman Awards
 


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