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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: NRA Marksman Awards
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Author Topic: NRA Marksman Awards  (Read 3128 times)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2018, 01:05:20 PM »

+1 - CAP doesn't even require CPR for ES, and the CPR /AED classes don't meet the mandate for
when FA is required.

Is there any way to receive the NRA award without going to Kansas Encampment?

Call your local NRA chapter or even gun range and ask about available qualified instructors.

It's usually done in groups at the squadron level for convenience, but it can be done 1-on-1 as well.
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Color Guard Rifleman
Forum Regular

Posts: 100
Unit: GLR-MI-265

Grand Rapids Metro Cadet Squadron
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2018, 01:22:59 PM »

So where is it written that is the requirement?  If it's stated verbally then it doesn't fly. 

I'm trained and have been trained to handle everything from a pellet gun to an M2.  And I teach my kids, friends and their kids to shoot. 

You talk about not wanting to have others who are "trained" because of their egos.  Sounds like yours is coming into play here.

Anyone handling firearms needs to be safe especially cadets got it.  But if you are being told that you need a 1:1 ratio to host the activity then you need to get that in writing or point to it in writing, since your worried about liability.

Again Uncle Sam and most LEO agencies don't run 1:1 and maybe thats an indicator of your ability as a instructor.

That is just one of the ways that I know.

+1 - CAP doesn't even require CPR for ES, and the CPR /AED classes don't meet the mandate for
when FA is required.

Is there any way to receive the NRA award without going to Kansas Encampment?

Call your local NRA chapter or even gun range and ask about available qualified instructors.

It's usually done in groups at the squadron level for convenience, but it can be done 1-on-1 as well.

Can a NRA member do it? Or does it have to be an instructor? What must one go through to get it?
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C/TSgt Killeen
GLR-MI-265 Cadet Public Affairs NCO                                        

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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,591
Unit: Classified

« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2018, 01:27:20 PM »

So where is it written that is the requirement?  If it's stated verbally then it doesn't fly. 

I'm trained and have been trained to handle everything from a pellet gun to an M2.  And I teach my kids, friends and their kids to shoot. 

You talk about not wanting to have others who are "trained" because of their egos.  Sounds like yours is coming into play here.

Anyone handling firearms needs to be safe especially cadets got it.  But if you are being told that you need a 1:1 ratio to host the activity then you need to get that in writing or point to it in writing, since your worried about liability.

Again Uncle Sam and most LEO agencies don't run 1:1 and maybe thats an indicator of your ability as a instructor.

That is just one of the ways that I know.

+1 - CAP doesn't even require CPR for ES, and the CPR /AED classes don't meet the mandate for
when FA is required.

Is there any way to receive the NRA award without going to Kansas Encampment?

Call your local NRA chapter or even gun range and ask about available qualified instructors.

It's usually done in groups at the squadron level for convenience, but it can be done 1-on-1 as well.

Can a NRA member do it? Or does it have to be an instructor? What must one go through to get it?

Eclipse answered this question.
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Color Guard Rifleman
Forum Regular

Posts: 100
Unit: GLR-MI-265

Grand Rapids Metro Cadet Squadron
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2018, 02:33:48 PM »

So where is it written that is the requirement?  If it's stated verbally then it doesn't fly. 

I'm trained and have been trained to handle everything from a pellet gun to an M2.  And I teach my kids, friends and their kids to shoot. 

You talk about not wanting to have others who are "trained" because of their egos.  Sounds like yours is coming into play here.

Anyone handling firearms needs to be safe especially cadets got it.  But if you are being told that you need a 1:1 ratio to host the activity then you need to get that in writing or point to it in writing, since your worried about liability.

Again Uncle Sam and most LEO agencies don't run 1:1 and maybe thats an indicator of your ability as a instructor.

That is just one of the ways that I know.

+1 - CAP doesn't even require CPR for ES, and the CPR /AED classes don't meet the mandate for
when FA is required.

Is there any way to receive the NRA award without going to Kansas Encampment?

Call your local NRA chapter or even gun range and ask about available qualified instructors.

It's usually done in groups at the squadron level for convenience, but it can be done 1-on-1 as well.

Can a NRA member do it? Or does it have to be an instructor? What must one go through to get it?

Eclipse answered this question.

I realize that. But I am asking for a more in-depth explanation. Can someone have a parent that is an NRA member do it?
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C/TSgt Killeen
GLR-MI-265 Cadet Public Affairs NCO                                        

See the source image 
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2018, 02:38:40 PM »

I realize that. But I am asking for a more in-depth explanation. Can someone have a parent that is an NRA member do it?

Yes, though from an integrity perspective that would not be a best-practice.

Since this confers nothing but a non-CAP medal, few would make an issue of it.
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ol'fido
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,889
Unit: DOTCOTE.

« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2018, 08:20:32 PM »

I ran a two day HAA activity for our squadron that gave our cadets the basic NRA rifle course and qualified 3 of them for NRA medals out of a group of 8 cadets and 3 seniors that took the course. We had 4 instructors and 4 cadets on the line at any one time. We just ran them in relays. Most of the instruction was classroom with about 3 hours of actual range time. Our instructors were from Revere's Riders(hitscount.org) and were also NRA qualified. In fact, this was our typical 2 day course that we run for the general public with students from 10-90+years old.

We completed the normal HAA paperwork with all the required supporting documentation plus I answered a long list of questions from the Wing CC. It went off without a hitch and all personnel were safe the entire time. We had no issues with firearms handling. In fact, the instructors who were not familiar with CAP before the event were highly impressed with the cadets courtesy, attentiveness, and safe conduct. We are planning on doing a repeat next spring.
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Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006
JayT
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,338

« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2018, 09:09:38 PM »

I am also not going to be "that guy" who has to call the Wing King and tell them what happened, also explain that no one was certified in Range Safety or CPR? No thanks.

Great, then just "don't be that guy", your range, your comfort zone, but don't expect everyone else to jump on
these types of expectations when all they do is make it harder to participate in something which is already difficult to arrange.

First Aid training and knowing how to push the buttons on an AED have literally nothing to so with firearms safety.

In fact, this kind of stipulation encourages the idea that firearm use is inherently dangerous, in and of itself, and if you believe that, you probably shouldn't be handling them.

I'm going through this thread and I gotta jump in here. I'm a TCCC/TECC/PHTLS certified paramedic assigned to a high volume fire house that see's penetrating trauma pretty regularly, and I'm trying to understand the logic of having everyone at the activity certified in first aid. What is the number of fire aider's required to attend to a single GSW? Or in this scenario, are multiple people catching rounds? Are we anticipating a shooting range MCI? Also, who is supplying the AED which is apparently critical in the treatment of small caliber close range penetrating trauma?
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"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."
imposter87
Recruit

Posts: 11

« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2018, 08:26:58 AM »

Actually, after re-reading this, the issue is clearly that the training is being run as a CAP activity.
    -Exactly, I run this program outside of CAP, and if I have SM's or Cadets that want to do it, then we just do it as a non-CAP activity if I can help it.


So where is it written that is the requirement?  If it's stated verbally then it doesn't fly. 
     -Agree, but like I said earlier in the post, part of it is due to insurance requirements, part verbal.

You talk about not wanting to have others who are "trained" because of their egos.  Sounds like yours is coming into play here.
     -Not really honestly, I am a "nobody" like everyone else, I am a "student" every day and learn from my students, & have never claimed to be "the best" and just like in a fight, there is always someone else at a
       higher level of training and ability than yourself. As I stated earlier in the post, it is the ones with ego issues that are careless and won't admit it, pointing out something I have experienced in the past on multiple
        occasions isn't an ego problem, its an issue with individual's mindset on their opinion on proper training I have an issue with. Just because you think your "there", doesn't mean you are. Then again being "trained"
        is a loose term itself, all I ask for out of my participants is to be able to handle firearms safely, nothing more, and meet set CAP requirements whether they be verbal or not, who cares do what you have to and get
         it done.

Anyone handling firearms needs to be safe especially cadets got it.  But if you are being told that you need a 1:1 ratio to host the activity then you need to get that in writing or point to it in writing, since your worried about liability.
      -When your livelihood is on the line, and it is your range/classroom/home, you have to worry about liability.
      -CAP age kids are usually really good with safety, more so than some SM's, which is one reason I don't understand why I need the 1:1. I agree 1:1 is too much for this program, were not running room entry tactics
         with live ammo.

Again Uncle Sam and most LEO agencies don't run 1:1 and maybe thats an indicator of your ability as a instructor.
       -Oh I know the ratios, then again this is just a personal attack at this point, why I don't know you. If you actually read the posts correctly I said that it is a 1:1 due to Wing verbal requirements, and I try to do what
          I am told, but I guess that shows your ability as a reader.  ;D


Look I don't know anyone on this thread, and don't know anyone here and there abilities to perform the very basic skills necessary to function on a static range course of fire. All I have done is told what is required of me due to insurance and wing requirements, regardless of verbal or not, I try my best to do what I am told. And regardless of what you can get away with and what is required to have me covered for insurance are two separate things. I could care a less how anyone else runs the program.

I just read the comment below from the TCCC Fire Guy, no it doesn't make sense considering penetrating trauma, which BFA doesn't address the full set of skills needed to stabilize said possible patient, but this "verbal policy" was set by someone with no medical background. Did I argue it? nope, I just do what I can to provide a program, totally agree with your comments on it. Logic and common sense are two separate things as you have pointed out. And you know as well as I do, those who make the rules aren't always in the know. I use to get frustrated about it, now I just move on and try to push forward.

I honestly think one maybe two First Aiders, and an RSO or two is plenty to address the program (personally), but I just think its crazy how many have commented about it being too much, how is more knowledge, experience & training a bad thing? Yes the requirements are overboard, but looking at it from their point of view of who set the "policy", who isn't trained in firearms and isn't trained EMS personnel, they will go overboard with it out of safety alone. Not going to question Wing Kings in their decision making processes. I know both of them, which is why I defend it. Both are great guys and serve CAP well.

I honestly give out the paperwork and books for free to local squadrons who are interested and tell them up front to do it at home if they have a safe place to shoot, some do others don't, so they go to local ranges in their areas and make it a non-CAP activity. I just provide Answer to their Questions if they have them. If they want to do it as a HAA, I let them know how we have to do it if we go that route. It has its ups and downs for participation in the training classes, but it always works out for the best.
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Captain
Current: Sq. CC

Former: Sq. CC, WG ESTO, DPD
Completed: SLS,CLC,IGSC

NREMT, HAZMAT Tech, ATO, BLS-IT
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,591
Unit: Classified

« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2018, 09:27:07 AM »

Actually, after re-reading this, the issue is clearly that the training is being run as a CAP activity.
    -Exactly, I run this program outside of CAP, and if I have SM's or Cadets that want to do it, then we just do it as a non-CAP activity if I can help it.


So where is it written that is the requirement?  If it's stated verbally then it doesn't fly. 
     -Agree, but like I said earlier in the post, part of it is due to insurance requirements, part verbal.

You talk about not wanting to have others who are "trained" because of their egos.  Sounds like yours is coming into play here.
     -Not really honestly, I am a "nobody" like everyone else, I am a "student" every day and learn from my students, & have never claimed to be "the best" and just like in a fight, there is always someone else at a
       higher level of training and ability than yourself. As I stated earlier in the post, it is the ones with ego issues that are careless and won't admit it, pointing out something I have experienced in the past on multiple
        occasions isn't an ego problem, its an issue with individual's mindset on their opinion on proper training I have an issue with. Just because you think your "there", doesn't mean you are. Then again being "trained"
        is a loose term itself, all I ask for out of my participants is to be able to handle firearms safely, nothing more, and meet set CAP requirements whether they be verbal or not, who cares do what you have to and get
         it done.

Anyone handling firearms needs to be safe especially cadets got it.  But if you are being told that you need a 1:1 ratio to host the activity then you need to get that in writing or point to it in writing, since your worried about liability.
      -When your livelihood is on the line, and it is your range/classroom/home, you have to worry about liability.
      -CAP age kids are usually really good with safety, more so than some SM's, which is one reason I don't understand why I need the 1:1. I agree 1:1 is too much for this program, were not running room entry tactics
         with live ammo.

Again Uncle Sam and most LEO agencies don't run 1:1 and maybe thats an indicator of your ability as a instructor.
       -Oh I know the ratios, then again this is just a personal attack at this point, why I don't know you. If you actually read the posts correctly I said that it is a 1:1 due to Wing verbal requirements, and I try to do what
          I am told, but I guess that shows your ability as a reader.  ;D


Look I don't know anyone on this thread, and don't know anyone here and there abilities to perform the very basic skills necessary to function on a static range course of fire. All I have done is told what is required of me due to insurance and wing requirements, regardless of verbal or not, I try my best to do what I am told. And regardless of what you can get away with and what is required to have me covered for insurance are two separate things. I could care a less how anyone else runs the program.

I just read the comment below from the TCCC Fire Guy, no it doesn't make sense considering penetrating trauma, which BFA doesn't address the full set of skills needed to stabilize said possible patient, but this "verbal policy" was set by someone with no medical background. Did I argue it? nope, I just do what I can to provide a program, totally agree with your comments on it. Logic and common sense are two separate things as you have pointed out. And you know as well as I do, those who make the rules aren't always in the know. I use to get frustrated about it, now I just move on and try to push forward.

I honestly think one maybe two First Aiders, and an RSO or two is plenty to address the program (personally), but I just think its crazy how many have commented about it being too much, how is more knowledge, experience & training a bad thing? Yes the requirements are overboard, but looking at it from their point of view of who set the "policy", who isn't trained in firearms and isn't trained EMS personnel, they will go overboard with it out of safety alone. Not going to question Wing Kings in their decision making processes. I know both of them, which is why I defend it. Both are great guys and serve CAP well.

I honestly give out the paperwork and books for free to local squadrons who are interested and tell them up front to do it at home if they have a safe place to shoot, some do others don't, so they go to local ranges in their areas and make it a non-CAP activity. I just provide Answer to their Questions if they have them. If they want to do it as a HAA, I let them know how we have to do it if we go that route. It has its ups and downs for participation in the training classes, but it always works out for the best.

Dude if the message isn't being received as intended that is on you the sender not the receiver.

You keep touting insurance and wing reqs.  Well taking what you say at face value I'd be doing some more digging and a verbal req isn't going to help you in court. 

I guess maybe the folks who teach out here are either stupid in what they do, nore proficient or just straight up lucky.

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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2018, 09:46:10 AM »

Since there is no regulation that applies, my next question would be "what insurance?".

CAP is self-insured.
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,591
Unit: Classified

« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2018, 09:54:39 AM »

Since there is no regulation that applies, my next question would be "what insurance?".

CAP is self-insured.

Most states require gun ranges and instructors to carry liability insurance in order to function.  The lowest I have seen for a range is 1M. 
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2018, 10:04:04 AM »

Since there is no regulation that applies, my next question would be "what insurance?".

CAP is self-insured.

Most states require gun ranges and instructors to carry liability insurance in order to function.  The lowest I have seen for a range is 1M.

I'm sure.  1MM is probably low, but that has nothing to do with CAP or the directives from a Wing CC on how to run the activity.

In fact, a requirment for additional training to participate probably opens up the members to additional liability should there be an accident.
"Your required training shows you should have known better."
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,591
Unit: Classified

« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2018, 11:12:17 AM »

Since there is no regulation that applies, my next question would be "what insurance?".

CAP is self-insured.

Most states require gun ranges and instructors to carry liability insurance in order to function.  The lowest I have seen for a range is 1M.

I'm sure.  1MM is probably low, but that has nothing to do with CAP or the directives from a Wing CC on how to run the activity.

In fact, a requirment for additional training to participate probably opens up the members to additional liability should there be an accident.
"Your required training shows you should have known better."

1M was the lowest I have seen required.  Everytime I'm at the range there is usally some class going on and I hardly ever see a 1:1 ratio. 

A 1:1 ratio to me seems overbearing and absent written policy at face value to me seems like an unneccessary roadblock to the activity. 

I know CAWG at there encampments typically have some range time there and I'm sure PHall or Ned will correct that if it's wrong.

In my 20 years axtive duty I've never seen us have 1:1 nor am I aware of any LE Agency doing the same. 

The poster says its a wing verbal req which to me is a red flag and a need to cya and an insurance requirement.  Again taking it at face value it's his daily source of income.
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GroundHawg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 603

« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2018, 11:23:39 AM »

I do not assess that merely being an NRA RSO should be the baseline adult training standard for running a cadet range.
Long-term, I'd like to see CAP dump the NRA quals and follow the path the Sea Cadets are taking with going to the Scholastic Shooting Sports Foundation for qualifications.

Never gonna fly.  I see patches and pins, but no medals.  CAP likes medals.

CAP could make its own medals. Then develop an “equivalency chart.” Get Expert through NRA, submit it for conversion to the CAP Expert badge. Give a similar deal for Scholastic Shooting Sports Foundation, concerting their patches, pins and geegaws to a CAP equivalency and badge.

In fact, do that with skydiver qualifications, too. Five jumps overseen by the American Association of Whomever Keeps Track of This Stuff and get a CAP parachutist badge.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The CMP, NRA, and JROTC run a program really close to this and it seems to work great for them. Maybe CAP could cut and paste a similar program?

Also, I would like to see the CMP Civilian EIC and Distinguished Marksmanship badges authorized for CAP wear. The requirements to earn them are exactly the same as the military, the only difference being civilian status and that military can only enter 3 EIC matches per year, where a civilian can enter 5.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2018, 11:39:31 AM »

Why would CAP be interested in its own program when another organizaiton is happy to do it and
is successful at it?

Its skirting the intention of CAP's existence to involve firearms at all, let alone ramping up its own plan,
which probably brings with it all the risks with no real extra reward.

Right now it's a partnership of "Oh, you found a guy over there who said you can shoot?"  "Great, here's a medal."

Cadets like medals.  Everyone is happy.

I've never seen a single cadet who was interested in that medal not be able to get it.

What needs to change?
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,529

« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2018, 01:45:09 PM »

Its skirting the intention of CAP's existence to involve firearms at all...

I disagree here.

CAP's existence does not warrant the need for the use of firearms. But neither does any other youth organization, really, with the exception of youth rifle clubs/associations (such as those under the NRA).

JROTC has no need to carry weapons. The Cadet Program has no need to carry weapons. The CAP "senior program" has no need to carry weapons. The Sea Cadet Corps has no need to carry weapons. And so forth (I'll throw summer camp in there).

But that doesn't mean weapons training/familiarization has to be excluded from these organizations, particularly for youth. Many youth organizations have had a long standing practice of permitting firearms training with no practical need to do so, as they aren't combatant corps. They use it as a training tool for safety awareness, discipline, and skill. Some include it as an appreciation of Constitutional rights. And let's not get into that debate either, please.

There is nothing in "CAP's existence" that presents a need for firearms inclusion. But there is also nothing in "CAP's existence" that makes a stance in opposition of firearms.

The Cadet Program does not existence to "provide search and rescue," if that's the suggestive nature of the 'existence' point. That's not the mission of the CAP Cadet Program.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2018, 01:59:10 PM »

Its skirting the intention of CAP's existence to involve firearms at all...

I disagree here.

CAP's existence does not warrant the need for the use of firearms. But neither does any other youth organization, really, with the exception of youth rifle clubs/associations (such as those under the NRA).

JROTC has no need to carry weapons. The Cadet Program has no need to carry weapons. The CAP "senior program" has no need to carry weapons. The Sea Cadet Corps has no need to carry weapons. And so forth (I'll throw summer camp in there).

CAP's charter and mission specifically indicates "CAP's services to the nation and the USAF are: (1) voluntary, (2) benevolent, and (3) noncombatant. (See CAPP 50-5)

The CFR covering JROTC specifically indicates that it is intended to explore "military art" as well as the "dual roles of citizen soldier / soldier citizen", which would include
the use of firearms.

Similar organizations like the BSA are intended for general life skills orientation, with a focus on field craft, etc.

For me, personally, I wish CAP did more general life skills stuff, but there are only so many hours in the day.
With that said, I've had more then one mom, not to mention members over the years, ask me how firearms training jives with being a benevolent noncombatant.
Raising the question doesn't mean CAP just stops doing it, but it is a fair point, and that's why CAP should stay out of the
direct training business and just continue to recognize "other".
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 02:06:00 PM by Eclipse » Logged


NIN
Super Moderator

Posts: 4,980
Unit: of issue

« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2018, 02:47:19 PM »

firearm != combat.

 just saying.

Marksmanship is a skill, and, in turns, a "martial" art. But when its paper punching, its still just a skill.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,529

« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2018, 03:10:40 PM »

Let's not get into a debate over the mechanical use of the terms "rifle," "weapon," "gun," and "firearm."

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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2018, 03:36:05 PM »

Let's not get into a debate over the mechanical use of the terms "rifle," "weapon," "gun," and "firearm."

OK, but what about knifey-spoony?
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