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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: NRA Marksman Awards
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Author Topic: NRA Marksman Awards  (Read 3130 times)
Casey Peterson
Recruit

Posts: 6
Unit: NCR-MN-010

« on: October 23, 2018, 02:33:31 PM »

does anyone know where I can purchase NRA marksmanship awards for civil air patrol cadets, I have recently done the course with some of my cadets and can’t seem to find any available for purchase.
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,888

« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2018, 02:38:33 PM »

Have you tried the NRA?
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
SARDOC
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,431

« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2018, 02:59:36 PM »

https://materials.nrahq.org/qualificationawards.html?cat=65
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jebaugh
Recruit

Posts: 12
Unit: PCR-AK-071

« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2018, 11:14:25 PM »

It is through the NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program (MQP), they have all the medals and certificates, etc. on their website
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2d Lt Jake Baugh
Asst Director Cadet Programs
CAC Senior Advisor
Alaska Wing, CAP
imposter87
Recruit

Posts: 11

« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2018, 07:12:18 AM »

I am currently doing this program myself for CAP members. I am a certified NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Instructor, & AHA BLS Instructor.

I do this program for two wings, TN and AL. The requirements that were set forth by both wing CC's since I live in TN but part of ALWG, is that I must have a 1:1 ratio of Range Safety Officers to Cadets, and have myself on the range also as the Chief RSO if we do it as a legit CAP activity. Which I do. If its not sanctioned then of course they can shoot whatever and with whoever they want whenever they want.

You DO NOT have to have a certified Firearms Instructor to put on this program, nor do you have to have your own gun range. These are actually the standards I suggested to both wings to be safe, along with making sure all SM's and any other Cadets that wanted to participate to have CPR/AED & First Aid.

I suggest going to nraisntructors.org and find an RSO course near you and take it, the RSO course is 9 hours of safety, range layout, firearms handling, firearms mechanics, etc.

Also, just to make sure, you do not have to have any NRA personnel available to sign off on certificates, you can buy the materials all day long right now yourself. BUT, if you have a Cadet that wants to shoot for Distinguished Expert, an Active NRA Instructor MUST sign off on the paperwork saying that he witnessed the Cadet shoot the course of fire. Otherwise it technically won't be valid or published on the list with the NRA.
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Captain
Current: Sq. CC

Former: Sq. CC, WG ESTO, DPD
Completed: SLS,CLC,IGSC

NREMT, HAZMAT Tech, ATO, BLS-IT
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,529

« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2018, 01:44:08 PM »

I do this program for two wings, TN and AL. The requirements that were set forth by both wing CC's since I live in TN but part of ALWG, is that I must have a 1:1 ratio of Range Safety Officers to Cadets, and have myself on the range also as the Chief RSO if we do it as a legit CAP activity. Which I do. If its not sanctioned then of course they can shoot whatever and with whoever they want whenever they want.

This seems excessive.

Is there a published directive on that? Solely out of curiosity, since this isn't applicable to my Wing, but I checked the ALWG site and could not find any such directive. Was is part of their approval for the single firearms training activity?


Quote
You DO NOT have to have a certified Firearms Instructor to put on this program, nor do you have to have your own gun range. These are actually the standards I suggested to both wings to be safe, along with making sure all SM's and any other Cadets that wanted to participate to have CPR/AED & First Aid.

Why should every person need to have it?

I understand if you have one or two non-participating supervisors/observers with CPR/AED/First Aid certification, but not every person there. That seems excessive as well.
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CAPLTC
Forum Regular

Posts: 161
Unit: MER

« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2018, 09:59:47 PM »

I do not assess that merely being an NRA RSO should be the baseline adult training standard for running a cadet range.
Long-term, I'd like to see CAP dump the NRA quals and follow the path the Sea Cadets are taking with going to the Scholastic Shooting Sports Foundation for qualifications.

I understand if you have one or two non-participating supervisors/observers with CPR/AED/First Aid certification, but not every person there. That seems excessive as well.
It is excessive.
I have been coaching shooting for 23 years and never seen an accident involving a firearm.
I HAVE, however, seen sprains walking to and from the latrine...
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"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they’re so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2018, 10:34:54 PM »

I do not assess that merely being an NRA RSO should be the baseline adult training standard for running a cadet range.
Long-term, I'd like to see CAP dump the NRA quals and follow the path the Sea Cadets are taking with going to the Scholastic Shooting Sports Foundation for qualifications.

Never gonna fly.  I see patches and pins, but no medals.  CAP likes medals.

I understand if you have one or two non-participating supervisors/observers with CPR/AED/First Aid certification, but not every person there. That seems excessive as well.
It is excessive.
I have been coaching shooting for 23 years and never seen an accident involving a firearm.
I HAVE, however, seen sprains walking to and from the latrine...

At the risk of tempting fate, I would have to agree.  In the unlikely event of a firearms accident
someone with CAP-level first aid isn't going to be much help beyond "applying pressure".

With that said, AFAIC, an individual instructor should be allowed to set any mandate he wants,
but not set that expectation for the entire organizaiton.
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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 843
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2018, 03:09:53 AM »

I do not assess that merely being an NRA RSO should be the baseline adult training standard for running a cadet range.
Long-term, I'd like to see CAP dump the NRA quals and follow the path the Sea Cadets are taking with going to the Scholastic Shooting Sports Foundation for qualifications.

Never gonna fly.  I see patches and pins, but no medals.  CAP likes medals.

CAP could make its own medals. Then develop an “equivalency chart.” Get Expert through NRA, submit it for conversion to the CAP Expert badge. Give a similar deal for Scholastic Shooting Sports Foundation, concerting their patches, pins and geegaws to a CAP equivalency and badge.

In fact, do that with skydiver qualifications, too. Five jumps overseen by the American Association of Whomever Keeps Track of This Stuff and get a CAP parachutist badge.



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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
imposter87
Recruit

Posts: 11

« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2018, 08:32:06 AM »

Insurance is the main reason behind the certified Range Safety Officer, not to mention, how is MORE training to make CADETs SAFER in using firearms excessive? Not to mention making the ADULTS safer around the Cadets.

My issue with anyone who says its excessive has never been to court in an accidental shooting case, accidents happen, and the last thing I want to be apart of is a ragtag bunch who "had CPR a few years ago", and "I teach firearms stuff for boy scouts", or my favorite "I was a police officer/in military" (Hasn't been in police/military for 40 years not handled a weapon everyday in that time period) line of thinking. Handling firearms is not like riding a bike, these are perishable skills. Sticking feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken, neither does having once handled firearms a long time ago or just on the weekends make you qualified or "safe" with firearms.

I have had many "Firearms Instructors" teach courses at my range to be sorely disappointed in the instructors lack of weapons handling skills, and the ability to exchange information from their mind to the student in safe manner that isn't compromising safety.

In saying that, is the NRA RSO the "end all" qual needed to run the program? No it isn't. Do you HAVE to have it? No. But I myself will not be working around firearms and unverifiable skilled personnel that I may not know as well as I thought.

Is CPR/AED and First Aid required? No. But this should be a baseline skill you should know if you have kids, or work with Cadets. When does personnel responsibility for taking care of your loved ones or Cadets kick in? I won't be that guy who says "I didn't know what to do".

All in all, people who complain that more training is excessive because there lack of foresight is negating safety. I want myself Safe, my Cadets safe, and SM's safe and held accountable to a baseline standard of SAFETY and ABILITY.

I am also not going to be "that guy" who has to call the Wing King and tell them what happened, also explain that no one was certified in Range Safety or CPR? No thanks.
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Captain
Current: Sq. CC

Former: Sq. CC, WG ESTO, DPD
Completed: SLS,CLC,IGSC

NREMT, HAZMAT Tech, ATO, BLS-IT
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2018, 10:07:58 AM »

I am also not going to be "that guy" who has to call the Wing King and tell them what happened, also explain that no one was certified in Range Safety or CPR? No thanks.

Great, then just "don't be that guy", your range, your comfort zone, but don't expect everyone else to jump on
these types of expectations when all they do is make it harder to participate in something which is already difficult to arrange.

First Aid training and knowing how to push the buttons on an AED have literally nothing to so with firearms safety.

In fact, this kind of stipulation encourages the idea that firearm use is inherently dangerous, in and of itself, and if you believe that, you probably shouldn't be handling them.
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,591
Unit: Classified

« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2018, 10:12:01 AM »

The mil doesn't run 1:1 for weapons quals.  So do you cancel rhe event if you don't mee the qouta?  Is this a legit wing requirement written somewhere and approved or is this a personal req? 

Now I will agree that more training in the weapons realm is a good thing however I think that's going overboard.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,529

« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2018, 11:42:53 AM »

Is this a legit wing requirement written somewhere and approved or is this a personal req? 

This was my question (still unanswered).

Quote
Now I will agree that more training in the weapons realm is a good thing however I think that's going overboard.

This was my point.
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imposter87
Recruit

Posts: 11

« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2018, 12:05:00 PM »

The mil doesn't run 1:1 for weapons quals.  So do you cancel the event if you don't meet the qouta?  Is this a legit wing requirement written somewhere and approved or is this a personal req? 
   
     -That is what I was told I have to run it at, no, If I only have two RSO's then its just two Cadets that shoot at any given time, takes longer but meets the requirement.
     -I have done this program with so called "trained" individuals, but I don't do it anymore due to they don't want their usually old or outdated training questioned due to pride, and end up being careless with loaded
        weapons. I am not about to be shot, or watch someone else be shot.

Great, then just "don't be that guy", your range, your comfort zone, but don't expect everyone else to jump on
these types of expectations when all they do is make it harder to participate in something which is already difficult to arrange.
   
     -I don't shoot at my range per say, wherever we can get it done that is easy to get Cadets to join in.
     -It is not hard to schedule on the weekends, just hard to get SM's to want to do the RSO course, or CPR
     -I can literally teach the RSO and CPR course in a 12 hour day, SM's say they are too busy to give up one day. Understood, but don't complain that you want to help and aren't willing to jump through a 1-day
        hoop...then again, you can't people to do SLS, or CLC, or teach the course for that matter, so I can understand the point.
     -Easy to say "don't be that guy" but if your an adult dealing with children, you WILL be held accountable to some degree if there is an accident more than likely if someone is seriously injured whether criminal
        or civil. Angry Parents, angry Wing CC's, oh I imagine the Director of Safety looks into it also.

In fact, this kind of stipulation encourages the idea that firearm use is inherently dangerous, in and of itself, and if you believe that, you probably shouldn't be handling them.
     -If anyone is ignorant enough to believe that meeting a minimum bare-bones requirement of RSO and CPR/AED/BFA, then they don't need to be handling firearms either, much less if they believe them to be
        dangerous in the right hands.
     -My issue is with the ones who believe they are safe, and really not. But they won't let there pride down enough to admit they need more training. Pridefulness leads to ignorant and careless mistakes when it
         comes to safe firearms handling.

Regardless of opinion of what should be done vs what is done is something we could speak about all day. Fact is if I put on the program, the KID'S PARENTS (Cadets) know that every adult on that range has met a baseline minimum of CURRENT & ACTIVE certifications. Don't know about anyone else, but if my kid gets around an adult with a gun, I want KNOW, not think or assume that adult is competent to a degree.

I would want my childs safety to come FIRST not 2nd to PRIDE of not wanting to complete the necessary certs to help Cadets.

And it is easier than you think to get SM's involved in this if they like guns, I have trained quite a few CAP personnel as RSO's, which also doubles over for BSA if they participate in BSA also.


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Captain
Current: Sq. CC

Former: Sq. CC, WG ESTO, DPD
Completed: SLS,CLC,IGSC

NREMT, HAZMAT Tech, ATO, BLS-IT
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2018, 12:14:48 PM »

Actually, after re-reading this, the issue is clearly that the training is being run as a CAP activity.

That's the issue, and why the majority of Wings simply simply do not do it this way.

CAP is not in the business of providing firearms training to its members, it simply recognizes
awards presented by another organization. 

Turning it into a CAP-sponsored HAA is an unnecessary risk the organization doesn't need,
and which just adds 12 levels of hoops for a cadet to earn their badge, which is the whole point to start with.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 12:21:08 PM by Eclipse » Logged


Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,714

« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2018, 12:44:15 PM »

I just want to point out after reading three or four messages stating to have RSO + CPR. Remember that CPR=/=First Aid.

In other words, RSO + CPR =/= RSO + First Aid! Even better would be RSO + CPR + First Aid.

I am a squadron Safety Officer, and I teach the American Heart Association BLS for the Professional, CPR AED, and First Aid classes.




« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 01:02:02 PM by Luis R. Ramos » Logged
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2018, 12:52:16 PM »

+1 - CAP doesn't even require CPR for ES, and the CPR /AED classes don't meet the mandate for
when FA is required.
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Color Guard Rifleman
Forum Regular

Posts: 100
Unit: GLR-MI-265

Grand Rapids Metro Cadet Squadron
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2018, 12:55:48 PM »

+1 - CAP doesn't even require CPR for ES, and the CPR /AED classes don't meet the mandate for
when FA is required.

Is there any way to receive the NRA award without going to Kansas Encampment?
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C/TSgt Killeen
GLR-MI-265 Cadet Public Affairs NCO                                        

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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,591
Unit: Classified

« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2018, 12:57:30 PM »

So where is it written that is the requirement?  If it's stated verbally then it doesn't fly. 

I'm trained and have been trained to handle everything from a pellet gun to an M2.  And I teach my kids, friends and their kids to shoot. 

You talk about not wanting to have others who are "trained" because of their egos.  Sounds like yours is coming into play here.

Anyone handling firearms needs to be safe especially cadets got it.  But if you are being told that you need a 1:1 ratio to host the activity then you need to get that in writing or point to it in writing, since your worried about liability.

Again Uncle Sam and most LEO agencies don't run 1:1 and maybe thats an indicator of your ability as a instructor.
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,591
Unit: Classified

« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2018, 12:58:16 PM »

+1 - CAP doesn't even require CPR for ES, and the CPR /AED classes don't meet the mandate for
when FA is required.

Is there any way to receive the NRA award without going to Kansas Encampment?

You can earn it outside of CAP you just have to provide proof of the award to wear it.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: NRA Marksman Awards
 


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