CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: Casey Peterson on October 23, 2018, 02:33:31 PM

Title: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Casey Peterson on October 23, 2018, 02:33:31 PM
does anyone know where I can purchase NRA marksmanship awards for civil air patrol cadets, I have recently done the course with some of my cadets and can’t seem to find any available for purchase.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: THRAWN on October 23, 2018, 02:38:33 PM
Have you tried the NRA?
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: SARDOC on October 23, 2018, 02:59:36 PM
https://materials.nrahq.org/qualificationawards.html?cat=65
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: jebaugh on October 23, 2018, 11:14:25 PM
It is through the NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program (MQP), they have all the medals and certificates, etc. on their website
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: imposter87 on October 31, 2018, 07:12:18 AM
I am currently doing this program myself for CAP members. I am a certified NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Instructor, & AHA BLS Instructor.

I do this program for two wings, TN and AL. The requirements that were set forth by both wing CC's since I live in TN but part of ALWG, is that I must have a 1:1 ratio of Range Safety Officers to Cadets, and have myself on the range also as the Chief RSO if we do it as a legit CAP activity. Which I do. If its not sanctioned then of course they can shoot whatever and with whoever they want whenever they want.

You DO NOT have to have a certified Firearms Instructor to put on this program, nor do you have to have your own gun range. These are actually the standards I suggested to both wings to be safe, along with making sure all SM's and any other Cadets that wanted to participate to have CPR/AED & First Aid.

I suggest going to nraisntructors.org and find an RSO course near you and take it, the RSO course is 9 hours of safety, range layout, firearms handling, firearms mechanics, etc.

Also, just to make sure, you do not have to have any NRA personnel available to sign off on certificates, you can buy the materials all day long right now yourself. BUT, if you have a Cadet that wants to shoot for Distinguished Expert, an Active NRA Instructor MUST sign off on the paperwork saying that he witnessed the Cadet shoot the course of fire. Otherwise it technically won't be valid or published on the list with the NRA.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: TheSkyHornet on October 31, 2018, 01:44:08 PM
I do this program for two wings, TN and AL. The requirements that were set forth by both wing CC's since I live in TN but part of ALWG, is that I must have a 1:1 ratio of Range Safety Officers to Cadets, and have myself on the range also as the Chief RSO if we do it as a legit CAP activity. Which I do. If its not sanctioned then of course they can shoot whatever and with whoever they want whenever they want.

This seems excessive.

Is there a published directive on that? Solely out of curiosity, since this isn't applicable to my Wing, but I checked the ALWG site and could not find any such directive. Was is part of their approval for the single firearms training activity?


Quote
You DO NOT have to have a certified Firearms Instructor to put on this program, nor do you have to have your own gun range. These are actually the standards I suggested to both wings to be safe, along with making sure all SM's and any other Cadets that wanted to participate to have CPR/AED & First Aid.

Why should every person need to have it?

I understand if you have one or two non-participating supervisors/observers with CPR/AED/First Aid certification, but not every person there. That seems excessive as well.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: CAPLTC on October 31, 2018, 09:59:47 PM
I do not assess that merely being an NRA RSO should be the baseline adult training standard for running a cadet range.
Long-term, I'd like to see CAP dump the NRA quals and follow the path the Sea Cadets are taking with going to the Scholastic Shooting Sports Foundation for qualifications.

I understand if you have one or two non-participating supervisors/observers with CPR/AED/First Aid certification, but not every person there. That seems excessive as well.
It is excessive.
I have been coaching shooting for 23 years and never seen an accident involving a firearm.
I HAVE, however, seen sprains walking to and from the latrine...
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Eclipse on October 31, 2018, 10:34:54 PM
I do not assess that merely being an NRA RSO should be the baseline adult training standard for running a cadet range.
Long-term, I'd like to see CAP dump the NRA quals and follow the path the Sea Cadets are taking with going to the Scholastic Shooting Sports Foundation for qualifications.

Never gonna fly.  I see patches and pins, but no medals.  CAP likes medals.

I understand if you have one or two non-participating supervisors/observers with CPR/AED/First Aid certification, but not every person there. That seems excessive as well.
It is excessive.
I have been coaching shooting for 23 years and never seen an accident involving a firearm.
I HAVE, however, seen sprains walking to and from the latrine...

At the risk of tempting fate, I would have to agree.  In the unlikely event of a firearms accident
someone with CAP-level first aid isn't going to be much help beyond "applying pressure".

With that said, AFAIC, an individual instructor should be allowed to set any mandate he wants,
but not set that expectation for the entire organizaiton.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on November 01, 2018, 03:09:53 AM
I do not assess that merely being an NRA RSO should be the baseline adult training standard for running a cadet range.
Long-term, I'd like to see CAP dump the NRA quals and follow the path the Sea Cadets are taking with going to the Scholastic Shooting Sports Foundation for qualifications.

Never gonna fly.  I see patches and pins, but no medals.  CAP likes medals.

CAP could make its own medals. Then develop an “equivalency chart.” Get Expert through NRA, submit it for conversion to the CAP Expert badge. Give a similar deal for Scholastic Shooting Sports Foundation, concerting their patches, pins and geegaws to a CAP equivalency and badge.

In fact, do that with skydiver qualifications, too. Five jumps overseen by the American Association of Whomever Keeps Track of This Stuff and get a CAP parachutist badge.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: imposter87 on November 01, 2018, 08:32:06 AM
Insurance is the main reason behind the certified Range Safety Officer, not to mention, how is MORE training to make CADETs SAFER in using firearms excessive? Not to mention making the ADULTS safer around the Cadets.

My issue with anyone who says its excessive has never been to court in an accidental shooting case, accidents happen, and the last thing I want to be apart of is a ragtag bunch who "had CPR a few years ago", and "I teach firearms stuff for boy scouts", or my favorite "I was a police officer/in military" (Hasn't been in police/military for 40 years not handled a weapon everyday in that time period) line of thinking. Handling firearms is not like riding a bike, these are perishable skills. Sticking feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken, neither does having once handled firearms a long time ago or just on the weekends make you qualified or "safe" with firearms.

I have had many "Firearms Instructors" teach courses at my range to be sorely disappointed in the instructors lack of weapons handling skills, and the ability to exchange information from their mind to the student in safe manner that isn't compromising safety.

In saying that, is the NRA RSO the "end all" qual needed to run the program? No it isn't. Do you HAVE to have it? No. But I myself will not be working around firearms and unverifiable skilled personnel that I may not know as well as I thought.

Is CPR/AED and First Aid required? No. But this should be a baseline skill you should know if you have kids, or work with Cadets. When does personnel responsibility for taking care of your loved ones or Cadets kick in? I won't be that guy who says "I didn't know what to do".

All in all, people who complain that more training is excessive because there lack of foresight is negating safety. I want myself Safe, my Cadets safe, and SM's safe and held accountable to a baseline standard of SAFETY and ABILITY.

I am also not going to be "that guy" who has to call the Wing King and tell them what happened, also explain that no one was certified in Range Safety or CPR? No thanks.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Eclipse on November 01, 2018, 10:07:58 AM
I am also not going to be "that guy" who has to call the Wing King and tell them what happened, also explain that no one was certified in Range Safety or CPR? No thanks.

Great, then just "don't be that guy", your range, your comfort zone, but don't expect everyone else to jump on
these types of expectations when all they do is make it harder to participate in something which is already difficult to arrange.

First Aid training and knowing how to push the buttons on an AED have literally nothing to so with firearms safety.

In fact, this kind of stipulation encourages the idea that firearm use is inherently dangerous, in and of itself, and if you believe that, you probably shouldn't be handling them.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: abdsp51 on November 01, 2018, 10:12:01 AM
The mil doesn't run 1:1 for weapons quals.  So do you cancel rhe event if you don't mee the qouta?  Is this a legit wing requirement written somewhere and approved or is this a personal req? 

Now I will agree that more training in the weapons realm is a good thing however I think that's going overboard.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: TheSkyHornet on November 01, 2018, 11:42:53 AM
Is this a legit wing requirement written somewhere and approved or is this a personal req? 

This was my question (still unanswered).

Quote
Now I will agree that more training in the weapons realm is a good thing however I think that's going overboard.

This was my point.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: imposter87 on November 01, 2018, 12:05:00 PM
The mil doesn't run 1:1 for weapons quals.  So do you cancel the event if you don't meet the qouta?  Is this a legit wing requirement written somewhere and approved or is this a personal req? 
   
     -That is what I was told I have to run it at, no, If I only have two RSO's then its just two Cadets that shoot at any given time, takes longer but meets the requirement.
     -I have done this program with so called "trained" individuals, but I don't do it anymore due to they don't want their usually old or outdated training questioned due to pride, and end up being careless with loaded
        weapons. I am not about to be shot, or watch someone else be shot.

Great, then just "don't be that guy", your range, your comfort zone, but don't expect everyone else to jump on
these types of expectations when all they do is make it harder to participate in something which is already difficult to arrange.
   
     -I don't shoot at my range per say, wherever we can get it done that is easy to get Cadets to join in.
     -It is not hard to schedule on the weekends, just hard to get SM's to want to do the RSO course, or CPR
     -I can literally teach the RSO and CPR course in a 12 hour day, SM's say they are too busy to give up one day. Understood, but don't complain that you want to help and aren't willing to jump through a 1-day
        hoop...then again, you can't people to do SLS, or CLC, or teach the course for that matter, so I can understand the point.
     -Easy to say "don't be that guy" but if your an adult dealing with children, you WILL be held accountable to some degree if there is an accident more than likely if someone is seriously injured whether criminal
        or civil. Angry Parents, angry Wing CC's, oh I imagine the Director of Safety looks into it also.

In fact, this kind of stipulation encourages the idea that firearm use is inherently dangerous, in and of itself, and if you believe that, you probably shouldn't be handling them.
     -If anyone is ignorant enough to believe that meeting a minimum bare-bones requirement of RSO and CPR/AED/BFA, then they don't need to be handling firearms either, much less if they believe them to be
        dangerous in the right hands.
     -My issue is with the ones who believe they are safe, and really not. But they won't let there pride down enough to admit they need more training. Pridefulness leads to ignorant and careless mistakes when it
         comes to safe firearms handling.

Regardless of opinion of what should be done vs what is done is something we could speak about all day. Fact is if I put on the program, the KID'S PARENTS (Cadets) know that every adult on that range has met a baseline minimum of CURRENT & ACTIVE certifications. Don't know about anyone else, but if my kid gets around an adult with a gun, I want KNOW, not think or assume that adult is competent to a degree.

I would want my childs safety to come FIRST not 2nd to PRIDE of not wanting to complete the necessary certs to help Cadets.

And it is easier than you think to get SM's involved in this if they like guns, I have trained quite a few CAP personnel as RSO's, which also doubles over for BSA if they participate in BSA also.


Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Eclipse on November 01, 2018, 12:14:48 PM
Actually, after re-reading this, the issue is clearly that the training is being run as a CAP activity.

That's the issue, and why the majority of Wings simply simply do not do it this way.

CAP is not in the business of providing firearms training to its members, it simply recognizes
awards presented by another organization. 

Turning it into a CAP-sponsored HAA is an unnecessary risk the organization doesn't need,
and which just adds 12 levels of hoops for a cadet to earn their badge, which is the whole point to start with.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on November 01, 2018, 12:44:15 PM
I just want to point out after reading three or four messages stating to have RSO + CPR. Remember that CPR=/=First Aid.

In other words, RSO + CPR =/= RSO + First Aid! Even better would be RSO + CPR + First Aid.

I am a squadron Safety Officer, and I teach the American Heart Association BLS for the Professional, CPR AED, and First Aid classes.




Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Eclipse on November 01, 2018, 12:52:16 PM
+1 - CAP doesn't even require CPR for ES, and the CPR /AED classes don't meet the mandate for
when FA is required.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Color Guard Rifleman on November 01, 2018, 12:55:48 PM
+1 - CAP doesn't even require CPR for ES, and the CPR /AED classes don't meet the mandate for
when FA is required.

Is there any way to receive the NRA award without going to Kansas Encampment?
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: abdsp51 on November 01, 2018, 12:57:30 PM
So where is it written that is the requirement?  If it's stated verbally then it doesn't fly. 

I'm trained and have been trained to handle everything from a pellet gun to an M2.  And I teach my kids, friends and their kids to shoot. 

You talk about not wanting to have others who are "trained" because of their egos.  Sounds like yours is coming into play here.

Anyone handling firearms needs to be safe especially cadets got it.  But if you are being told that you need a 1:1 ratio to host the activity then you need to get that in writing or point to it in writing, since your worried about liability.

Again Uncle Sam and most LEO agencies don't run 1:1 and maybe thats an indicator of your ability as a instructor.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: abdsp51 on November 01, 2018, 12:58:16 PM
+1 - CAP doesn't even require CPR for ES, and the CPR /AED classes don't meet the mandate for
when FA is required.

Is there any way to receive the NRA award without going to Kansas Encampment?

You can earn it outside of CAP you just have to provide proof of the award to wear it.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Eclipse on November 01, 2018, 01:05:20 PM
+1 - CAP doesn't even require CPR for ES, and the CPR /AED classes don't meet the mandate for
when FA is required.

Is there any way to receive the NRA award without going to Kansas Encampment?

Call your local NRA chapter or even gun range and ask about available qualified instructors.

It's usually done in groups at the squadron level for convenience, but it can be done 1-on-1 as well.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Color Guard Rifleman on November 01, 2018, 01:22:59 PM
So where is it written that is the requirement?  If it's stated verbally then it doesn't fly. 

I'm trained and have been trained to handle everything from a pellet gun to an M2.  And I teach my kids, friends and their kids to shoot. 

You talk about not wanting to have others who are "trained" because of their egos.  Sounds like yours is coming into play here.

Anyone handling firearms needs to be safe especially cadets got it.  But if you are being told that you need a 1:1 ratio to host the activity then you need to get that in writing or point to it in writing, since your worried about liability.

Again Uncle Sam and most LEO agencies don't run 1:1 and maybe thats an indicator of your ability as a instructor.

That is just one of the ways that I know.

+1 - CAP doesn't even require CPR for ES, and the CPR /AED classes don't meet the mandate for
when FA is required.

Is there any way to receive the NRA award without going to Kansas Encampment?

Call your local NRA chapter or even gun range and ask about available qualified instructors.

It's usually done in groups at the squadron level for convenience, but it can be done 1-on-1 as well.

Can a NRA member do it? Or does it have to be an instructor? What must one go through to get it?
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: abdsp51 on November 01, 2018, 01:27:20 PM
So where is it written that is the requirement?  If it's stated verbally then it doesn't fly. 

I'm trained and have been trained to handle everything from a pellet gun to an M2.  And I teach my kids, friends and their kids to shoot. 

You talk about not wanting to have others who are "trained" because of their egos.  Sounds like yours is coming into play here.

Anyone handling firearms needs to be safe especially cadets got it.  But if you are being told that you need a 1:1 ratio to host the activity then you need to get that in writing or point to it in writing, since your worried about liability.

Again Uncle Sam and most LEO agencies don't run 1:1 and maybe thats an indicator of your ability as a instructor.

That is just one of the ways that I know.

+1 - CAP doesn't even require CPR for ES, and the CPR /AED classes don't meet the mandate for
when FA is required.

Is there any way to receive the NRA award without going to Kansas Encampment?

Call your local NRA chapter or even gun range and ask about available qualified instructors.

It's usually done in groups at the squadron level for convenience, but it can be done 1-on-1 as well.

Can a NRA member do it? Or does it have to be an instructor? What must one go through to get it?

Eclipse answered this question.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Color Guard Rifleman on November 01, 2018, 02:33:48 PM
So where is it written that is the requirement?  If it's stated verbally then it doesn't fly. 

I'm trained and have been trained to handle everything from a pellet gun to an M2.  And I teach my kids, friends and their kids to shoot. 

You talk about not wanting to have others who are "trained" because of their egos.  Sounds like yours is coming into play here.

Anyone handling firearms needs to be safe especially cadets got it.  But if you are being told that you need a 1:1 ratio to host the activity then you need to get that in writing or point to it in writing, since your worried about liability.

Again Uncle Sam and most LEO agencies don't run 1:1 and maybe thats an indicator of your ability as a instructor.

That is just one of the ways that I know.

+1 - CAP doesn't even require CPR for ES, and the CPR /AED classes don't meet the mandate for
when FA is required.

Is there any way to receive the NRA award without going to Kansas Encampment?

Call your local NRA chapter or even gun range and ask about available qualified instructors.

It's usually done in groups at the squadron level for convenience, but it can be done 1-on-1 as well.

Can a NRA member do it? Or does it have to be an instructor? What must one go through to get it?

Eclipse answered this question.

I realize that. But I am asking for a more in-depth explanation. Can someone have a parent that is an NRA member do it?
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Eclipse on November 01, 2018, 02:38:40 PM
I realize that. But I am asking for a more in-depth explanation. Can someone have a parent that is an NRA member do it?

Yes, though from an integrity perspective that would not be a best-practice.

Since this confers nothing but a non-CAP medal, few would make an issue of it.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: ol'fido on November 01, 2018, 08:20:32 PM
I ran a two day HAA activity for our squadron that gave our cadets the basic NRA rifle course and qualified 3 of them for NRA medals out of a group of 8 cadets and 3 seniors that took the course. We had 4 instructors and 4 cadets on the line at any one time. We just ran them in relays. Most of the instruction was classroom with about 3 hours of actual range time. Our instructors were from Revere's Riders(hitscount.org) and were also NRA qualified. In fact, this was our typical 2 day course that we run for the general public with students from 10-90+years old.

We completed the normal HAA paperwork with all the required supporting documentation plus I answered a long list of questions from the Wing CC. It went off without a hitch and all personnel were safe the entire time. We had no issues with firearms handling. In fact, the instructors who were not familiar with CAP before the event were highly impressed with the cadets courtesy, attentiveness, and safe conduct. We are planning on doing a repeat next spring.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: JayT on November 01, 2018, 09:09:38 PM
I am also not going to be "that guy" who has to call the Wing King and tell them what happened, also explain that no one was certified in Range Safety or CPR? No thanks.

Great, then just "don't be that guy", your range, your comfort zone, but don't expect everyone else to jump on
these types of expectations when all they do is make it harder to participate in something which is already difficult to arrange.

First Aid training and knowing how to push the buttons on an AED have literally nothing to so with firearms safety.

In fact, this kind of stipulation encourages the idea that firearm use is inherently dangerous, in and of itself, and if you believe that, you probably shouldn't be handling them.

I'm going through this thread and I gotta jump in here. I'm a TCCC/TECC/PHTLS certified paramedic assigned to a high volume fire house that see's penetrating trauma pretty regularly, and I'm trying to understand the logic of having everyone at the activity certified in first aid. What is the number of fire aider's required to attend to a single GSW? Or in this scenario, are multiple people catching rounds? Are we anticipating a shooting range MCI? Also, who is supplying the AED which is apparently critical in the treatment of small caliber close range penetrating trauma?
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: imposter87 on November 02, 2018, 08:26:58 AM
Actually, after re-reading this, the issue is clearly that the training is being run as a CAP activity.
    -Exactly, I run this program outside of CAP, and if I have SM's or Cadets that want to do it, then we just do it as a non-CAP activity if I can help it.


So where is it written that is the requirement?  If it's stated verbally then it doesn't fly. 
     -Agree, but like I said earlier in the post, part of it is due to insurance requirements, part verbal.

You talk about not wanting to have others who are "trained" because of their egos.  Sounds like yours is coming into play here.
     -Not really honestly, I am a "nobody" like everyone else, I am a "student" every day and learn from my students, & have never claimed to be "the best" and just like in a fight, there is always someone else at a
       higher level of training and ability than yourself. As I stated earlier in the post, it is the ones with ego issues that are careless and won't admit it, pointing out something I have experienced in the past on multiple
        occasions isn't an ego problem, its an issue with individual's mindset on their opinion on proper training I have an issue with. Just because you think your "there", doesn't mean you are. Then again being "trained"
        is a loose term itself, all I ask for out of my participants is to be able to handle firearms safely, nothing more, and meet set CAP requirements whether they be verbal or not, who cares do what you have to and get
         it done.

Anyone handling firearms needs to be safe especially cadets got it.  But if you are being told that you need a 1:1 ratio to host the activity then you need to get that in writing or point to it in writing, since your worried about liability.
      -When your livelihood is on the line, and it is your range/classroom/home, you have to worry about liability.
      -CAP age kids are usually really good with safety, more so than some SM's, which is one reason I don't understand why I need the 1:1. I agree 1:1 is too much for this program, were not running room entry tactics
         with live ammo.

Again Uncle Sam and most LEO agencies don't run 1:1 and maybe thats an indicator of your ability as a instructor.
       -Oh I know the ratios, then again this is just a personal attack at this point, why I don't know you. If you actually read the posts correctly I said that it is a 1:1 due to Wing verbal requirements, and I try to do what
          I am told, but I guess that shows your ability as a reader.  ;D


Look I don't know anyone on this thread, and don't know anyone here and there abilities to perform the very basic skills necessary to function on a static range course of fire. All I have done is told what is required of me due to insurance and wing requirements, regardless of verbal or not, I try my best to do what I am told. And regardless of what you can get away with and what is required to have me covered for insurance are two separate things. I could care a less how anyone else runs the program.

I just read the comment below from the TCCC Fire Guy, no it doesn't make sense considering penetrating trauma, which BFA doesn't address the full set of skills needed to stabilize said possible patient, but this "verbal policy" was set by someone with no medical background. Did I argue it? nope, I just do what I can to provide a program, totally agree with your comments on it. Logic and common sense are two separate things as you have pointed out. And you know as well as I do, those who make the rules aren't always in the know. I use to get frustrated about it, now I just move on and try to push forward.

I honestly think one maybe two First Aiders, and an RSO or two is plenty to address the program (personally), but I just think its crazy how many have commented about it being too much, how is more knowledge, experience & training a bad thing? Yes the requirements are overboard, but looking at it from their point of view of who set the "policy", who isn't trained in firearms and isn't trained EMS personnel, they will go overboard with it out of safety alone. Not going to question Wing Kings in their decision making processes. I know both of them, which is why I defend it. Both are great guys and serve CAP well.

I honestly give out the paperwork and books for free to local squadrons who are interested and tell them up front to do it at home if they have a safe place to shoot, some do others don't, so they go to local ranges in their areas and make it a non-CAP activity. I just provide Answer to their Questions if they have them. If they want to do it as a HAA, I let them know how we have to do it if we go that route. It has its ups and downs for participation in the training classes, but it always works out for the best.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: abdsp51 on November 02, 2018, 09:27:07 AM
Actually, after re-reading this, the issue is clearly that the training is being run as a CAP activity.
    -Exactly, I run this program outside of CAP, and if I have SM's or Cadets that want to do it, then we just do it as a non-CAP activity if I can help it.


So where is it written that is the requirement?  If it's stated verbally then it doesn't fly. 
     -Agree, but like I said earlier in the post, part of it is due to insurance requirements, part verbal.

You talk about not wanting to have others who are "trained" because of their egos.  Sounds like yours is coming into play here.
     -Not really honestly, I am a "nobody" like everyone else, I am a "student" every day and learn from my students, & have never claimed to be "the best" and just like in a fight, there is always someone else at a
       higher level of training and ability than yourself. As I stated earlier in the post, it is the ones with ego issues that are careless and won't admit it, pointing out something I have experienced in the past on multiple
        occasions isn't an ego problem, its an issue with individual's mindset on their opinion on proper training I have an issue with. Just because you think your "there", doesn't mean you are. Then again being "trained"
        is a loose term itself, all I ask for out of my participants is to be able to handle firearms safely, nothing more, and meet set CAP requirements whether they be verbal or not, who cares do what you have to and get
         it done.

Anyone handling firearms needs to be safe especially cadets got it.  But if you are being told that you need a 1:1 ratio to host the activity then you need to get that in writing or point to it in writing, since your worried about liability.
      -When your livelihood is on the line, and it is your range/classroom/home, you have to worry about liability.
      -CAP age kids are usually really good with safety, more so than some SM's, which is one reason I don't understand why I need the 1:1. I agree 1:1 is too much for this program, were not running room entry tactics
         with live ammo.

Again Uncle Sam and most LEO agencies don't run 1:1 and maybe thats an indicator of your ability as a instructor.
       -Oh I know the ratios, then again this is just a personal attack at this point, why I don't know you. If you actually read the posts correctly I said that it is a 1:1 due to Wing verbal requirements, and I try to do what
          I am told, but I guess that shows your ability as a reader.  ;D


Look I don't know anyone on this thread, and don't know anyone here and there abilities to perform the very basic skills necessary to function on a static range course of fire. All I have done is told what is required of me due to insurance and wing requirements, regardless of verbal or not, I try my best to do what I am told. And regardless of what you can get away with and what is required to have me covered for insurance are two separate things. I could care a less how anyone else runs the program.

I just read the comment below from the TCCC Fire Guy, no it doesn't make sense considering penetrating trauma, which BFA doesn't address the full set of skills needed to stabilize said possible patient, but this "verbal policy" was set by someone with no medical background. Did I argue it? nope, I just do what I can to provide a program, totally agree with your comments on it. Logic and common sense are two separate things as you have pointed out. And you know as well as I do, those who make the rules aren't always in the know. I use to get frustrated about it, now I just move on and try to push forward.

I honestly think one maybe two First Aiders, and an RSO or two is plenty to address the program (personally), but I just think its crazy how many have commented about it being too much, how is more knowledge, experience & training a bad thing? Yes the requirements are overboard, but looking at it from their point of view of who set the "policy", who isn't trained in firearms and isn't trained EMS personnel, they will go overboard with it out of safety alone. Not going to question Wing Kings in their decision making processes. I know both of them, which is why I defend it. Both are great guys and serve CAP well.

I honestly give out the paperwork and books for free to local squadrons who are interested and tell them up front to do it at home if they have a safe place to shoot, some do others don't, so they go to local ranges in their areas and make it a non-CAP activity. I just provide Answer to their Questions if they have them. If they want to do it as a HAA, I let them know how we have to do it if we go that route. It has its ups and downs for participation in the training classes, but it always works out for the best.

Dude if the message isn't being received as intended that is on you the sender not the receiver.

You keep touting insurance and wing reqs.  Well taking what you say at face value I'd be doing some more digging and a verbal req isn't going to help you in court. 

I guess maybe the folks who teach out here are either stupid in what they do, nore proficient or just straight up lucky.

Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Eclipse on November 02, 2018, 09:46:10 AM
Since there is no regulation that applies, my next question would be "what insurance?".

CAP is self-insured.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: abdsp51 on November 02, 2018, 09:54:39 AM
Since there is no regulation that applies, my next question would be "what insurance?".

CAP is self-insured.

Most states require gun ranges and instructors to carry liability insurance in order to function.  The lowest I have seen for a range is 1M. 
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Eclipse on November 02, 2018, 10:04:04 AM
Since there is no regulation that applies, my next question would be "what insurance?".

CAP is self-insured.

Most states require gun ranges and instructors to carry liability insurance in order to function.  The lowest I have seen for a range is 1M.

I'm sure.  1MM is probably low, but that has nothing to do with CAP or the directives from a Wing CC on how to run the activity.

In fact, a requirment for additional training to participate probably opens up the members to additional liability should there be an accident.
"Your required training shows you should have known better."
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: abdsp51 on November 02, 2018, 11:12:17 AM
Since there is no regulation that applies, my next question would be "what insurance?".

CAP is self-insured.

Most states require gun ranges and instructors to carry liability insurance in order to function.  The lowest I have seen for a range is 1M.

I'm sure.  1MM is probably low, but that has nothing to do with CAP or the directives from a Wing CC on how to run the activity.

In fact, a requirment for additional training to participate probably opens up the members to additional liability should there be an accident.
"Your required training shows you should have known better."

1M was the lowest I have seen required.  Everytime I'm at the range there is usally some class going on and I hardly ever see a 1:1 ratio. 

A 1:1 ratio to me seems overbearing and absent written policy at face value to me seems like an unneccessary roadblock to the activity. 

I know CAWG at there encampments typically have some range time there and I'm sure PHall or Ned will correct that if it's wrong.

In my 20 years axtive duty I've never seen us have 1:1 nor am I aware of any LE Agency doing the same. 

The poster says its a wing verbal req which to me is a red flag and a need to cya and an insurance requirement.  Again taking it at face value it's his daily source of income.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: GroundHawg on November 02, 2018, 11:23:39 AM
I do not assess that merely being an NRA RSO should be the baseline adult training standard for running a cadet range.
Long-term, I'd like to see CAP dump the NRA quals and follow the path the Sea Cadets are taking with going to the Scholastic Shooting Sports Foundation for qualifications.

Never gonna fly.  I see patches and pins, but no medals.  CAP likes medals.

CAP could make its own medals. Then develop an “equivalency chart.” Get Expert through NRA, submit it for conversion to the CAP Expert badge. Give a similar deal for Scholastic Shooting Sports Foundation, concerting their patches, pins and geegaws to a CAP equivalency and badge.

In fact, do that with skydiver qualifications, too. Five jumps overseen by the American Association of Whomever Keeps Track of This Stuff and get a CAP parachutist badge.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The CMP, NRA, and JROTC run a program really close to this and it seems to work great for them. Maybe CAP could cut and paste a similar program?

Also, I would like to see the CMP Civilian EIC and Distinguished Marksmanship badges authorized for CAP wear. The requirements to earn them are exactly the same as the military, the only difference being civilian status and that military can only enter 3 EIC matches per year, where a civilian can enter 5.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Eclipse on November 02, 2018, 11:39:31 AM
Why would CAP be interested in its own program when another organizaiton is happy to do it and
is successful at it?

Its skirting the intention of CAP's existence to involve firearms at all, let alone ramping up its own plan,
which probably brings with it all the risks with no real extra reward.

Right now it's a partnership of "Oh, you found a guy over there who said you can shoot?"  "Great, here's a medal."

Cadets like medals.  Everyone is happy.

I've never seen a single cadet who was interested in that medal not be able to get it.

What needs to change?
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: TheSkyHornet on November 02, 2018, 01:45:09 PM
Its skirting the intention of CAP's existence to involve firearms at all...

I disagree here.

CAP's existence does not warrant the need for the use of firearms. But neither does any other youth organization, really, with the exception of youth rifle clubs/associations (such as those under the NRA).

JROTC has no need to carry weapons. The Cadet Program has no need to carry weapons. The CAP "senior program" has no need to carry weapons. The Sea Cadet Corps has no need to carry weapons. And so forth (I'll throw summer camp in there).

But that doesn't mean weapons training/familiarization has to be excluded from these organizations, particularly for youth. Many youth organizations have had a long standing practice of permitting firearms training with no practical need to do so, as they aren't combatant corps. They use it as a training tool for safety awareness, discipline, and skill. Some include it as an appreciation of Constitutional rights. And let's not get into that debate either, please.

There is nothing in "CAP's existence" that presents a need for firearms inclusion. But there is also nothing in "CAP's existence" that makes a stance in opposition of firearms.

The Cadet Program does not existence to "provide search and rescue," if that's the suggestive nature of the 'existence' point. That's not the mission of the CAP Cadet Program.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Eclipse on November 02, 2018, 01:59:10 PM
Its skirting the intention of CAP's existence to involve firearms at all...

I disagree here.

CAP's existence does not warrant the need for the use of firearms. But neither does any other youth organization, really, with the exception of youth rifle clubs/associations (such as those under the NRA).

JROTC has no need to carry weapons. The Cadet Program has no need to carry weapons. The CAP "senior program" has no need to carry weapons. The Sea Cadet Corps has no need to carry weapons. And so forth (I'll throw summer camp in there).

CAP's charter and mission specifically indicates "CAP's services to the nation and the USAF are: (1) voluntary, (2) benevolent, and (3) noncombatant. (See CAPP 50-5)

The CFR covering JROTC specifically indicates that it is intended to explore "military art" as well as the "dual roles of citizen soldier / soldier citizen", which would include
the use of firearms.

Similar organizations like the BSA are intended for general life skills orientation, with a focus on field craft, etc.

For me, personally, I wish CAP did more general life skills stuff, but there are only so many hours in the day.
With that said, I've had more then one mom, not to mention members over the years, ask me how firearms training jives with being a benevolent noncombatant.
Raising the question doesn't mean CAP just stops doing it, but it is a fair point, and that's why CAP should stay out of the
direct training business and just continue to recognize "other".
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: NIN on November 02, 2018, 02:47:19 PM
firearm != combat.

 just saying.

Marksmanship is a skill, and, in turns, a "martial" art. But when its paper punching, its still just a skill.

Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: TheSkyHornet on November 02, 2018, 03:10:40 PM
Let's not get into a debate over the mechanical use of the terms "rifle," "weapon," "gun," and "firearm."

Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Eclipse on November 02, 2018, 03:36:05 PM
Let's not get into a debate over the mechanical use of the terms "rifle," "weapon," "gun," and "firearm."

OK, but what about knifey-spoony?
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: CAPLTC on November 02, 2018, 10:45:12 PM
I agree! Yes, there are so many cool-guy instructors who claim Elite Operator status once upon a time... :)
I'm a credentialed shooting instructor and coach, in several national and international disciplines... and yes, agree ... most gun people are sadly lacking in the ability to succinctly instruct.  Not just everyone can instruct and coach (COACH) youth to shoot... 
Mandating an EMT be on-scene is excessive, but I do understand your point... however most squadrons don't have a staff EMT. Renting one is, again, excessive. Yes - CPR/AED etc should be mandatory for every event.
What kind of range are you running though?  I have never, in 100s of classes, and 100s of events, 1000s of practices seen anyone shot nor wounded ... that is unheard of.
Agree: an RSO is indeed for running a safe range, but not instructing...
This is my problem with the current program...
And why we should switch to SSSP. They may soon have their own qual badges.
The insurance aspect of SSSP is truly a huge plus.
It's a fast growing program... they just had the largest steel shooting match ever this summer.

Insurance is the main reason behind the certified Range Safety Officer, not to mention, how is MORE training to make CADETs SAFER in using firearms excessive? Not to mention making the ADULTS safer around the Cadets.

My issue with anyone who says its excessive has never been to court in an accidental shooting case, accidents happen, and the last thing I want to be apart of is a ragtag bunch who "had CPR a few years ago", and "I teach firearms stuff for boy scouts", or my favorite "I was a police officer/in military" (Hasn't been in police/military for 40 years not handled a weapon everyday in that time period) line of thinking. Handling firearms is not like riding a bike, these are perishable skills. Sticking feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken, neither does having once handled firearms a long time ago or just on the weekends make you qualified or "safe" with firearms.

I have had many "Firearms Instructors" teach courses at my range to be sorely disappointed in the instructors lack of weapons handling skills, and the ability to exchange information from their mind to the student in safe manner that isn't compromising safety.

In saying that, is the NRA RSO the "end all" qual needed to run the program? No it isn't. Do you HAVE to have it? No. But I myself will not be working around firearms and unverifiable skilled personnel that I may not know as well as I thought.

Is CPR/AED and First Aid required? No. But this should be a baseline skill you should know if you have kids, or work with Cadets. When does personnel responsibility for taking care of your loved ones or Cadets kick in? I won't be that guy who says "I didn't know what to do".

All in all, people who complain that more training is excessive because there lack of foresight is negating safety. I want myself Safe, my Cadets safe, and SM's safe and held accountable to a baseline standard of SAFETY and ABILITY.

I am also not going to be "that guy" who has to call the Wing King and tell them what happened, also explain that no one was certified in Range Safety or CPR? No thanks.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on November 03, 2018, 02:47:56 AM
Why would CAP be interested in its own program when another organizaiton is happy to do it and
is successful at it?

Its skirting the intention of CAP's existence to involve firearms at all, let alone ramping up its own plan,
which probably brings with it all the risks with no real extra reward.

Right now it's a partnership of "Oh, you found a guy over there who said you can shoot?"  "Great, here's a medal."

Cadets like medals.  Everyone is happy.

I've never seen a single cadet who was interested in that medal not be able to get it.

What needs to change?

Eh. I’ve got a fundamental problem with wearing a uniform obtained from a different 501C organization. I like the idea of recognizing the skill. I like the idea of awarding a badge for it. But I also like the idea of the outside program resulting in a CAP award for a CAP uniform.

Going  W A Y,  W  A  Y back, CAP sed to have a Stewardess Badge.” (First time I heard about them, they got my attention. Not that i wanted one, but because my 14-year old mind started imagining what type of aircraft CAP had that needed “Stewardesses” and further visualization of colonels cross-crossing the country in DC-3s or whatever. Imagine my disappointment).

The only way to earn them was to be a female cadet who was selected for a CAP  Special Activity held at a “stewardess” training course sponsored by an airline. Instead of being allowed to wear American Airlines or TWA stewardess wings, graduates were awarded CAP stewardess wings created for that specific purpose. Looked like half of pilot wings.

I only knew one person who actually earned and wore them. And, she didn’t wear them for long - she got her pilot ticket.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: BraveRifles19D on November 08, 2018, 06:30:39 PM
I just like how people are arguing about being "too safe", lol! I'm a law enforcement firearms instructor and I wish we could have 1 instructor for each officer on the line. We have between 2-4 instructors for a 5 person firing line. Usually 3. And everyone is CPR/FA/AED certified, too.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Fubar on November 08, 2018, 11:42:23 PM
Eh. I’ve got a fundamental problem with wearing a uniform obtained from a different 501C organization.

Even further to your point, I don't understand why we have any bling that's not from our organization. There are the AFA awards, military awards and decorations, and the NRA stuff just clutters and already cluttered landscape.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: PHall on November 09, 2018, 12:20:05 AM
Eh. I’ve got a fundamental problem with wearing a uniform obtained from a different 501C organization.

Even further to your point, I don't understand why we have any bling that's not from our organization. There are the AFA awards, military awards and decorations, and the NRA stuff just clutters and already cluttered landscape.

Well, the Air Force does not have any marksmanship badges. Just a ribbon if you shoot expert. And supposedly CAP follows the Air Force's lead on uniform stuff.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Eclipse on November 09, 2018, 12:36:03 AM
Well, the Air Force does not have any marksmanship badges. Just a ribbon if you shoot expert. And supposedly CAP follows the Air Force's lead on uniform stuff.

Quoth the Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksmanship_badges_(United_States)

"The U.S. Air Force awards Bronze EIC Badges (without wreath) to Airman who rank in the top 10% of competitors at a U.S. Air Force-approved competition; these competitions do not have to be CMP sanctioned. The Air Force Bronze EIC Badges with Wreath are awarded when six leg points have been earned in an authorized excellence category of competition and their Silver EIC Badges with Wreath when 20 leg points have been earned."


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/USAF_EIC_Badges.png/500px-USAF_EIC_Badges.png)

AFI-36-2903, Page 29 (and elsewhere) (updated SEPT 2018
"4.1.2.3.2. Duty, Missile, and Excellence-in-Competition Badges. With the exception
of the missile operations badge, wear of these badges is optional. If worn, duty
badges will be miniature in size (except when only one size badge is available). The
first duty badge will be centered on the wearer’s left ½ inch below the bottom row of
medals. The second badge will be worn on the wearer’s right in the same relative
position as the badge worn on the wearer’s left. The missile or excellence-in-competition
badges are worn on the wearer’s left, ½ inch below the bottom row of
medals.
Move any duty badge(s) to the wearer’s right side, in the same relative
position as the badge worn on the wearer’s left. The Presidential and/or Vice
Presidential Service Badge, will always be worn on the wearer’s right side. Note: See
paragraph 10.3 for additional information."


An argument could be made that this is similar to the CAP-NRA marksmanship badge in that
it is certified by an outside body, but worn on the uniform.

More detail:
http://www.myairforcelife.com/sports/shooting.aspx
http://www.airforceshooting.org/eicbadgsr.html
https://www.vandenberg.af.mil/News/Features/Display/Article/1246476/eic-program-a-historic-tradition/

(https://media.defense.gov/2017/Jul/13/2001777488/780/780/0/171207-F-XX999-001.JPG)
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: TheSkyHornet on November 09, 2018, 10:54:56 AM
But that's a competition badge, not a qualification badge.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: OldGuy on November 09, 2018, 11:25:11 AM
But that's a competition badge, not a qualification badge.
It IS a "marksmanship" badge.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: PHall on November 09, 2018, 12:04:45 PM
But that's a competition badge, not a qualification badge.
It IS a "marksmanship" badge.


And has anyone here ever seen one of those badges ever worn? I know that I never did in 31-1/2 years in the Air Force/Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: abdsp51 on November 09, 2018, 12:12:28 PM
But that's a competition badge, not a qualification badge.
It IS a "marksmanship" badge.


And has anyone here ever seen one of those badges ever worn? I know that I never did in 31-1/2 years in the Air Force/Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve.

I have.  They are rare but they are out there and worn.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on November 09, 2018, 12:42:29 PM
Wow! He was wrong and is trying to justify his mistake. Exactly what he decries in others!

I am not surprised.


Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: PHall on November 09, 2018, 01:34:50 PM
Wow! He was wrong and is trying to justify his mistake. Exactly what he decries in others!

I am not surprised.

Didn't make any mistake. I said I had never seen one worn, the other poster said he had but they were very rare.
So how is that a mistake?
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: GroundHawg on November 09, 2018, 02:19:49 PM
But that's a competition badge, not a qualification badge.
It IS a "marksmanship" badge.


And has anyone here ever seen one of those badges ever worn? I know that I never did in 31-1/2 years in the Air Force/Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve.

I wore two of them for every blues inspection for the better part of my career, as did my brother.

They are not as common in the USAF as they are in the Army and USMC where marksmanship is more of a culture.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: TheSkyHornet on November 09, 2018, 02:35:07 PM
In the Army and Marine Corps, they're not a 'culture;' they're a qualifying element of basic training due to the intended "soldiering" taught for all soldiers and marines. Bottom line in those two branches is to prepare you for combat in the field which requires a weapons qual. So they'll get one of the badges if they complete boot. You also re-qual annually.

It's actually Army tradition for officers not to wear their marksmanship badge.

But we're talking about cadets here, guys...
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: PHall on November 09, 2018, 02:36:46 PM
But that's a competition badge, not a qualification badge.
It IS a "marksmanship" badge.


And has anyone here ever seen one of those badges ever worn? I know that I never did in 31-1/2 years in the Air Force/Air National Guard/Air Force Reserve.

I wore two of them for every blues inspection for the better part of my career, as did my brother.

They are not as common in the USAF as they are in the Army and USMC where marksmanship is more of a culture.


Oh, I had a Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon with a bronze star for shooting expert on more then one weapon (.38 cal revolver and the M-9).
Saw lots of those. Of course I was shooting the Aircrew Course of Fire. Which wasn't the hardest one out there...
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: GroundHawg on November 09, 2018, 03:04:56 PM
In the Army and Marine Corps, they're not a 'culture;' they're a qualifying element of basic training due to the intended "soldiering" taught for all soldiers and marines. Bottom line in those two branches is to prepare you for combat in the field which requires a weapons qual. So they'll get one of the badges if they complete boot. You also re-qual annually.

It's actually Army tradition for officers not to wear their marksmanship badge.

But we're talking about cadets here, guys...

You and I are not talking about the same badges. (I was Army prior to USAF). I believe, you are talking about the standard marksmanship badges that we all earned during basic and qualified for annually. I was referring to the EIC, Distinguished, and in the case of the USMC, competition badges.

These badges can be worn by Senior Members, unlike the NRA badges.

 
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: TheSkyHornet on November 09, 2018, 04:02:08 PM
The reason the CMP badges can be worn by seniors is because they're still awarded by the Armed Forces, albeit through the CMP.

The Armed Forces do not award NRA badges, which is why seniors cannot wear it. The NRA badge is an easy-enough comparable qualifying award that cadets can attempt as an incentive to stay in the program and earn bling. That's really it.

If seniors want to earn non-CAP bling, they can join the military (and if they're too old or NPQ, they'll get over it).


I'm still somewhat confused here as to why the conversation has turned to discussing senior and military wear of weapons qual badges when the OP was asking where to get the cadets their badges from. Like most things CAP Talk, the topic has completely derailed to discuss something never even approached in the initial question.
Title: Re: NRA Marksman Awards
Post by: SarDragon on November 09, 2018, 04:26:52 PM
Q asked; Q answered, with some usable amplifying info.

The train has arrived in Clarksville.

Click.