The Hock Shop hit with lawsuit?

[lordmonar]

Approved for wear yes but I never signed over my rights. Does that mean that all the approved military badges are corporate assets too? The right hand flag as well?

The Flag is the intellectual property of the U.S. Government and is controlled by Federal Law.

But yes....everything you are allowed to put on your uniform could be argued to be part of CAP's intellectual property.

[Dracosbane]

Copyright does not transfer to CAP, Inc. just because they say that a unit can use it as a patch design.  What is given is usage rights to said unit (and to a small extent CAP, Inc.) to have the design turned into a patch and worn on the uniform. 

As a designer and photographer, if I do something for my unit or wing or NHQ, and I say "sure, you can use it" that does not give them the rights to it, nor does it give them the right to take it as their own and use it elsewhere.  Especially if it does not have any mention of CAP, as with our current unit patch. 

It would also require a very specific contract that precludes me from taking that design (i.e. squadron patch) and going and selling it on shirts, mugs, etc., that would be between me and the unit (or wing, more than likely) which constitutes exclusivity, if I decide to agree to it.  However, as CAP, Inc. would have not designed the item itself, nor would I have designed it and been compensated for it (as an employee or contractor while under the employ of CAP, Inc.) they could not claim it in any way without my approval.

Would someone design a patch and then perhaps be disgruntled later down the road and tell the unit to stop wearing it?  Perhaps, but at that time, the unit could easily find someone else to design a unit patch to replace it. 

The reason I know this is not only because I do this professionally, but I also have designed unit patches for another unit, not my own.  I can take that design and use it as I see fit, and I've given them the right to make it their "logo".  I have no specific use for it, so there's no reason for me to go selling it elsewhere, which is probably the case with many designers who create designs with such specific and detailed use.  But that doesn't mean I've given up my copyright or intellectual property rights to it.

And no, I wasn't compensated by the unit for the design, save for the fact that I'll get a patch when they have them made, and potentially any other item with the design on it (i.e. shirt, hat, whatever).  I did it voluntarily and because the unit commander asked as a friend.

But if anyone else is looking for a new unit patch, my fees are reasonable...   

[swamprat86]

With talk of IP and everything, is MilitarySignatures.com in violation?  They are creating products that we "buy" with CAP branding on it.  Is Vanguard going to offer this as a product if militarysignatures.com is told to stop but there is enough interest in the membership?

Just some thoughts going through my head.

[tdepp]

How does CAP Inc. own my unit's patch? I don't remember signing over my rights to the image to any corporate officer after I designed it.

It has to be approved by Wing in order to wear it, and upon that approval becomes a corporate asset.

This is a sticky situation.  Ideally, as Eclipse does, he licenses or assigns certain rights to CAP with his designs.  He retains the copyright unless it is a work made for hire and it is his/her duty to design these things for the squadron as an employee, which is a highly unlikely scenario, or it requires a writing.

I would argue that at the least, the designer of the squadron patch provides an implied license to CAP and the squadron to use their design.  They hold the rights in the design.  The best practice as far as the artist is concerned is to have a written agreement between the designer and an authorized CAP signatory (a corporate officer) about the design.  Squadron commanders are not corporate officers and cannot bind CAP.  Only the Wing Commanders and other certain designated corporate officials can bind CAP legally.

[davidsinn]

How does CAP Inc. own my unit's patch? I don't remember signing over my rights to the image to any corporate officer after I designed it.

It has to be approved by Wing in order to wear it, and upon that approval becomes a corporate asset.

This is a sticky situation.  Ideally, as Eclipse does, he licenses or assigns certain rights to CAP with his designs.  He retains the copyright unless it is a work made for hire and it is his/her duty to design these things for the squadron as an employee, which is a highly unlikely scenario, or it requires a writing.

I would argue that at the least, the designer of the squadron patch provides an implied license to CAP and the squadron to use their design.  They hold the rights in the design.  The best practice as far as the artist is concerned is to have a written agreement between the designer and an authorized CAP signatory (a corporate officer) about the design.  Squadron commanders are not corporate officers and cannot bind CAP.  Only the Wing Commanders and other certain designated corporate officials can bind CAP legally.

I won't argue against an implied license as that is what the case is. However it is not CAP Inc. property and they can not tell me I can not produce or sell them nor can they tell me I must use their supplier and that they get a cut as I am the copy right holder and I allow GLR-IN-227 to use the image as a unit patch and on letterhead, websites, etc. If I want to have a hundred made and sell them for five bucks a pop, nobody can stop me.

[tdepp]

I won't argue against an implied license as that is what the case is. However it is not CAP Inc. property and they can not tell me I can not produce or sell them nor can they tell me I must use their supplier and that they get a cut as I am the copy right holder and I allow GLR-IN-227 to use the image as a unit patch and on letterhead, websites, etc. If I want to have a hundred made and sell them for five bucks a pop, nobody can stop me.

I think you are correct (with a caveat to follow).  It is your design, your IP, but you've probably given an implied license (which is like a lease) for use.  Caveat: If you use "CAP" or "Civil Air Patrol" or any of the distinctive CAP symbols like the propeller, it still could be infringement.  My advice would be to not include such items in a design to avoid infringement issues.   

[Ned]

As a designer and photographer, if I do something for my unit or wing or NHQ, and I say "sure, you can use it" that does not give them the rights to it, nor does it give them the right to take it as their own and use it elsewhere. 

Absolutely true.  You can license your IP to anyone on earth, and reserve any rights to yourself.  Normally this is done with a written contract and license, which as a professional I'm confident that you use routinely.

However, just giving away your work without reserving any rights in writing may well mean that your work is now in the public domain and can be used by anyone without compensation.

Which is usually the situation when a unit member designs a patch - intending it to be used by the unit - and it is passed out freely to everyone in the unit without any sort of reservation of rights.

Nobody owes anyone anything in that kind of situation.  Nobody can assert ownership down the line and prevent anyone esle from using it. 

Just one of those "legal" things.

However it is not CAP Inc. property and they can not tell me I can not produce or sell them nor can they tell me I must use their supplier and that they get a cut as I am the copy right holder and I allow GLR-IN-227 to use the image as a unit patch and on letterhead, websites, etc. If I want to have a hundred made and sell them for five bucks a pop, nobody can stop me.

Unless the artwork includes the words "Civil Air Patrol" or other IP reserved exclusively for CAP, Inc.  In which case, they have the right to enjoin any unauthorized use or sale.

Another one of those "legal things."



Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[Eclipse]

However it is not CAP Inc. property and they can not tell me I can not produce or sell them nor can they tell me I must use their supplier and that they get a cut as I am the copy right holder and I allow GLR-IN-227 to use the image as a unit patch and on letterhead, websites, etc. If I want to have a hundred made and sell them for five bucks a pop, nobody can stop me.

Unless the artwork includes the words "Civil Air Patrol" or other IP reserved exclusively for CAP, Inc.  In which case, they have the right to enjoin any unauthorized use or sale.

Another one of those "legal things."

Not to mention that CAP can certainly direct you in your capacity as a member to do, or not do, anything they want.  You are free to turn in your membership card, but beyond that, you must comply.

[teesquared]

...and now there is a Facebook page for it:  http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=333621608998

500 people have already joined the "Save the Hock Shop" cause on Facebook!

Now almost 900.

[Eclipse]

Would someone design a patch and then perhaps be disgruntled later down the road and tell the unit to stop wearing it?  Perhaps, but at that time, the unit could easily find someone else to design a unit patch to replace it. 

There are units in my wing that have patches that cost nearly $10 each, and have invested a lot of money in signage and collateral which
contains their insignia. 

Think changing the insignia for them is "easy" because the member who designed it gets their shorts in a bunch?

These are the kinds of things people don't consider when everyone is having a good time together.

[Rotorhead]

...and now there is a Facebook page for it:  http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=333621608998

500 people have already joined the "Save the Hock Shop" cause on Facebook!

Now almost 900.

..and it will have no effect whatsoever.

[Rotorhead]

Approved for wear yes but I never signed over my rights. Does that mean that all the approved military badges are corporate assets too? The right hand flag as well?

The Flag is the intellectual property of the U.S. Government and is controlled by Federal Law.

Check the law before asserting that.

[lordmonar]

Approved for wear yes but I never signed over my rights. Does that mean that all the approved military badges are corporate assets too? The right hand flag as well?

The Flag is the intellectual property of the U.S. Government and is controlled by Federal Law.

Check the law before asserting that.

Did,

TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1
CHAPTER 1—THE FLAG
How Current is This? •§ 1. Flag; stripes and stars on
•§ 2. Same; additional stars
•§ 3. Use of flag for advertising purposes; mutilation of flag
•§ 4. Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery
•§ 5. Display and use of flag by civilians; codification of rules and customs; definition
•§ 6. Time and occasions for display
•§ 7. Position and manner of display
•§ 8. Respect for flag
•§ 9. Conduct during hoisting, lowering or passing of flag
•§ 10. Modification of rules and customs by President

See....federal law.

[Rotorhead]

Approved for wear yes but I never signed over my rights. Does that mean that all the approved military badges are corporate assets too? The right hand flag as well?

The Flag is the intellectual property of the U.S. Government and is controlled by Federal Law.

Check the law before asserting that.

Did,

TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1
CHAPTER 1—THE FLAG
How Current is This? •§ 1. Flag; stripes and stars on
•§ 2. Same; additional stars
•§ 3. Use of flag for advertising purposes; mutilation of flag
•§ 4. Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery
•§ 5. Display and use of flag by civilians; codification of rules and customs; definition
•§ 6. Time and occasions for display
•§ 7. Position and manner of display
•§ 8. Respect for flag
•§ 9. Conduct during hoisting, lowering or passing of flag
•§ 10. Modification of rules and customs by President

See....federal law.

The section you cite does not show that the federal government holds a copyright or trademark on the design of the flag. (It does not.)

In fact, this section has been held by the SCOTUS to be unenforceable.

I can't think of any examples of the US government suing a vendor, manufacturer, salesperson, or anyone else for using the flag without permission.

[EMT-83]

Just think of all the royalties that Betsy Ross missed out on. If she had only planned ahead...

[addo1]

...and now there is a Facebook page for it:  http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=333621608998

500 people have already joined the "Save the Hock Shop" cause on Facebook!

Now almost 900.

..and it will have no effect whatsoever.

You never know... Well over 1,000 members now...

[tdepp]

...and now there is a Facebook page for it:  http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=333621608998

500 people have already joined the "Save the Hock Shop" cause on Facebook!

Now almost 900.

..and it will have no effect whatsoever.

You never know... Well over 1,000 members now...

Facebook groups are nice but paying customers are better.  If you want to do something useful, actually buy something from the Hock Shop.

[addo1]

...and now there is a Facebook page for it:  http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=333621608998

500 people have already joined the "Save the Hock Shop" cause on Facebook!

Now almost 900.

..and it will have no effect whatsoever.

You never know... Well over 1,000 members now...

Facebook groups are nice but paying customers are better.  If you want to do something useful, actually buy something from the Hock Shop.

Looking at the posts, people will be... As for myself, I will be making a freaking huge order here soon.. Obviously I will be minus a few specific items, but I will get everything I can there.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

As a designer and photographer, if I do something for my unit or wing or NHQ, and I say "sure, you can use it" that does not give them the rights to it, nor does it give them the right to take it as their own and use it elsewhere. 

Absolutely true.  You can license your IP to anyone on earth, and reserve any rights to yourself.  Normally this is done with a written contract and license, which as a professional I'm confident that you use routinely.

However, just giving away your work without reserving any rights in writing may well mean that your work is now in the public domain and can be used by anyone without compensation.

Which is usually the situation when a unit member designs a patch - intending it to be used by the unit - and it is passed out freely to everyone in the unit without any sort of reservation of rights.

Nobody owes anyone anything in that kind of situation.  Nobody can assert ownership down the line and prevent anyone esle from using it. 

Just one of those "legal" things.

However it is not CAP Inc. property and they can not tell me I can not produce or sell them nor can they tell me I must use their supplier and that they get a cut as I am the copy right holder and I allow GLR-IN-227 to use the image as a unit patch and on letterhead, websites, etc. If I want to have a hundred made and sell them for five bucks a pop, nobody can stop me.

Unless the artwork includes the words "Civil Air Patrol" or other IP reserved exclusively for CAP, Inc.  In which case, they have the right to enjoin any unauthorized use or sale.

Another one of those "legal things."

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

Disagree. Any IP work done on behalf of an employer becomes property of the employer. Any newspaper I've ever worked for owned my stories, my graphics, my photos, whatever, since I was doing the work for hire.

As a member of CAP deployed on a CAP activity, you are an agent of CAP. You follow CAP regulations. You are covered by CAP insurance (which could be considered a form of compensation). You, in essence, are working for CAP, albeit for nothing. Any intellectual property generated on behalf of CAP is CAP's property unless the corporation says otherwise.

As for a squadron emblem ("patch"): The emblems of subordinate units in a wing are to be approved by the wing commander, who is also the only corporate officer in each wing. Since the emblem will be worn on the uniform and used in other ways, it is the wing commander who approves/disapproves emblems in his/her wing. The emblems, we can contend, become CAP property.

[Dracosbane]

Would someone design a patch and then perhaps be disgruntled later down the road and tell the unit to stop wearing it?  Perhaps, but at that time, the unit could easily find someone else to design a unit patch to replace it. 

There are units in my wing that have patches that cost nearly $10 each, and have invested a lot of money in signage and collateral which
contains their insignia. 

Think changing the insignia for them is "easy" because the member who designed it gets their shorts in a bunch?

These are the kinds of things people don't consider when everyone is having a good time together.

I didn't say changing would be easy.  I said finding a designer would be easy.  Throw a stone on the internet and you can hit a graphic designer.