The Hock Shop hit with lawsuit?

[Seabee219]

Everyone buy from the HOCK as much as possible, I know I will unless I need something with CAP on it.

[JC004]

Simply moving to Canada doesn't exempt him from his liabilities.

Yes - Don't we have reciprocal enforcement agreements on copyrights, etc.?

There is an international copyright treaty to which we are a party.  It is probably pretty hard work to deal with issues that way, though. 

[JC004]

...and now there is a Facebook page for it:  http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=333621608998

[Swylie]

I am disgusted by these actions.  I gave up on Vangaurd back when they became our "exclusive" provider, their poor service, confusing layout, and excessive prices lost my business.  Since then I have been loyal to The Hock.  Anyone that has been a member fully understands that CAP already has enough of a financial burden as it is, and to create a a monopoly against the members is appalling. 

On a side note, Vanguard does not even carry all of our uniforms and accessories.  If they are our "exclusive" provider then where is half our uniforms and accessories? 

[Major Carrales]

There is still lots of "gear" to be bought from the HOCK.  In fact, I will be making an order from there for some pistol belts.

[SarDragon]

I am disgusted by these actions.  I gave up on Vangaurd back when they became our "exclusive" provider, their poor service, confusing layout, and excessive prices lost my business.  Since then I have been loyal to The Hock.  Anyone that has been a member fully understands that CAP already has enough of a financial burden as it is, and to create a a monopoly against the members is appalling. 

On a side note, Vanguard does not even carry all of our uniforms and accessories.  If they are our "exclusive" provider then where is half our uniforms and accessories?

Vanguard is the exclusive provider of CAP specific uniform items. You can buy all the rest of what you wear anywhere you want.

[ltcjwl]

I am against this action, but my biggest concern is...WHERE WILL THIS END?

Are we going to be prevented from ordering ANYTHING that says "Civil Air Patrol" on it from any other source from Vanguard? This includes things like t-shirts and other misc clothing items (for encampments and other activities), trophies and plaques, promotional items? If so, you won't be able to go to your local trophy shop and order anything if it says "CAP" on it.

Are we going to be prevented from selling anything CAP related on eBay?

Will units be prevented from selling any items as a fund raiser if the item they are selling has any of the intellectual property items discussed in this forum?

I can understand why CAP went with Vanguard. I can understand how we got to this point. I have very little hope that this is going to get resolved in the way we want it to. But my biggest fear is that this is just the beginning of total Vanguard domination.

[JC004]

Some of this C&D is irritating because they do it on things that we cannot get from Vanguard or cost substantially more from Vanguard, like when they have done this with suppliers of fabric strip nametapes (NOT available from Vanguard), challenge coins, and unit patches. 

For one thing, fabric strip nametapes/branch tapes are awesome and the quality that I got from them on the embroidery alone was FAR superior to that of Vanguard.  Not to mention the fact that the embroidery on the nametape and CAP tape MATCHED. 

When I was visiting the local Coast Guard Auxiliary flotilla, a guy showed me a guide that they have published by the Auxiliary.  It lists the authorized vendors (yes, plural) and what is authorized from each vendor.  That is what we need.

STOP costing us extra money.  You want to talk retention?  Let's talk why CAP is universally referred to as "Come and Pay" across the country.

[RiverAux]

When I was visiting the local Coast Guard Auxiliary flotilla, a guy showed me a guide that they have published by the Auxiliary.  It lists the authorized vendors (yes, plural) and what is authorized from each vendor.  That is what we need.

What ends up happening is that you have to buy stuff from multiple vendors since no one carries everything you need.  It is sort of a pain. 

[ascorbate]

...and now there is a Facebook page for it:  http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=333621608998

500 people have already joined the "Save the Hock Shop" cause on Facebook!

[davidsinn]

When I was visiting the local Coast Guard Auxiliary flotilla, a guy showed me a guide that they have published by the Auxiliary.  It lists the authorized vendors (yes, plural) and what is authorized from each vendor.  That is what we need.

What ends up happening is that you have to buy stuff from multiple vendors since no one carries everything you need.  It is sort of a pain.

And that is different from now, how?

[tdepp]

Are we going to be prevented from selling anything CAP related on eBay?

Will units be prevented from selling any items as a fund raiser if the item they are selling has any of the intellectual property items discussed in this forum?

In my opinion, no.  Under the "first sale doctrine," it only applies to someone who first sells the item other than the rights owner or a licensee. After the initial sale, the item can be resold without fear of being accused of infringement.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

As to the squadron sales, if they are re-selling items purchased lawfully, same answer.  If they are making CAP items, a dicier situation, IMLO.  I don't know what permissions or licenses, if any, the organization has given its wings, groups, and squadrons to manufacture or sell their own items with CAP, et al on them. 

Think about it.  Otherwise, commerce would come to a screeching halt if anything with intellectual property on it couldn't be sold on the after market. 

[davidsinn]

Otherwise, commerce would come to a screeching halt if anything with intellectual property on it couldn't be sold on the after market.

No commerce would look like the music and movie industry. ie a royal charlie foxtrot.

[Eclipse]

I am against this action, but my biggest concern is...WHERE WILL THIS END?

Are we going to be prevented from ordering ANYTHING that says "Civil Air Patrol" on it from any other source from Vanguard? This includes things like t-shirts and other misc clothing items (for encampments and other activities), trophies and plaques, promotional items? If so, you won't be able to go to your local trophy shop and order anything if it says "CAP" on it.

Are we going to be prevented from selling anything CAP related on eBay?

Will units be prevented from selling any items as a fund raiser if the item they are selling has any of the intellectual property items discussed in this forum?

I can understand why CAP went with Vanguard. I can understand how we got to this point. I have very little hope that this is going to get resolved in the way we want it to. But my biggest fear is that this is just the beginning of total Vanguard domination.

Technically, Vanguard has exclusivity on any indices the corporation owns, including local squadron insignia, etc.  This has been asserted
regularly by VG when they are asked, especially about unit patches.

As mentioned, first-sale is basically the issue, as well as whether the the items are being made for non-profit member use, or commercial sale.  Members have some rights themselves for business-use of the indices, so internal sales back to other members becomes an internal policy issue, not a civil or criminal infringement situation.  Were VG to be so inclined, they could certainly complain to CAP about contract violations when they find a given squadron or activity has gone elsewhere for a product.  CAP, Inc.'s fortitude in disciplining the membership would then have to be balanced against the Corporation's needs and whether VG even provides a given product. 

Real-world enforceability depends on the agreement and the money involved.  VG is not going to spend more than an email on one unit's patches, but starting selling more than a few co-branded Android phones and see how fast those C&D's hit your mail box.

For all the people screaming "Vanguard Domination", consider that there is basically a single official source for USAF uniforms as well (AAFES/MCSS), and the only reason you can buy some military insignia and other uniform parts from other sources is because they are either used universally by other services, and most of the world, or they are under some sort of license.

These are market forces, not anti-member conspiracies.  Few vendors will want to take the time and expense of creating dies and setups for patches for what would literally be a few sales a year.  VG's exclusivity gives them the ability to take on these setup expenses and spread them across the whole line.  In many of our conversations here, we hold VG responsible for failings of CAP to rein in the constant uniform and insignia changes.

And then there's the $200k+ sent back to CAP.  Again, argue with the CAP leadership about price points and the agreement (since CAP apparently rarely properly exercises its purchasing power), but they did give us back $200K+.

[davidsinn]

How does CAP Inc. own my unit's patch? I don't remember signing over my rights to the image to any corporate officer after I designed it.

[Eclipse]

How does CAP Inc. own my unit's patch? I don't remember signing over my rights to the image to any corporate officer after I designed it.

It has to be approved by Wing in order to wear it, and upon that approval becomes a corporate asset.

[davidsinn]

How does CAP Inc. own my unit's patch? I don't remember signing over my rights to the image to any corporate officer after I designed it.

It has to be approved by Wing in order to wear it, and upon that approval becomes a corporate asset.

Approved for wear yes but I never signed over my rights. Does that mean that all the approved military badges are corporate assets too? The right hand flag as well?

[Spike]

Eclipse... It does?   

The mere fact that unit patches can be made by any vendor by choice makes me think that it is not "corporate" property.

I never signed my unit patch design over to CAP.  Approval of a design does not take away the rights of the creator.

That would be like saying "here is my crayon drawing of my house, my teacher said it was acceptable to turn in for a grade".....does the teacher or school district own my picture now??

[Eclipse]

Your example is not relevant to this discussion.  As a matter of course, when I do all of my patches, I actually do assign all rights to the corporation in perpetuity for non-commercial internal use to avoid this very discussion.  The last thing a unit wants is a disgruntled
member suing them because they want their patch back.

I maintain that once it goes on the uniform it belongs to CAP, Inc.

However it probably takes Ned to comment definitively.

[Cecil DP]

Eclipse... It does?   

The mere fact that unit patches can be made by any vendor by choice makes me think that it is not "corporate" property.

I never signed my unit patch design over to CAP.  Approval of a design does not take away the rights of the creator.

That would be like saying "here is my crayon drawing of my house, my teacher said it was acceptable to turn in for a grade".....does the teacher or school district own my picture now??

Do you think universities require a massive investment in the printing and publication of Masters and Doctoral Theseus because it's your property. They do revert to the college in exchange fore the degree.