The Hock Shop hit with lawsuit?

[a2capt]

Why CAP doesn't simply agree to terms with The Hock is beyond me.  They could very easily insist on some cash for use of CAP's distinctive images.

We don't know that either side didn't try to come to terms. The court filing is dated Aug. 2009. You gotta figure they have been discussing it back and forth since.

Since neither side is talking, who knows. Maybe NHQ did say "you have xxx to sell out and stop".. and maybe Tom said "no." With the August date and the February posting, thats six months of time.

CAP is not alone in sole sourcing.  But CAP is in a rather unique pickle because the Hock was a supplier for quite some time.

Yes, what Vangard did when they started was pretty despicable, and equally as so, how long it's taken to improve. It certainly seemed as if CAP was a bad step child to Vanguard, the way they presented their stuff, the purchasing experience, et al. Where as when some of us would just fax in a CAPMart order sheet, everything was correct in the order. Using their phone sales, or even their web sales, and you generally got a screwed up order. Go figure that out.

Until the proceedings are made public, we will never know the extent of what negotiations went on. But simply painting NHQ is cold blooded heartless towards a long standing member, isn't exactly right either.  Getting it from one side, isn't going to be exactly unbiased either. So it's really hard to tell across the board.

I do think the best is two suppliers. It gives us a choice, there are times when I know not to order from the Hock because I'm going to get something I feel is substandard quality, likewise there are times I know not to order from Vanguard.

[davidsinn]

Capt. Epp is quite correct in his assessment.  We need money without raising dues (which hasn't been done in years).  If anyone wants to give CAP $60k a year, I'm sure CAP can revisit the Vangard contract

Hmmmm 57k members times $2 equals $114k. Problem solved. Ditch Vanguard.

[Hawk200]

Capt. Epp is quite correct in his assessment.  We need money without raising dues (which hasn't been done in years).  If anyone wants to give CAP $60k a year, I'm sure CAP can revisit the Vangard contract

Hmmmm 57k members times $2 equals $114k. Problem solved. Ditch Vanguard.

I can live with that.

[Fuzzy]

The shipping deal is interesting though.

I'm using the opportunity to stock up on my next grade insignia. All together with cloth insignia, large insignia, small insignia, and gortex tab insignia plus shipping and handling. The total came out to be less than half what vanguard is offering, when you factor in shipping.

EDIT: Probably not less than half looking back. Still a deal is a deal.

Yeah I went ahead and went with the hock.

The only thing I have to go to vanguard for is my unauthorized subdued insignia 



http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7_472_477

[Rotorhead]

...and now there is a Facebook page for it:  http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=333621608998

500 people have already joined the "Save the Hock Shop" cause on Facebook!

Now almost 900.

..and it will have no effect whatsoever.

You never know... Well over 1,000 members now...

All these kinds of things do is allow people to feel like they are "doing something" while not actually having to actually do much of anything.

What's the impact to Vanguard or CAP if this Facebook group gets 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 members?

Nothing. Not a thing.

[capdad]

I certainly believe that there should be a choice in who to purchase from and whoever gives the best price and service would get my business.  On the other hand, if there are too many suppliers, it may be hard to get someone who will provide a good supply due to low volume ordering.

I have ordered from both and have had bad experiences with both.  I have had slow service from Vanguard.  I have received orders with errors from The Hock and couldn't get them to reply to my emails.  More than once.  I say offer it to the open market and lock in the price at the lowest bidder and anyone who wants to match it is welcome to do so with a limit of 3 first come first serve.

I don't like strong arm tactics but I am not happy with either suppliers.

[MobyDick]

Ive been lurking for a long time had to chime in on this though.  Ive been watching closely and my blood is boiling.  Hope these links help the discussion.

This guys wants to do something  :clap: and wants information:

http://capvine.com/chatter/741-civil-air-patrol-nhq-lawsuit-against-hocks-owner-tom-flanagan-civil-air-patrol-member.html

Here's the facebook page:  Over 1300 members already!

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&gid=333621608998

A Twitter page just got started too:

http://twitter.com/SaveTheHockShop

And of course the blogosphere is buzzing:

http://bit.ly/9ulwLN

[flyboy53]

I wonder if any one from NHQ actually views this website and realizes just how really ticked off people are on this subject?

[RiverAux]

On the other hand, if there are too many suppliers, it may be hard to get someone who will provide a good supply due to low volume ordering.

That is really a self-correcting problem for the business.  If there were 10 possible suppliers, sure some of them would have high prices due to low volume, but more likely others would have lower prices.  What do we care if some of those suppliers aren't good enough at their jobs to make a profit.  Unless CAP is going to run it themselves, the option that gives the best opportunity for CAP members to get the lowest prices for CAP-specific items is to license out the rights whenever our contract with Vanguard expires.  Competition will give us a better deal than a for-profit monopoly every time. 

[addo1]

Ive been lurking for a long time had to chime in on this though.  Ive been watching closely and my blood is boiling.  Hope these links help the discussion.

This guys wants to do something  :clap: and wants information:

http://capvine.com/chatter/741-civil-air-patrol-nhq-lawsuit-against-hocks-owner-tom-flanagan-civil-air-patrol-member.html

Here's the facebook page:  Over 1300 members already!

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&gid=333621608998

A Twitter page just got started too:

http://twitter.com/SaveTheHockShop

And of course the blogosphere is buzzing:

http://bit.ly/9ulwLN

In addition, here is someone who is actually taking action: http://citizenspeak.org/node/1943

[Spike]

^ Feel free to that, and when your "organization" is included along with your petition, you will be looking at a 2b.  As members we support the actions of our superiors (even if we don't agree with them, or think they are stupid), it is in the oath.

It is time to move on from this topic.  It sucks for Tom, but he knew it was coming.  It sucks for all of us, because it is one less supplier we can look to for CAP items.  Is it fair?  NO!  Is it legal?  You bet it is.

No one here seems to know how a business operates.  That is what CAP is.....a business.  You may think it not, but in all areas it is.

The Civil Air Patrol is a Not-For-Profit Company.  If you want to argue anything, lets bring up the salaries at the National Headquarters instead.  How much does the Executive Director make?  What about the "Protocol" assistant? 

Come on people.  We all knew this was coming as well.  If we wanted to help out Tom, we should have stepped forward years ago and protested Nationals actions then!

[heliodoc]

Checked a few of these out

Surely CAP NHQ HAD to be expecting this fallout..

If they were not prepared.....well....what does the membership do then,huh?

Any CAPTalk experts answer this one.....especially the CAP outhouse lawyers.

Gonna get interesting......Can see it now ...Hock Shop and CAP in Court for yeeeedeeeeeears

I am all for Tom.  If the social media can put pressure on ......so be it   .......CAP may need this to "humble up."

I for one, DO NOT feel sorry for CAP in the least. 

Someone taking action??  Surprising is it?   Quicker than planning any Winter or Summer Board meetings, huh?

CAP needs a house cleaning...maybe  social media will put some pressure on an 68 yr old 501 (c) 3 organization that may really, in this respect, put it into motion.

Stay tuned for the fun!!

[lordmonar]

Heliodoc are you suggesting that CAP HQ cares about CT, Social Media, or that stupid letter campaign from Citzen Speak?

Second....CAP and Hock will not be in court for years.  It will be over quick one way or the other.

Third....as members the only think we can do about this is quit!  Don't like NHQ's policies...voice your concerns ....but don't like the response....all we can do is quit.

[heliodoc]

You know, Pat

I can tow the CAP company line quite well and I have and will not believe a whole lot on social media nor do I believe alot here on CAPTalk.

It maybe over very quickly, you very well could be right.

No CAP NHQ does not care about CT, social media, stupid letter campaigns nor does CAP NHQ really care about what PAPA 1AF thinks either, nor does it fare very well with the CAP members.  I know 70 and 80 year olds in CAP wondering what in God's Earth is everyone doing there at Maxwell except dreamin up stuff and doing quite well at thieving oxygen!

It is VERY apparent that numbers are quitting CAP due to many reasons, but CAP NHQ makes no bones about where their sense of humility and humbleness is.  I often wonder where these volunteer and paid "adults" make there GOB types of decisions

CAP can play its corporate deal.  Maybe in the near or not so distant future, CAP actions could be more of an issue with the AF.

I may be pretty off base in  my thoughts, but there a lot of "I told you so's" in CAP.  I will continue to drive on in this organization with the so called "Missions for America."

But someday CAP may get or need a swift fanny kicking either by the AF or possibly the Hock vs CAP issues..... we will see if its over quickly

Every one here on CAPTalk knows ALL, don't they?

[Gunner C]

Heliodoc are you suggesting that CAP HQ cares about CT, Social Media, or that stupid letter campaign from Citzen Speak?

If they didn't care, then why did so many NB agenda items items suddenly appear that were VERY close to the discussion here on CT ref: corporate uniforms?  They saw the upwelling of anger and saw the writing on the wall.  When we're mad enough, they listen and react to it.

[heliodoc]

Gunner

You may be right....But I am sure the AF issues on the uniform CRAP we a driver

The anger of the "Corporate" membership was the fallout about spending dinero on a pretty uniform

Stay tuned..... I am sure there is more silliness in CAP to correct than uniform issues

Issues like getting back to practicality (sp) which CAP has SOOO easily been de railed from

CAP needs an a CAP RAP or an AF rep to steer a rudderless ship into the 21st Century of common sense which CAP is becoming clueless especially with operating with other agencies.  CAP folks in some areas might do well with other agencies, but the good majority of SAREX's still have CAP centric missions

But the Hock vs CAP outcome will be interesting

[Zen Master Charlie]

I just find it funny that all of the people who think The Hock has bad sevice, said they stoped using it years and years ago... and now the use Vanguard because they think its better... I was our SQ's Supply Sgt up until I got my Mitchell, and I ordered from a verity of sites, now our squadron exclusivley purchases from the Hock because its service is much more reliable (take it from aperson who spent thousands of dollars on CAP equipment) over the 3 years I was supply Sgt, I was able to find the best most reliabel site through trial and error. Though things were often on back order from the Hock, it only lasted about 2 weeks ON AVERAGE. Back order from Vanguard meant about 5-6 weeks ON AVERAGE. Once had to wait 4 months to get a few nametapes.

Anyway, my point was, I think those who started exclusively ordering form CAPMART/Vanguard many years ago, should try the Hock again when they get back up. I find it a little biased what some people have said here... 

[Zen Master Charlie]

Not to mention I have a thing against Monopolies!     I was down at Buckly AFB the other day, explorin through the BX, when I noticed... the wall of insignia was pure red packaging! Vanguard IS becoming a monopoly, and I personally dont appriciate it, just my opinion...

[BillB]

Over the past few years, It's obvious that the National Board think "corporate think" and the almoghty dollar. Many of the new regulations seem to protect the corporation, not the members. The Board of Governors is a joke since they only hear what the corporation officers let them hear. Members of CAP have no voice in the corporation, other than their Wing Commander, who as a corporate officer thinks only of the corporation. It appears the Ntional Commander is not a member of the Good-Old-Boy network and really cares for the organization.
But CAP entered into a contract with Vanguard that provides the Corporation funds. So don't excpect that to change

[Spike]

I was our SQ's Supply Sgt up until I got my Mitchell, and I ordered from a verity of sites, now our squadron exclusively purchases from the Hock because its service is much more reliable (take it from person who spent thousands of dollars on CAP equipment) over the 3 years I was supply Sgt, I was able to find the best most reliable site through trial and error. Though things were often on back order from the Hock, it only lasted about 2 weeks ON AVERAGE. Back order from Vanguard meant about 5-6 weeks ON AVERAGE. Once had to wait 4 months to get a few nametapes.

No Cadet.  I seriously doubt you waited 4 months for nametapes.  I have never heard of a 5 week backorder by Vanguard either.  Are you telling me you spent thousands of dollars buying materials for you Squadron through Vanguard?  How did you pay for all that? 

Not to mention I have a thing against Monopolies!     I was down at Buckly AFB the other day, exploring through the BX, when I noticed... the wall of insignia was pure red packaging! Vanguard IS becoming a monopoly, and I personally dont appriciate it, just my opinion...

Guess Buckly AFB is doing their own thing at the MCSS.  Ira Green Inc, Marlow White and Vanguard all share in the AAFES contracts almost equally.  Even the Marine Corps/ Navy Exchanges have a fairly even divide-up for ribbons, and uniform bling.

I will also say that many uniform items sold through AAFES is an AAFES production in AAFES packaging.  I would guess that they buy from the cheapest producer and package in AAFES branded bags/boxes.

All Government entities follow GAO/GSA guidelines for procurement of products and materials.  AAFES is no different.  They buy from the cheapest bidder.  Sometimes it is Vanguard, other times it is Marlow White etc. 

If anything needs changing it is CAP Procurement.  We should bid out contracts and vet them through the DLA (Defense Logistics Agency).  I believe that at the time, Vanguard was the best offer, and did in fact beat out Marlow White (they were going to make CAP the first organization that they catered to specifically).

I still can't believe you were in charge of ordering for your Squadron.

SIDE NOTE......How do you like your internet service?  Have your been on an AMTRAK train before?  How is your public education working for you?  Mail anything at the post office lately?  How is your local bus service?  You like using Dollar Bills?  Do you like your electricity?  How is your gas heater in winter?  Watch Television today?  The List can go on.  My POINT is that there are monopolies everywhere.  When you get past Econ 101, I would be happy debate the issue more.