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Author Topic: CAP politics  (Read 9357 times)
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« on: October 07, 2006, 02:10:14 PM »

I dont really like to get involved in the politics of CAP. I just volunteer my time and try to do the best job I can. But I am seeing some things in my Wing and hearing things I am not comfortable with. Recently we had a Wing Commander Change of Command. He had only been inthe position for 5 months. I heard( and this is only hearsay) that he was fired by the Nationalommander. Can the national Commander really fire people from positions?? How do you fire a volunteer? Someone who is volunteering his time to help an organization. Is this possible? It makes no sence to me. DOes the National CC have that kind of power that he can just get rid of volunteers at his wim? This is affecting the Wing because a lot of good Senior Member staff members are leaving in protest. Thats gonna hurt us in the long run. Again, I am not trying to get involved. I am just trying to understand. We nver had these kinds of issues a few years back.
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afgeo4
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,566

« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2006, 01:12:05 PM »

Yes, the National Commander can fire a Wing Commander.  I'm sure the Region CC had a say in it as well which just fortifies the Nat CC's decision.  However, I think your real question is can someone fire a volunteer.  The answer is simple.  Yes.  Voluteering is a job, just like one that is paid.  You have certain standards to meet and goals to achieve.  Imagine if all CAP members didn't do their jobs.  The organization would fall apart at the seams in a matter of months!  In fact, I think it is the commander's duty to fire a member who is in a leadership position and isn't doing a good job.  It is a duty that commander has to us, not to himself or his superiors.  We deserve the best commanders that are out there!  Also, please don't forget that this commander, although fired from his leadership position, is probably still a member and thus a volunteer.  He just isn't a Wing King anymore, that's all. 

As far as the SM strike is concerned, the only people they're hurting are the everyday heroes (aka squadron members) of CAP.  These actions only show immaturity and lack of professionalism on the part of these officers.  Remember, just because we refuse to do our jobs, planes don't stop crashing, rivers don't stop flooding, cadets don't become adults all of a sudden, and all the teachers don't suddenly know how aircraft and spacecraft operate.  Please remember, and remind your colleagues that our duties are to the country and its citizens, not to ourselves.

INTEGRITY FIRST!
SERVICE BEFORE SELF!
EXCELLENCE IN ALL WE DO!

I am former USAFR enlisted, so I will stick to these 3 basic rules and omit the last one because I believe volunteering has nothing to do with character of work.  Keep these in mind whether you get paid for work or not!  Learn it, Live it, Love it.
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GEORGE LURYE
BlackKnight
Seasoned Member

Posts: 221
Unit: SER-GA-043

Rome Composite Squadron
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2006, 04:14:42 PM »

...
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 04:25:48 PM by BlackKnight » Logged
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2006, 01:11:00 PM »

I was actually teying NOT to mentionthe specific wing. DOnt want to put our dirty laundry out to the public. Thanks
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flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2006, 01:13:08 PM »

Wow, you ugys really take CAP very seriously. I guess Ilook at it for what it is. When I was in Iraq, I would email the natl CC all the time it was no big deal. He is a volunteer like me. I look at him the same way Ilook at that brand new SM volunteering to help.
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BlackKnight
Seasoned Member

Posts: 221
Unit: SER-GA-043

Rome Composite Squadron
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2006, 10:08:56 AM »

...
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 04:24:35 PM by BlackKnight » Logged
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,986

« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2006, 01:13:33 PM »

  In fact, I think it is the commander's duty to fire a member who is in a leadership position and isn't doing a good job.  It is a duty that commander has to us, not to himself or his superiors.  We deserve the best commanders that are out there!  Also, please don't forget that this commander, although fired from his leadership position, is probably still a member and thus a volunteer.  He just isn't a Wing King anymore, that's all. 

As far as the SM strike is concerned, the only people they're hurting are the everyday heroes (aka squadron members) of CAP.  These actions only show immaturity and lack of professionalism on the part of these officers.   

First, as I have stated elsewhere in this forum and will continue to do whenever the opportunity arises, "Wing King" is a thoroughly offensive term that only reinforces the atmosphere of an utter lack of accountability on the part of the corporate officers.

Secondly, in view of your feelings about incompetent commanders, I was curious how you felt about senior commanders who removed subordinate commanders for reasons such as : personal vendettas, failing to vote as the region or national commander wishes, or simply the desire to create a vacancy for a crony to obtain a pair of shiny new eagles.

Finally, with regard to your comment about the lack of maturity and professionalism of those who vote with their feet, basically, I say how dare you comment and generalize on situations about which you know nothing?!?

Once upon a time, Captain, I would have agreed with you....a time when this organization actually tried to reflect the values and traditions of the USAF....right now, sadly, we are in a time when CAP more closely mirrors a Martin Scorsese film than "Strategic Air Command"....and since our members have so little say in what transpires, sometimes the only thing an officer of true integrity can do in the face of venal corruption in the upper ranks is withhold (or re-direct) services, so as not to enable  or support a command based on anything BUT core values.
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flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2006, 07:19:06 PM »



[/quote]
GAWG were all over the internet on other CAP forums by mid-Sept. There was even one CAP-related site that had a forum thread (complete with a cartoon tombstone marker) opened on the subject within 48 hours of our former Wing CC having submitted his 'resignation' letter. 
[/quote]

What website was this?
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PKS
Newbie

Posts: 4

« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2006, 08:58:17 PM »

Once upon a time, Captain, I would have agreed with you....a time when this organization actually tried to reflect the values and traditions of the USAF....right now, sadly, we are in a time when CAP more closely mirrors a Martin Scorsese film than "Strategic Air Command"....and since our members have so little say in what transpires, sometimes the only thing an officer of true integrity can do in the face of venal corruption in the upper ranks is withhold (or re-direct) services, so as not to enable  or support a command based on anything BUT core values.

ZigZag, You need to come spend some time at our squadron; regardless of the distance it would restore your faith in CAP.   A good many of us are ex-military and wear these uniforms as proudly as we did our others, and we wear them to every meeting, all of the time.  We have a Squadron Commander who believes in setting the best example he possibly can, we train both ground teams and air crews on a regular basis, we're always helping other squadrons in some way, shape, or form, and we just have an outstanding group of people who love being involved in CAP.  Many of us wish we could quit our jobs and do this full time!  I believe we had close to 15 people attend the Wing conference and it was 300 miles away, but that's just the way we are.  We work hard, we play hard, and with all of the upheavals at wing, we will continue to train, and learn, and do our best because that's just how our squadron operates.

Oh, and BlackKnight?  Those are my everyday CAP boots: flight line, ground team, you name it,  and they ALWAYS look like that.  ;D
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2Lt. Pamela Skaff
Flight Line Supervisor
PDK Senior Squadron
SER GA 130 "Ready To Roll"
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,986

« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2006, 12:55:18 PM »

Once upon a time, Captain, I would have agreed with you....a time when this organization actually tried to reflect the values and traditions of the USAF....right now, sadly, we are in a time when CAP more closely mirrors a Martin Scorsese film than "Strategic Air Command"....and since our members have so little say in what transpires, sometimes the only thing an officer of true integrity can do in the face of venal corruption in the upper ranks is withhold (or re-direct) services, so as not to enable  or support a command based on anything BUT core values.

ZigZag, You need to come spend some time at our squadron; regardless of the distance it would restore your faith in CAP.   A good many of us are ex-military and wear these uniforms as proudly as we did our others, and we wear them to every meeting, all of the time.  We have a Squadron Commander who believes in setting the best example he possibly can, we train both ground teams and air crews on a regular basis, we're always helping other squadrons in some way, shape, or form, and we just have an outstanding group of people who love being involved in CAP.  Many of us wish we could quit our jobs and do this full time!  I believe we had close to 15 people attend the Wing conference and it was 300 miles away, but that's just the way we are.  We work hard, we play hard, and with all of the upheavals at wing, we will continue to train, and learn, and do our best because that's just how our squadron operates.

Oh, and BlackKnight?  Those are my everyday CAP boots: flight line, ground team, you name it,  and they ALWAYS look like that.  ;D

Sounds like a lot of fun, the way CAP is supposed to be, especially for you folks in the units, doing the work in the local communities.

If I ever get to georgia, I'll make it a point to stop by!
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flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2006, 03:19:55 PM »

PKS is right, that is the way a unit should be run.
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ande.boyer
Member

Posts: 81

« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2006, 04:59:47 PM »



GAWG were all over the internet on other CAP forums by mid-Sept. There was even one CAP-related site that had a forum thread (complete with a cartoon tombstone marker) opened on the subject within 48 hours of our former Wing CC having submitted his 'resignation' letter. 
[/quote]

What website was this?
[/quote]

I think http://www.civilairportal.com
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flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2006, 05:32:52 PM »

Wow. I just read the whole thread on civalairportal about my former Wing CC> I didnt realize peoples business was allover the internet like that. People actually dedicated three pages to talk about this situation mostly of which has nothing to do with them and they fot a lot of information wrong. I guess its like any other media outlet if you dont know the whole information, communication gets skewed.

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afgeo4
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,566

« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2006, 01:05:44 AM »

If you aren't happy with the CAP Core Values, USAF terminology (culture), or responsibility...

Might I suggest serving our country from your couch? 

There are many members in this organization that work very hard on staying true to the honor code, history, customs, curtesies, and work ethic of the Civil Air Patrol.  I'm very sad that you don't sound like one of them Zig Zag, but really, do you mind not undoing our work for us?  Please, either join the club or find a new one.
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GEORGE LURYE
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,986

« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2006, 01:19:44 AM »

If you aren't happy with the CAP Core Values, USAF terminology (culture), or responsibility...

Might I suggest serving our country from your couch? 

There are many members in this organization that work very hard on staying true to the honor code, history, customs, curtesies, and work ethic of the Civil Air Patrol.  I'm very sad that you don't sound like one of them Zig Zag, but really, do you mind not undoing our work for us?  Please, either join the club or find a new one.

Captain, I am 100% FOR the CAP Core Values....evidently you misunderstood me.....I am raising objections to the cronyism that is presently rampant in Civil Air Patrol, in which individuals without any significant experience -- military, CAP, or outside -- are given eagles and sent on their way to command wings and regions.

I have been involved with CAP for decades...have seen good commanders, mediocre commanders, some who inspired, others who just about kept the wheels moving....but never before have I seen a situation such as we presently face, in which it is TOTALLY 'who you know', and, more to the point, 'whose side you're on'.

I detest this nonsense as much as anyone, and long for a time when the National Board members make decisions on a more objective basis...and when members of that body are selected based on qualification, experience, and ability -- in other words, merit!

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Johnny Yuma
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 612

« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2006, 04:39:30 PM »

  In fact, I think it is the commander's duty to fire a member who is in a leadership position and isn't doing a good job.  It is a duty that commander has to us, not to himself or his superiors.  We deserve the best commanders that are out there!  Also, please don't forget that this commander, although fired from his leadership position, is probably still a member and thus a volunteer.  He just isn't a Wing King anymore, that's all. 

As far as the SM strike is concerned, the only people they're hurting are the everyday heroes (aka squadron members) of CAP.  These actions only show immaturity and lack of professionalism on the part of these officers.   



First, as I have stated elsewhere in this forum and will continue to do whenever the opportunity arises, "Wing King" is a thoroughly offensive term that only reinforces the atmosphere of an utter lack of accountability on the part of the corporate officers.

Secondly, in view of your feelings about incompetent commanders, I was curious how you felt about senior commanders who removed subordinate commanders for reasons such as : personal vendettas, failing to vote as the region or national commander wishes, or simply the desire to create a vacancy for a crony to obtain a pair of shiny new eagles.

Finally, with regard to your comment about the lack of maturity and professionalism of those who vote with their feet, basically, I say how dare you comment and generalize on situations about which you know nothing?!?

Once upon a time, Captain, I would have agreed with you....a time when this organization actually tried to reflect the values and traditions of the USAF....right now, sadly, we are in a time when CAP more closely mirrors a Martin Scorsese film than "Strategic Air Command"....and since our members have so little say in what transpires, sometimes the only thing an officer of true integrity can do in the face of venal corruption in the upper ranks is withhold (or re-direct) services, so as not to enable  or support a command based on anything BUT core values.

ZigZag,

There's one exception: KSWG's CC is named King and one of the good guys. West Pointer, retired Army aviator and presently a university professor teaching aviation. He got "Wing King" honestly.

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"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"
 
" Skip a bit, brother."
 
"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,986

« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2006, 07:22:33 PM »

In this one instance, I'll concede the point!
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Psicorp
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 605

« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2006, 02:35:21 PM »

I just noticed the "National Commander" thingy on the NHQ website front page.   I haven't had a chance to sit and look through everyone on it entirely, but unless I've missed it, what is missing from such a page/site are:

1) A "where we are and where we are headed" column.  This would be a great chance to explain to every member exactly what our leadership's thoughts are on our relationship with the Air Force, FEMA, and Homeland Security.   Thoughts on what we can expect in the near extended future regarding these relationships, and what is being done to improve or continue our relationship with not only our parental organization (Air Force), but also with other governmental agencies.  It would also be nice to read what our relationship is like with Congress and what we are doing to improve or maintain our relationships and Charter commitments.

2) A "recent decisions explained" column.  Gods forbid we should expect our leadership to explain policy and personnel changes.  Even something as vauge as "In order to best serve the interests and goals of C.A.P....." or "To improve our image....", etc.

3) An "Air Force policy or Congressional decision that either has, will soon, or might impact C.A.P." column.   With the dawn of the Information Age, ideas and policies change and are created much quicker than they used to.  We are able to look down the pipeline with a lantern rather than the candle of years past.   

I think it's possible to still maintain the "Ivory Tower" image, if that's what NHQ wants, but still pass along information rather than leave us rank and file members in the dark and at the mercy of the "grape vine".

Just a thought.
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Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257
Major_Chuck
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 554

« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2006, 09:03:54 PM »

Firing wing and region commanders has become a regular past time of power hungry Tony Pineda.   A" strike" by the officers won't accomplish anything, only hurt us little people in the field. What would be  more effective is for membership to constantly express their displeasure with the poor NHQ leadership to  your National Board Members.
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Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard
ELTHunter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 346
Unit: SER-TN-170

« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2006, 09:15:33 PM »

I haven't thought this completely through, but the strike idea has crossed my mind also.  Although it runs counter to what I would usually believe, I'm not seeing a lot of options for rank and file members to make a statment that gets recognized at the upper levels of command.  As the national statistics show us, I personally know members who have resigned their memberships because of the politics in the organization.  Some of these members are quality members, and just the type of people we need to be retaining.  However, by resigning, we lose thier badly needed experience, and they lose qualifications they have worked, in some cases for several years, to develope.

By initiating a coordinated "strike" on all non-emergency activities and missions, it might get someone's attention that folks are fed up without having to resort to complete resignation.
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Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer
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