Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 19, 2018, 03:39:14 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: CAP politics
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 2 3 [All] Print
Author Topic: CAP politics  (Read 9193 times)
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« on: October 07, 2006, 02:10:14 PM »

I dont really like to get involved in the politics of CAP. I just volunteer my time and try to do the best job I can. But I am seeing some things in my Wing and hearing things I am not comfortable with. Recently we had a Wing Commander Change of Command. He had only been inthe position for 5 months. I heard( and this is only hearsay) that he was fired by the Nationalommander. Can the national Commander really fire people from positions?? How do you fire a volunteer? Someone who is volunteering his time to help an organization. Is this possible? It makes no sence to me. DOes the National CC have that kind of power that he can just get rid of volunteers at his wim? This is affecting the Wing because a lot of good Senior Member staff members are leaving in protest. Thats gonna hurt us in the long run. Again, I am not trying to get involved. I am just trying to understand. We nver had these kinds of issues a few years back.
Logged
afgeo4
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,566

« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2006, 01:12:05 PM »

Yes, the National Commander can fire a Wing Commander.  I'm sure the Region CC had a say in it as well which just fortifies the Nat CC's decision.  However, I think your real question is can someone fire a volunteer.  The answer is simple.  Yes.  Voluteering is a job, just like one that is paid.  You have certain standards to meet and goals to achieve.  Imagine if all CAP members didn't do their jobs.  The organization would fall apart at the seams in a matter of months!  In fact, I think it is the commander's duty to fire a member who is in a leadership position and isn't doing a good job.  It is a duty that commander has to us, not to himself or his superiors.  We deserve the best commanders that are out there!  Also, please don't forget that this commander, although fired from his leadership position, is probably still a member and thus a volunteer.  He just isn't a Wing King anymore, that's all. 

As far as the SM strike is concerned, the only people they're hurting are the everyday heroes (aka squadron members) of CAP.  These actions only show immaturity and lack of professionalism on the part of these officers.  Remember, just because we refuse to do our jobs, planes don't stop crashing, rivers don't stop flooding, cadets don't become adults all of a sudden, and all the teachers don't suddenly know how aircraft and spacecraft operate.  Please remember, and remind your colleagues that our duties are to the country and its citizens, not to ourselves.

INTEGRITY FIRST!
SERVICE BEFORE SELF!
EXCELLENCE IN ALL WE DO!

I am former USAFR enlisted, so I will stick to these 3 basic rules and omit the last one because I believe volunteering has nothing to do with character of work.  Keep these in mind whether you get paid for work or not!  Learn it, Live it, Love it.
Logged
GEORGE LURYE
BlackKnight
Seasoned Member

Posts: 221
Unit: SER-GA-043

Rome Composite Squadron
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2006, 04:14:42 PM »

...
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 04:25:48 PM by BlackKnight » Logged
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2006, 01:11:00 PM »

I was actually teying NOT to mentionthe specific wing. DOnt want to put our dirty laundry out to the public. Thanks
Logged
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2006, 01:13:08 PM »

Wow, you ugys really take CAP very seriously. I guess Ilook at it for what it is. When I was in Iraq, I would email the natl CC all the time it was no big deal. He is a volunteer like me. I look at him the same way Ilook at that brand new SM volunteering to help.
Logged
BlackKnight
Seasoned Member

Posts: 221
Unit: SER-GA-043

Rome Composite Squadron
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2006, 10:08:56 AM »

...
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 04:24:35 PM by BlackKnight » Logged
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,985

« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2006, 01:13:33 PM »

  In fact, I think it is the commander's duty to fire a member who is in a leadership position and isn't doing a good job.  It is a duty that commander has to us, not to himself or his superiors.  We deserve the best commanders that are out there!  Also, please don't forget that this commander, although fired from his leadership position, is probably still a member and thus a volunteer.  He just isn't a Wing King anymore, that's all. 

As far as the SM strike is concerned, the only people they're hurting are the everyday heroes (aka squadron members) of CAP.  These actions only show immaturity and lack of professionalism on the part of these officers.   

First, as I have stated elsewhere in this forum and will continue to do whenever the opportunity arises, "Wing King" is a thoroughly offensive term that only reinforces the atmosphere of an utter lack of accountability on the part of the corporate officers.

Secondly, in view of your feelings about incompetent commanders, I was curious how you felt about senior commanders who removed subordinate commanders for reasons such as : personal vendettas, failing to vote as the region or national commander wishes, or simply the desire to create a vacancy for a crony to obtain a pair of shiny new eagles.

Finally, with regard to your comment about the lack of maturity and professionalism of those who vote with their feet, basically, I say how dare you comment and generalize on situations about which you know nothing?!?

Once upon a time, Captain, I would have agreed with you....a time when this organization actually tried to reflect the values and traditions of the USAF....right now, sadly, we are in a time when CAP more closely mirrors a Martin Scorsese film than "Strategic Air Command"....and since our members have so little say in what transpires, sometimes the only thing an officer of true integrity can do in the face of venal corruption in the upper ranks is withhold (or re-direct) services, so as not to enable  or support a command based on anything BUT core values.
Logged
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2006, 07:19:06 PM »



[/quote]
GAWG were all over the internet on other CAP forums by mid-Sept. There was even one CAP-related site that had a forum thread (complete with a cartoon tombstone marker) opened on the subject within 48 hours of our former Wing CC having submitted his 'resignation' letter. 
[/quote]

What website was this?
Logged
PKS
Newbie

Posts: 4

« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2006, 08:58:17 PM »

Once upon a time, Captain, I would have agreed with you....a time when this organization actually tried to reflect the values and traditions of the USAF....right now, sadly, we are in a time when CAP more closely mirrors a Martin Scorsese film than "Strategic Air Command"....and since our members have so little say in what transpires, sometimes the only thing an officer of true integrity can do in the face of venal corruption in the upper ranks is withhold (or re-direct) services, so as not to enable  or support a command based on anything BUT core values.

ZigZag, You need to come spend some time at our squadron; regardless of the distance it would restore your faith in CAP.   A good many of us are ex-military and wear these uniforms as proudly as we did our others, and we wear them to every meeting, all of the time.  We have a Squadron Commander who believes in setting the best example he possibly can, we train both ground teams and air crews on a regular basis, we're always helping other squadrons in some way, shape, or form, and we just have an outstanding group of people who love being involved in CAP.  Many of us wish we could quit our jobs and do this full time!  I believe we had close to 15 people attend the Wing conference and it was 300 miles away, but that's just the way we are.  We work hard, we play hard, and with all of the upheavals at wing, we will continue to train, and learn, and do our best because that's just how our squadron operates.

Oh, and BlackKnight?  Those are my everyday CAP boots: flight line, ground team, you name it,  and they ALWAYS look like that.  ;D
Logged
2Lt. Pamela Skaff
Flight Line Supervisor
PDK Senior Squadron
SER GA 130 "Ready To Roll"
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,985

« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2006, 12:55:18 PM »

Once upon a time, Captain, I would have agreed with you....a time when this organization actually tried to reflect the values and traditions of the USAF....right now, sadly, we are in a time when CAP more closely mirrors a Martin Scorsese film than "Strategic Air Command"....and since our members have so little say in what transpires, sometimes the only thing an officer of true integrity can do in the face of venal corruption in the upper ranks is withhold (or re-direct) services, so as not to enable  or support a command based on anything BUT core values.

ZigZag, You need to come spend some time at our squadron; regardless of the distance it would restore your faith in CAP.   A good many of us are ex-military and wear these uniforms as proudly as we did our others, and we wear them to every meeting, all of the time.  We have a Squadron Commander who believes in setting the best example he possibly can, we train both ground teams and air crews on a regular basis, we're always helping other squadrons in some way, shape, or form, and we just have an outstanding group of people who love being involved in CAP.  Many of us wish we could quit our jobs and do this full time!  I believe we had close to 15 people attend the Wing conference and it was 300 miles away, but that's just the way we are.  We work hard, we play hard, and with all of the upheavals at wing, we will continue to train, and learn, and do our best because that's just how our squadron operates.

Oh, and BlackKnight?  Those are my everyday CAP boots: flight line, ground team, you name it,  and they ALWAYS look like that.  ;D

Sounds like a lot of fun, the way CAP is supposed to be, especially for you folks in the units, doing the work in the local communities.

If I ever get to georgia, I'll make it a point to stop by!
Logged
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2006, 03:19:55 PM »

PKS is right, that is the way a unit should be run.
Logged
ande.boyer
Member

Posts: 81

« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2006, 04:59:47 PM »



GAWG were all over the internet on other CAP forums by mid-Sept. There was even one CAP-related site that had a forum thread (complete with a cartoon tombstone marker) opened on the subject within 48 hours of our former Wing CC having submitted his 'resignation' letter. 
[/quote]

What website was this?
[/quote]

I think http://www.civilairportal.com
Logged
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2006, 05:32:52 PM »

Wow. I just read the whole thread on civalairportal about my former Wing CC> I didnt realize peoples business was allover the internet like that. People actually dedicated three pages to talk about this situation mostly of which has nothing to do with them and they fot a lot of information wrong. I guess its like any other media outlet if you dont know the whole information, communication gets skewed.

Logged
afgeo4
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,566

« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2006, 01:05:44 AM »

If you aren't happy with the CAP Core Values, USAF terminology (culture), or responsibility...

Might I suggest serving our country from your couch? 

There are many members in this organization that work very hard on staying true to the honor code, history, customs, curtesies, and work ethic of the Civil Air Patrol.  I'm very sad that you don't sound like one of them Zig Zag, but really, do you mind not undoing our work for us?  Please, either join the club or find a new one.
Logged
GEORGE LURYE
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,985

« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2006, 01:19:44 AM »

If you aren't happy with the CAP Core Values, USAF terminology (culture), or responsibility...

Might I suggest serving our country from your couch? 

There are many members in this organization that work very hard on staying true to the honor code, history, customs, curtesies, and work ethic of the Civil Air Patrol.  I'm very sad that you don't sound like one of them Zig Zag, but really, do you mind not undoing our work for us?  Please, either join the club or find a new one.

Captain, I am 100% FOR the CAP Core Values....evidently you misunderstood me.....I am raising objections to the cronyism that is presently rampant in Civil Air Patrol, in which individuals without any significant experience -- military, CAP, or outside -- are given eagles and sent on their way to command wings and regions.

I have been involved with CAP for decades...have seen good commanders, mediocre commanders, some who inspired, others who just about kept the wheels moving....but never before have I seen a situation such as we presently face, in which it is TOTALLY 'who you know', and, more to the point, 'whose side you're on'.

I detest this nonsense as much as anyone, and long for a time when the National Board members make decisions on a more objective basis...and when members of that body are selected based on qualification, experience, and ability -- in other words, merit!

Logged
Johnny Yuma
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 612

« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2006, 04:39:30 PM »

  In fact, I think it is the commander's duty to fire a member who is in a leadership position and isn't doing a good job.  It is a duty that commander has to us, not to himself or his superiors.  We deserve the best commanders that are out there!  Also, please don't forget that this commander, although fired from his leadership position, is probably still a member and thus a volunteer.  He just isn't a Wing King anymore, that's all. 

As far as the SM strike is concerned, the only people they're hurting are the everyday heroes (aka squadron members) of CAP.  These actions only show immaturity and lack of professionalism on the part of these officers.   



First, as I have stated elsewhere in this forum and will continue to do whenever the opportunity arises, "Wing King" is a thoroughly offensive term that only reinforces the atmosphere of an utter lack of accountability on the part of the corporate officers.

Secondly, in view of your feelings about incompetent commanders, I was curious how you felt about senior commanders who removed subordinate commanders for reasons such as : personal vendettas, failing to vote as the region or national commander wishes, or simply the desire to create a vacancy for a crony to obtain a pair of shiny new eagles.

Finally, with regard to your comment about the lack of maturity and professionalism of those who vote with their feet, basically, I say how dare you comment and generalize on situations about which you know nothing?!?

Once upon a time, Captain, I would have agreed with you....a time when this organization actually tried to reflect the values and traditions of the USAF....right now, sadly, we are in a time when CAP more closely mirrors a Martin Scorsese film than "Strategic Air Command"....and since our members have so little say in what transpires, sometimes the only thing an officer of true integrity can do in the face of venal corruption in the upper ranks is withhold (or re-direct) services, so as not to enable  or support a command based on anything BUT core values.

ZigZag,

There's one exception: KSWG's CC is named King and one of the good guys. West Pointer, retired Army aviator and presently a university professor teaching aviation. He got "Wing King" honestly.

Logged
"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"
 
" Skip a bit, brother."
 
"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,985

« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2006, 07:22:33 PM »

In this one instance, I'll concede the point!
Logged
Psicorp
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 606

« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2006, 02:35:21 PM »

I just noticed the "National Commander" thingy on the NHQ website front page.   I haven't had a chance to sit and look through everyone on it entirely, but unless I've missed it, what is missing from such a page/site are:

1) A "where we are and where we are headed" column.  This would be a great chance to explain to every member exactly what our leadership's thoughts are on our relationship with the Air Force, FEMA, and Homeland Security.   Thoughts on what we can expect in the near extended future regarding these relationships, and what is being done to improve or continue our relationship with not only our parental organization (Air Force), but also with other governmental agencies.  It would also be nice to read what our relationship is like with Congress and what we are doing to improve or maintain our relationships and Charter commitments.

2) A "recent decisions explained" column.  Gods forbid we should expect our leadership to explain policy and personnel changes.  Even something as vauge as "In order to best serve the interests and goals of C.A.P....." or "To improve our image....", etc.

3) An "Air Force policy or Congressional decision that either has, will soon, or might impact C.A.P." column.   With the dawn of the Information Age, ideas and policies change and are created much quicker than they used to.  We are able to look down the pipeline with a lantern rather than the candle of years past.   

I think it's possible to still maintain the "Ivory Tower" image, if that's what NHQ wants, but still pass along information rather than leave us rank and file members in the dark and at the mercy of the "grape vine".

Just a thought.
Logged
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257
Major_Chuck
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 557

« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2006, 09:03:54 PM »

Firing wing and region commanders has become a regular past time of power hungry Tony Pineda.   A" strike" by the officers won't accomplish anything, only hurt us little people in the field. What would be  more effective is for membership to constantly express their displeasure with the poor NHQ leadership to  your National Board Members.
Logged
Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard
ELTHunter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 346
Unit: SER-TN-170

« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2006, 09:15:33 PM »

I haven't thought this completely through, but the strike idea has crossed my mind also.  Although it runs counter to what I would usually believe, I'm not seeing a lot of options for rank and file members to make a statment that gets recognized at the upper levels of command.  As the national statistics show us, I personally know members who have resigned their memberships because of the politics in the organization.  Some of these members are quality members, and just the type of people we need to be retaining.  However, by resigning, we lose thier badly needed experience, and they lose qualifications they have worked, in some cases for several years, to develope.

By initiating a coordinated "strike" on all non-emergency activities and missions, it might get someone's attention that folks are fed up without having to resort to complete resignation.
Logged
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer
ELTHunter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 346
Unit: SER-TN-170

« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2006, 09:17:31 PM »

What would be  more effective is for membership to constantly express their displeasure with the poor NHQ leadership to  your National Board Members.

What inclines the Board members to listen to the membership when we have no formal method to exact any kind of punitive damage upon them?  We can't vote.
Logged
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer
DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2006, 09:40:42 PM »

Strike? You mean like stop paperwork & local meetings? It might be an embarassment, but why would leadership care? The only people effected are your members waiting on paperwork & trying to get training. The AF won't notice unless you refuse missions on principle, and if that happens more than a couple times it's all of CAP that will take the smackdown you intended for leadership. No, if you want leadership slapped around a bit, you have to either work from the inside out or go to the source & encourage it from above.

National Board members do have great incentive to listen to membership. I know it seems counter-intuitive, but members do vote with their feet, as we've been seeing for a few years now. The problem is after a bunch of years a lot of us like to maintain our membership while not participating so we don't lose all that hard work. That doesn't show up on the vote tally. You can change a lot of big things if you focus on small parts you can influence at your level, that stuff catches on & makes a difference.

You want a long-term fix, all I can say is what we talked about over on the protal; the CAC-like 1Sgt-esque system for adults. I think that'd get some traction. And, putting the participation data from 102s into CAPWATCH so you can actually see active vs inactive members & be shocked when the national number is less than half what it looks like on paper. Both those would spur some action, but niether is a solution. I do think they're worth pursuing though & would be recieved pretty well.

Psicorp, very good ideas on that last post. Completely agree.
Logged
Major_Chuck
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 557

« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2006, 09:50:42 PM »

a wise move. Don't "strike"' on the HLS, DR, ES  and mission essential stuff. We are only hurting the customer we seek to serve.

The other option is to start ignoring the National Commander. the has little to no regard for those who disagree with him.
Logged
Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard
ELTHunter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 346
Unit: SER-TN-170

« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2006, 09:53:11 PM »

Strike? You mean like stop paperwork & local meetings? It might be an embarrassment, but why would leadership care?

Like I said, I hadn't thought this idea through.  However, by strike, I mean no training missions, no corporate missions to help with dog and pony shows, no attending conferences, etc.  Stop spending the money and Wing and Region CC's will soon be getting an incentive to see what's up.  I wouldn't refuse anything that came down from USAF.  That's really cutting your nose off to spite your face.

if you want leadership slapped around a bit, you have to either work from the inside out or go to the source & encourage it from above.

Been trying that approach for the last eight or nine years now and it's only getting worse.

National Board members do have great incentive to listen to membership. I know it seems counter-intuitive, but members do vote with their feet, as we've been seeing for a few years now. The problem is after a bunch of years a lot of us like to maintain our membership while not participating so we don't lose all that hard work. That doesn't show up on the vote tally. You can change a lot of big things if you focus on small parts you can influence at your level, that stuff catches on & makes a difference.

See above.

You want a long-term fix, all I can say is what we talked about over on the portal; the CAC-like 1Sgt-esque system for adults. I think that'd get some traction. And, putting the participation data from 102s into CAPWATCH so you can actually see active vs inactive members & be shocked when the national number is less than half what it looks like on paper. Both those would spur some action, but neither is a solution. I do think they're worth pursuing though & would be received pretty well.

Don't disagree.





Logged
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer
ELTHunter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 346
Unit: SER-TN-170

« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2006, 10:02:26 PM »

Before we go too far with this thread, let me say that I'm not necessarily advocating insurrection....what's that Honey, you say there's a General Pineda on the phone for me :) (insert tin foil hat here)  I just don't see a lot of options open to a membership body that doesn't have a real voice in the management of the organization.

At the pace that the current National Commander makes changes and consolidates power, I'm not sure a long-term approach is going to do a lot of good.  By the time change is affected (or is it effected, I can never remember), there could be a lot of damage done to the organization.
Logged
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2006, 10:03:31 PM »

If you guys have a serious problem withthe National Commander, why not just ask him? I mean this is CAP, a volunteer organization. He is not a real two star. He cant take your pay or give you extra duty if you confrnt him. Just ask him what the heck is going on.

I have concerns too. I just read the recent firing of a region commander. Its getting rediculous. I have beenin CAP since 1984 and I have NEVER seen anything like this before. You can beliebve I will be finding Pineda's email address and emailing him. Its not hard. He's an FDLE agent which means he's a public servant. Go to the FDLE website and look him up.
Logged
DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2006, 11:21:04 PM »

Well now I do believe in sticking to my chain of command, and I hate to get stomped for making waves that don't change anything. I'd hate to have that feed back on my local chain of command, or my commander in the other uniform, both of whom can make my life much less fun. If I'm going to make waves, it'll be from behind the curtain with people that can stir it up better than I.

Personally, I'd prefer not to have this going at all. I don't like the idea of burning connections that can do good for CAP to get the house in order. I'd prefer to do my job & trust my leadership to lead, I just haven't seen that yet. Still, I'm an optimist & have no problems giving out more chances if I see positive movement.
Logged
Major_Chuck
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 557

« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2006, 11:52:38 PM »

First let me say that I am a strong believer in the chain of command and just ranting for the most part. 

I will admit that I don't care much for Tony Pineda and his perceived seizing of power.  I feel he was the wrong choice for National Commander and since we have no true voice in that selection process we are pretty much stuck with who the National Board places into the position.

I do feel though that the membership as a whole need to express their feelings to their respective NB Representatives (Wing Commanders) about any issues and concerns they have.  Good and bad.  I have made it well known to my Wing Commander that I don't care at all for what has been going on. 

Logged
Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard
Major_Chuck
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 557

« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2006, 11:55:36 PM »

If you guys have a serious problem withthe National Commander, why not just ask him? I mean this is CAP, a volunteer organization. He is not a real two star. He cant take your pay or give you extra duty if you confrnt him. Just ask him what the heck is going on.

I have concerns too. I just read the recent firing of a region commander. Its getting rediculous. I have beenin CAP since 1984 and I have NEVER seen anything like this before. You can beliebve I will be finding Pineda's email address and emailing him. Its not hard. He's an FDLE agent which means he's a public servant. Go to the FDLE website and look him up.

Don't need to look it up.  I've got his AOL email address.   For the record I have asked him about issues in the past and never received an answer.  Not even a courtesy acknowledgement that he received the email.
Logged
Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2006, 11:57:50 PM »

Whjat chan of command? WHat she gonna do give you an article 15 or write you a counseling statement and put it in your record?
Logged
DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2006, 12:15:24 AM »

Whjat chan of command? WHat she gonna do give you an article 15 or write you a counseling statement and put it in your record?
Well now in my case you're talking about two separate chains of command, one that pays me & one that doesn't. The one that doesn't can just pull me from my local staff position & activities I enjoy, maybe hold up my paperwork now and then. The other is a different thing. An email from a senior CAP officer there can make my life much less fun - not an article 15 or even counseling, but not in the best graces of people that control my career & that's not an idea I treasure.

I do respect the chain of command though. I have my problems & frustrations w/ upper leadership, ideas for what I'd like to be done about it, and ideas for where I'd like us to be in the future, and there are things I can do about it within limits. I think that probably describes all of us though. Not to mention everyone in the military where grumbling is an inalienable right.
Logged
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,985

« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2006, 12:36:23 AM »

Is there much point in registering complaints with wing or region commanders?

Nearly all of them, at this point, have been personally selected by the National CC and/or National CS.

It's intriguing how national commanders & national vice coommanders, in recent year, have come and gone as if in a revolving door -- yet the same National Chief of Staff serves each successive administration.

If he ever goes on "Survivor", I'm betting on him!!!
Logged
Psicorp
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 606

« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2006, 10:46:14 AM »

I haven't thought this completely through, but the strike idea has crossed my mind also.  Although it runs counter to what I would usually believe, I'm not seeing a lot of options for rank and file members to make a statment that gets recognized at the upper levels of command. ... By initiating a coordinated "strike" on all non-emergency activities and missions, it might get someone's attention that folks are fed up without having to resort to complete resignation.


And just what would the possible consequences of a "strike" be, hmm?  You don't want to do the job you volunteered to do?  Fine, charters can be pulled and you could recieve a "your services are no longer required" letter.   Meanwhile, who really suffers?  The community in which you volunteered to serve?  The cadets and officers under your command?  The reputation of CAP as a whole? 

I honestly feel that if we don't become involved in politics and demand/expect the highest level of integrity of our leaders, then we end up being governed by our inferiors.   Ever notice that the people who are the best fit for a position are rarily the ones who jump at the chance to get it?
Logged
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257
Smokey
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 501

« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2006, 04:06:50 PM »

I too e-mailed General Pineda a while back.....no reply.  He probably hits "delete" on any e-mail that might be inquiring or critical.

The biggest issue is his lack of explanation of what & why the decisions were made. He offers no clue as to what is going on and we are left in the dark to muse, rant  & rave.   

We may not agree with all his decisions, but there would be less goaning and carping if we knew what the heck was going on.
Logged
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
To err is human, to blame someone else shows good management skills.
Pylon
Administrator

Posts: 5,165
Unit: NER-NH-038

Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2006, 05:38:54 PM »

We may not agree with all his decisions, but there would be less goaning and carping if we knew what the heck was going on.

Actually, I think National leadership realizes this and is probably the motivation behind setting up the newest addition to the CAP plethora of domains:  http://www.nationalcommander.com

Meant to keep you informed of leadership decisions and reasoning behind them.  :)
Logged
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
Psicorp
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 606

« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2006, 05:51:56 PM »

We may not agree with all his decisions, but there would be less goaning and carping if we knew what the heck was going on.

Actually, I think National leadership realizes this and is probably the motivation behind setting up the newest addition to the CAP plethora of domains:  http://www.nationalcommander.com

Meant to keep you informed of leadership decisions and reasoning behind them.  :)

That's what I'm hoping for...but if that were the case, you'd think he would have started out by passing along some information to begin to quell the rumors (I can't imagine he hasn't heard any).

I'm willing to take a "wait and see" approach and hope that someone's passing along to certain individuals the message to "check six".

Logged
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2006, 06:16:48 PM »

[ [/quote]
Well now in my case you're talking about two separate chains of command, one that pays me & one that doesn't. The one that doesn't can just pull me from my local staff position & activities I enjoy, maybe hold up my paperwork now and then. The other is a different thing. An email from a senior CAP officer there can make my life much less fun - not an article 15 or even counseling, but not in the best graces of people that control my career & that's not an idea I treasure.

.[/quote]


Pull you from your local staff position? I guess my situation is differant. We are beggin for people to volunteer. They arent about to can anyone who is willing. And to your second pint. Again, I guess its differant with mme. My military commanders have never heard of CAP and if some civilian addresses a letter to them about me and signs it as a two star, they would laugh their heads off and throw it away.
Logged
ELTHunter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 346
Unit: SER-TN-170

« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2006, 06:48:29 PM »


And just what would the possible consequences of a "strike" be, hmm?  You don't want to do the job you volunteered to do?  Fine, charters can be pulled and you could receive a "your services are no longer required" letter.   Meanwhile, who really suffers?  The community in which you volunteered to serve?  The cadets and officers under your command?  The reputation of CAP as a whole? 

I honestly feel that if we don't become involved in politics and demand/expect the highest level of integrity of our leaders, then we end up being governed by our inferiors.   Ever notice that the people who are the best fit for a position are rarely the ones who jump at the chance to get it?


First of all, I'm not suggesting a strike for a prolonged period of time, just long enough or selective enough to get some attention.

As I said, it would be for all non-emergency missions.

There could still be local squadron meetings and unfunded training activities.
Logged
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer
Psicorp
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 606

« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2006, 10:22:03 PM »


And just what would the possible consequences of a "strike" be, hmm?  You don't want to do the job you volunteered to do?  Fine, charters can be pulled and you could receive a "your services are no longer required" letter.   Meanwhile, who really suffers?  The community in which you volunteered to serve?  The cadets and officers under your command?  The reputation of CAP as a whole? 

I honestly feel that if we don't become involved in politics and demand/expect the highest level of integrity of our leaders, then we end up being governed by our inferiors.   Ever notice that the people who are the best fit for a position are rarely the ones who jump at the chance to get it?


First of all, I'm not suggesting a strike for a prolonged period of time, just long enough or selective enough to get some attention.

As I said, it would be for all non-emergency missions.

There could still be local squadron meetings and unfunded training activities.

Still sounds like a "wrong execution of the right idea".    To get leadership's attention, you'd want to get more involved...not step back and cross your arm across your chest and glare.   
Logged
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257
ELTHunter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 346
Unit: SER-TN-170

« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2006, 11:18:50 PM »

Forget I brought it up in the first place.  If I get any more involved, I'll be divorced and unemployed.  Unless by more involved you mean more involved in Wing/Region/National politics, which I have absolotely no desire to do.  I prefer the operations side to the political side of the organization.
Logged
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer
Al Sayre
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,515
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2006, 11:28:15 PM »

Unfortunately, if you believe politics is the problem, the best way to fix it is from the inside out.  By not getting "involved" in the upper echelons, you do yourself and others a disservice.  If you become a trusted and respected member of the Wing Staff, the Wing Commander is a lot more likely listen to you than some random faceless squadron staffer who chews on his ear once a year at the Wing Christmas party.
 
Face it folks, if you want to fix a problem, you need to get close enough to turn the wrench.
Logged
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2006, 11:35:08 PM »

I sympathize, as I think we all do. I can see that "getting more involved" seems like rewarding & enabling the behavior we're seeing at the top & the system that bred it & still does breed little version of it from Gp staff to Wg to Region. It's a fact that you get ahead & get a voice in CAP by personal politics. On the surface that's just unjust, but systemically it builds on top of itself & causes the quality of leadership to go down at an equally exponential pace. Afterall, what person of true merit long endures such idiocy. The military uses & abuses its people, and they stay there willingly, to an extent out of patriotism, but really more because of the quality of people they serve with the culture the attitude. Do you really want to share the company, culture, or attitude of CAP leadership so much that you'd endure the position for the opportunity to work with them? Most good people run like hell from that. They you get the Nat CC asking why good people won't step up to lead beyond their own backyard.

I tell guys, I feel your pain & all, but this is at the heart of what CAP is right now, it suck all hell & I don't know what to do about it short of a hostile takeover by Congress or AF to restore accountable leadership worthy of our people in the field. I certinaly think you need to do what you can to make CAP better, and in the process gain the ear of people that will listen to reason, but otherwise I'm all ears on how to fix the big picture. I really think it transcends the current leadership & won't be solved even if you get a great commander in there.
Logged
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,985

« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2006, 12:17:08 AM »

. I really think it transcends the current leadership & won't be solved even if you get a great commander in there.

I beg to disagree -- change at the top, change the attitudes, change the culture, start the repair process....things will improve
Logged
DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2006, 02:53:05 AM »

. I really think it transcends the current leadership & won't be solved even if you get a great commander in there.

I beg to disagree -- change at the top, change the attitudes, change the culture, start the repair process....things will improve
My position is the underlying system produced this leadership & allowed things to progress as they are now (with one person basically replacing everyone with his people - that influence will be felt long after he leaves). A great commander in that spot would still be hamstrung by the weak foundation under them & could provide no assurance for a secure future. A great commander could make things a little better for a period, but they can't actually change the culture/attitudes/etc single handedly & by force of will alone. The underlying system keeps good people out & causes poor people to rise to the top, and doesn't hold people accountable, which in turn effects everything down change & that pushes off members by the thousands. I actually don't want a good leader next. That's a bandaid on a cut off leg. All it does is delay the chance to change they big picture for the better.
Logged
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,985

« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2006, 02:06:20 PM »

. I really think it transcends the current leadership & won't be solved even if you get a great commander in there.

I beg to disagree -- change at the top, change the attitudes, change the culture, start the repair process....things will improve
My position is the underlying system produced this leadership & allowed things to progress as they are now (with one person basically replacing everyone with his people - that influence will be felt long after he leaves). A great commander in that spot would still be hamstrung by the weak foundation under them & could provide no assurance for a secure future. A great commander could make things a little better for a period, but they can't actually change the culture/attitudes/etc single handedly & by force of will alone. The underlying system keeps good people out & causes poor people to rise to the top, and doesn't hold people accountable, which in turn effects everything down change & that pushes off members by the thousands. I actually don't want a good leader next. That's a bandaid on a cut off leg. All it does is delay the chance to change they big picture for the better.

I totally agree that we need a sweeping cultural change in CAP.

One way to do that, which I've mentioned elsewhere on this board, would be to separate the functions of wing commander and corporate policy maker.

While it's true that wing CCs need to be corporate officers, one can be a corporate officer without sitting on the corporate board.

Commanders should be carrying out the CAP program in their wings.
Logged
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,649

« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2006, 02:44:13 PM »

Unfortunately, if you believe politics is the problem, the best way to fix it is from the inside out.  By not getting "involved" in the upper echelons, you do yourself and others a disservice.  If you become a trusted and respected member of the Wing Staff, the Wing Commander is a lot more likely listen to you than some random faceless squadron staffer who chews on his ear once a year at the Wing Christmas party.
 
Face it folks, if you want to fix a problem, you need to get close enough to turn the wrench.

Bingo!
Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2006, 03:00:03 PM »

I totally agree that we need a sweeping cultural change in CAP.

One way to do that, which I've mentioned elsewhere on this board, would be to separate the functions of wing commander and corporate policy maker.

While it's true that wing CCs need to be corporate officers, one can be a corporate officer without sitting on the corporate board.

Commanders should be carrying out the CAP program in their wings.
You know I'm really uncomfortable with elected leadership, and this isn't my idea, but it seems like we have the President & senate part of the governing body, but we need an elected group to represent membership on a per capita basis like the house. Again, not my idea & I don't know if it'd be a good idea at all, but it's worth consideration.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [All] Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: CAP politics
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.478 seconds with 25 queries.