February 21, 2020, 02:32:23 pm

The proper wear of CAP ribbons

Started by AlphaSigOU, September 30, 2007, 04:37:30 pm

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

DrKem

Folks,  thanks for the quick posting!  1.  I read the regs to say that you can wear the UC forever IF your unit earned it when you were a member.  I have no idea why the old squadron had new cadets wear the ribbon.  I was not part of the rescue and recovery effort.  Maybe the regulations changed from what was allowed in the 1960's.  2.  NHQ kindly posted my encampments and they are on eservices now.  I'll wear my encampment ribbons! 3.  Yep, I'm listed and the regional competition dates and location are listed.  A local newspaper in Kansas City did it right all those years ago!  I'll submit to NHQ and see what they do. 4.  I have awards that span 4.5 years and I was active for close to 6 but can't prove it.  The two year ribbon should be a no-brainer though.  Like I said though, I'm all about integrity. 

Thank you so much for your input!
Happy Holidays!
Dr. Kem Fronabarger, Major CAP
SC Wing Director of Professional Development
Certificate of Proficiency, 13 Jul 1964
Amelia Earhart Award #1105, 11 Mar 1966

The Infamous Meerkat

Quote from: lordmonar on December 24, 2013, 07:45:26 pm
Kevin,

You were told wrong.

In the USAF and CAP you only wear unit citations from units you were a member of when that unit was awarded the citation.

This is an ARMY thing that has snuck into CAP and despite clear regulations on it....we just can't seem to kill it.


Thanks for the clarification gents, I was pretty sure it was wrong too, hence the added sentence in that line.  ;D

DrKem, Glad to hear national was able to help you out! They are usually very accommodating, though they didn't allow me to keep my old CAP ID when I reapplied to be a Senior Member (they also had my name wrong on my old record, which complicated matters). That was my only bad experience, and it wasn't really that bad...
Captain Kevin Brizzi, CAP
SGT, USMC
Former C/TSgt, CAP
Former C/MAJ, Army JROTC

HaroldBuchanan

December 18, 2016, 08:21:34 am #362 Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 08:32:50 am by HaroldBuchanan
So reading the guide linked in the first page,

it indicates:
Quote• When wearing military ribbons on the Air Force-style or CAP blue corporate uniform, Air Force ribbons take precedence over ribbons from other services.


however the 39-3 indicates
Quote
CAPR 39-3 ATTACHMENT 2 (CONT’D) 28 DECEMBER 2012 31
SENIOR RIBBONS
US Military Decorations and Ribbons (Worn in order of precedence)


This would seem to indicate that if you have multi service ribbons, that you would intermix them according to official order of precedence, not wear Air For ribbons taking precedence.  Not sure why that note was included in the guide when it is not indicated in the 39-3
Major Harold Buchanan
OR-042
DCC
Retired US Army

DakRadz

I believe this is the answer- you have to look at CAPM 39-1, which states

Quote11.2.1.1.  US  Awards.  Federal  awards  awarded by  competent  authority  may  be  worn on USAF-style  uniforms  in accordance  with  instructions  contained in  AFI  36-2903.  National  Guard  awards will  not  be  worn.


And further, AFI 36-2903, which states

Quote11.3.2.    Air Force  awards  take  precedence  over equal awards  from other Services.


Directly below that, in 11.4, the AFI lists every ribbon in order of precedence and the USAF ribbons are always first.

To my knowledge, there is not a true order of precedence- I thought each service had their own. I could be mistaken.

1st Lt Raduenz

kwe1009

Quote from: DakRadz on December 18, 2016, 12:41:21 pm
I believe this is the answer- you have to look at CAPM 39-1, which states

Quote11.2.1.1.  US  Awards.  Federal  awards  awarded by  competent  authority  may  be  worn on USAF-style  uniforms  in accordance  with  instructions  contained in  AFI  36-2903.  National  Guard  awards will  not  be  worn.


And further, AFI 36-2903, which states

Quote11.3.2.    Air Force  awards  take  precedence  over equal awards  from other Services.


Directly below that, in 11.4, the AFI lists every ribbon in order of precedence and the USAF ribbons are always first.

To my knowledge, there is not a true order of precedence- I thought each service had their own. I could be mistaken.

1st Lt Raduenz


You are correct that there is no single order of precedence for military awards.  It is because each military branch has an order of precedence. 

To not over complicate, when wearing USAF-style uniforms your ribbons follow AFI 36-2903 and then add CAP ribbons underneath.

Luis R. Ramos

When CAP pubs do not instruct members to look in the military regs before asking for help, members do. Now CAP pubs direct members to look at military regs, members will not?

C'est la vie!


>:D


Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

GaryVC

December 18, 2016, 04:56:27 pm #366 Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 09:36:02 pm by GaryVC
When I joined the Air Force in 1970, members wore all the unit citations of the unit they were in regardless of when they were received. However, a few years after that it was changed to what it is now for both the Air Force and CAP. You only wear unit citation ribbons if you were in the unit when they were awarded.

Eclipse

Quote from: HaroldBuchanan on December 18, 2016, 08:21:34 am
So reading the guide linked in the first page,

it indicates:
Quote• When wearing military ribbons on the Air Force-style or CAP blue corporate uniform, Air Force ribbons take precedence over ribbons from other services.


Note the date of that guide.  While most of the info is still correct, the above references a uniform combination that no longer exists.



HaroldBuchanan

December 18, 2016, 07:31:00 pm #368 Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 07:41:47 pm by HaroldBuchanan
Quote from: DakRadz on December 18, 2016, 12:41:21 pm
I believe this is the answer- you have to look at CAPM 39-1, which states

Quote11.2.1.1.  US  Awards.  Federal  awards  awarded by  competent  authority  may  be  worn on USAF-style  uniforms  in accordance  with  instructions  contained in  AFI  36-2903.  National  Guard  awards will  not  be  worn.


And further, AFI 36-2903, which states

Quote11.3.2.    Air Force  awards  take  precedence  over equal awards  from other Services.


Directly below that, in 11.4, the AFI lists every ribbon in order of precedence and the USAF ribbons are always first.

To my knowledge, there is not a true order of precedence- I thought each service had their own. I could be mistaken.

1st Lt Raduenz


I like the portions you cite, but I think it actually supports what I had to say. Specifically the citation indicates that Air Force award take precedence over equal awards. I am talking about co mingled precedence.  Each ribbon has its own ranking. By example if a person was to theoretically have a good conduct ribbon from both the Air Force and the army, then the regulation clearly indicates they would wear their Air Force GC above their army GC. However if a person had an army commendation ribbon and an Air Force achievement ribbon, and others of varying degrees of presidance, it seems clear that 11.3.2 would have us put them in a joint service order of presidance. Now as it turns out, this doesn't actually apply to me as I only have army and cap ribbons, but it something in the guide I noticed that appears incorrect.


After posting this, I opened up AFI 36-2903 and turned out the list there in fact does have commingling of joint ribbons, indicating that in fact the guide should be updated to reflect you wear "ribbons according to the joint order of presidance as published in AFI 36-2903." Or something like that, as well as deleting the reference to the obsolete uniform combination pointed out by the other member
Major Harold Buchanan
OR-042
DCC
Retired US Army

DakRadz

I see where you are coming from.

The official order of precedence is the Air Force order.

Air Force ribbons go above the equivalent ribbon from other services, but it is mixed by award importance or ranking, not sorted by branch.

If you look at 11.4 in the AFI, that's correct.

39-3 is in that one spot poorly worded (just a tiny bit) but still very technically correct.

And I see I waited too long, as you did in fact find it. All's well what ends well.


1st Lt Raduenz

RogueLeader

I should also note the Ultrathins has an excellent ribbon rack builder (you don't have to buy them.  Select the Civil Air Patrol Order of precedence, and add all or some of the  ribbons authorized, and it shows, and lists, the ribbons in the proscribed order.
<redacted>

GRW 3340

SarDragon

Quote from: RogueLeader on December 19, 2016, 09:33:45 pm
I should also note the Ultrathins has an excellent ribbon rack builder (you don't have to buy them.  Select the Civil Air Patrol Order of precedence, and add all or some of the  ribbons authorized, and it shows, and lists, the ribbons in the proscribed  prescribed order.


FTFY. They mean exactly the opposite.

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Jim Lahaie

I really wish that my unit would bring back the allowance of  0.8 inch spaced racks for our ribbons. Looks so much better than the unspaced ribbons... :'(
Jim Lahaie
Cadet Senior Master Sergeant, CAP
Recruiting & Retention NCO
Cadet First Sergeant
"Because this is CAP Talk and that's what people like to do here."

NIN

Quote from: Jim Lahaie on December 17, 2018, 04:25:47 pm
I really wish that my unit would bring back the allowance of  0.8 inch spaced racks for our ribbons. Looks so much better than the unspaced ribbons... :'(


What unit would that be?

Civil Air Patrol has worn the "unspaced" racks for at least 40 years, and I'm pretty sure before that, going back to the 50s or maybe even the 40s (historians, chime in here).

If your CAP unit was wearing the spaced ribbon racks, they were doing it wrong.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

SarDragon

I have a copy of every version of CAPM 39-1, and there are zero occurrences of spaced ribbons. That's all the way back to 1961.

Sent using Tapatalk

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Jim Lahaie on December 17, 2018, 04:25:47 pm
I really wish that my unit would bring back the allowance of  0.8 inch spaced racks for our ribbons. Looks so much better than the unspaced ribbons... :'(


I really wish people wouldn't start nonsense on a thread two years old.

This should be locked before it gets worse.

Stonewall

Quote from: Jim Lahaie on December 17, 2018, 04:25:47 pm
I really wish that my unit would bring back the allowance of  0.8 inch spaced racks for our ribbons. Looks so much better than the unspaced ribbons... :'(


Yeah, I think you're thinking AR 670-1, not CAPM 39-1 (any version in history).

SarDragon

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 17, 2018, 09:31:01 pm
Quote from: Jim Lahaie on December 17, 2018, 04:25:47 pm
I really wish that my unit would bring back the allowance of  0.8 inch spaced racks for our ribbons. Looks so much better than the unspaced ribbons... :'(


I really wish people wouldn't start nonsense on a thread two years old.

This should be locked before it gets worse.
Yes, good idea.

Sent using Tapatalk

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret