January 24, 2021, 07:49:33 pm

Covid-19 remobilization updates

Started by NovemberWhiskey, November 12, 2020, 12:22:55 pm

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Holding Pattern

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 07, 2020, 04:55:31 pm
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on December 07, 2020, 12:54:41 pmThe question is whether CAP brings anything other than ample volunteer spirit and the ability to lift boxes.

Does CAP run these PODs, or are they run by another agency? Does CAP organize the logistics associated with the PODs, or is this organized by another agency?

We got into this discussion with our unit one time: "How do we get involved in community service projects such as this?"

The response returned was that we need to be active/qualified Ground Team members and be assigned to the mission.

Who gave you that response?

I'll admit I've been given similar runarounds before but I had the benefit of having that done years before the pandemic.

Then I realized that I didn't need blessings from on high, I just needed a local agency to request us and move the ball forward from there.

Get your local squadron to crank out the GES, IS100/200/700/800/PODC, then assign a Homeland Security Officer.

Liaison with your local LEPC/VOAD/COAD, and when the next call for volunteers happens, ask them to send an official request to the CAP NOC.

Have your HLS babysit the request with your chain of command and BOOM! You have a mission.

I used this strategy to start getting missions in what I believed to be the most risk averse wing in the nation (as it turns out I was wrong. There are 10 wings more averse to assigning missions than us.) and then came to the realization that it was never about waiting for someone upstairs or for the call to eventually come in.

It's the job of the squadron to interface locally to become known enough to get missions.

They'll start off simple, like answering phones or making calls. They'll increase in complexity to POD work and shelter work as you prove you are responsible. And from there you just need to maintain the relationship to get the calls.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 09, 2020, 12:31:03 am
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 07, 2020, 04:55:31 pm
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on December 07, 2020, 12:54:41 pmThe question is whether CAP brings anything other than ample volunteer spirit and the ability to lift boxes.

Does CAP run these PODs, or are they run by another agency? Does CAP organize the logistics associated with the PODs, or is this organized by another agency?

We got into this discussion with our unit one time: "How do we get involved in community service projects such as this?"

The response returned was that we need to be active/qualified Ground Team members and be assigned to the mission.

Who gave you that response?

I'll admit I've been given similar runarounds before but I had the benefit of having that done years before the pandemic.

Then I realized that I didn't need blessings from on high, I just needed a local agency to request us and move the ball forward from there.

Get your local squadron to crank out the GES, IS100/200/700/800/PODC, then assign a Homeland Security Officer.

Liaison with your local LEPC/VOAD/COAD, and when the next call for volunteers happens, ask them to send an official request to the CAP NOC.

Have your HLS babysit the request with your chain of command and BOOM! You have a mission.

I used this strategy to start getting missions in what I believed to be the most risk averse wing in the nation (as it turns out I was wrong. There are 10 wings more averse to assigning missions than us.) and then came to the realization that it was never about waiting for someone upstairs or for the call to eventually come in.

It's the job of the squadron to interface locally to become known enough to get missions.

They'll start off simple, like answering phones or making calls. They'll increase in complexity to POD work and shelter work as you prove you are responsible. And from there you just need to maintain the relationship to get the calls.


I'm not sure if any of that was sarcasm or an actual suggestion.

Referring back to my previous posts:
We shouldn't need to be under a mission number and require ES qualifications to assist the local community in delivering food/supplies. That's ridiculous.

The squadron could literally contact the local food bank and offer its services without needing to "activate" or "wait for a call." But the moment it becomes an assigned mission, you have to have all of these extra boxes checked that serve as nothing beyond red tape and a barrier.

We can arrange for 50 people to go lay 1,000 wreaths at a cemetery with no paperwork beyond a risk assessment and permission slips. Why is handing out 1,000 boxes of hand sanitizer any different?

Holding Pattern

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 07:24:24 pmThe squadron could literally contact the local food bank and offer its services without needing to "activate" or "wait for a call." But the moment it becomes an assigned mission, you have to have all of these extra boxes checked that serve as nothing beyond red tape and a barrier.

We can arrange for 50 people to go lay 1,000 wreaths at a cemetery with no paperwork beyond a risk assessment and permission slips. Why is handing out 1,000 boxes of hand sanitizer any different?

The squadron could literally not have meetings and just sit around at the airfield once a week. Why is setting up a squadron and doing meetings according to regulation and sending paperwork to Wing something we do? Why do we do all the extra work just to have weekly CAP meetings?

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 07:24:24 pmI'm not sure if any of that was sarcasm or an actual suggestion.


I literally have a CAP achievement award for getting my squadron back into the ES game for following literally everything I said in the post.

Eclipse

December 09, 2020, 07:38:41 pm #43 Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 07:42:45 pm by Eclipse
Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 09, 2020, 07:32:54 pmhe squadron could literally not have meetings and just sit around at the airfield once a week. Why is setting up a squadron and doing meetings according to regulation and sending paperwork to Wing something we do? Why do we do all the extra work just to have weekly CAP meetings?

If that was all you did - call centers and POD, you didn't "get them back in the ES game".

Here's an experiment - new recruiting push, remove all mention of UAVs, SAR, field work, and aircrews,
and just show and discuss working at a call center drive and handing out meals...

It's one thing to try to do "something"...anything to help in a crisis because your proper missions
aren't needed and you're feeling impotent with nothing to do...as long as its acknowledged that the tasks
are outside normal lanes, but pretending this type of thing is a sustainable mission for the
organizaiton as a primary task shows a lack of understanding of the organization's place in the
Great Framework, not to mention >why< people join CAP in the first place.



Eclipse

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 07:24:24 pmWe can arrange for 50 people to go lay 1,000 wreaths at a cemetery with no paperwork beyond a risk assessment and permission slips. Why is handing out 1,000 boxes of hand sanitizer any different?

Because you don't get DR-Vs and battle streamers without making it a mission.



Holding Pattern

Quote from: Eclipse on December 09, 2020, 07:38:41 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 09, 2020, 07:32:54 pmhe squadron could literally not have meetings and just sit around at the airfield once a week. Why is setting up a squadron and doing meetings according to regulation and sending paperwork to Wing something we do? Why do we do all the extra work just to have weekly CAP meetings?

If that was all you did - call centers and POD, you didn't "get them back in the ES game".

My letter of thanks from the Unified Command disagrees with your assessment.

My monthly meetings with our jurisdictional leadership disagrees with your assessment.

My chain of command (amazingly) disagrees with your assessment.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Eclipse on December 09, 2020, 07:39:33 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 07:24:24 pmWe can arrange for 50 people to go lay 1,000 wreaths at a cemetery with no paperwork beyond a risk assessment and permission slips. Why is handing out 1,000 boxes of hand sanitizer any different?

Because you don't get DR-Vs and battle streamers without making it a mission.

I'm sold.

Seriously, though, we promote Volunteer Service as a Core Value, and we literally have cadets do trivia on listing off the Core Values periodically throughout CAP. And then Volunteer Service turns into training to get dibs on missions and hope for the call.

We have talked for years about conducting service projects. This is a service project; not a mission. Wreaths Across America, Flag retirements, Color Guards/Honor Guards, helping pack meals...these are all things to get involved in our local community to impact the people who live right next door and teach our youth a sense of community pride and selflessness.

I just don't get the idea that we need to be ES junkies, Ground Team trained, and badged to be on a calling list versus contacting a local food bank and saying "Do you need volunteers?"

My full respect for the SAR/CD guys, but this isn't sexy pararescue/JTAC stuff here. It's driving down the road on a Saturday to go offer some extra labor.

Eclipse

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 08:47:37 pmWe have talked for years about conducting service projects. This is a service project; not a mission. Wreaths Across America, Flag retirements, Color Guards/Honor Guards, helping pack meals...these are all things to get involved in our local community to impact the people who live right next door and teach our youth a sense of community pride and selflessness.

100% correct, and I have seen all of those mentioned and plenty other similarly "not missions"
run with mission numbers and varying degrees of ICS staff because of "reasons" that range from
"We're using radios, so have to have a mission #", to "I need a sortie for re-qual" to the ever
popular "for the insurance" (which isn't a thing, BTW).

Characterizing these activities as what they really are would likely garner more support and more
participation.



Holding Pattern

December 09, 2020, 10:26:51 pm #48 Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 11:15:05 pm by Holding Pattern
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 08:47:37 pmThis is a service project; not a mission.

What is the quantifiable difference in your mind?

What are the key things that make a mission a mission?

EDIT TO ADD: Why did our state secure a mission number from their State EOC?

PHall

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 07:24:24 pmThe squadron could literally contact the local food bank and offer its services without needing to "activate" or "wait for a call." But the moment it becomes an assigned mission, you have to have all of these extra boxes checked that serve as nothing beyond red tape and a barrier.

If you just want to be a "community volunteer" then why are you paying all that money to be a member of CAP?
There are much cheaper ways to serve your community and they don't have all the red tape of being a quasi government agency too.

Eclipse

December 09, 2020, 11:19:01 pm #50 Last Edit: December 10, 2020, 12:08:53 am by Eclipse
Quote from: PHall on December 09, 2020, 11:08:43 pmIf you just want to be a "community volunteer" then why are you paying all that money to be a member of CAP?
There are much cheaper ways to serve your community and they don't have all the red tape of being a quasi government agency too.

This is the point being made.

CAP has a unique set of resources, skills (in theory), and mission mandates which require its unique (theoretical) scale, access, training, etc.

If the missions Community Service Activities are going to be reduced to things Joe Citizen can simply do by raising his hand at church, or walking down the street, there's no need for CAP.

And the reality is that technology, circumstance, and the inertia of a large organizaiton
have allowed CAP's core missions to stagnate, in favor of "shiny" and "whatever fills the feed".

Before Covid pulled back the curtin, the big news was UAVs, which had already left CAP in the dust
a couple of years ago.  I mean, Jordan's golf club has drone waiters! Hardly an area an organizaiton like CAP
is going to lead the edge.


The organization lost a golden opportunity to get its house in order during the stand down ("we can't all just stop to do 'x" no longer being an excuse), and now is simply looking to get back to 2019 "ops normal" with some of the lowest membership numbers in 20 years and another year (plus next year) wasted.

There won't be anything approaching "normal" until FY22, and there's no way to know how many venues and
activities will never come back.

Meanwhile NHQ pats itself on the back for a great year.



Holding Pattern

Quote from: Eclipse on December 09, 2020, 11:19:01 pm
Quote from: PHall on December 09, 2020, 11:08:43 pmIf you just want to be a "community volunteer" then why are you paying all that money to be a member of CAP?
There are much cheaper ways to serve your community and they don't have all the red tape of being a quasi government agency too.

This is the point being made.

CAP has a unique set of resources, skills (in theory), and mission mandates which require its unique (theoretical) scale, access, training, etc.

If the missions Community Service Activities are going to be reduced to things Joe Citizen can simply do by raising his hand at church, or walking down the street, there's no need for CAP.


SAR can be done by Joe citizen raising their hands and being organized in search lines.

We should stop doing SAR work and just do that as Community Service Activities.

Supporting classrooms in AE can be done outside of CAP.

We should just stop doing external AE with local schools.

---

This is still a crap argument and you know it.

Eclipse

Literally the opposite of what we are saying. (and also strawman)

People need to step out of themselves and stop being defensive about
their "thing" and see the bigger picture.

And that's the core of this, with both those in this thread, and those
watching it who choose to not engage.

Things were done, maybe for some with great effort. I know for a fact for
some with great cool factor.

That doesn't make these things not done, and it doesn't mean they didn't have value...

...but it also doesn't automatically make then appropriate for CAP in the way they are being accomplished,
nor does the USC "mandate" these activities.

Is it a valid argument?  Yes.  However it's not a "mandate" by any means.



Luis R. Ramos

QuoteCAPR 39-3 21. g. Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" Device. The Disaster Relief Ribbon with a silver "V" device may be awarded to any CAP member who participates in a disaster relief effort for a Presidential declared disaster. Participation must be verified by the on-scene commander. Participation in any Presidential declared disaster since 1990 qualifies. The Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" device may be earned even if the member has not met the requirement of paragraph 21(f), above. A maximum of one "V" device will be worn. Individuals participating in more than one Presidentially declared disaster may add a bronze clasp to the ribbon with "V" device beginning on the left side of the device.

Where in the para quoted does it say that for this ribbon, there has to be a mission? It never has. The only one that says it has to be a mission is in 21. f. And yet in the piece quoted above it says it may be earned even if the requirement of para 21(f) has not been met.

I asked this in another thread recently, and no one gave a reasonable answer. It all amounted to "because I say so."
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Eclipse

This conversation aside, under what circumstance would you be authorized to
participate in a disaster area in a CAP uniform that wasn't under a mission.

You can't earn this as a private citizen, which is what you are without CAP approval.

You can't be there (for CAP) without a mission.

Put the time in for a Community Service Ribbon.




baronet68

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 01:25:32 am
Quote from: undefinedCAPR 39-3 21. g. Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" Device. The Disaster Relief Ribbon with a silver "V" device may be awarded to any CAP member who participates in a disaster relief effort for a Presidential declared disaster. Participation must be verified by the on-scene commander. Participation in any Presidential declared disaster since 1990 qualifies. The Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" device may be earned even if the member has not met the requirement of paragraph 21(f), above. A maximum of one "V" device will be worn. Individuals participating in more than one Presidentially declared disaster may add a bronze clasp to the ribbon with "V" device beginning on the left side of the device.


Where in the para quoted does it say that for this ribbon, there has to be a mission? It never has. The only one that says it has to be a mission is in 21. f. And yet in the piece quoted above it says it may be earned even if the requirement of para 21(f) has not been met.

I asked this in another thread recently, and no one gave a reasonable answer. It all amounted to "because I say so."

It also doesn't specify that the relief effort must be accomplished on behalf of CAP.
Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

Luis R. Ramos

QuoteYou can't earn this as a private citizen, which is what you are without CAP approval.

Where does it say that? Now who is the one with the straw argument?
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Eclipse

Quote from: baronet68 on December 10, 2020, 02:08:31 amIt also doesn't specify that the relief effort must be accomplished on behalf of CAP.

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 02:18:01 am
QuoteYou can't earn this as a private citizen, which is what you are without CAP approval.

Where does it say that? Now who is the one with the straw argument?

I believe it's on the first page of level 1 under "common sense".

Unless you're going to assert that members can just show up ad hoc, with zero
authorization from anyone in CAP, do "a thing", and then bring a note scribbled on
a napkin from someone there saying they "did a thing" and put in for a dec.



etodd

Its GOT to be an official mission ... so they can get their ribbon/medal/certificate/etc.

Yep .... it ALWAYS comes back to uniforms and bling.

Those will have to go ... if CAP is to ever start heading in a different direction with its services.

"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Luis R. Ramos

Quote from: undefineda. Silver Medal of Valor. Distinguished and conspicuous heroic action, at the risk of life, above and beyond the call of normal duty.
b. Bronze Medal of Valor.
h. Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving. Awarded to members who save a human life, but do not meet the criteria for the Bronze or Silver Medal of Valor.

These have been given whether the individual is on a mission, or not on a mission.

A member going home after a meeting that sees fire or smoke coming out of a house, is "just showing up ad hoc, with zero authorization from anyone in CAP, [and] do[es] "a thing."' And he/she gets the Silver Medal, the Bronze Medal, or The Certificate of Recognition.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer