CAP Talk

General Discussion => The Lobby => Topic started by: NovemberWhiskey on November 12, 2020, 12:22:55 pm

Title: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: NovemberWhiskey on November 12, 2020, 12:22:55 pm
For those that may not have been paying particularly close attention: NHQ has recently been making much more frequent updates to the remobilization page (https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/covid-19-remobilization) on gocivilairpatrol.com.

It now shows multiple wings having reverted to phase 1 or phase 0 and includes updates up to 11/9.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: baronet68 on November 30, 2020, 10:08:15 pm
Anyone notice that the CovidActNow (https://www.covidactnow.org/) website has updated? 

With most of the country in-the-red, they added a 5th color (a new darker red) to show where things are growing even worse.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: JohhnyD on December 01, 2020, 02:25:45 am
In March I knew not one person who had the CCP virus. Now many, many people in my neighborhood, at work, among customers and people at Church and in my unit have had it, survived and are fine. It is approaching herd saturation. The mortality rate has dropped 85% since March. Time to open back up again.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Fubar on December 01, 2020, 04:09:22 am
Quote from: baronet68 on November 30, 2020, 10:08:15 pmWith most of the country in-the-red, they added a 5th color (a new darker red) to show where things are growing even worse.

We still have many squadrons throughout the country meeting in person in those red and super-red areas. It would seem CAP is no longer worried about such things, the pandemic has reached the same peak that started this pandemic when NHQ put out the full stop. This time, not so much.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 01, 2020, 04:38:41 am
Quote from: Fubar on December 01, 2020, 04:09:22 am
Quote from: baronet68 on November 30, 2020, 10:08:15 pmWith most of the country in-the-red, they added a 5th color (a new darker red) to show where things are growing even worse.

We still have many squadrons throughout the country meeting in person in those red and super-red areas. It would seem CAP is no longer worried about such things, the pandemic has reached the same peak that started this pandemic when NHQ put out the full stop. This time, not so much.

I think in many areas it's worse, but thanks to the holidays and pandemic fatigue, not to mention a
bunch of unrelated political and conspiracy issues, people are just ignoring it, or barely complying.

CAP needs to be back to a 100% all stop, virtual-only country-wide, and we don't need to be involved
in these outreach missions that look good on the streams but amount to little but unnecessary risk
for the members and the organization.

Anyone who wants to help hand out food, etc., can do it without the uniform or hassle of authorization,
and in fact can do it better and easier.

But that doesn't get the clicks or a battle streamer.

How on earth CAP could have flown more sorties for Covid then Deep Water Horizon is beyond me.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: JohhnyD on December 01, 2020, 07:23:36 am
Wow, science has died. Fear rules America. Amazing.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Fubar on December 01, 2020, 08:30:42 am
Quote from: Eclipse on December 01, 2020, 04:38:41 amHow on earth CAP could have flown more sorties for Covid then Deep Water Horizon is beyond me.

Well, there certainly is a difference in the essential nature of say, moving COVID samples from A to B compared to having an in-person meeting because cadets are bored of Zoom. Just like public safety and the medical profession are doing the best they can at risk mitigation, certain tasks just have to be accomplished and we are extraordinarily fortunate that there are people willing to serve in these roles. Of course those professions are taking a beating at the hands of this virus, both in terms of death (which is measured) and long-term damage to pulmonary, cardiac, and cognitive systems (which is not measured). If CAP volunteers are willing to assume that risk to perform an "essential" service, then I do have less heart burn about it (provided all precautions are actually followed and not just when someone whips a camera out).

Admittedly the task does matter and reasonable people can disagree on what tasks are actually essential and which aren't. The flying missions have all stopped anyway thanks to the FAA waiver snafu.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: NovemberWhiskey on December 01, 2020, 01:23:52 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on December 01, 2020, 07:23:36 amWow, science has died. Fear rules America. Amazing.

As you're obviously not a scientist, let me give you a few clues. Anecdote is not data. Herd immunity for SARS-CoV-2 is a dangerous fallacy unsupported by scientific evidence. Your attitudes are hazardous; knock it off.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 01:44:55 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on December 01, 2020, 04:38:41 amAnyone who wants to help hand out food, etc., can do it without the uniform or hassle of authorization,
and in fact can do it better and easier.


How does the simple act of putting on a CAP uniform and following safety protocols and RM make CAP worse and harder?

If it is safe for other non-profits to do this, it is safe for us to do this.

If our advice is to tell CAP members to help, just not as CAP members, then you are holding our ES mission to be a lie.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 02:02:33 pm
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on December 01, 2020, 01:23:52 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on December 01, 2020, 07:23:36 amWow, science has died. Fear rules America. Amazing.

As you're obviously not a scientist, let me give you a few clues. Anecdote is not data. Herd immunity for SARS-CoV-2 is a dangerous fallacy unsupported by scientific evidence. Your attitudes are hazardous; knock it off.


https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailytrendsdeaths

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailytrendscases

You don't have to be a scientist to be able to look at these two graphs and see that based on the data, this virus isn't nearly as threatening to look at as it was back in March.

The most dangerous thing to do in this pandemic is to go to the grocery store at this point.

The second most dangerous thing is to stay at home and be sedentary.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 01, 2020, 02:12:53 pm
Food banks and shelters are not part of CAP's mission, the PPE delivery is just...odd...,
but at least the small number of aircrew sample deliveries fits somewhat within the mandate,
assuming there was no other, better means. It's simply not what CAP "does", and if they were to become
the primary "ES" mission (especially the first two), the current drop in member numbers would look  like a recruiting push.

A CAP member who wishes to work at a food bank has to sign up through CAP,
an IC has to be assigned, they need to be in uniform, and there are any
number of other rules, regs, and policies to follow - no adult member present? No CAP cadets.

Any CAP member who wishes to work at that same food bank may do so absent the
organization, any time, and for any duration.  They can even get Community Service Hours!

See how that works?

As to ES being a "lie", you said that, I didn't.

CAP does what it does, and has struggled for 20 years because instead of focusing on its core strengths
and mission mandates, it's constantly trying to "get in the game" by ignoring its own regulations and
running towards the shiny (usually several years after the shiny showed up).
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 01, 2020, 02:16:36 pm
Unconfirmed gouge, but my understanding is that NHQ has become far more lenient on reverting to previous phases, and just because a state goes red no longer means rolling back anymore. It's now incumbent upon the states/wings to make that decision in consensus with NHQ and Region., but it's no longer an automatic reversion.

As far as the community support missions and food distribution, I have seen this on several accounts, and all of those near me were out of compliance with Remobilization precautions/protocols anyway.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Pace on December 01, 2020, 02:21:32 pm
I'm one of the insiders that sees the admissions, clinical course, morbidity, and mortality on the ground, and I can tell you this is unlike any pathogen the US has dealt with in my short life-time. My hospital in rural Texas has never seen the dealth toll we are seeing with COVID. I have no interest in debating these issues anymore because frankly it's a waste of my time that I do not have.

Formal warning. The majority of the scientific community worldwide and in the US cannot stress the risk with this virus enough. Take the conspiracy theories and politics elsewhere.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Capt Thompson on December 01, 2020, 02:28:45 pm
Quote from: Pace on December 01, 2020, 02:21:32 pmMy hospital in rural Texas has never seen the dealth toll we are seeing with COVID. I have no interest in debating these issues anymore because frankly it's a waste of my time that I do not have.
This^^^

My wife's hospital just brought in another refrigerator trailer, as the morgue is once again over capacity. The look on her face and the pure exhaustion I see every night when she gets home tells me all I need to know.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 02:57:06 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on December 01, 2020, 02:12:53 pmFood banks and shelters are not part of CAP's mission, the PPE delivery is just...odd...,
but at least the small number of aircrew sample deliveries fits somewhat within the mandate,
assuming there was no other, better means. It's simply not what CAP "does", and if they were to become
the primary "ES" mission (especially the first two), the current drop in member numbers would look  like a recruiting push.

Those all fell under the ES umbrella. You can't argue that supporting a presidentially declared disaster isn't an ES mission.

The fact that it is different than our ES mission 20 or 50 years ago doesn't change the fact that Mass Care is in the National Response Plan for a reason as a core capability TODAY.
QuoteA CAP member who wishes to work at a food bank has to sign up through CAP,
an IC has to be assigned, they need to be in uniform, and there are any
number of other rules, regs, and policies to follow - no adult member present? No CAP cadets.

Any CAP member who wishes to work at that same food bank may do so absent the
organization, any time, and for any duration.  They can even get Community Service Hours!

See how that works?

So why is that a problem?
QuoteAs to ES being a "lie", you said that, I didn't.
Your statements allude to it.

QuoteCAP does what it does, and has struggled for 20 years because instead of focusing on its core strengths
and mission mandates, it's constantly trying to "get in the game" by ignoring its own regulations and
running towards the shiny (usually several years after the shiny showed up).

CAP has done more this year than it has ever before in the ES field and it has not ignored its own regulations to do so.

If you believe the regs are being violated you can let CAP/IG know.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 03:20:58 pm
Quote from: Pace on December 01, 2020, 02:21:32 pmI'm one of the insiders that sees the admissions, clinical course, morbidity, and mortality on the ground, and I can tell you this is unlike any pathogen the US has dealt with in my short life-time. My hospital in rural Texas has never seen the dealth toll we are seeing with COVID. I have no interest in debating these issues anymore because frankly it's a waste of my time that I do not have.

Formal warning. The majority of the scientific community worldwide and in the US cannot stress the risk with this virus enough. Take the conspiracy theories and politics elsewhere.

If you are delivering a formal warning, in the interests of clarity can you call out the specific posts that are a problem? Just want to know if linking to the CDC data is considered a "conspiracy theory."
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 01, 2020, 03:32:08 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 02:57:06 pmThose all fell under the ES umbrella. You can't argue that supporting a presidentially declared disaster isn't an ES mission.

I can and do.  It's not CAP's lane, it's "get in the game itis". CAP brings nothing to the table in this regard except for a contact list and makes it harder for members to provide support.  There is no need for organizational involvement.

Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 02:57:06 pmCAP has done more this year than it has ever before in the ES field...
Keep telling yourself that - it looks great in the social streams and the Volunteer.


Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 02:57:06 pmIf you believe the regs are being violated you can let CAP/IG know.

Thanks for that tip - you know very well what I am referring to. No one said
that in this specific case there were regulatory issues (though common sense and
adherence to Covid policies seems to be somewhat "optional" for some people).

One need only look to any of the myriad DR incidents with slick-sleeve members
working in legit disaster areas to see plenty of places CAP ignores its
not insubstantial training, safety, and ORM protocols and regs just to "get in the game".
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: jeders on December 01, 2020, 03:38:30 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 03:20:58 pmIf you are delivering a formal warning, in the interests of clarity can you call out the specific posts that are a problem? Just want to know if linking to the CDC data is considered a "conspiracy theory."

Your post was not the most offending post, that honor belongs to JohnnyD; however, posting data without any appropriate analysis is dangerous. But to bring it back to reality, the data you posted shows that the Covid-19 pandemic is still going strong and is every bit as dangerous as it was in March, and in some areas much, much, much worse. For instance, it wasn't until summer that, prisons aside, we had more than about 100 total cases locally, we now have over 1,000 ACTIVE cases.

Is posting CDC data politics or conspiracy theory, no. Is posting CDC data and then claiming that the data says the opposite of what it actually says, yes.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 03:55:24 pm
Quote from: jeders on December 01, 2020, 03:38:30 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 03:20:58 pmIf you are delivering a formal warning, in the interests of clarity can you call out the specific posts that are a problem? Just want to know if linking to the CDC data is considered a "conspiracy theory."

Your post was not the most offending post, that honor belongs to JohnnyD; however, posting data without any appropriate analysis is dangerous. But to bring it back to reality, the data you posted shows that the Covid-19 pandemic is still going strong and is every bit as dangerous as it was in March, and in some areas much, much, much worse. For instance, it wasn't until summer that, prisons aside, we had more than about 100 total cases locally, we now have over 1,000 ACTIVE cases.

That isn't what the data says at all. If we have several times the number of positive cases from March and similar absolute death numbers from March, the death RATE is clearly lower today than it was in March...
QuoteIs posting CDC data politics or conspiracy theory, no. Is posting CDC data and then claiming that the data says the opposite of what it actually says, yes.

Well, you just did that. You also led with your "insider information" which is a fancier way of saying your anecdotal situation "on the ground" which is not representative of the country as a whole.

Yes, TX is far harder hit than say, WA or ID. Extrapolating from your situation to every other state's situation is the opposite of science. Which is why CAP has guidelines per state instead of one national on/off switch.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 01, 2020, 04:16:28 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 03:55:24 pmYes, TX is far harder hit than say, WA or ID. Extrapolating from your situation to every other state's situation is the opposite of science. Which is why CAP has guidelines per state instead of one national on/off switch.

Literally the opposite of what the data actually says.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 04:23:49 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on December 01, 2020, 04:16:28 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 03:55:24 pmYes, TX is far harder hit than say, WA or ID. Extrapolating from your situation to every other state's situation is the opposite of science. Which is why CAP has guidelines per state instead of one national on/off switch.

Literally the opposite of what the data actually says.

TX case fatality rate as of Nov 21 when I last crunched numbers: Total cases 1,072,698; deaths per 100k 70.7, 7 day average deaths per 100k .5

WA case fatality rate as of Nov 21: Total cases 139,543; deaths per 100k 34.8, 7 day average deaths per 100k .2

If you're going to say that what I'm saying is the opposite of what I'm saying you can have the courtesy to pull your own data and demonstrate how that is the case.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 01, 2020, 04:34:56 pm
Click the link provide it and read it.

Idaho is #19, TX is 36th, WA is just behind TX at 38th with essentially the same numbers.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 04:39:49 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on December 01, 2020, 03:32:08 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 02:57:06 pmIf you believe the regs are being violated you can let CAP/IG know.

Thanks for that tip - you know very well what I am referring to. No one said
that in this specific case there were regulatory issues (though common sense and
adherence to Covid policies seems to be somewhat "optional" for some people).


My mistake for taking you at your word when you said:

QuoteCAP does what it does, and has struggled for 20 years because instead of focusing on its core strengths
and mission mandates, it's constantly trying to "get in the game" by ignoring its own regulations and
running towards the shiny (usually several years after the shiny showed up).

And no, I don't know very well what you are referring to.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 04:41:21 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on December 01, 2020, 04:34:56 pmClick the link provide it and read it.

Idaho is #19, TX is 36th, WA is just behind TX at 38th with essentially the same numbers.

The data NOW, as in the situation on the ground NOW, not the overall numbers.

If you aren't using 7, 14, and 30 day rolling numbers and letting march numbers dictate your planning still, you are analyzing the risk incorrectly.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Fubar on December 01, 2020, 06:38:46 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 01, 2020, 04:41:21 pmIf you aren't using 7, 14, and 30 day rolling numbers and letting march numbers dictate your planning still, you are analyzing the risk incorrectly.

Agreed. Also if anyone is only using the death rate to determine how we should be reacting to this virus, they are missing several other important aspects such as ICU utilization, long term damage (heart/lungs/cognitive) that's occurring to patients, and the responsibility we have to not pass the virus onto others.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 01, 2020, 07:59:53 pm
Is this really within the scope of this forum, or are we straying away from CAP as a general talking point to make COVID-19 itself the talking points?

I motion that we resume civility and return to discussing CAP as our topic and not the general spread of communicable illness.

I think some valid points have been made throughout this thread so far, particularly that there are concerns over CAP's missions and involvement in ES-related/ES-marketed activities. It has also been brought up that there are concerns over NHQ's handling and/or oversight of the Remobilization plan(s) for each Wing. These are all things that are within our membership (and, for some of us, staff) abilities to influence. Let's return to discussing those and not how we want to impact our hospitals or economic infrastructure.

I'll be the guy to invoke mods here.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: jeders on December 01, 2020, 08:59:00 pm
Agreed.

If anyone has any further comments about Covid itself and the data, you can take them to PM or a medical/scientific forum. Let us keep the discussion limited to what CAP is doing and how to do it in the safest and most effective manner possible.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: CAP9907 on December 01, 2020, 10:46:12 pm
Quote from: jeders on December 01, 2020, 08:59:00 pmLet us keep the discussion limited to what CAP is doing and how to do it in the safest and most effective manner possible.

Yup, this.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: NovemberWhiskey on December 02, 2020, 03:03:06 am
I tend to agree that CAP is quite ill-prepared for some of the missions, like food distribution to the public, that I've seen during the pandemic. Overall, for ESF #6, CAP doesn't seem to provide much other than bodies and an unwieldy parallel command structure.

We don't have any kind of organized/formal point-of-distribution or shelter operations training curriculum, we don't have any training for responders who will be facing the public (e.g. DAFN, psychological first aid) and so on. The average CERT team is probably significantly more appropriately skilled for these kinds of tasking than CAP; never mind the American Red Cross.

If we genuinely have aspirations to be serious in this space, then what is happening right now is probably not the way to do it.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: baronet68 on December 02, 2020, 08:48:29 am
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on December 02, 2020, 03:03:06 amWe don't have any kind of organized/formal point-of-distribution or shelter operations training curriculum...

There is an ES qualification for PODC (IS-26 Point of Distribution Course) available on the 101 card.  While the training is very basic and largely video-based, the curriculum is provided by FEMA and seems very effective for providing a functional understanding of how PODs work.  Seems pretty "organized/formal" to me.  What else would be necessary?

Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 02, 2020, 06:49:46 pm
Quote from: baronet68 on December 02, 2020, 08:48:29 am
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on December 02, 2020, 03:03:06 amWe don't have any kind of organized/formal point-of-distribution or shelter operations training curriculum...

There is an ES qualification for PODC (IS-26 Point of Distribution Course) available on the 101 card.  While the training is very basic and largely video-based, the curriculum is provided by FEMA and seems very effective for providing a functional understanding of how PODs work.  Seems pretty "organized/formal" to me.  What else would be necessary?



Two sorties!

Though seriously, it should be trained to and practiced, just like every other qual.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 02, 2020, 06:54:17 pm
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on December 02, 2020, 03:03:06 amI tend to agree that CAP is quite ill-prepared for some of the missions, like food distribution to the public

The current system netted us nearly 1 million pounds of food distributed to the public.

I imagine a formalized training and advertisement of capability to local agencies would mean we could easily double that number for the next national crisis should this repeat itself.

In terms of mass care my locality got caught out when needing to stand up one shelter this year and CAP became the first responding volunteer agency for that.

Yeah, I picked up my jaw off the ground after that conversation too.

But it was made quite clear: The more CAP trains and advertises to local agencies, the more callouts we will get for POD work, Shelter work, and *dramatic gasp* SAR work!
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: jeders on December 02, 2020, 10:32:27 pm
Topic pruned of unhelpful arguing and associated posts. Asserting opinion as fact and then ignoring anyone who disagrees with you is not debating, it's being a little child. I know we can all act like adults (even if only for a minute).
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: SarDragon on December 07, 2020, 04:29:39 am
On 3 December, INWG announced on Facebook that they earned the National Commander's Unit Citation for their collective service in support of COVID-19 relief.

The COVID Response mission was a Herculean effort. Over a period of 54 days, more than 600 members supported food banks, food pantries, a food kitchen, a school district, and 2 mega pantries (at Indy Motor Speedway and Indiana State Fairgrounds) packing and/or delivering almost 1.5 Million meals to Hoosiers. At the end of the mission, the ARNG was so impressed with CAP, that they included them on the poker chip coin they created.

On a different note, California Wing has been engaged in assisting our communities continuously in this COVID-19 pandemic since March 14 - over five months! California Wing has participated with other organizations in the distribution of over 2 million meals and has distributed over 580,000 on our own. The Salvation Army needed help to package and distribute food in El Cajon, Guatay and Campo.  Cadets and seniors from CAWG responded and helped package meal kits over three operational periods in May, June, July, August and September.  During the first monthly operational period meal kits were prepared. These kits were distributed on the second operational period in the towns of Guatay and Campo and on the third in El Cajon.  Each meal kit contains enough food for 3-6 meals. The CAWG response was tremendous: 63 members contributed 186 member-days across 14 operational periods and five months.

This mission is here. It's real, and it's happening.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: NovemberWhiskey on December 07, 2020, 12:54:41 pm
Quote from: baronet68 on December 02, 2020, 08:48:29 amThere is an ES qualification for PODC (IS-26 Point of Distribution Course) available on the 101 card.  While the training is very basic and largely video-based, the curriculum is provided by FEMA and seems very effective for providing a functional understanding of how PODs work.  Seems pretty "organized/formal" to me.  What else would be necessary?

It's a FEMA independent study course, with no practical assessment component, which results in a qualification that never expires. On the contrary, to me, that seems about as close to a fig-leaf as you can get. Compare the most basic, low-risk mission-base staff training requirements; e.g. Mission Staff Assistant. Also, I have never even seen this mission be part of a training exercise - although there may well be some other units that do train.

I am not disputing 'CAP volunteers turn out in droves to move and hand out food packages'. The question is whether CAP brings anything other than ample volunteer spirit and the ability to lift boxes.

Does CAP run these PODs, or are they run by another agency? Does CAP organize the logistics associated with the PODs, or is this organized by another agency?
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 07, 2020, 04:55:31 pm
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on December 07, 2020, 12:54:41 pmThe question is whether CAP brings anything other than ample volunteer spirit and the ability to lift boxes.

Does CAP run these PODs, or are they run by another agency? Does CAP organize the logistics associated with the PODs, or is this organized by another agency?

We got into this discussion with our unit one time: "How do we get involved in community service projects such as this?"

The response returned was that we need to be active/qualified Ground Team members and be assigned to the mission.

Meanwhile, we could literally, in a non-CAP capacity, email the project office and volunteer our personal time and ability without any qualifications. We just need to register and be on time.

Interesting how that works based on the accountability it falls under.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 07, 2020, 05:03:15 pm
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on December 07, 2020, 12:54:41 pmThe question is whether CAP brings anything other than ample volunteer spirit and the ability to lift boxes.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 07, 2020, 04:55:31 pmMeanwhile, we could literally, in a non-CAP capacity, email the project office and volunteer our personal time and ability without any qualifications. We just need to register and be on time.

Where have I heard someone say something like this before?
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: NovemberWhiskey on December 07, 2020, 06:12:12 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 07, 2020, 04:55:31 pmWe got into this discussion with our unit one time: "How do we get involved in community service projects such as this?"

The response returned was that we need to be active/qualified Ground Team members and be assigned to the mission.

Well, that would certainly be one reading of CAPR 60-3: all deployment of CAP personnel away from a mission base is a 'sortie' and sorties are either 'air sorties' or 'ground sorties'. Ground sorties have to include minimum staffing levels of GTM/UDF/CERT qualified or trainees with appropriate GTL for GTM and supervisors for trainees; the sorties should be briefed, recorded on CAPF 109, logged etc. etc.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 07, 2020, 08:01:46 pm
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on December 07, 2020, 06:12:12 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 07, 2020, 04:55:31 pmWe got into this discussion with our unit one time: "How do we get involved in community service projects such as this?"

The response returned was that we need to be active/qualified Ground Team members and be assigned to the mission.

Well, that would certainly be one reading of CAPR 60-3: all deployment of CAP personnel away from a mission base is a 'sortie' and sorties are either 'air sorties' or 'ground sorties'. Ground sorties have to include minimum staffing levels of GTM/UDF/CERT qualified or trainees with appropriate GTL for GTM and supervisors for trainees; the sorties should be briefed, recorded on CAPF 109, logged etc. etc.

But, we could literally, as a squadron, volunteer as an activity.

I know of missions where it's a local request, not an Air force, DHS, or State EMA mission. But it gets routed through channels that turns it into a CAP sortie. Once it's a sortie, it needs to have CAP/ES quals.

As a squadron, we could coordinate with the same requesting agency and volunteer to assist, just like helping the local VFW, Wreaths Across America, or other volunteer group performing a service function in the community. We collect and retire Flags as a squadron. It's literally no different.

Delivering 30 boxes of meals and MREs at the local food clinic or school shouldn't be a "mission" or a qualification-required activity. It shouldn't take GES, first aid training, map reading, rope-tying, and related classes to hand out boxes of toilet paper. And I often hear the response: "This is a great opportunity to get qualified." I think it's a ridiculous reason to get qualified. I'll go do it outside of CAP if I have to, and I'll encourage others to do the same and count that toward their Community Service Ribbon.

Cut the bureaucratic red tape for things that are not lifesaving/SAR/counter-drug.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 07, 2020, 09:16:49 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 07, 2020, 08:01:46 pmDelivering 30 boxes of meals and MREs at the local food clinic or school shouldn't be a "mission" or a qualification-required activity. It shouldn't take GES, first aid training, map reading, rope-tying, and related classes to hand out boxes of toilet paper. And I often hear the response: "This is a great opportunity to get qualified." I think it's a ridiculous reason to get qualified. I'll go do it outside of CAP if I have to, and I'll encourage others to do the same and count that toward their Community Service Ribbon.

((*SHACK*))
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 09, 2020, 12:31:03 am
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 07, 2020, 04:55:31 pm
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on December 07, 2020, 12:54:41 pmThe question is whether CAP brings anything other than ample volunteer spirit and the ability to lift boxes.

Does CAP run these PODs, or are they run by another agency? Does CAP organize the logistics associated with the PODs, or is this organized by another agency?

We got into this discussion with our unit one time: "How do we get involved in community service projects such as this?"

The response returned was that we need to be active/qualified Ground Team members and be assigned to the mission.

Who gave you that response?

I'll admit I've been given similar runarounds before but I had the benefit of having that done years before the pandemic.

Then I realized that I didn't need blessings from on high, I just needed a local agency to request us and move the ball forward from there.

Get your local squadron to crank out the GES, IS100/200/700/800/PODC, then assign a Homeland Security Officer.

Liaison with your local LEPC/VOAD/COAD, and when the next call for volunteers happens, ask them to send an official request to the CAP NOC.

Have your HLS babysit the request with your chain of command and BOOM! You have a mission.

I used this strategy to start getting missions in what I believed to be the most risk averse wing in the nation (as it turns out I was wrong. There are 10 wings more averse to assigning missions than us.) and then came to the realization that it was never about waiting for someone upstairs or for the call to eventually come in.

It's the job of the squadron to interface locally to become known enough to get missions.

They'll start off simple, like answering phones or making calls. They'll increase in complexity to POD work and shelter work as you prove you are responsible. And from there you just need to maintain the relationship to get the calls.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 07:24:24 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 09, 2020, 12:31:03 am
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 07, 2020, 04:55:31 pm
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on December 07, 2020, 12:54:41 pmThe question is whether CAP brings anything other than ample volunteer spirit and the ability to lift boxes.

Does CAP run these PODs, or are they run by another agency? Does CAP organize the logistics associated with the PODs, or is this organized by another agency?

We got into this discussion with our unit one time: "How do we get involved in community service projects such as this?"

The response returned was that we need to be active/qualified Ground Team members and be assigned to the mission.

Who gave you that response?

I'll admit I've been given similar runarounds before but I had the benefit of having that done years before the pandemic.

Then I realized that I didn't need blessings from on high, I just needed a local agency to request us and move the ball forward from there.

Get your local squadron to crank out the GES, IS100/200/700/800/PODC, then assign a Homeland Security Officer.

Liaison with your local LEPC/VOAD/COAD, and when the next call for volunteers happens, ask them to send an official request to the CAP NOC.

Have your HLS babysit the request with your chain of command and BOOM! You have a mission.

I used this strategy to start getting missions in what I believed to be the most risk averse wing in the nation (as it turns out I was wrong. There are 10 wings more averse to assigning missions than us.) and then came to the realization that it was never about waiting for someone upstairs or for the call to eventually come in.

It's the job of the squadron to interface locally to become known enough to get missions.

They'll start off simple, like answering phones or making calls. They'll increase in complexity to POD work and shelter work as you prove you are responsible. And from there you just need to maintain the relationship to get the calls.


I'm not sure if any of that was sarcasm or an actual suggestion.

Referring back to my previous posts:
We shouldn't need to be under a mission number and require ES qualifications to assist the local community in delivering food/supplies. That's ridiculous.

The squadron could literally contact the local food bank and offer its services without needing to "activate" or "wait for a call." But the moment it becomes an assigned mission, you have to have all of these extra boxes checked that serve as nothing beyond red tape and a barrier.

We can arrange for 50 people to go lay 1,000 wreaths at a cemetery with no paperwork beyond a risk assessment and permission slips. Why is handing out 1,000 boxes of hand sanitizer any different?
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 09, 2020, 07:32:54 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 07:24:24 pmThe squadron could literally contact the local food bank and offer its services without needing to "activate" or "wait for a call." But the moment it becomes an assigned mission, you have to have all of these extra boxes checked that serve as nothing beyond red tape and a barrier.

We can arrange for 50 people to go lay 1,000 wreaths at a cemetery with no paperwork beyond a risk assessment and permission slips. Why is handing out 1,000 boxes of hand sanitizer any different?

The squadron could literally not have meetings and just sit around at the airfield once a week. Why is setting up a squadron and doing meetings according to regulation and sending paperwork to Wing something we do? Why do we do all the extra work just to have weekly CAP meetings?

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 07:24:24 pmI'm not sure if any of that was sarcasm or an actual suggestion.


I literally have a CAP achievement award for getting my squadron back into the ES game for following literally everything I said in the post.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 09, 2020, 07:38:41 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 09, 2020, 07:32:54 pmhe squadron could literally not have meetings and just sit around at the airfield once a week. Why is setting up a squadron and doing meetings according to regulation and sending paperwork to Wing something we do? Why do we do all the extra work just to have weekly CAP meetings?

If that was all you did - call centers and POD, you didn't "get them back in the ES game".

Here's an experiment - new recruiting push, remove all mention of UAVs, SAR, field work, and aircrews,
and just show and discuss working at a call center drive and handing out meals...

It's one thing to try to do "something"...anything to help in a crisis because your proper missions
aren't needed and you're feeling impotent with nothing to do...as long as its acknowledged that the tasks
are outside normal lanes, but pretending this type of thing is a sustainable mission for the
organizaiton as a primary task shows a lack of understanding of the organization's place in the
Great Framework, not to mention >why< people join CAP in the first place.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 09, 2020, 07:39:33 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 07:24:24 pmWe can arrange for 50 people to go lay 1,000 wreaths at a cemetery with no paperwork beyond a risk assessment and permission slips. Why is handing out 1,000 boxes of hand sanitizer any different?

Because you don't get DR-Vs and battle streamers without making it a mission.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 09, 2020, 08:01:19 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on December 09, 2020, 07:38:41 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on December 09, 2020, 07:32:54 pmhe squadron could literally not have meetings and just sit around at the airfield once a week. Why is setting up a squadron and doing meetings according to regulation and sending paperwork to Wing something we do? Why do we do all the extra work just to have weekly CAP meetings?

If that was all you did - call centers and POD, you didn't "get them back in the ES game".

My letter of thanks from the Unified Command disagrees with your assessment.

My monthly meetings with our jurisdictional leadership disagrees with your assessment.

My chain of command (amazingly) disagrees with your assessment.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 08:47:37 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on December 09, 2020, 07:39:33 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 07:24:24 pmWe can arrange for 50 people to go lay 1,000 wreaths at a cemetery with no paperwork beyond a risk assessment and permission slips. Why is handing out 1,000 boxes of hand sanitizer any different?

Because you don't get DR-Vs and battle streamers without making it a mission.

I'm sold.

Seriously, though, we promote Volunteer Service as a Core Value, and we literally have cadets do trivia on listing off the Core Values periodically throughout CAP. And then Volunteer Service turns into training to get dibs on missions and hope for the call.

We have talked for years about conducting service projects. This is a service project; not a mission. Wreaths Across America, Flag retirements, Color Guards/Honor Guards, helping pack meals...these are all things to get involved in our local community to impact the people who live right next door and teach our youth a sense of community pride and selflessness.

I just don't get the idea that we need to be ES junkies, Ground Team trained, and badged to be on a calling list versus contacting a local food bank and saying "Do you need volunteers?"

My full respect for the SAR/CD guys, but this isn't sexy pararescue/JTAC stuff here. It's driving down the road on a Saturday to go offer some extra labor.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 09, 2020, 08:59:06 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 08:47:37 pmWe have talked for years about conducting service projects. This is a service project; not a mission. Wreaths Across America, Flag retirements, Color Guards/Honor Guards, helping pack meals...these are all things to get involved in our local community to impact the people who live right next door and teach our youth a sense of community pride and selflessness.

100% correct, and I have seen all of those mentioned and plenty other similarly "not missions"
run with mission numbers and varying degrees of ICS staff because of "reasons" that range from
"We're using radios, so have to have a mission #", to "I need a sortie for re-qual" to the ever
popular "for the insurance" (which isn't a thing, BTW).

Characterizing these activities as what they really are would likely garner more support and more
participation.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 09, 2020, 10:26:51 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 08:47:37 pmThis is a service project; not a mission.

What is the quantifiable difference in your mind?

What are the key things that make a mission a mission?

EDIT TO ADD: Why did our state secure a mission number from their State EOC?
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: PHall on December 09, 2020, 11:08:43 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 09, 2020, 07:24:24 pmThe squadron could literally contact the local food bank and offer its services without needing to "activate" or "wait for a call." But the moment it becomes an assigned mission, you have to have all of these extra boxes checked that serve as nothing beyond red tape and a barrier.

If you just want to be a "community volunteer" then why are you paying all that money to be a member of CAP?
There are much cheaper ways to serve your community and they don't have all the red tape of being a quasi government agency too.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 09, 2020, 11:19:01 pm
Quote from: PHall on December 09, 2020, 11:08:43 pmIf you just want to be a "community volunteer" then why are you paying all that money to be a member of CAP?
There are much cheaper ways to serve your community and they don't have all the red tape of being a quasi government agency too.

This is the point being made.

CAP has a unique set of resources, skills (in theory), and mission mandates which require its unique (theoretical) scale, access, training, etc.

If the missions Community Service Activities are going to be reduced to things Joe Citizen can simply do by raising his hand at church, or walking down the street, there's no need for CAP.

And the reality is that technology, circumstance, and the inertia of a large organizaiton
have allowed CAP's core missions to stagnate, in favor of "shiny" and "whatever fills the feed".

Before Covid pulled back the curtin, the big news was UAVs, which had already left CAP in the dust
a couple of years ago.  I mean, Jordan's golf club has drone waiters! Hardly an area an organizaiton like CAP
is going to lead the edge.


The organization lost a golden opportunity to get its house in order during the stand down ("we can't all just stop to do 'x" no longer being an excuse), and now is simply looking to get back to 2019 "ops normal" with some of the lowest membership numbers in 20 years and another year (plus next year) wasted.

There won't be anything approaching "normal" until FY22, and there's no way to know how many venues and
activities will never come back.

Meanwhile NHQ pats itself on the back for a great year.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 10, 2020, 12:11:02 am
Quote from: Eclipse on December 09, 2020, 11:19:01 pm
Quote from: PHall on December 09, 2020, 11:08:43 pmIf you just want to be a "community volunteer" then why are you paying all that money to be a member of CAP?
There are much cheaper ways to serve your community and they don't have all the red tape of being a quasi government agency too.

This is the point being made.

CAP has a unique set of resources, skills (in theory), and mission mandates which require its unique (theoretical) scale, access, training, etc.

If the missions Community Service Activities are going to be reduced to things Joe Citizen can simply do by raising his hand at church, or walking down the street, there's no need for CAP.


SAR can be done by Joe citizen raising their hands and being organized in search lines.

We should stop doing SAR work and just do that as Community Service Activities.

Supporting classrooms in AE can be done outside of CAP.

We should just stop doing external AE with local schools.

---

This is still a crap argument and you know it.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 10, 2020, 01:13:08 am
Literally the opposite of what we are saying. (and also strawman)

People need to step out of themselves and stop being defensive about
their "thing" and see the bigger picture.

And that's the core of this, with both those in this thread, and those
watching it who choose to not engage.

Things were done, maybe for some with great effort. I know for a fact for
some with great cool factor.

That doesn't make these things not done, and it doesn't mean they didn't have value...

...but it also doesn't automatically make then appropriate for CAP in the way they are being accomplished,
nor does the USC "mandate" these activities.

Is it a valid argument?  Yes.  However it's not a "mandate" by any means.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 01:25:32 am
QuoteCAPR 39-3 21. g. Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" Device. The Disaster Relief Ribbon with a silver "V" device may be awarded to any CAP member who participates in a disaster relief effort for a Presidential declared disaster. Participation must be verified by the on-scene commander. Participation in any Presidential declared disaster since 1990 qualifies. The Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" device may be earned even if the member has not met the requirement of paragraph 21(f), above. A maximum of one "V" device will be worn. Individuals participating in more than one Presidentially declared disaster may add a bronze clasp to the ribbon with "V" device beginning on the left side of the device.

Where in the para quoted does it say that for this ribbon, there has to be a mission? It never has. The only one that says it has to be a mission is in 21. f. And yet in the piece quoted above it says it may be earned even if the requirement of para 21(f) has not been met.

I asked this in another thread recently, and no one gave a reasonable answer. It all amounted to "because I say so."
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 10, 2020, 02:01:37 am
This conversation aside, under what circumstance would you be authorized to
participate in a disaster area in a CAP uniform that wasn't under a mission.

You can't earn this as a private citizen, which is what you are without CAP approval.

You can't be there (for CAP) without a mission.

Put the time in for a Community Service Ribbon.

Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: baronet68 on December 10, 2020, 02:08:31 am
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 01:25:32 am
Quote from: undefinedCAPR 39-3 21. g. Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" Device. The Disaster Relief Ribbon with a silver "V" device may be awarded to any CAP member who participates in a disaster relief effort for a Presidential declared disaster. Participation must be verified by the on-scene commander. Participation in any Presidential declared disaster since 1990 qualifies. The Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" device may be earned even if the member has not met the requirement of paragraph 21(f), above. A maximum of one "V" device will be worn. Individuals participating in more than one Presidentially declared disaster may add a bronze clasp to the ribbon with "V" device beginning on the left side of the device.


Where in the para quoted does it say that for this ribbon, there has to be a mission? It never has. The only one that says it has to be a mission is in 21. f. And yet in the piece quoted above it says it may be earned even if the requirement of para 21(f) has not been met.

I asked this in another thread recently, and no one gave a reasonable answer. It all amounted to "because I say so."

It also doesn't specify that the relief effort must be accomplished on behalf of CAP.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 02:18:01 am
QuoteYou can't earn this as a private citizen, which is what you are without CAP approval.

Where does it say that? Now who is the one with the straw argument?
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 10, 2020, 02:19:10 am
Quote from: baronet68 on December 10, 2020, 02:08:31 amIt also doesn't specify that the relief effort must be accomplished on behalf of CAP.

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 02:18:01 am
QuoteYou can't earn this as a private citizen, which is what you are without CAP approval.

Where does it say that? Now who is the one with the straw argument?

I believe it's on the first page of level 1 under "common sense".

Unless you're going to assert that members can just show up ad hoc, with zero
authorization from anyone in CAP, do "a thing", and then bring a note scribbled on
a napkin from someone there saying they "did a thing" and put in for a dec.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: etodd on December 10, 2020, 02:31:35 am
Its GOT to be an official mission ... so they can get their ribbon/medal/certificate/etc.

Yep .... it ALWAYS comes back to uniforms and bling.

Those will have to go ... if CAP is to ever start heading in a different direction with its services.

Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 02:35:02 am
Quote from: undefineda. Silver Medal of Valor. Distinguished and conspicuous heroic action, at the risk of life, above and beyond the call of normal duty.
b. Bronze Medal of Valor.
h. Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving. Awarded to members who save a human life, but do not meet the criteria for the Bronze or Silver Medal of Valor.

These have been given whether the individual is on a mission, or not on a mission.

A member going home after a meeting that sees fire or smoke coming out of a house, is "just showing up ad hoc, with zero authorization from anyone in CAP, [and] do[es] "a thing."' And he/she gets the Silver Medal, the Bronze Medal, or The Certificate of Recognition.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 02:44:34 am
QuoteIts GOT to be an official mission ... so they can get their ribbon/medal/certificate/etc.

Then ADD that WORDING to CAPR 39-3 Sect 21. F. g. Until then, requiring an official mission for a Disaster Relief Ribbon with V Device is NOT supported by regulations. It may be the regulation intent, and it may be common sense, but unless it is specified as in the section below, is NOT supported.

QuoteCAPR 39-3 Sect f. 21. f. Disaster Relief Ribbon. Awarded for participation in five actual/evaluated disaster relief missions...

Lawyers regularly lose arguments in court because they cite laws missing words. And then they go to higher courts where their argument is found to not have merit.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 10, 2020, 03:00:27 am
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 02:35:02 amhese have been given whether the individual is on a mission, or not on a mission.

A member going home after a meeting that sees fire or smoke coming out of a house, is "just showing up ad hoc, with zero authorization from anyone in CAP, [and] do[es] "a thing."' And he/she gets the Silver Medal, the Bronze Medal, or The Certificate of Recognition.

Those decorations are not intended for operational situations, and the approval process for those is decidedly
not just a letter from a guy.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 10, 2020, 03:01:17 am
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 02:44:34 am
QuoteIts GOT to be an official mission ... so they can get their ribbon/medal/certificate/etc.

Then ADD that WORDING to CAPR 39-3 Sect 21. F. g. Until then, requiring an official mission for a Disaster Relief Ribbon with V Device is NOT supported by regulations. It may be the regulation intent, and it may be common sense, but unless it is specified as in the section below, is NOT supported.

Then put yourself in for one.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 03:05:11 am
I do not need another. The two I have have been awarded under mission numbers. But again, why are you engaging in a strawman argument? Bringing sarcasm to the messenger?
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 10, 2020, 03:42:07 am
It's not a strawman to directly address and answer the question.

If you don't want the dec, what is the point here?

The majority of experienced members are going to tell you it's common sense that
you have to be assigned to a mission to get a CAP mission-based decoration, and that
is what you're going to mostly get here.

Every CC in the approval chain has to decide the above. I would and have declined
a number of these personally, (they came out of the woodwork after Katrina and Sandy) as
have plenty of other CCs in and around both my chain, AOR, and outside of it.

If you believe you have a case, submit the request through your channels and see what they say,
maybe you'll set a precedent in your wing.

Heck, call NHQ.  If you get the right person you can get approval for just about anything
regardless of the regulatory verbiage or precedent.


The direct answer is:
No, the verbiage doesn't explicitly state is has to be a mission, the consensus I
have garnered in my experience is a mission is required, but since this is a subjective approval,
it could certainly be approved if the CC's in your chain are benevolent to the idea.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 04:02:41 am
I will give you there will always be some trying to get one which obviously do not deserve it. As you stated, "a note on a napkin" does not merit one. But when there is a letter from the organization director, and photos of members working?

What you have cited is that commanders do not follow regulations and routinely use the argument of "it is convenient for me to add to the regulation." Which is something you regularly warn against us doing so in this forum. "Stick to regulations!" you say. But now when I present the argument that something is not supported by regulations you change your tune.

Over the years I have seen the argument presented of "needs a mission number" and have processed a lot of them as Personnel Officer. And approved or rejected my share as squadron commander and Personnel Officer. But recently it came to me as a revelation that "the regulation governing it is deficient."

And if someone from NHQ does give approval, it is because they recognize the regulation is... deficient.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 10, 2020, 04:34:37 am
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 04:02:41 amAs you stated, "a note on a napkin" does not merit one. But when there is a letter from the organization director, and photos of members working?

Now we have "members" working? By who's authority?

What you're literally suggesting is that despite the fact that, for whatever reason,
there is no CAP-approved mission or activity, members can simply self-deploy on their
own whim to do whatever they want and then expect to get decorated by CAP for it?

And the "on scene" commander is basically "anyone"? Not a CAP IC or similar delegate?

Does this include flight operations?

Do you get sortie credit towards requal and advanced ratings as well?

What's the difference right?
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: PHall on December 10, 2020, 05:00:37 am
Quote from: etodd on December 10, 2020, 02:31:35 amIts GOT to be an official mission ... so they can get their ribbon/medal/certificate/etc.

Yep .... it ALWAYS comes back to uniforms and bling.

Those will have to go ... if CAP is to ever start heading in a different direction with its services.




You have to be on a mission if you want the insurance coverage.
You get hurt when you're out there with no mission number you're going to be your own dime.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 05:20:53 am
Aha, that IS another argument given. It is, a convenience. IF the mission is an Air Force mission number you do get coverage. But do we have that assurance it is always the case? When the mission number is that for a corporate funded mission by the Wing? You do not get always insurance coverage in these cases.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 10, 2020, 01:29:10 pm
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 05:20:53 amAha, that IS another argument given. It is, a convenience. IF the mission is an Air Force mission number you do get coverage. But do we have that assurance it is always the case? When the mission number is that for a corporate funded mission by the Wing? You do not get always insurance coverage in these cases.

This is incorrect, but also needs to include context.

Members are always covered by CAP for liability they may incur due to their participation
in approved activities.  This is via CAP's General Liability Insurance.

It's also why it's important to follow all the rules, as there will most definitely be a
lawyer(s) somewhere whose job it is to try and deny a claim.

See CAPR 900-5, Page 4

This includes normal unit activities, larger scale things like encampments, and C-Level missions
(regardless of funding source). This is external insurance, meaning it covers things or people
you break, but not you.

The organizaiton also provides $10,000 in accidental death, and up to $8000 in excess medical coverage
to all members as part of a self-insurance program covered by the general fund.

See CAPR 900-5, Page 8.

A, & B missions, of course, include the potential for FECA (injury compensation) and FTCA (lawsuit protection) support and coverage. 

My comment earlier about "this is not a thing" meant that you don't need a mission for the CAP
general liability to cover you, only to be participating in an approved activity.

It should also be noted that IANAL, don't usually like to watch them on TV, and history has
shown that if you find yourself needing any of the protections asserted by CAP, it'll be an expensive, protracted mess, regardless.


Summarization here: https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAP_Insurance_and_Benefits_Program__94261CEDF60E4.pdf
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 10, 2020, 08:36:30 pm
I think we also need to distinctly separate the many grey area overlaps that is CAP's missions.

Cadet Programs and Emergency Services are interfaced, but they are not aligned.

The vision of the Cadet Program is to develop community leaders (particularly with an aerospace emphasis)...to shape kids into becoming responsible adults who serve their community, state, and nation...in an aerospace capacity preferably, but not necessarily a must when they leave the program. This is frequently accomplished through local-level service projects, teambuilding activities, and related educational subject matter. This is precisely why cadets are the primary focus on Character Development and not senior members.

If the community presents opportunities for cadets to engage with their local peers and affiliates, that's an absolute bonus for any locale.

Emergency Services is also an added bonus for any cadet to further get involved in "something beyond themselves." There's no dispute there.

The difference is the culture of it all. If it's an Emergency Services mission, and assigned by HHQ, it has requisite qualifications for participation, and that mission may not actually have any functional or principle difference in its objectives or execution plan. If it's not an Emergency Services mission, it's a "volunteer opportunity," and often looked at very differently by the member corps. Even in this very thread, it has been brought up that we shouldn't be conducting food distribution activities because they're not the basis for "Emergency Services" and yet the same thread says if you want to conduct non-ES-assigned missions, then go start your own organization or do it on your own outside of CAP.

This is literally a "can't have it both ways" thing.

COVID-19 unveiled that there are a lot of local organizations that have been operating for quite some time and are now under extreme pressure to perform their community service mission. CAP has started to tap into those opportunities to: 1. assist and 2. gain public exposure.

But I back up to my initial comment on this thread. I saw units conducting local community service. I asked HHQ how to get involved. I was told we needed to be on the "call list" for Ground Team activation. I said that this seemed to be a very niche group being solicited to assist. The response I received was that "This is an opportunity to get your members involved in ES. Get them trained."

I go right back to "Why? Why get formally trained to hand out groceries?" That's the only difference between what other units were doing and what we were volunteering to do: qualified to hand out groceries.

If this is the culture CAP is putting forth (and I'm guessing is more local and Wing-level leadership than Nationally...guessing...), than that's an issue in the sense of telling people, particularly the Cadet Program, that Community Service is a closed niche of highly trained operators; which is factually untrue and logically ridiculous.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: UWONGO2 on December 10, 2020, 08:38:59 pm
Other organizations are begging for bodies and don't particularly seem to care about previous experience or any kind of certifications. The state leadership of the Red Cross reached out to my wing looking for help. We said sure, what do you need? Their NHQ was begging the states for bodies to send to various mobilizations they had for COVID, fires, and hurricanes. They wanted us to put out the word that anyone interested in deploying that the Red Cross would pay for all travel expenses and waive the usual background check since CAP already did one. All training would be provided on site. They just need butts in airplane seats headed out to various disasters ASAP.

Wing leadership starting asking questions about command and control, lability, and even uniforms. The answer back was, whoa, we just want the people, we don't need CAP itself.

Last I heard the issue was "kicked upstairs" to region, I haven't heard anything about it in a long while.

If people want to volunteer in capacities that CAP doesn't claim to be a core competency, it's just easier to do so without dragging CAP into it.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: arajca on December 10, 2020, 08:59:22 pm
In my wing, the only requirement was GES. A CAP driver's license was required if you were driving a CAP vehicle. For the flying missions, I believe only a TMP was required, but I wasn't involved in that part so I'm not positive.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 10, 2020, 09:23:45 pm
Quote from: arajca on December 10, 2020, 08:59:22 pmIn my wing, the only requirement was GES.

Thus the heartburn.

GES is >NOT< a "rating".  It's a ticket to begin learning, and in and of it self
it doesn't even allow a member to even be signed into a mission.

So how does that work, exactly?
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 10, 2020, 09:34:16 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on December 10, 2020, 09:23:45 pm
Quote from: arajca on December 10, 2020, 08:59:22 pmIn my wing, the only requirement was GES.

Thus the heartburn.

GES is >NOT< a "rating".  It's a ticket to begin learning, and in and of it self
it doesn't even allow a member to even be signed into a mission.

So how does that work, exactly?

QCUA... right?

Heaven forbid that you don't get to go full #TotalForce when you volunteer your time without a bunch paperwork and pre-operating training hours/days/weekends.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: arajca on December 10, 2020, 10:10:48 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on December 10, 2020, 09:23:45 pm
Quote from: arajca on December 10, 2020, 08:59:22 pmIn my wing, the only requirement was GES.

Thus the heartburn.

GES is >NOT< a "rating".  It's a ticket to begin learning, and in and of it self
it doesn't even allow a member to even be signed into a mission.

So how does that work, exactly?
So, what rating covers delivering supplies or assembling orders?
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 11, 2020, 12:04:25 am
Quote from: arajca on December 10, 2020, 10:10:48 pmSo, what rating covers delivering supplies or assembling orders?

Nothing in a CAP "ES" parlance.

Probably the ARC or SA has a rating, since that's one of their missions.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: etodd on December 11, 2020, 01:16:30 am
Quote from: UWONGO2 on December 10, 2020, 08:38:59 pmOther organizations are begging for bodies and don't particularly seem to care about previous experience or any kind of certifications. The state leadership of the Red Cross reached out to my wing looking for help. We said sure, what do you need? Their NHQ was begging the states for bodies to send to various mobilizations they had for COVID, fires, and hurricanes. They wanted us to put out the word that anyone interested in deploying that the Red Cross would pay for all travel expenses and waive the usual background check since CAP already did one. All training would be provided on site. They just need butts in airplane seats headed out to various disasters ASAP.

Wing leadership starting asking questions about command and control, lability, and even uniforms. The answer back was, whoa, we just want the people, we don't need CAP itself.

Last I heard the issue was "kicked upstairs" to region, I haven't heard anything about it in a long while.

If people want to volunteer in capacities that CAP doesn't claim to be a core competency, it's just easier to do so without dragging CAP into it.

^^^ Emphasis mine.  There is your answer. People up top wanting to be in control, when the simple answer would be to spread the word to Wing members, saying "Here is a great cause for anyone available, please help. Leave your CAP uniform at home. You're on your own."
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: CAP9907 on December 11, 2020, 03:12:43 am
Quote from: etodd on December 11, 2020, 01:16:30 am
Quote from: UWONGO2 on December 10, 2020, 08:38:59 pmOther organizations are begging for bodies and don't particularly seem to care about previous experience or any kind of certifications. The state leadership of the Red Cross reached out to my wing looking for help. We said sure, what do you need? Their NHQ was begging the states for bodies to send to various mobilizations they had for COVID, fires, and hurricanes. They wanted us to put out the word that anyone interested in deploying that the Red Cross would pay for all travel expenses and waive the usual background check since CAP already did one. All training would be provided on site. They just need butts in airplane seats headed out to various disasters ASAP.

Wing leadership starting asking questions about command and control, lability, and even uniforms. The answer back was, whoa, we just want the people, we don't need CAP itself.

Last I heard the issue was "kicked upstairs" to region, I haven't heard anything about it in a long while.

If people want to volunteer in capacities that CAP doesn't claim to be a core competency, it's just easier to do so without dragging CAP into it.

^^^ Emphasis mine.  There is your answer. People up top wanting to be in control, when the simple answer would be to spread the word to Wing members, saying "Here is a great cause for anyone available, please help. Leave your CAP uniform at home. You're on your own."

People 'up top' are not 'wanting to be in control', they are actually required by CAP Regulations. I'd refer you to CAPR 60-3, 1-3 (d), 1-10, 1-12, and 1-14. As an ESO, surely you are familiar with this. When you get up to the Section Chief level you may appreciate this more fully.

And yes, some opportunities to serve the community are better done as private, non-CAP citizens.

~9907
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: etodd on December 11, 2020, 05:06:20 am
Quote from: CAP9907 on December 11, 2020, 03:12:43 amAnd yes, some opportunities to serve the community are better done as private, non-CAP citizens.


^^^^ That was my point.

If as a member you have skill sets, whether learned within CAP, or separately, STOP waiting for CAP to give you opportunities. Sure, its great when it happens. But get to know the players in your area, and let them know what you can bring to the table, individually.

While CAP leadership tries to figure out how to make things work .... go get some things done on your own, sans uniform.

Help the Red Cross ... build a house with Habitat for Humanity .... help the local Sheriff search for a missing person ... do something ...

The pride and satisfaction knowing you helped others ... is always a much better reward than some ribbon or certificate.

Its a good thing. :)
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 11, 2020, 06:13:42 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on December 10, 2020, 01:13:08 amLiterally the opposite of what we are saying. (and also strawman)

It is the same thing as what you are saying ,reduced to absurdity.

You simply saying it is the opposite doesn't make it so.

You have a consistent theme of saying things without evidence, to include your arguments as to WHY CAP SHOULDN'T TREAT WHAT THE STATES ARE GIVING MISSION NUMBERS TO AS MISSIONS.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 11, 2020, 07:59:03 pm
^ A number of us now have presented the reasoning.  If that's not enough for you, have at it.

For the record, no one is saying they can't, the argument is they shouldn't.

A - Because these aren't activities that are within CAP's core competencies.

B - Because assuming they are appropriate, they don't need internal ratings and training,
so they should be done as unit activities without the need for the ES bureaucracy, which
brings nothing unique to the table (since these aren't "emergency services").

C - Because they can be accomplished better / stronger / faster by members acting as
private citizens, especially in light of the fact that most of these organizations
want CAP's contact lists and not the uniforms, at which point the members can
submit the time for CSRs.

D - Because in many cases CAP is so interested in "getting in the game" it ignores its
own doctrines, protocols, policies and regulations, and puts unqualified members in the
field, at risk to themselves, the organization, and those they seek to help.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 11, 2020, 10:15:33 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on December 11, 2020, 07:59:03 pm^ A number of us now have presented the reasoning.  If that's not enough for you, have at it.

For the record, no one is saying they can't, the argument is they shouldn't.

A - Because these aren't activities that are within CAP's core competencies.

What are the core competencies that are needed and why are they not part of CAP's core competencies?

Be specific.

QuoteB - Because assuming they are appropriate, they don't need internal ratings and training,
so they should be done as unit activities without the need for the ES bureaucracy, which
brings nothing unique to the table (since these aren't "emergency services").

Wait, you just said they weren't part of our core competencies, now you are saying they don't need ratings and training to do them. Make up your mind.

QuoteC - Because they can be accomplished better / stronger / faster by members acting as
private citizens, especially in light of the fact that most of these organizations
want CAP's contact lists and not the uniforms, at which point the members can
submit the time for CSRs.

Our local agencies have state mission numbers and request CAP resources as missions. They disagree with your assessment 100% as does our chain of command all the way up to CAP/CC.

QuoteD - Because in many cases CAP is so interested in "getting in the game" it ignores its
own doctrines, protocols, policies and regulations, and puts unqualified members in the
field, at risk to themselves, the organization, and those they seek to help.

You literally in points B and C state there is no need for training and the only thing we bring is a contact list, now you say that we are ignoring doctrines, protocols, policies and regulations (though I'll note again without evidence) and proclaim the risk we bring to our volunteers, the organization, and those we seek to help somehow are non-existent when we otherwise volunteer as private citizens.


Your entire argument is without factsc self-contradictory, and flies in the face of the reality that AHJs have in the past, currently, and continue to request CAP mission numbers to go along with their own state's mission numbers for these activities.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Eclipse on December 11, 2020, 10:25:30 pm
We've made the arguments.  I'm done.  Not sure why you want to keep walking in a circle.

Read the thread, it's all there.
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 11, 2020, 10:37:51 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on December 11, 2020, 10:25:30 pmWe've made the arguments.  I'm done.  Not sure why you want to keep walking in a circle.

Read the thread, it's all there.

You have yet to provide a rebuttal to any point I brought up. Which is of course why you are "done."
Title: Re: Covid-19 remobilization updates
Post by: SarDragon on December 11, 2020, 11:37:19 pm
Speaking of done, so is this discussion.

Click.