August 13, 2020, 11:41:27 pm

ABU Wing Patches

Started by 8014410, May 02, 2020, 11:57:34 pm

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Capt Thompson

Quote from: supertigerCH on May 14, 2020, 05:18:30 pm
Quote from: shuman14 on May 06, 2020, 02:16:36 pmI wonder when CAP switches over to OCP pattern, if they'll keep the black boots or go with coyote... or both.

probably one black boot and one coyote boot... to make sure CAP is distinguishable from Air Force

Dark blue boots....silver laces to match the name tapes
Capt Matt Thompson
Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Luis R. Ramos

Or red laces. Blue boots and red laces, CAP colors.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Spam

Solid silver go-go boots... with mag-clamps. And thrusters. "On the bounce, troopers"!

... SPACE FORCE, yo!

Cheers
Spam

ColonelJack

It's not nice to make Diet Coke shoot through my nose like that, Spam ... funny, but not nice.

On the bounce indeed ...

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

shuman14

Quote from: Spam on May 15, 2020, 01:02:44 amSolid silver go-go boots... with mag-clamps. And thrusters. "On the bounce, troopers"!

... SPACE FORCE, yo!

Cheers
Spam



:-P
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

NIN

So many people want to be a door gunner on the space shuttle.

Sheesh, like that's even possible.

Us flight engineers have to get you there first.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spam

Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2020, 08:03:14 pmSo many people want to be a door gunner on the space shuttle.

Sheesh, like that's even possible.

Us flight engineers have to get you there first.

Oh I agree, I agree completely. So many pilots would be absolutely lost without a good FE or Nav...


PHall

Quote from: Spam on May 16, 2020, 12:44:49 am
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2020, 08:03:14 pmSo many people want to be a door gunner on the space shuttle.

Sheesh, like that's even possible.

Us flight engineers have to get you there first.

Oh I agree, I agree completely. So many pilots would be absolutely lost without a good FE or Nav...



She had a Nav, look where it got her.

Capt Thompson

Quote from: PHall on May 16, 2020, 01:43:08 am
Quote from: Spam on May 16, 2020, 12:44:49 am
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2020, 08:03:14 pmSo many people want to be a door gunner on the space shuttle.

Sheesh, like that's even possible.

Us flight engineers have to get you there first.

Oh I agree, I agree completely. So many pilots would be absolutely lost without a good FE or Nav...



She had a Nav, look where it got her.
"without a good FE or Nav....
Capt Matt Thompson
Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Hawk200

Quote from: PHall on May 06, 2020, 05:09:39 pmOne reason CAP will probably stick with black boots is cost. Coyote/Tan/Green boots are all in excess of $100.
Availability is another reason. There's a lot more police/fire uniform shops out there selling black boots then there are military clothing sales selling the Coyote/Tan/Green boots.
And we won't even discuss what Scamguard Vanguard would sell them for.

Walmart has a set of 670-1 compliant Coyote color boots for $44.23. For the limited use of CAP personnel, I could see them lasting a couple years.

From my view, seems like going with black is just because it's easy to not change.

GroundHawg

Quote from: Hawk200 on May 27, 2020, 01:02:01 pm
Quote from: PHall on May 06, 2020, 05:09:39 pmOne reason CAP will probably stick with black boots is cost. Coyote/Tan/Green boots are all in excess of $100.
Availability is another reason. There's a lot more police/fire uniform shops out there selling black boots then there are military clothing sales selling the Coyote/Tan/Green boots.
And we won't even discuss what Scamguard Vanguard would sell them for.

Walmart has a set of 670-1 compliant Coyote color boots for $44.23. For the limited use of CAP personnel, I could see them lasting a couple years.

From my view, seems like going with black is just because it's easy to not change.

The path of least resistance...

shuman14

Quote from: GroundHawg on May 27, 2020, 03:59:26 pm
Quote from: Hawk200 on May 27, 2020, 01:02:01 pmFrom my view, seems like going with black is just because it's easy to not change.

The path of least resistance...

Yep.

"How will cadets learn discipline if they don't have to polish boots!!!!" (Roll Eyes)
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

THRAWN

Quote from: Hawk200 on May 27, 2020, 01:02:01 pm
Quote from: PHall on May 06, 2020, 05:09:39 pmOne reason CAP will probably stick with black boots is cost. Coyote/Tan/Green boots are all in excess of $100.
Availability is another reason. There's a lot more police/fire uniform shops out there selling black boots then there are military clothing sales selling the Coyote/Tan/Green boots.
And we won't even discuss what Scamguard Vanguard would sell them for.

Walmart has a set of 670-1 compliant Coyote color boots for $44.23. For the limited use of CAP personnel, I could see them lasting a couple years.

From my view, seems like going with black is just because it's easy to not change.

U. G. L. Y. But I gotta tell ya, one of the most comfortable pair of boots I've worn in a long time. I'm about a year into wearing them, 3 or 4 times a week and they hold up really well. For the price, you really can't beat them, especially if you wear boots on a regular basis.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

Eclipse

Quote from: Hawk200 on May 27, 2020, 01:02:01 pmFrom my view, seems like going with black is just because it's easy to not change.

Change for change's sake or aesthetics serves no one and costs people money.

As it stands, black combat boots can be worn with the ABU/BDU/CFU/CWU/FDU/CFDU and the blues,
and they can be purchased at Walmart, not to mention 1MM other sources for ~$35
(certainly well under $50 anywhere).

The Propper boots at Walmart are listed at $119.

The average cadet is going to go through multiple pairs of boots a year
during their primary cadet years if they are fit properly.

There is zero mission-focused reason to wear anything but black.

The one thing I am in favor would be eliminating the shining,
but you can already do that with matte-finish tac boots.



shuman14

Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2020, 04:38:50 pm
Quote from: Hawk200 on May 27, 2020, 01:02:01 pmFrom my view, seems like going with black is just because it's easy to not change.

Change for change's sake or aesthetics serves no one and costs people money.

As it stands, black combat boots can be worn with the ABU/BDU/CFU/CWU/FDU/CFDU and the blues,
and they can be purchased at Walmart, not to mention 1MM other sources for ~$35
(certainly well under $50 anywhere).

The Propper boots at Walmart are listed at $119.

The average cadet is going to go through multiple pairs of boots a year
during their primary cadet years if they are fit properly.

There is zero mission-focused reason to wear anything but black.

The one thing I am in favor would be eliminating the shining,
but you can already do that with matte-finish tac boots.


Then here's the compromise...

Authorize for CAP wear:

Black Boots for - BDUs, ABUs, BBDUs and OCPs

Sage Boots for - ABUs only

Tan Boots - BDUs, ABUs and OCPs

Coyote Boots - OCPs only

This way prior Service Air Force get some more use out of their issued Tan or Sage boots.

Black will always be authorized  so passing of boots from cadets to cadets can continue.

Eventually BDUs and ABUs will be gone and BBDUs and OCPs will be the only field uniforms and two boots will be authorized, coyote and black.

Senior members that struggle with weight will still have one boot to buy, black, that they can switch between BBDU and OCP.

All incoming prior Service except the Coast Guard  will have a shade of coyote that they can still wear and the Coast Guard will have still have black that they were issued and can wear.

My thoughts is that CAP should as soon as possible authorize the wear of OCPs with CAP Blue Tapes and rank patches with Black, Tan or Coyote Boots and then determine a wear-out date for ABUs.

There will be a glut of ABUs very shortly as more Air Force Personnel discard them in favor of OCPs then, shortly there after, ABUs will begin to dry up and will no longer be authorized or produced... except by Vanguard... and the price will rise for theirs.

Address the problem now, have a solution in place (OCPs) now and extend or retract the wear-out date for ABUs as needed.

Also, existing full-color Wing patches can easily have Velcro added to their back and used on OCPs as needed or directed.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Capt Thompson

Everyone in blue BDU's...forget about ABU's, OCP's, everyone looks uniform, same color BDU's and same color boots, problem solved.

Seriously though, we should have seen the writing on the walls and skipped ABU's altogether in favor of OCP's, so many members bought the overpriced ABU's from VG and will be pissed if there is a phase out date posted in a year or so, which will most likely happen. When they are phased out, you will still have a several year phaseout window where members are wearing 3 different utility uniforms, which could have been avoided.
Capt Matt Thompson
Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

shuman14

May 27, 2020, 08:18:41 pm #56 Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 08:29:20 pm by shuman14 Reason: grammer mistakes
Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on May 27, 2020, 07:05:49 pmEveryone in blue BDU's...forget about ABU's, OCP's, everyone looks uniform, same color BDU's and same color boots, problem solved.

That's a very old idea/question.

Should CAP, as the official and only USAF Auxiliary wear the USAF uniform or should CAP as a civilian corporation have a different uniform, or any uniform at all?

You have to admit that part of the recruiting draw is the USAF uniform, especially on the cadet side but also for some adults.

I think (my opinion only) that CAP should do both. Cadets should remain in the USAF Uniform for Dress and Service uniforms and maybe field and flight uniforms.

Now Seniors, a single corporate uniform is the way to go BUT it needs to be pseudo-military and link to the USAF.


Mess Uniforms - keep the USAF uniform, the few that have it or want to spend the money on it, let them.

Dress/Service Uniform - adopt a modern version of the old TW silver-tan (khaki) uniforms. Coat, Shirt trousers in a modern poly-cotton blend in silver-tan. Standard military low quarters are the authorized shoes, USAF blue trouser belt, USAF necktie, USAF Flight and Garrison Hats. Silver on blue enlisted sleeve rank and a return to pin on rank, with a CAP cut-out, to coat epaulets and blue epaulets slides with rank and CAP for the shirts. Old style four pocket or modern slash pocket style coat TBD but should be the USAF styles regardless of which chosen. Shirts and trouser exact same style as the current USAF ones but silver/tan.

USAF Overcoats, jackets and Sweaters when/if needed.

No change to the Polo Shirt / grey trouser uniform, maybe change trousers to silver-tan over time.

No change to the Black Blazer, white shirt and grey trouser uniform - an optional business uniform for use in a civilian setting where uniforms would be inappropriate.

Flight Uniform - Blue corporate flightsuit but with USAF flight cap.

Field Uniform - pick one color (blue, olive drab or khaki), pick one style (BDU cut or OCP cut) pick one boot to match (most likely black). Blue tapes, badges and rank patches.

Allow for the wear of prior service awards, decorations and badges on ALL CAP uniforms.

Have a super long wear-out date for any uniform that was eliminated  to allow the maximum use before becoming obsolete. Donate as much as possible to the cadets as they will continue to wear USAF uniforms.

Can't make everyone happy, but this would make everyone the least unhappy but would create a militaristic uniform for CAP but separate and distinct from the USAF but still afford a loose affiliation to the USAF, at first glance, yet no would be confused for an USAF Servicemember.

Uniformity across all Senior members and no one is excluded due to weight or grooming issues.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

SarDragon

Most of that is fine ideas, except the tan dress uniform. If this is something CAP, and only CAP, wears, there will be an economy of scale problem. There will not be enough uniforms purchased on an annual basis for production to be worthwhile.

If every member buys a new uniform every year (actually an outrageous idea), that's only 55,000 uniforms, in a multitude of sizes, maybe as many as 15 or 16. That comes out to only about 3500 items in each size, which is not hardly worthwhile to tool up for. Now let's spread this out over several years, and the annual use and production figures go down even further. Noe economically sound.

More discussion here, with additional links.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

shuman14

May 28, 2020, 01:32:42 am #58 Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 01:42:39 am by shuman14 Reason: spelling and grammar
I hadn't thought about the economics. Solid points.

Spit balling, I'm sure there are police departments that use tan uniforms that "may" have a tan service coat, shirt and trousers that, with slight modifications, could possibly be used by CAP.

Also with the Army's adoption of the new Green Uniform, a readily available source of khaki shirts and trousers will shortly come on line. Then the only non-economically feasible portion of my proposed uniform would be the coat.

As many have pointed out, the only required uniform parts are the short sleeve shirt, trousers and Flight Cap. With that in mind, CAP could start using Army uniforms with Air Force belts, ties and hats and have our own corporate uniform rather quickly. The coat will always be the problem.

CAP could start using Army coats with maroon epaulets just like in the beginning. Change out Army gold buttons for silver CAP/USAF ones, the silver name tag and silver "US" cutouts would add to the difference between Army vs CAP, but then Army hats would have to be used to match the coat. So there would be a cost to create the "Clouds and Lighten Bolts" for Field Grade and Higher hats on brown/olive green or go slick like the Army intends to.

Here's a link to a vintage CAP coat picture to show how changing the epaulets out might look.

https://www.umainealumni.com/category-alumni/alum-donates-one-of-maines-earliest-wwii-era-civil-air-patrol-uniforms/ 

Here's a link to the new Army Green Uniform.

https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/03/28/sergeant-major-army-defends-plan-pinks-and-greens-uniform.html

Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Fubar

Quote from: shuman14 on May 27, 2020, 08:18:41 pmShould CAP, as the official and only USAF Auxiliary...

That's actually not accurate. Department of Defense Instruction 4650.02 which was released in 2009 converted the Air Force MARS program into an auxiliary. For the past 9 years the Civil Air Patrol has been one of two "official" auxiliaries of the Air Force.