August 09, 2020, 10:43:56 am

ABU Wing Patches

Started by 8014410, May 02, 2020, 11:57:34 pm

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8014410

My wing is currently switching patches and we currently don't know what thy look like. They said they needed to change to patch to make it go with USAF standards. Is the standard the AF shape patch. Also I did not want to buy a patch on vanguard that would be phased out so I just put a US CAP patch on my uniform, is that allowed on it. I read on 39-1 that you could be a national patch, so idk if I can wear that patch. Sorry for my bad grammar.

PHall

The "US CAP Patch" is the wing patch for the Overseas Squadrons.
Are you in Germany, the UK, Italy, Japan or South Korea?
If not, then you're wearing the wrong patch and you need to remove it.

8014410

It is but wouldn't it be a national patch and it is allowed to wear a national patch on the left sleeve. If not what is the national patch that I can wear?
Here is the regulation...
. Left Sleeve. One full color, wing/region/national patch may be
sewn to the coat on the left sleeve ½ inch below the shoulder seam[/b
]

arajca

If your wing is in the process of redesigning the wing patch, there will be a phase in period when both the old and new are authorized.

Also, unless your wing commander has published a directive otherwise, the wing patch is optional. Therefore, you do not have to wear it. Some wings have mandated it, some have banned it. Most, I think, have said either.

If your assigned to National HQ, you'd wear that patch in place of a wing patch. Same for Region. There isn't a generic national patch you can wear.

8014410

My unit commander wants for us to have a patch on the left sleeve.

Eclipse

For better or worse your Unit CC does not have the authority to mandate something that is optional by a naitonal regulation.



8014410

I know, but i just don't want to correct him because he has got upset for people correcting him in the past.

Eclipse

Well, that's unfortunate, and as a new cadet you need to pick you battles.

So either get the correct wing patch and move on, or remove the incorrect one
and move on.



8014410

Ok, good to know before I look like an idiot wearing the wrong patch. Thanks for your help!

shuman14

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I thought CAP policy was that if something was mandated for a Cadet, but normally would be optional for wear, then the local unit would have to provide it?

If a CC is mandating a shoulder patch for the Cadets, the he should provide the cadets with the patch he/she wants them to mandatorily wear.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

SarDragon

Never heard of it as a "word of mouth" thing, nor as written policy.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

shuman14

Quote from: SarDragon on May 04, 2020, 03:01:52 pmNever heard of it as a "word of mouth" thing, nor as written policy.

Ok, I guess I was misinformed.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

jeders

Quote from: SarDragon on May 04, 2020, 03:01:52 pmNever heard of it as a "word of mouth" thing, nor as written policy.

It absolutely is written policy that making the wear of optional uniform items by cadets has to either be voluntary or at no cost; CAPR 39-1, 1.2.1.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

arajca

Reference:

Quote from: CAPR 39-11.2.1.Individual members will obtain and maintain for weareither of the minimum basic uniforms described  here.  These  combinations  meet  the  requirements  of  most  CAP  events.  A  commander  may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a specific uniform  for  participation  in  a  National  Cadet  Special  Activity)  or  if  the  uniform  is  supplied without expense to the cadet.

emphasis mine

This happens to be one of the most ignored rules. 

SarDragon

I sit corrected.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

THRAWN

Quote from: arajca on May 04, 2020, 04:15:30 pmReference:

Quote from: CAPR 39-11.2.1.Individual members will obtain and maintain for weareither of the minimum basic uniforms described  here.  These  combinations  meet  the  requirements  of  most  CAP  events.  A  commander  may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a specific uniform  for  participation  in  a  National  Cadet  Special  Activity)  or  if  the  uniform  is  supplied without expense to the cadet.

emphasis mine

This happens to be one of the most ignored rules. 

This was discussed a lot, here, when the 39-1 was undergoing it's rewrite a few years back. And it's still ignored...
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

shuman14

Quote from: THRAWN on May 04, 2020, 05:13:44 pmThis was discussed a lot, here, when the 39-1 was undergoing it's rewrite a few years back. And it's still ignored...

I could have sworn I remember reading that before.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Eclipse

Quote from: THRAWN on May 04, 2020, 05:13:44 pmThis was discussed a lot, here, when the 39-1 was undergoing it's rewrite a few years back. And it's still ignored...

That tenant goes back to before my time in CAP (99), and it's something I've
brought up a number of times to NHQ to crickets and inconvenient truths.

Mainly, "How do we require field uniforms, etc., for cadets if they are not issued?"

The answers usually circle around the fact that at least technically all the mandated
activities for advancement could be achieved in blues, and that "thankfully most cadets
can work this out by encampment..." which really ignores the bigger question about the mandate.

(The fact that NHQ now has a program to provide first-year students with need most of an ABU
doesn't change the actual issue around the reg or the dichotomy...")



Toad1168

Here in Missouri Wing, we are currently updating the patch and are awaiting approval.  In Missouri, it IS OPTIONAL for wear. 

Unit commanders really need to follow the direction from higher headquarters........
Toad

JC004

This is the "NATIONAL" tab (there also used to be a "NATIONAL STAFF" one).  They are for people assigned to National; not everybody in CAP.  Just as region patches are for people assigned to the respective reason, not everyone in the wings below that region. 

https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/national-civil-air-patrol-arch-patch-color-grey

shuman14

May it's just the Marine Corps part of me that never went away that the concept of "Less is More" has stayed with me.

In the Army, you get a Combat Patch, Campaign Medal, Overseas Service Bars and an Overseas Service Ribbon for one deployment. Actually get shot at and you get a CIB/CMB/CAB too.

The two medal/ribbons say the same thing as the patch and bars.

We have a plethora of unit patches... the Marine Corps, Navy, Coast Guard, Space Force and Air Force have none (well none that they wear). I'd be happier to lose all and just go with the ribbon and medals earned. especially on a combat/working uniform.

I think that's why Wing patches are optional in CAP... less is more.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Eclipse

In the military you also get a paycheck, benefits, and often housing, and a career,
not to mention there are legit safety issues to keeping the uniforms quiet.

In CAP you get patches and badges, and it's all your dime.

I'm no more in favor of the NASCAR look then anyone else, but that's the reasoning.



TheSkyHornet

The less bling, the better.

It's less to tailor, less to worry about being placed incorrectly, and less wear and tear.  It also keeps the uniform from looking like a royal banquet on a daily basis.

I think the fact that CAP patches are colorized also add to the eye sore. Subdued patches aren't so bad on cammies, but the colorful Crayola drawings are brutal.

PHall

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 05, 2020, 08:31:31 pmThe less bling, the better.

It's less to tailor, less to worry about being placed incorrectly, and less wear and tear.  It also keeps the uniform from looking like a royal banquet on a daily basis.

I think the fact that CAP patches are colorized also add to the eye sore. Subdued patches aren't so bad on cammies, but the colorful Crayola drawings are brutal.


We wear the full color patches to comply with AFI 10-2701. Need to be distinguishable from Air Force personnel in low light conditions. The full color patches/tapes and the black boots do the job and don't cost any more too.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: PHall on May 05, 2020, 09:43:23 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 05, 2020, 08:31:31 pmThe less bling, the better.

It's less to tailor, less to worry about being placed incorrectly, and less wear and tear.  It also keeps the uniform from looking like a royal banquet on a daily basis.

I think the fact that CAP patches are colorized also add to the eye sore. Subdued patches aren't so bad on cammies, but the colorful Crayola drawings are brutal.


We wear the full color patches to comply with AFI 10-2701. Need to be distinguishable from Air Force personnel in low light conditions. The full color patches/tapes and the black boots do the job and don't cost any more too.

I get that.

I'm just saying it looks awful visually. I'm personally not a fan. Shouldn't have any bearing on the rest of the CAP universe.

PHall

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 06, 2020, 12:28:42 am
Quote from: PHall on May 05, 2020, 09:43:23 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 05, 2020, 08:31:31 pmThe less bling, the better.

It's less to tailor, less to worry about being placed incorrectly, and less wear and tear.  It also keeps the uniform from looking like a royal banquet on a daily basis.

I think the fact that CAP patches are colorized also add to the eye sore. Subdued patches aren't so bad on cammies, but the colorful Crayola drawings are brutal.


We wear the full color patches to comply with AFI 10-2701. Need to be distinguishable from Air Force personnel in low light conditions. The full color patches/tapes and the black boots do the job and don't cost any more too.

I get that.

I'm just saying it looks awful visually. I'm personally not a fan. Shouldn't have any bearing on the rest of the CAP universe.

You always have to option to wear the Blue BDU which actually looks pretty good with the full color insignia.

GroundHawg


[/quote]
Quote from: PHall on May 06, 2020, 12:42:28 amYou always have to option to wear the Blue BDU which actually looks pretty good with the full color insignia.

That's what I do.

I think the black boots with the ABU is heinous and offends my delicate sensibilities.

I have also found that when taking DHS, FEMA, DES, etc... courses that I am taken seriously instead of being looked at like I am a clown. I blend right in with LEO, fire department personnel, Coasties, and other first responder types

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: PHall on May 06, 2020, 12:42:28 am
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 06, 2020, 12:28:42 am
Quote from: PHall on May 05, 2020, 09:43:23 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 05, 2020, 08:31:31 pmThe less bling, the better.

It's less to tailor, less to worry about being placed incorrectly, and less wear and tear.  It also keeps the uniform from looking like a royal banquet on a daily basis.

I think the fact that CAP patches are colorized also add to the eye sore. Subdued patches aren't so bad on cammies, but the colorful Crayola drawings are brutal.


We wear the full color patches to comply with AFI 10-2701. Need to be distinguishable from Air Force personnel in low light conditions. The full color patches/tapes and the black boots do the job and don't cost any more too.

I get that.

I'm just saying it looks awful visually. I'm personally not a fan. Shouldn't have any bearing on the rest of the CAP universe.

You always have to option to wear the Blue BDU which actually looks pretty good with the full color insignia.

No argument there whatsoever.

Blue on blue usually matches quite well.

shuman14

I wonder when CAP switches over to OCP pattern, if they'll keep the black boots or go with coyote... or both.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: shuman14 on May 06, 2020, 02:16:36 pmI wonder when CAP switches over to OCP pattern, if they'll keep the black boots or go with coyote... or both.

Likely will stick to black. There's no real reason to swap unless people stopped making black boots like how ABU's production will begin to fade off. That's not a really likely case though, so black boots will stay. Honestly though they don't look bad with OCP's. I've seen them worn and they're better than ABU's/Black Boots.

Who am I kidding I wear the FDU most of the time anyways.  8)  8)  8)
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


NIN

Quote from: GroundHawg on May 06, 2020, 11:43:50 amI think the black boots with the ABU is heinous and offends my delicate sensibilities.

The only people who seem to notice that "black boots with ABU" is out of place are AF people. And even then, they don't see that first: They see the insignia.

Did you know that the original ABU concept that the USAF was considering (the "more blue, more tiger" pattern) had an 8 point cover (yeeech) and black boots? And people screamed about the "Sage Green" boots at the time of their implementation.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

shuman14

The OCP's are a color that would work with Black, they're kinda close to the old BDUs. I have a footlocker's worth of old brown t-shirts that are nearly the same as the new coyote t-shirts so I'm using them again.

Old olive drab LBE also doesn't look out of place with them either. At my rank, I only carry a pistol any more so an OD belt, Y-harness, canteens holster and ammo pouch is all I really need anymore.

Last range day, that's all I wore and it didn't look out of place at all.

For CAP, I would recommend allowing black, tan, coyote and sage during the transition period that would allow everyone to get their moneys worth out of the boots they already have and push new joins to buy coyote as opposed to any other color.

The Velcro will help with Cadets with growth spurts and rapid promotions so no sewing anymore, I would only authorize sew on tapes and insignia for Senior Members.

I know they make Blue Versions of the ACU style uniforms so I "assume" blue OCP style uniforms will available shortly so the Corporate could change too.

Just talking out loud here...
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: NIN on May 06, 2020, 02:30:26 pm
Quote from: GroundHawg on May 06, 2020, 11:43:50 amI think the black boots with the ABU is heinous and offends my delicate sensibilities.

The only people who seem to notice that "black boots with ABU" is out of place are AF people. And even then, they don't see that first: They see the insignia.

Did you know that the original ABU concept that the USAF was considering (the "more blue, more tiger" pattern) had an 8 point cover (yeeech) and black boots? And people screamed about the "Sage Green" boots at the time of their implementation.

You mean this monstrosity?

Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


shuman14

Quote from: DocJekyll on May 06, 2020, 04:02:31 pmYou mean this monstrosity?


I think I have a Hawaiian Shirt in that pattern!
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

PHall

One reason CAP will probably stick with black boots is cost. Coyote/Tan/Green boots are all in excess of $100.
Availability is another reason. There's a lot more police/fire uniform shops out there selling black boots then there are military clothing sales selling the Coyote/Tan/Green boots.
And we won't even discuss what Scamguard Vanguard would sell them for.

Jester

Quote from: DocJekyll on May 06, 2020, 04:02:31 pm
Quote from: NIN on May 06, 2020, 02:30:26 pm
Quote from: GroundHawg on May 06, 2020, 11:43:50 amI think the black boots with the ABU is heinous and offends my delicate sensibilities.

The only people who seem to notice that "black boots with ABU" is out of place are AF people. And even then, they don't see that first: They see the insignia.

Did you know that the original ABU concept that the USAF was considering (the "more blue, more tiger" pattern) had an 8 point cover (yeeech) and black boots? And people screamed about the "Sage Green" boots at the time of their implementation.

You mean this monstrosity?



I was in tech school when that came out, we were all mortified.  One of our prior-service guys called and arranged a transfer back to the USMCR based on that eyesore (more like the straw that broke the camel's back, but still).

I stumbled on a pair of the pants new with tags at a gun show circa 2009.  The fabric was an even heavier weight than the first-generation ABUs (I didn't think that was even possible).  And they had those godawful little AF symbols in the pattern (more of a ripoff of the USMC to go along with the 8-point cover).  Don't even get me started on the henley-style undershirt with embroidered name.

I don't remember being a huge fan of the boots, but I did appreciate not having to iron and shine anymore.

shuman14

Quote from: PHall on May 06, 2020, 05:09:39 pmOne reason CAP will probably stick with black boots is cost. Coyote/Tan/Green boots are all in excess of $100.
Availability is another reason. There's a lot more police/fire uniform shops out there selling black boots then there are military clothing sales selling the Coyote/Tan/Green boots.
And we won't even discuss what Scamguard Vanguard would sell them for.

Well you do get what you pay for, regardless of color.

I just GTS'ed: Coyote tan boots, and saw numerous styles under $100.00 as well as many more over $100.00. I would assume as the Army, Air Force and Space Force are all using them now, the price will come down accordingly over time.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

UWONGO2

Quote from: NIN on May 06, 2020, 02:30:26 pm
Quote from: GroundHawg on May 06, 2020, 11:43:50 amI think the black boots with the ABU is heinous and offends my delicate sensibilities.

The only people who seem to notice that "black boots with ABU" is out of place are AF people. And even then, they don't see that first: They see the insignia.

Our encampment is an at Army post. One day I'm standing in line for chow with the rest of encampment and half the Army when I hear some soldiers start having an animated discussion on how bad the black boots looked with the ABUs. One of them mentioned something about uniforms being issued, I turned and let them know that as volunteers we have to purchase all of our uniforms out-of-pocket, including the boots.

Suddenly their conversation turned to if they had to buy their own boots, they would get the cheapest available regardless of color. I think I even heard the word "pink" thrown around.

But they definitely notice the boots first. I had a soldier come find me (again at chow) let me know that he thought "one of your kids" was sick in the bathroom. He said he saw the black boots under the stall and assumed he was mine (can't argue with the deductive reasoning).

The interactions we have with the active duty military is always interesting. The post is mostly kids who just got out of basic, so they're all young kids who have no idea what to do with these funny looking uniforms walking around their workspace.

supertigerCH

Quote from: shuman14 on May 06, 2020, 02:16:36 pmI wonder when CAP switches over to OCP pattern, if they'll keep the black boots or go with coyote... or both.

probably one black boot and one coyote boot... to make sure CAP is distinguishable from Air Force

shuman14

Quote from: supertigerCH on May 14, 2020, 05:18:30 pm
Quote from: shuman14 on May 06, 2020, 02:16:36 pmI wonder when CAP switches over to OCP pattern, if they'll keep the black boots or go with coyote... or both.

probably one black boot and one coyote boot... to make sure CAP is distinguishable from Air Force

Giggle, snicker, snicker. :-D
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Capt Thompson

Quote from: supertigerCH on May 14, 2020, 05:18:30 pm
Quote from: shuman14 on May 06, 2020, 02:16:36 pmI wonder when CAP switches over to OCP pattern, if they'll keep the black boots or go with coyote... or both.

probably one black boot and one coyote boot... to make sure CAP is distinguishable from Air Force

Dark blue boots....silver laces to match the name tapes
Capt Matt Thompson
Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Luis R. Ramos

Or red laces. Blue boots and red laces, CAP colors.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Spam

Solid silver go-go boots... with mag-clamps. And thrusters. "On the bounce, troopers"!

... SPACE FORCE, yo!

Cheers
Spam

ColonelJack

It's not nice to make Diet Coke shoot through my nose like that, Spam ... funny, but not nice.

On the bounce indeed ...

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

shuman14

Quote from: Spam on May 15, 2020, 01:02:44 amSolid silver go-go boots... with mag-clamps. And thrusters. "On the bounce, troopers"!

... SPACE FORCE, yo!

Cheers
Spam



:-P
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

NIN

So many people want to be a door gunner on the space shuttle.

Sheesh, like that's even possible.

Us flight engineers have to get you there first.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spam

Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2020, 08:03:14 pmSo many people want to be a door gunner on the space shuttle.

Sheesh, like that's even possible.

Us flight engineers have to get you there first.

Oh I agree, I agree completely. So many pilots would be absolutely lost without a good FE or Nav...


PHall

Quote from: Spam on May 16, 2020, 12:44:49 am
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2020, 08:03:14 pmSo many people want to be a door gunner on the space shuttle.

Sheesh, like that's even possible.

Us flight engineers have to get you there first.

Oh I agree, I agree completely. So many pilots would be absolutely lost without a good FE or Nav...



She had a Nav, look where it got her.

Capt Thompson

Quote from: PHall on May 16, 2020, 01:43:08 am
Quote from: Spam on May 16, 2020, 12:44:49 am
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2020, 08:03:14 pmSo many people want to be a door gunner on the space shuttle.

Sheesh, like that's even possible.

Us flight engineers have to get you there first.

Oh I agree, I agree completely. So many pilots would be absolutely lost without a good FE or Nav...



She had a Nav, look where it got her.
"without a good FE or Nav....
Capt Matt Thompson
Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Hawk200

Quote from: PHall on May 06, 2020, 05:09:39 pmOne reason CAP will probably stick with black boots is cost. Coyote/Tan/Green boots are all in excess of $100.
Availability is another reason. There's a lot more police/fire uniform shops out there selling black boots then there are military clothing sales selling the Coyote/Tan/Green boots.
And we won't even discuss what Scamguard Vanguard would sell them for.

Walmart has a set of 670-1 compliant Coyote color boots for $44.23. For the limited use of CAP personnel, I could see them lasting a couple years.

From my view, seems like going with black is just because it's easy to not change.

GroundHawg

Quote from: Hawk200 on May 27, 2020, 01:02:01 pm
Quote from: PHall on May 06, 2020, 05:09:39 pmOne reason CAP will probably stick with black boots is cost. Coyote/Tan/Green boots are all in excess of $100.
Availability is another reason. There's a lot more police/fire uniform shops out there selling black boots then there are military clothing sales selling the Coyote/Tan/Green boots.
And we won't even discuss what Scamguard Vanguard would sell them for.

Walmart has a set of 670-1 compliant Coyote color boots for $44.23. For the limited use of CAP personnel, I could see them lasting a couple years.

From my view, seems like going with black is just because it's easy to not change.

The path of least resistance...

shuman14

Quote from: GroundHawg on May 27, 2020, 03:59:26 pm
Quote from: Hawk200 on May 27, 2020, 01:02:01 pmFrom my view, seems like going with black is just because it's easy to not change.

The path of least resistance...

Yep.

"How will cadets learn discipline if they don't have to polish boots!!!!" (Roll Eyes)
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

THRAWN

Quote from: Hawk200 on May 27, 2020, 01:02:01 pm
Quote from: PHall on May 06, 2020, 05:09:39 pmOne reason CAP will probably stick with black boots is cost. Coyote/Tan/Green boots are all in excess of $100.
Availability is another reason. There's a lot more police/fire uniform shops out there selling black boots then there are military clothing sales selling the Coyote/Tan/Green boots.
And we won't even discuss what Scamguard Vanguard would sell them for.

Walmart has a set of 670-1 compliant Coyote color boots for $44.23. For the limited use of CAP personnel, I could see them lasting a couple years.

From my view, seems like going with black is just because it's easy to not change.

U. G. L. Y. But I gotta tell ya, one of the most comfortable pair of boots I've worn in a long time. I'm about a year into wearing them, 3 or 4 times a week and they hold up really well. For the price, you really can't beat them, especially if you wear boots on a regular basis.
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

Eclipse

Quote from: Hawk200 on May 27, 2020, 01:02:01 pmFrom my view, seems like going with black is just because it's easy to not change.

Change for change's sake or aesthetics serves no one and costs people money.

As it stands, black combat boots can be worn with the ABU/BDU/CFU/CWU/FDU/CFDU and the blues,
and they can be purchased at Walmart, not to mention 1MM other sources for ~$35
(certainly well under $50 anywhere).

The Propper boots at Walmart are listed at $119.

The average cadet is going to go through multiple pairs of boots a year
during their primary cadet years if they are fit properly.

There is zero mission-focused reason to wear anything but black.

The one thing I am in favor would be eliminating the shining,
but you can already do that with matte-finish tac boots.



shuman14

Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2020, 04:38:50 pm
Quote from: Hawk200 on May 27, 2020, 01:02:01 pmFrom my view, seems like going with black is just because it's easy to not change.

Change for change's sake or aesthetics serves no one and costs people money.

As it stands, black combat boots can be worn with the ABU/BDU/CFU/CWU/FDU/CFDU and the blues,
and they can be purchased at Walmart, not to mention 1MM other sources for ~$35
(certainly well under $50 anywhere).

The Propper boots at Walmart are listed at $119.

The average cadet is going to go through multiple pairs of boots a year
during their primary cadet years if they are fit properly.

There is zero mission-focused reason to wear anything but black.

The one thing I am in favor would be eliminating the shining,
but you can already do that with matte-finish tac boots.


Then here's the compromise...

Authorize for CAP wear:

Black Boots for - BDUs, ABUs, BBDUs and OCPs

Sage Boots for - ABUs only

Tan Boots - BDUs, ABUs and OCPs

Coyote Boots - OCPs only

This way prior Service Air Force get some more use out of their issued Tan or Sage boots.

Black will always be authorized  so passing of boots from cadets to cadets can continue.

Eventually BDUs and ABUs will be gone and BBDUs and OCPs will be the only field uniforms and two boots will be authorized, coyote and black.

Senior members that struggle with weight will still have one boot to buy, black, that they can switch between BBDU and OCP.

All incoming prior Service except the Coast Guard  will have a shade of coyote that they can still wear and the Coast Guard will have still have black that they were issued and can wear.

My thoughts is that CAP should as soon as possible authorize the wear of OCPs with CAP Blue Tapes and rank patches with Black, Tan or Coyote Boots and then determine a wear-out date for ABUs.

There will be a glut of ABUs very shortly as more Air Force Personnel discard them in favor of OCPs then, shortly there after, ABUs will begin to dry up and will no longer be authorized or produced... except by Vanguard... and the price will rise for theirs.

Address the problem now, have a solution in place (OCPs) now and extend or retract the wear-out date for ABUs as needed.

Also, existing full-color Wing patches can easily have Velcro added to their back and used on OCPs as needed or directed.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Capt Thompson

Everyone in blue BDU's...forget about ABU's, OCP's, everyone looks uniform, same color BDU's and same color boots, problem solved.

Seriously though, we should have seen the writing on the walls and skipped ABU's altogether in favor of OCP's, so many members bought the overpriced ABU's from VG and will be pissed if there is a phase out date posted in a year or so, which will most likely happen. When they are phased out, you will still have a several year phaseout window where members are wearing 3 different utility uniforms, which could have been avoided.
Capt Matt Thompson
Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

shuman14

May 27, 2020, 08:18:41 pm #56 Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 08:29:20 pm by shuman14 Reason: grammer mistakes
Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on May 27, 2020, 07:05:49 pmEveryone in blue BDU's...forget about ABU's, OCP's, everyone looks uniform, same color BDU's and same color boots, problem solved.

That's a very old idea/question.

Should CAP, as the official and only USAF Auxiliary wear the USAF uniform or should CAP as a civilian corporation have a different uniform, or any uniform at all?

You have to admit that part of the recruiting draw is the USAF uniform, especially on the cadet side but also for some adults.

I think (my opinion only) that CAP should do both. Cadets should remain in the USAF Uniform for Dress and Service uniforms and maybe field and flight uniforms.

Now Seniors, a single corporate uniform is the way to go BUT it needs to be pseudo-military and link to the USAF.


Mess Uniforms - keep the USAF uniform, the few that have it or want to spend the money on it, let them.

Dress/Service Uniform - adopt a modern version of the old TW silver-tan (khaki) uniforms. Coat, Shirt trousers in a modern poly-cotton blend in silver-tan. Standard military low quarters are the authorized shoes, USAF blue trouser belt, USAF necktie, USAF Flight and Garrison Hats. Silver on blue enlisted sleeve rank and a return to pin on rank, with a CAP cut-out, to coat epaulets and blue epaulets slides with rank and CAP for the shirts. Old style four pocket or modern slash pocket style coat TBD but should be the USAF styles regardless of which chosen. Shirts and trouser exact same style as the current USAF ones but silver/tan.

USAF Overcoats, jackets and Sweaters when/if needed.

No change to the Polo Shirt / grey trouser uniform, maybe change trousers to silver-tan over time.

No change to the Black Blazer, white shirt and grey trouser uniform - an optional business uniform for use in a civilian setting where uniforms would be inappropriate.

Flight Uniform - Blue corporate flightsuit but with USAF flight cap.

Field Uniform - pick one color (blue, olive drab or khaki), pick one style (BDU cut or OCP cut) pick one boot to match (most likely black). Blue tapes, badges and rank patches.

Allow for the wear of prior service awards, decorations and badges on ALL CAP uniforms.

Have a super long wear-out date for any uniform that was eliminated  to allow the maximum use before becoming obsolete. Donate as much as possible to the cadets as they will continue to wear USAF uniforms.

Can't make everyone happy, but this would make everyone the least unhappy but would create a militaristic uniform for CAP but separate and distinct from the USAF but still afford a loose affiliation to the USAF, at first glance, yet no would be confused for an USAF Servicemember.

Uniformity across all Senior members and no one is excluded due to weight or grooming issues.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

SarDragon

Most of that is fine ideas, except the tan dress uniform. If this is something CAP, and only CAP, wears, there will be an economy of scale problem. There will not be enough uniforms purchased on an annual basis for production to be worthwhile.

If every member buys a new uniform every year (actually an outrageous idea), that's only 55,000 uniforms, in a multitude of sizes, maybe as many as 15 or 16. That comes out to only about 3500 items in each size, which is not hardly worthwhile to tool up for. Now let's spread this out over several years, and the annual use and production figures go down even further. Noe economically sound.

More discussion here, with additional links.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

shuman14

May 28, 2020, 01:32:42 am #58 Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 01:42:39 am by shuman14 Reason: spelling and grammar
I hadn't thought about the economics. Solid points.

Spit balling, I'm sure there are police departments that use tan uniforms that "may" have a tan service coat, shirt and trousers that, with slight modifications, could possibly be used by CAP.

Also with the Army's adoption of the new Green Uniform, a readily available source of khaki shirts and trousers will shortly come on line. Then the only non-economically feasible portion of my proposed uniform would be the coat.

As many have pointed out, the only required uniform parts are the short sleeve shirt, trousers and Flight Cap. With that in mind, CAP could start using Army uniforms with Air Force belts, ties and hats and have our own corporate uniform rather quickly. The coat will always be the problem.

CAP could start using Army coats with maroon epaulets just like in the beginning. Change out Army gold buttons for silver CAP/USAF ones, the silver name tag and silver "US" cutouts would add to the difference between Army vs CAP, but then Army hats would have to be used to match the coat. So there would be a cost to create the "Clouds and Lighten Bolts" for Field Grade and Higher hats on brown/olive green or go slick like the Army intends to.

Here's a link to a vintage CAP coat picture to show how changing the epaulets out might look.

https://www.umainealumni.com/category-alumni/alum-donates-one-of-maines-earliest-wwii-era-civil-air-patrol-uniforms/ 

Here's a link to the new Army Green Uniform.

https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/03/28/sergeant-major-army-defends-plan-pinks-and-greens-uniform.html

Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Fubar

Quote from: shuman14 on May 27, 2020, 08:18:41 pmShould CAP, as the official and only USAF Auxiliary...

That's actually not accurate. Department of Defense Instruction 4650.02 which was released in 2009 converted the Air Force MARS program into an auxiliary. For the past 9 years the Civil Air Patrol has been one of two "official" auxiliaries of the Air Force.

shuman14

Quote from: Fubar on May 28, 2020, 04:22:43 am
Quote from: shuman14 on May 27, 2020, 08:18:41 pmShould CAP, as the official and only USAF Auxiliary...

That's actually not accurate. Department of Defense Instruction 4650.02 which was released in 2009 converted the Air Force MARS program into an auxiliary. For the past 9 years the Civil Air Patrol has been one of two "official" auxiliaries of the Air Force.

I did not know, thank you, I stand corrected.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

arajca

Instead of a tan service coat, consider a navy blue or black. These are available through police uniform companies - Police dress uniform jacket.

shuman14

Quote from: arajca on May 28, 2020, 03:11:36 pmInstead of a tan service coat, consider a navy blue or black. These are available through police uniform companies - Police dress uniform jacket.

My original thought was to have an all tan/khaki uniform with the USAF Blue highlights of Hat, tie and belt.

If CAP was to use a black/navy blue service coat we have a three tone tan/black/USAF Blue uniform.

Now ties, belts and barracks (saucer) hats in a black/navy blue to match the coat are easy to find... flight caps to match... not so much.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

THRAWN

Quote from: shuman14 on May 28, 2020, 05:33:16 pm
Quote from: arajca on May 28, 2020, 03:11:36 pmInstead of a tan service coat, consider a navy blue or black. These are available through police uniform companies - Police dress uniform jacket.

My original thought was to have an all tan/khaki uniform with the USAF Blue highlights of Hat, tie and belt.

If CAP was to use a black/navy blue service coat we have a three tone tan/black/USAF Blue uniform.

Now ties, belts and barracks (saucer) hats in a black/navy blue to match the coat are easy to find... flight caps to match... not so much.

Easy. http://www.uniforms-4u.com/p-us-navy-black-unisex-garrison-cap-7323.aspx
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

kcebnaes

Quote from: THRAWN on May 29, 2020, 12:21:22 pm
Quote from: shuman14 on May 28, 2020, 05:33:16 pm
Quote from: arajca on May 28, 2020, 03:11:36 pmInstead of a tan service coat, consider a navy blue or black. These are available through police uniform companies - Police dress uniform jacket.

My original thought was to have an all tan/khaki uniform with the USAF Blue highlights of Hat, tie and belt.

If CAP was to use a black/navy blue service coat we have a three tone tan/black/USAF Blue uniform.

Now ties, belts and barracks (saucer) hats in a black/navy blue to match the coat are easy to find... flight caps to match... not so much.

Easy. http://www.uniforms-4u.com/p-us-navy-black-unisex-garrison-cap-7323.aspx

Use that garrison cap with pin on rank insignia.
Sean Beck, Maj, CAP
Great Lakes Region sUAS Officer
Various Other Things™

arajca

Quote from: kcebnaes on May 29, 2020, 01:37:46 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on May 29, 2020, 12:21:22 pm
Quote from: shuman14 on May 28, 2020, 05:33:16 pm
Quote from: arajca on May 28, 2020, 03:11:36 pmInstead of a tan service coat, consider a navy blue or black. These are available through police uniform companies - Police dress uniform jacket.

My original thought was to have an all tan/khaki uniform with the USAF Blue highlights of Hat, tie and belt.

If CAP was to use a black/navy blue service coat we have a three tone tan/black/USAF Blue uniform.

Now ties, belts and barracks (saucer) hats in a black/navy blue to match the coat are easy to find... flight caps to match... not so much.

Easy. http://www.uniforms-4u.com/p-us-navy-black-unisex-garrison-cap-7323.aspx

Use that garrison cap with pin on rank insignia.
Naw. Use the SM flight cap device.

GZCP31

Quote from: arajca on May 29, 2020, 03:00:27 pm
Quote from: kcebnaes on May 29, 2020, 01:37:46 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on May 29, 2020, 12:21:22 pm
Quote from: shuman14 on May 28, 2020, 05:33:16 pm
Quote from: arajca on May 28, 2020, 03:11:36 pmInstead of a tan service coat, consider a navy blue or black. These are available through police uniform companies - Police dress uniform jacket.

My original thought was to have an all tan/khaki uniform with the USAF Blue highlights of Hat, tie and belt.

If CAP was to use a black/navy blue service coat we have a three tone tan/black/USAF Blue uniform.

Now ties, belts and barracks (saucer) hats in a black/navy blue to match the coat are easy to find... flight caps to match... not so much.

Easy. http://www.uniforms-4u.com/p-us-navy-black-unisex-garrison-cap-7323.aspx

Use that garrison cap with pin on rank insignia.
Naw. Use the SM flight cap device.

The uniform that is being promoted is starting to look like the Young Marines program. Just substitute the "Navy-Black" for Dark Green and you have the uniform.
Former OK Wing DCL/DCA Mid 90s, Rejoined after 17 years out.
Capt. Communications-Master
Squadron Deputy Commander, Emergency Services Training Officer,  Professional Development Officer,  Administration Officer, Personnel Officer, Communications Officer and Aerospace Education Officer, Texas Wing DOU

arajca

Quote from: GZCP31 on May 29, 2020, 04:20:36 pm
Quote from: arajca on May 29, 2020, 03:00:27 pm
Quote from: kcebnaes on May 29, 2020, 01:37:46 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on May 29, 2020, 12:21:22 pm
Quote from: shuman14 on May 28, 2020, 05:33:16 pm
Quote from: arajca on May 28, 2020, 03:11:36 pmInstead of a tan service coat, consider a navy blue or black. These are available through police uniform companies - Police dress uniform jacket.

My original thought was to have an all tan/khaki uniform with the USAF Blue highlights of Hat, tie and belt.

If CAP was to use a black/navy blue service coat we have a three tone tan/black/USAF Blue uniform.

Now ties, belts and barracks (saucer) hats in a black/navy blue to match the coat are easy to find... flight caps to match... not so much.

Easy. http://www.uniforms-4u.com/p-us-navy-black-unisex-garrison-cap-7323.aspx

Use that garrison cap with pin on rank insignia.
Naw. Use the SM flight cap device.

The uniform that is being promoted is starting to look like the Young Marines program. Just substitute the "Navy-Black" for Dark Green and you have the uniform.
Well, use grey pants and a white shirt instead of khaki, and a black service coat...

Wait a minute, wasn't that suggested a few years ago?

shuman14

The Young marines Uniform IS the Marine Corps Service Uniform.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

shuman14

Black white and grey is ugly and not really para-military.

An aesthetically pleasing uniform helps recruitment... that would not.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Eclipse

Using any parts of military uniforms from any other service is just as problematic as its always been.

As to the hat(s) - dump them.  They are another unnecessary affectation of a bygone era - wearing a hat is no longer
a social norm, and they serve no mission-focused purpose.

Also, creating a whole new uniform doesn't fix the problem, it only makes it worse.
All the needed pieces exist in the inventory today.



shuman14

Quote from: Eclipse on May 29, 2020, 05:57:49 pmUsing any parts of military uniforms from any other service is just as problematic as its always been.

As to the hat(s) - dump them.  They are another unnecessary affectation of a bygone era - wearing a hat is no longer
a social norm, and they serve no mission-focused purpose.

Also, creating a whole new uniform doesn't fix the problem, it only makes it worse.
All the needed pieces exist in the inventory today.

The military wears hats, their Auxiliaries wear hats. The general public does not. The military and its auxiliaries are not the general public.

I guess you're a status quo kinda guy, don't rock the boat.

Multiple uniforms in one formation looks like a circus.

One senior member uniform would go a long way to add to the professionalism and appearance of the Organization.

Maybe the simpler route is to get the USAF to lift their height/weight and grooming standards for CAP.

The Coast Guard pretty much does that with the USCG Auxiliary. Plenty of overweight and bearded Auxies.

If CAP could get that concession then USAF style uniforms would be the sole choice.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: National Patron 2013 - 2014, SMWOG 2020 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

SarDragon

The horse is dead.

Bye.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret