May 26, 2020, 04:22:49 pm

ABU Wing Patches

Started by 8014410, May 02, 2020, 11:57:34 pm

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

8014410

My wing is currently switching patches and we currently don't know what thy look like. They said they needed to change to patch to make it go with USAF standards. Is the standard the AF shape patch. Also I did not want to buy a patch on vanguard that would be phased out so I just put a US CAP patch on my uniform, is that allowed on it. I read on 39-1 that you could be a national patch, so idk if I can wear that patch. Sorry for my bad grammar.

PHall

The "US CAP Patch" is the wing patch for the Overseas Squadrons.
Are you in Germany, the UK, Italy, Japan or South Korea?
If not, then you're wearing the wrong patch and you need to remove it.

8014410

It is but wouldn't it be a national patch and it is allowed to wear a national patch on the left sleeve. If not what is the national patch that I can wear?
Here is the regulation...
. Left Sleeve. One full color, wing/region/national patch may be
sewn to the coat on the left sleeve ½ inch below the shoulder seam[/b
]

arajca

If your wing is in the process of redesigning the wing patch, there will be a phase in period when both the old and new are authorized.

Also, unless your wing commander has published a directive otherwise, the wing patch is optional. Therefore, you do not have to wear it. Some wings have mandated it, some have banned it. Most, I think, have said either.

If your assigned to National HQ, you'd wear that patch in place of a wing patch. Same for Region. There isn't a generic national patch you can wear.

8014410

My unit commander wants for us to have a patch on the left sleeve.

Eclipse

For better or worse your Unit CC does not have the authority to mandate something that is optional by a naitonal regulation.



8014410

I know, but i just don't want to correct him because he has got upset for people correcting him in the past.

Eclipse

Well, that's unfortunate, and as a new cadet you need to pick you battles.

So either get the correct wing patch and move on, or remove the incorrect one
and move on.



8014410

Ok, good to know before I look like an idiot wearing the wrong patch. Thanks for your help!

shuman14

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I thought CAP policy was that if something was mandated for a Cadet, but normally would be optional for wear, then the local unit would have to provide it?

If a CC is mandating a shoulder patch for the Cadets, the he should provide the cadets with the patch he/she wants them to mandatorily wear.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

SarDragon

Never heard of it as a "word of mouth" thing, nor as written policy.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

shuman14

Quote from: SarDragon on May 04, 2020, 03:01:52 pmNever heard of it as a "word of mouth" thing, nor as written policy.

Ok, I guess I was misinformed.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

jeders

Quote from: SarDragon on May 04, 2020, 03:01:52 pmNever heard of it as a "word of mouth" thing, nor as written policy.

It absolutely is written policy that making the wear of optional uniform items by cadets has to either be voluntary or at no cost; CAPR 39-1, 1.2.1.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

arajca

Reference:

Quote from: CAPR 39-11.2.1.Individual members will obtain and maintain for weareither of the minimum basic uniforms described  here.  These  combinations  meet  the  requirements  of  most  CAP  events.  A  commander  may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a specific uniform  for  participation  in  a  National  Cadet  Special  Activity)  or  if  the  uniform  is  supplied without expense to the cadet.

emphasis mine

This happens to be one of the most ignored rules. 

SarDragon

I sit corrected.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

THRAWN

Quote from: arajca on May 04, 2020, 04:15:30 pmReference:

Quote from: CAPR 39-11.2.1.Individual members will obtain and maintain for weareither of the minimum basic uniforms described  here.  These  combinations  meet  the  requirements  of  most  CAP  events.  A  commander  may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a specific uniform  for  participation  in  a  National  Cadet  Special  Activity)  or  if  the  uniform  is  supplied without expense to the cadet.

emphasis mine

This happens to be one of the most ignored rules. 

This was discussed a lot, here, when the 39-1 was undergoing it's rewrite a few years back. And it's still ignored...
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016

shuman14

Quote from: THRAWN on May 04, 2020, 05:13:44 pmThis was discussed a lot, here, when the 39-1 was undergoing it's rewrite a few years back. And it's still ignored...

I could have sworn I remember reading that before.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Eclipse

Quote from: THRAWN on May 04, 2020, 05:13:44 pmThis was discussed a lot, here, when the 39-1 was undergoing it's rewrite a few years back. And it's still ignored...

That tenant goes back to before my time in CAP (99), and it's something I've
brought up a number of times to NHQ to crickets and inconvenient truths.

Mainly, "How do we require field uniforms, etc., for cadets if they are not issued?"

The answers usually circle around the fact that at least technically all the mandated
activities for advancement could be achieved in blues, and that "thankfully most cadets
can work this out by encampment..." which really ignores the bigger question about the mandate.

(The fact that NHQ now has a program to provide first-year students with need most of an ABU
doesn't change the actual issue around the reg or the dichotomy...")



Toad1168

Here in Missouri Wing, we are currently updating the patch and are awaiting approval.  In Missouri, it IS OPTIONAL for wear. 

Unit commanders really need to follow the direction from higher headquarters........
Toad

JC004

This is the "NATIONAL" tab (there also used to be a "NATIONAL STAFF" one).  They are for people assigned to National; not everybody in CAP.  Just as region patches are for people assigned to the respective reason, not everyone in the wings below that region. 

https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/national-civil-air-patrol-arch-patch-color-grey

shuman14

May it's just the Marine Corps part of me that never went away that the concept of "Less is More" has stayed with me.

In the Army, you get a Combat Patch, Campaign Medal, Overseas Service Bars and an Overseas Service Ribbon for one deployment. Actually get shot at and you get a CIB/CMB/CAB too.

The two medal/ribbons say the same thing as the patch and bars.

We have a plethora of unit patches... the Marine Corps, Navy, Coast Guard, Space Force and Air Force have none (well none that they wear). I'd be happier to lose all and just go with the ribbon and medals earned. especially on a combat/working uniform.

I think that's why Wing patches are optional in CAP... less is more.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Eclipse

In the military you also get a paycheck, benefits, and often housing, and a career,
not to mention there are legit safety issues to keeping the uniforms quiet.

In CAP you get patches and badges, and it's all your dime.

I'm no more in favor of the NASCAR look then anyone else, but that's the reasoning.



TheSkyHornet

The less bling, the better.

It's less to tailor, less to worry about being placed incorrectly, and less wear and tear.  It also keeps the uniform from looking like a royal banquet on a daily basis.

I think the fact that CAP patches are colorized also add to the eye sore. Subdued patches aren't so bad on cammies, but the colorful Crayola drawings are brutal.

PHall

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 05, 2020, 08:31:31 pmThe less bling, the better.

It's less to tailor, less to worry about being placed incorrectly, and less wear and tear.  It also keeps the uniform from looking like a royal banquet on a daily basis.

I think the fact that CAP patches are colorized also add to the eye sore. Subdued patches aren't so bad on cammies, but the colorful Crayola drawings are brutal.


We wear the full color patches to comply with AFI 10-2701. Need to be distinguishable from Air Force personnel in low light conditions. The full color patches/tapes and the black boots do the job and don't cost any more too.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: PHall on May 05, 2020, 09:43:23 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 05, 2020, 08:31:31 pmThe less bling, the better.

It's less to tailor, less to worry about being placed incorrectly, and less wear and tear.  It also keeps the uniform from looking like a royal banquet on a daily basis.

I think the fact that CAP patches are colorized also add to the eye sore. Subdued patches aren't so bad on cammies, but the colorful Crayola drawings are brutal.


We wear the full color patches to comply with AFI 10-2701. Need to be distinguishable from Air Force personnel in low light conditions. The full color patches/tapes and the black boots do the job and don't cost any more too.

I get that.

I'm just saying it looks awful visually. I'm personally not a fan. Shouldn't have any bearing on the rest of the CAP universe.

PHall

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 06, 2020, 12:28:42 am
Quote from: PHall on May 05, 2020, 09:43:23 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 05, 2020, 08:31:31 pmThe less bling, the better.

It's less to tailor, less to worry about being placed incorrectly, and less wear and tear.  It also keeps the uniform from looking like a royal banquet on a daily basis.

I think the fact that CAP patches are colorized also add to the eye sore. Subdued patches aren't so bad on cammies, but the colorful Crayola drawings are brutal.


We wear the full color patches to comply with AFI 10-2701. Need to be distinguishable from Air Force personnel in low light conditions. The full color patches/tapes and the black boots do the job and don't cost any more too.

I get that.

I'm just saying it looks awful visually. I'm personally not a fan. Shouldn't have any bearing on the rest of the CAP universe.

You always have to option to wear the Blue BDU which actually looks pretty good with the full color insignia.

GroundHawg


[/quote]
Quote from: PHall on May 06, 2020, 12:42:28 amYou always have to option to wear the Blue BDU which actually looks pretty good with the full color insignia.

That's what I do.

I think the black boots with the ABU is heinous and offends my delicate sensibilities.

I have also found that when taking DHS, FEMA, DES, etc... courses that I am taken seriously instead of being looked at like I am a clown. I blend right in with LEO, fire department personnel, Coasties, and other first responder types

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: PHall on May 06, 2020, 12:42:28 am
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 06, 2020, 12:28:42 am
Quote from: PHall on May 05, 2020, 09:43:23 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on May 05, 2020, 08:31:31 pmThe less bling, the better.

It's less to tailor, less to worry about being placed incorrectly, and less wear and tear.  It also keeps the uniform from looking like a royal banquet on a daily basis.

I think the fact that CAP patches are colorized also add to the eye sore. Subdued patches aren't so bad on cammies, but the colorful Crayola drawings are brutal.


We wear the full color patches to comply with AFI 10-2701. Need to be distinguishable from Air Force personnel in low light conditions. The full color patches/tapes and the black boots do the job and don't cost any more too.

I get that.

I'm just saying it looks awful visually. I'm personally not a fan. Shouldn't have any bearing on the rest of the CAP universe.

You always have to option to wear the Blue BDU which actually looks pretty good with the full color insignia.

No argument there whatsoever.

Blue on blue usually matches quite well.

shuman14

I wonder when CAP switches over to OCP pattern, if they'll keep the black boots or go with coyote... or both.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

DocJekyll

Quote from: shuman14 on May 06, 2020, 02:16:36 pmI wonder when CAP switches over to OCP pattern, if they'll keep the black boots or go with coyote... or both.

Likely will stick to black. There's no real reason to swap unless people stopped making black boots like how ABU's production will begin to fade off. That's not a really likely case though, so black boots will stay. Honestly though they don't look bad with OCP's. I've seen them worn and they're better than ABU's/Black Boots.

Who am I kidding I wear the FDU most of the time anyways.  8)  8)  8)
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


NIN

Quote from: GroundHawg on May 06, 2020, 11:43:50 amI think the black boots with the ABU is heinous and offends my delicate sensibilities.

The only people who seem to notice that "black boots with ABU" is out of place are AF people. And even then, they don't see that first: They see the insignia.

Did you know that the original ABU concept that the USAF was considering (the "more blue, more tiger" pattern) had an 8 point cover (yeeech) and black boots? And people screamed about the "Sage Green" boots at the time of their implementation.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

shuman14

The OCP's are a color that would work with Black, they're kinda close to the old BDUs. I have a footlocker's worth of old brown t-shirts that are nearly the same as the new coyote t-shirts so I'm using them again.

Old olive drab LBE also doesn't look out of place with them either. At my rank, I only carry a pistol any more so an OD belt, Y-harness, canteens holster and ammo pouch is all I really need anymore.

Last range day, that's all I wore and it didn't look out of place at all.

For CAP, I would recommend allowing black, tan, coyote and sage during the transition period that would allow everyone to get their moneys worth out of the boots they already have and push new joins to buy coyote as opposed to any other color.

The Velcro will help with Cadets with growth spurts and rapid promotions so no sewing anymore, I would only authorize sew on tapes and insignia for Senior Members.

I know they make Blue Versions of the ACU style uniforms so I "assume" blue OCP style uniforms will available shortly so the Corporate could change too.

Just talking out loud here...
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

DocJekyll

Quote from: NIN on May 06, 2020, 02:30:26 pm
Quote from: GroundHawg on May 06, 2020, 11:43:50 amI think the black boots with the ABU is heinous and offends my delicate sensibilities.

The only people who seem to notice that "black boots with ABU" is out of place are AF people. And even then, they don't see that first: They see the insignia.

Did you know that the original ABU concept that the USAF was considering (the "more blue, more tiger" pattern) had an 8 point cover (yeeech) and black boots? And people screamed about the "Sage Green" boots at the time of their implementation.

You mean this monstrosity?

Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


shuman14

Quote from: DocJekyll on May 06, 2020, 04:02:31 pmYou mean this monstrosity?


I think I have a Hawaiian Shirt in that pattern!
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

PHall

One reason CAP will probably stick with black boots is cost. Coyote/Tan/Green boots are all in excess of $100.
Availability is another reason. There's a lot more police/fire uniform shops out there selling black boots then there are military clothing sales selling the Coyote/Tan/Green boots.
And we won't even discuss what Scamguard Vanguard would sell them for.

Jester

Quote from: DocJekyll on May 06, 2020, 04:02:31 pm
Quote from: NIN on May 06, 2020, 02:30:26 pm
Quote from: GroundHawg on May 06, 2020, 11:43:50 amI think the black boots with the ABU is heinous and offends my delicate sensibilities.

The only people who seem to notice that "black boots with ABU" is out of place are AF people. And even then, they don't see that first: They see the insignia.

Did you know that the original ABU concept that the USAF was considering (the "more blue, more tiger" pattern) had an 8 point cover (yeeech) and black boots? And people screamed about the "Sage Green" boots at the time of their implementation.

You mean this monstrosity?



I was in tech school when that came out, we were all mortified.  One of our prior-service guys called and arranged a transfer back to the USMCR based on that eyesore (more like the straw that broke the camel's back, but still).

I stumbled on a pair of the pants new with tags at a gun show circa 2009.  The fabric was an even heavier weight than the first-generation ABUs (I didn't think that was even possible).  And they had those godawful little AF symbols in the pattern (more of a ripoff of the USMC to go along with the 8-point cover).  Don't even get me started on the henley-style undershirt with embroidered name.

I don't remember being a huge fan of the boots, but I did appreciate not having to iron and shine anymore.

shuman14

Quote from: PHall on May 06, 2020, 05:09:39 pmOne reason CAP will probably stick with black boots is cost. Coyote/Tan/Green boots are all in excess of $100.
Availability is another reason. There's a lot more police/fire uniform shops out there selling black boots then there are military clothing sales selling the Coyote/Tan/Green boots.
And we won't even discuss what Scamguard Vanguard would sell them for.

Well you do get what you pay for, regardless of color.

I just GTS'ed: Coyote tan boots, and saw numerous styles under $100.00 as well as many more over $100.00. I would assume as the Army, Air Force and Space Force are all using them now, the price will come down accordingly over time.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

UWONGO2

Quote from: NIN on May 06, 2020, 02:30:26 pm
Quote from: GroundHawg on May 06, 2020, 11:43:50 amI think the black boots with the ABU is heinous and offends my delicate sensibilities.

The only people who seem to notice that "black boots with ABU" is out of place are AF people. And even then, they don't see that first: They see the insignia.

Our encampment is an at Army post. One day I'm standing in line for chow with the rest of encampment and half the Army when I hear some soldiers start having an animated discussion on how bad the black boots looked with the ABUs. One of them mentioned something about uniforms being issued, I turned and let them know that as volunteers we have to purchase all of our uniforms out-of-pocket, including the boots.

Suddenly their conversation turned to if they had to buy their own boots, they would get the cheapest available regardless of color. I think I even heard the word "pink" thrown around.

But they definitely notice the boots first. I had a soldier come find me (again at chow) let me know that he thought "one of your kids" was sick in the bathroom. He said he saw the black boots under the stall and assumed he was mine (can't argue with the deductive reasoning).

The interactions we have with the active duty military is always interesting. The post is mostly kids who just got out of basic, so they're all young kids who have no idea what to do with these funny looking uniforms walking around their workspace.

supertigerCH

Quote from: shuman14 on May 06, 2020, 02:16:36 pmI wonder when CAP switches over to OCP pattern, if they'll keep the black boots or go with coyote... or both.

probably one black boot and one coyote boot... to make sure CAP is distinguishable from Air Force

shuman14

Quote from: supertigerCH on May 14, 2020, 05:18:30 pm
Quote from: shuman14 on May 06, 2020, 02:16:36 pmI wonder when CAP switches over to OCP pattern, if they'll keep the black boots or go with coyote... or both.

probably one black boot and one coyote boot... to make sure CAP is distinguishable from Air Force

Giggle, snicker, snicker. :-D
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

1st Lt Thompson

Quote from: supertigerCH on May 14, 2020, 05:18:30 pm
Quote from: shuman14 on May 06, 2020, 02:16:36 pmI wonder when CAP switches over to OCP pattern, if they'll keep the black boots or go with coyote... or both.

probably one black boot and one coyote boot... to make sure CAP is distinguishable from Air Force

Dark blue boots....silver laces to match the name tapes
1st Lt Matt Thompson
Historian, Assistant PAO

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 22 MAY 01 (#11401)

Luis R. Ramos

Or red laces. Blue boots and red laces, CAP colors.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Spam

Solid silver go-go boots... with mag-clamps. And thrusters. "On the bounce, troopers"!

... SPACE FORCE, yo!

Cheers
Spam

ColonelJack

It's not nice to make Diet Coke shoot through my nose like that, Spam ... funny, but not nice.

On the bounce indeed ...

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

shuman14

Quote from: Spam on May 15, 2020, 01:02:44 amSolid silver go-go boots... with mag-clamps. And thrusters. "On the bounce, troopers"!

... SPACE FORCE, yo!

Cheers
Spam



:-P
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

NIN

So many people want to be a door gunner on the space shuttle.

Sheesh, like that's even possible.

Us flight engineers have to get you there first.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spam

Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2020, 08:03:14 pmSo many people want to be a door gunner on the space shuttle.

Sheesh, like that's even possible.

Us flight engineers have to get you there first.

Oh I agree, I agree completely. So many pilots would be absolutely lost without a good FE or Nav...


PHall

Quote from: Spam on May 16, 2020, 12:44:49 am
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2020, 08:03:14 pmSo many people want to be a door gunner on the space shuttle.

Sheesh, like that's even possible.

Us flight engineers have to get you there first.

Oh I agree, I agree completely. So many pilots would be absolutely lost without a good FE or Nav...



She had a Nav, look where it got her.

1st Lt Thompson

Quote from: PHall on May 16, 2020, 01:43:08 am
Quote from: Spam on May 16, 2020, 12:44:49 am
Quote from: NIN on May 15, 2020, 08:03:14 pmSo many people want to be a door gunner on the space shuttle.

Sheesh, like that's even possible.

Us flight engineers have to get you there first.

Oh I agree, I agree completely. So many pilots would be absolutely lost without a good FE or Nav...



She had a Nav, look where it got her.
"without a good FE or Nav....
1st Lt Matt Thompson
Historian, Assistant PAO

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 22 MAY 01 (#11401)