Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 16, 2018, 04:09:40 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO Forum
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2 3  All Print
Author Topic: NCO Forum  (Read 4585 times)
jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« on: October 20, 2018, 03:29:47 AM »

We know that CAP has always recognized NCOs but this is the first time in the history of our organization that we have had an NCO corps with promotion potential. I suggest that we add an NCO forum to the site so that we have a place to gather and give each other advice on how to make this work.
Logged
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 843
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2018, 06:22:42 AM »

We know that CAP has always recognized NCOs but this is the first time in the history of our organization that we have had an NCO corps with promotion potential. I suggest that we add an NCO forum to the site so that we have a place to gather and give each other advice on how to make this work.

It is most definitely NOT “...the first time that we have had an NCO corps with promotion potential.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 356

« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2018, 08:17:02 AM »

This already exists, but not on CAPTalk. Pm me if you’re an NCO and I’ll get you in.
Logged
Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2018, 02:38:36 PM »

We know that CAP has always recognized NCOs but this is the first time in the history of our organization that we have had an NCO corps with promotion potential. I suggest that we add an NCO forum to the site so that we have a place to gather and give each other advice on how to make this work.

All 12 of you really need your own forum?
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2018, 05:10:24 PM »

We know that CAP has always recognized NCOs but this is the first time in the history of our organization that we have had an NCO corps with promotion potential. I suggest that we add an NCO forum to the site so that we have a place to gather and give each other advice on how to make this work.

All 12 of you really need your own forum?

Wait, there's 12 now?  Who's the new guy?
Logged


kcebnaes
Forum Regular

Posts: 115
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2018, 10:02:53 AM »

Well, three of them are in Group as it is!
Logged
Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
Director of Personnel
Group VI Commander
Falling Hare
Recruit

Posts: 16

« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2018, 03:57:16 PM »

Guys, 
 
  Hopefully such a forum would address the problem of expanding such a program and making it effective within a specifically CAP context, right down to the squadron level.  CAP originally had no problem with recruiting enlisted and NCO personnel right off the streets in WW2 and immediately after.  State Defense Forces have been doing this for generations. One of the stated goals of the NCO program is to eventually allow non-prior CAP members to be accepted, so I think that some of the issues to be discussed in such a forum (at least in my view) could be:

  - How to increase numbers?  How about finally allowing non-prior CAP officers to “retrograde” promote into SSgt. and TSgt. positions for now. How about allowing LV.3 (Capt. through Majors) to retrograde to SSgt rank and allow LV.4 (Major to Lt.Col.) to retrograde into TSgt. This would at least fill in vacant positions with members with years of experience specifically in CAP. For the time being SNCO positions would be reserved for prior service only. 

  - For new non-prior seniors just coming into CAP perhaps we could have a “Advanced/Senior Airman” NCO training positions until they could attend a Region NCO school and/or online classes along with a specified TIG?

  - Are any regions prepared to offer an NCO academy for interested CAP non-prior seniors?

  - Could we find a way of granting credit for NCO experience in military schools & academies, state guards, law enforcement, cadet organizations etc.?

  - For those interested, how would we funnel experienced cadets into a senior NCO program when they age out of the cadet program?

  - Can anybody think of anything else?

I support the program every chance I get, but I think some decisive and bold steps are going to have to made to really get it to take off.
Logged
tkelley004
Recruit

Posts: 36
Unit: PCR-WA-015

« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2018, 05:16:03 PM »

As a retired SMSgt, the adult NCO program will never be anything but a "I don't want to be an officer" club, unless CAP undergoes a great culture change in the Officer program.  Unless you change the requirement to be a CAP 2nd Lt  from 21, breathing for 6 months, and an passing a test you can not fail, Being a SSgt has no great appeal.

We already have a great issue with the "duty performance" promotions vs "mission skills" a CFI (a very valuable skill for CAP) gets you Capt bars on day one (with command approval) but to get them as a non pilot (except some of the other mission and professional skills) takes 3 years, 6 months AND a lot of other work to complete Phase III!
 
The key to a strong adult NCO program would be a drastic change to the eligibility for CAP officer grade and not something that would be easy or with out great pain.

What would be some good reasons for me (or a non prior serve CAP member) to exchange bars or oak leafs for stripes? I meet the requirements except time in grade to be a CAP CMSgt, (Level 5) is that promotion and title enough?  but do I then salute and call new guy 2Lt "sir" and have him say .. well Chief, I'm an officer..... ?!??!

I would rather wear stripes, but without great changes to the officer corps, I'll keep my oak leaves.... If I had my way, the NCO program would be phased out, with the option of current NCOs to covert to officer grade up to Lt Col based on PD (your level 5 Chief becomes a Lt Col)..... Future NCO would use the current offered promotions  If your former military E-6 or below, wait the six months and put on a gold bar, E-7 get the gold bar on day one, E-8 its sliver, E-9, congrats Captain.... Our adults are officers....






Logged
Tim Kelley, Lt Col, CAP
Bellingham Composite Squadron
Retired USAF SMSgt
foo
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2018, 05:56:53 PM »

We already have a great issue with the "duty performance" promotions vs "mission skills" a CFI (a very valuable skill for CAP) gets you Capt bars on day one (with command approval) but to get them as a non pilot (except some of the other mission and professional skills) takes 3 years, 6 months AND a lot of other work to complete Phase III!

Perhaps this is just nitpicking but, for the record, it currently takes a minimum of 4 ˝ years and completion of Level 3 to make captain based on duty performance for anyone who joined after (I think August) of 2014. I'm curious to know what "lot of other work" is involved outside of those requirements.

 
Logged
tkelley004
Recruit

Posts: 36
Unit: PCR-WA-015

« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2018, 06:01:49 PM »

Opps! Math error! on the Time in Grade,  the lot of other work is what is required for level 2 and then 3, the SLS, the CLC, conferences,  the tech and senior rating (some tracks have lots of requirements) the holding a staff position...
Logged
Tim Kelley, Lt Col, CAP
Bellingham Composite Squadron
Retired USAF SMSgt
foo
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2018, 06:17:34 PM »

Opps! Math error! on the Time in Grade,  the lot of other work is what is required for level 2 and then 3, the SLS, the CLC, conferences,  the tech and senior rating (some tracks have lots of requirements) the holding a staff position...

Ah gotcha. I misread your post the first time to mean there was a lot of work in addition to completing Level 3.
Logged
Stonewall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,934

« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2018, 07:24:11 PM »

As a retired SMSgt, the adult NCO program will never be anything but a "I don't want to be an officer" club, unless CAP undergoes a great culture change in the Officer program.  Unless you change the requirement to be a CAP 2nd Lt  from 21, breathing for 6 months, and an passing a test you can not fail, Being a SSgt has no great appeal.

We already have a great issue with the "duty performance" promotions vs "mission skills" a CFI (a very valuable skill for CAP) gets you Capt bars on day one (with command approval) but to get them as a non pilot (except some of the other mission and professional skills) takes 3 years, 6 months AND a lot of other work to complete Phase III!
 
The key to a strong adult NCO program would be a drastic change to the eligibility for CAP officer grade and not something that would be easy or with out great pain.

What would be some good reasons for me (or a non prior serve CAP member) to exchange bars or oak leafs for stripes? I meet the requirements except time in grade to be a CAP CMSgt, (Level 5) is that promotion and title enough?  but do I then salute and call new guy 2Lt "sir" and have him say .. well Chief, I'm an officer..... ?!??!

I would rather wear stripes, but without great changes to the officer corps, I'll keep my oak leaves.... If I had my way, the NCO program would be phased out, with the option of current NCOs to covert to officer grade up to Lt Col based on PD (your level 5 Chief becomes a Lt Col)..... Future NCO would use the current offered promotions  If your former military E-6 or below, wait the six months and put on a gold bar, E-7 get the gold bar on day one, E-8 its sliver, E-9, congrats Captain.... Our adults are officers....

As a current (Active ANG) SMSgt pending a promotion to CMSgt any second now, I concur with all of this.  Although I have over 20 years of military service (did time in the Army and Army National Guard) I’ve been a CAP Lt Col longer than I’ve been in the Air Force (ANG). I’ve been in CAP for a LONG time, yet I actually just saw my first CAP NCO (SSgt) in real life this weeeknd. I just don’t see a need for it. In fact, I agree mostly with TKelley’s first sentence more than anything.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 08:47:12 PM by Stonewall » Logged
Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2018, 07:42:29 PM »

Easy solution.

Eliminate all grade structure and adopt a position-based model like the USCG Auxiliary.

Dead equine. Blunt object. Repeat. 
Logged
shuman14
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 972
Unit: NHQ-996

« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2018, 09:42:32 PM »

Easy solution.

Eliminate all grade structure and adopt a position-based model like the USCG Auxiliary.

Dead equine. Blunt object. Repeat.

A certain former member with a fetish for German uniforms suggested that several years.

He also suggested adopting the old USAF Warrant Officer insignia for those not in a position to wear based on the Professional Development Level completed.

For example:

Senior Member - no Grade Insignia

Level One - Warrant Officer - Gold Bar with two Light Blue Enamel Squares

Level Two - Chief Warrant Officer Two - Gold Bar with three Light Blue Enamel Squares

Level Three - Chief Warrant Officer Three - Silver Bar with two Light Blue Enamel Squares

Level Four - Chief Warrant Officer Four - Silver Bar with three Light Blue Enamel Squares

Level Five - Chief Warrant Officer Five - Silver Bar with a Thin Light Blue Enamel Line in the Center

So if you are in an actual position (Commander, Deputy, Staff Officer, etc.) at Squadron, Group, Wing, Region or National Level you would wear an appropriate Grade Insignia for your position. Once you come out of the job, that Insignia comes off and the Grade Insignia for your completed PD level goes back on.

No NCO ranks and no Rank transfers for prior Service Officers. Everyone starts as a Senior Member and everyone progresses via Professional Development only.
Logged
Joseph J. Clune
Major (Promotable), Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2018, 10:48:10 PM »

Based on previous NCO threads on CAPTalk it is obvious that there is an anti-Sergeant sentiment. Thank you to those who reached out in spite of the responses.

I see a lot of negativity about the concept and a lot of people asking why it is necessary. One of the posts mentioned the CFI receiving an appointment as Captain - we know that doctors, attorneys, clergy get the same and rightly so. To me, as a Senior NCO in the military I feel like it is the same thing on a different scale.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2018, 11:02:46 PM »

It's not.
Logged


jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2018, 11:04:44 PM »

It is, actually.
Logged
Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2018, 12:00:48 AM »

Beyond, "because reasons," there's never been a compelling reason to have NCOs in CAP. Especially since there are no "enlisted" members for them to have control over.

Eliminate the grade structure, you eliminate the "reasons" for all.
Logged
jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2018, 12:28:50 AM »

There are no compelling reasons for any rank structure other than the fact that we are an auxiliary of a military branch.
Logged
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2018, 02:09:46 AM »

There are no compelling reasons for any rank structure other than the fact that we are an auxiliary of a military branch.

That's a compelling reason to ditch a rank structure that doesn't jive with how the military works.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO Forum
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.081 seconds with 25 queries.
click here to email me