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November 20, 2018, 01:47:38 AM
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jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« on: October 20, 2018, 03:29:47 AM »

We know that CAP has always recognized NCOs but this is the first time in the history of our organization that we have had an NCO corps with promotion potential. I suggest that we add an NCO forum to the site so that we have a place to gather and give each other advice on how to make this work.
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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 845
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2018, 06:22:42 AM »

We know that CAP has always recognized NCOs but this is the first time in the history of our organization that we have had an NCO corps with promotion potential. I suggest that we add an NCO forum to the site so that we have a place to gather and give each other advice on how to make this work.

It is most definitely NOT “...the first time that we have had an NCO corps with promotion potential.”


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 358

« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2018, 08:17:02 AM »

This already exists, but not on CAPTalk. Pm me if you’re an NCO and I’ll get you in.
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Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 93

« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2018, 02:38:36 PM »

We know that CAP has always recognized NCOs but this is the first time in the history of our organization that we have had an NCO corps with promotion potential. I suggest that we add an NCO forum to the site so that we have a place to gather and give each other advice on how to make this work.

All 12 of you really need your own forum?
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,258

« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2018, 05:10:24 PM »

We know that CAP has always recognized NCOs but this is the first time in the history of our organization that we have had an NCO corps with promotion potential. I suggest that we add an NCO forum to the site so that we have a place to gather and give each other advice on how to make this work.

All 12 of you really need your own forum?

Wait, there's 12 now?  Who's the new guy?
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kcebnaes
Forum Regular

Posts: 115
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2018, 10:02:53 AM »

Well, three of them are in Group as it is!
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
Director of Personnel
Group VI Commander
Falling Hare
Recruit

Posts: 16

« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2018, 03:57:16 PM »

Guys, 
 
  Hopefully such a forum would address the problem of expanding such a program and making it effective within a specifically CAP context, right down to the squadron level.  CAP originally had no problem with recruiting enlisted and NCO personnel right off the streets in WW2 and immediately after.  State Defense Forces have been doing this for generations. One of the stated goals of the NCO program is to eventually allow non-prior CAP members to be accepted, so I think that some of the issues to be discussed in such a forum (at least in my view) could be:

  - How to increase numbers?  How about finally allowing non-prior CAP officers to “retrograde” promote into SSgt. and TSgt. positions for now. How about allowing LV.3 (Capt. through Majors) to retrograde to SSgt rank and allow LV.4 (Major to Lt.Col.) to retrograde into TSgt. This would at least fill in vacant positions with members with years of experience specifically in CAP. For the time being SNCO positions would be reserved for prior service only. 

  - For new non-prior seniors just coming into CAP perhaps we could have a “Advanced/Senior Airman” NCO training positions until they could attend a Region NCO school and/or online classes along with a specified TIG?

  - Are any regions prepared to offer an NCO academy for interested CAP non-prior seniors?

  - Could we find a way of granting credit for NCO experience in military schools & academies, state guards, law enforcement, cadet organizations etc.?

  - For those interested, how would we funnel experienced cadets into a senior NCO program when they age out of the cadet program?

  - Can anybody think of anything else?

I support the program every chance I get, but I think some decisive and bold steps are going to have to made to really get it to take off.
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tkelley004
Recruit

Posts: 36
Unit: PCR-WA-015

« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2018, 05:16:03 PM »

As a retired SMSgt, the adult NCO program will never be anything but a "I don't want to be an officer" club, unless CAP undergoes a great culture change in the Officer program.  Unless you change the requirement to be a CAP 2nd Lt  from 21, breathing for 6 months, and an passing a test you can not fail, Being a SSgt has no great appeal.

We already have a great issue with the "duty performance" promotions vs "mission skills" a CFI (a very valuable skill for CAP) gets you Capt bars on day one (with command approval) but to get them as a non pilot (except some of the other mission and professional skills) takes 3 years, 6 months AND a lot of other work to complete Phase III!
 
The key to a strong adult NCO program would be a drastic change to the eligibility for CAP officer grade and not something that would be easy or with out great pain.

What would be some good reasons for me (or a non prior serve CAP member) to exchange bars or oak leafs for stripes? I meet the requirements except time in grade to be a CAP CMSgt, (Level 5) is that promotion and title enough?  but do I then salute and call new guy 2Lt "sir" and have him say .. well Chief, I'm an officer..... ?!??!

I would rather wear stripes, but without great changes to the officer corps, I'll keep my oak leaves.... If I had my way, the NCO program would be phased out, with the option of current NCOs to covert to officer grade up to Lt Col based on PD (your level 5 Chief becomes a Lt Col)..... Future NCO would use the current offered promotions  If your former military E-6 or below, wait the six months and put on a gold bar, E-7 get the gold bar on day one, E-8 its sliver, E-9, congrats Captain.... Our adults are officers....






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Tim Kelley, Lt Col, CAP
Bellingham Composite Squadron
Retired USAF SMSgt
foo
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2018, 05:56:53 PM »

We already have a great issue with the "duty performance" promotions vs "mission skills" a CFI (a very valuable skill for CAP) gets you Capt bars on day one (with command approval) but to get them as a non pilot (except some of the other mission and professional skills) takes 3 years, 6 months AND a lot of other work to complete Phase III!

Perhaps this is just nitpicking but, for the record, it currently takes a minimum of 4 ˝ years and completion of Level 3 to make captain based on duty performance for anyone who joined after (I think August) of 2014. I'm curious to know what "lot of other work" is involved outside of those requirements.

 
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tkelley004
Recruit

Posts: 36
Unit: PCR-WA-015

« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2018, 06:01:49 PM »

Opps! Math error! on the Time in Grade,  the lot of other work is what is required for level 2 and then 3, the SLS, the CLC, conferences,  the tech and senior rating (some tracks have lots of requirements) the holding a staff position...
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Tim Kelley, Lt Col, CAP
Bellingham Composite Squadron
Retired USAF SMSgt
foo
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2018, 06:17:34 PM »

Opps! Math error! on the Time in Grade,  the lot of other work is what is required for level 2 and then 3, the SLS, the CLC, conferences,  the tech and senior rating (some tracks have lots of requirements) the holding a staff position...

Ah gotcha. I misread your post the first time to mean there was a lot of work in addition to completing Level 3.
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Stonewall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,934

« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2018, 07:24:11 PM »

As a retired SMSgt, the adult NCO program will never be anything but a "I don't want to be an officer" club, unless CAP undergoes a great culture change in the Officer program.  Unless you change the requirement to be a CAP 2nd Lt  from 21, breathing for 6 months, and an passing a test you can not fail, Being a SSgt has no great appeal.

We already have a great issue with the "duty performance" promotions vs "mission skills" a CFI (a very valuable skill for CAP) gets you Capt bars on day one (with command approval) but to get them as a non pilot (except some of the other mission and professional skills) takes 3 years, 6 months AND a lot of other work to complete Phase III!
 
The key to a strong adult NCO program would be a drastic change to the eligibility for CAP officer grade and not something that would be easy or with out great pain.

What would be some good reasons for me (or a non prior serve CAP member) to exchange bars or oak leafs for stripes? I meet the requirements except time in grade to be a CAP CMSgt, (Level 5) is that promotion and title enough?  but do I then salute and call new guy 2Lt "sir" and have him say .. well Chief, I'm an officer..... ?!??!

I would rather wear stripes, but without great changes to the officer corps, I'll keep my oak leaves.... If I had my way, the NCO program would be phased out, with the option of current NCOs to covert to officer grade up to Lt Col based on PD (your level 5 Chief becomes a Lt Col)..... Future NCO would use the current offered promotions  If your former military E-6 or below, wait the six months and put on a gold bar, E-7 get the gold bar on day one, E-8 its sliver, E-9, congrats Captain.... Our adults are officers....

As a current (Active ANG) SMSgt pending a promotion to CMSgt any second now, I concur with all of this.  Although I have over 20 years of military service (did time in the Army and Army National Guard) I’ve been a CAP Lt Col longer than I’ve been in the Air Force (ANG). I’ve been in CAP for a LONG time, yet I actually just saw my first CAP NCO (SSgt) in real life this weeeknd. I just don’t see a need for it. In fact, I agree mostly with TKelley’s first sentence more than anything.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 08:47:12 PM by Stonewall » Logged
Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 93

« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2018, 07:42:29 PM »

Easy solution.

Eliminate all grade structure and adopt a position-based model like the USCG Auxiliary.

Dead equine. Blunt object. Repeat. 
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shuman14
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 975
Unit: NHQ-996

« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2018, 09:42:32 PM »

Easy solution.

Eliminate all grade structure and adopt a position-based model like the USCG Auxiliary.

Dead equine. Blunt object. Repeat.

A certain former member with a fetish for German uniforms suggested that several years.

He also suggested adopting the old USAF Warrant Officer insignia for those not in a position to wear based on the Professional Development Level completed.

For example:

Senior Member - no Grade Insignia

Level One - Warrant Officer - Gold Bar with two Light Blue Enamel Squares

Level Two - Chief Warrant Officer Two - Gold Bar with three Light Blue Enamel Squares

Level Three - Chief Warrant Officer Three - Silver Bar with two Light Blue Enamel Squares

Level Four - Chief Warrant Officer Four - Silver Bar with three Light Blue Enamel Squares

Level Five - Chief Warrant Officer Five - Silver Bar with a Thin Light Blue Enamel Line in the Center

So if you are in an actual position (Commander, Deputy, Staff Officer, etc.) at Squadron, Group, Wing, Region or National Level you would wear an appropriate Grade Insignia for your position. Once you come out of the job, that Insignia comes off and the Grade Insignia for your completed PD level goes back on.

No NCO ranks and no Rank transfers for prior Service Officers. Everyone starts as a Senior Member and everyone progresses via Professional Development only.
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Joseph J. Clune
Major (Promotable), Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2018, 10:48:10 PM »

Based on previous NCO threads on CAPTalk it is obvious that there is an anti-Sergeant sentiment. Thank you to those who reached out in spite of the responses.

I see a lot of negativity about the concept and a lot of people asking why it is necessary. One of the posts mentioned the CFI receiving an appointment as Captain - we know that doctors, attorneys, clergy get the same and rightly so. To me, as a Senior NCO in the military I feel like it is the same thing on a different scale.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,258

« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2018, 11:02:46 PM »

It's not.
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jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2018, 11:04:44 PM »

It is, actually.
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Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 93

« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2018, 12:00:48 AM »

Beyond, "because reasons," there's never been a compelling reason to have NCOs in CAP. Especially since there are no "enlisted" members for them to have control over.

Eliminate the grade structure, you eliminate the "reasons" for all.
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jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2018, 12:28:50 AM »

There are no compelling reasons for any rank structure other than the fact that we are an auxiliary of a military branch.
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2018, 02:09:46 AM »

There are no compelling reasons for any rank structure other than the fact that we are an auxiliary of a military branch.

That's a compelling reason to ditch a rank structure that doesn't jive with how the military works.
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LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,845
Unit: Earth

« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2018, 08:50:10 AM »

there's never been a compelling reason to have NCOs in CAP.

Except for that time when we actually had enlisted members.  We actually had both enlisted and NCO for regular “off the street” members.  People like radio technicians, guard personnel, base support staff, and others were enlisted.  Commanders, pilots, and some staff (such as wing staff) were officers.

I say we just convert all CAP officers to NCOs.  Commanders and deputy commanders may remain officer while serving in that position.  SM without grade become Airmen.  All other staff remain NCOs.  Lt Col’s become SMSgt, Maj become MSgt, Capt become TSgt, 1st Lt become SSgt, and 2d Lt become SrA (I know not an NCO).  CMSgt is reserved for special appointment, such as specific NHQ staff or former commanders. 
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Falling Hare
Recruit

Posts: 16

« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2018, 10:39:31 AM »

Actually, this sounds very reasonable.  Officers should be highly trained, professional and rare.  I am not "anti-officer", I just think having so many affects our credibility, and doesn't really give us a realistic command structure.

An all-enlisted/ NCO structure would give us a functioning structure more like ES and law enforcement, and would improve our image with the general public, regular services and especially the Air Force.

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Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,658

« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2018, 10:42:21 AM »

An all-enlisted/ NCO structure would give us a functioning structure more like ES and law enforcement, and would improve our image with the general public, regular services and especially the Air Force.

Don’t forget that the chiefs of 20-officer departments often wear multiple stars. Following that analogy, our squadron commanders should be 4-star generals :P.



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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,933
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2018, 10:42:37 AM »

Several years ago, when the CAP Command Chief Eldridge announced that there was a "New" NCO program, I was excited. But it took almost 5 years before CAPR 35-5 and CAPM 20-1 were updated to reflect the duties and promotion requirements of the NCO Corps. We still don't have a separate training courses to differentiate from the Officer training. After 28 years as an Lt Col, I see no advantage to changing from one non-promotable grade to another non-promotable grade (E-8). Not to mention the extremely high cost of grade insignia, new enlisted jacket, cap, and mess dress.

To have an effective NCO program, CAP as a whole has to have a complete program with clear deliniation between Officer and NCO roles, an accession program for bringing in non-prior service members as enlisted, and a specific training program. Otherwise it's assinine to have a program where trained military professionals are subordinate to the newest members of this organization.


CAP erred greatly in bringing out the NCO program before it was viable with Regulations in print, traiing programs, leadership support, and a lot of lead time that has now been converted to lag time (5 years and counting).
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,316

« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2018, 11:45:48 AM »

That's because the NCO program was one National Commander's "thing". The National Commander's who have succeeded him have not felt the same.
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MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,933
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2018, 01:00:50 PM »

That's because the NCO program was one National Commander's "thing". The National Commander's who have succeeded him have not felt the same.


I knew that and the following Commanders kept it alive. But despite that the mentioned problems still exist.
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,316

« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2018, 02:08:47 PM »

That's because the NCO program was one National Commander's "thing". The National Commander's who have succeeded him have not felt the same.


I knew that and the following Commanders kept it alive. But despite that the mentioned problems still exist.

It may be "alive", but it's on life support. They haven't killed it, but they haven't done anything to help it either. A little benign neglect.
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2018, 02:40:05 PM »

There is a big push right now to re-evaluate all of our professional development programs. They have a ton of working groups running at the national level on a variety of topics. I have no idea if they are working on something separate for NCOs or if they've even identified why a NCOs training would be different than any other volunteer, but I do know these types of projects take a *ton* of time.
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,591
Unit: Classified

« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2018, 02:54:07 PM »

There is a big push right now to re-evaluate all of our professional development programs. They have a ton of working groups running at the national level on a variety of topics. I have no idea if they are working on something separate for NCOs or if they've even identified why a NCOs training would be different than any other volunteer, but I do know these types of projects take a *ton* of time.

On this there has been 5+ years of committee and working groups.  Time on this could be better spent on other projects.
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2018, 05:46:50 PM »

On this there has been 5+ years of committee and working groups.  Time on this could be better spent on other projects.

Fair point and I should have been more specific. Since our latest national commander came into office, he started a number of working groups, one of which is a complete evaluation and update to our professional development program, something that has been needed for many, many years. All of the groups are moving at typical CAP speed, so like I said, these projects will take a very long time to accomplish (that's not a dig, it's a reality). Perhaps those that more closely follow the inner workings of NHQ can comment on if the PD working group is breaking it out as NCO/Officer or if we're all being treated as the same type of volunteer.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,258

« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2018, 06:05:43 PM »

All the committees, working groups, and mental gymnastics will not change the fact that without a
wholesale reboot, one which is likely to cause much more harm then good, there is no reason or
function to try and shoe-horn an "enlisted" structure into an organizaiton which already has too many fiefdoms
and "special classes", and can't even fulfill its manning tables, let alone its mission mandates.

"But...but...officers are broken too...", blah blah.

Another instance of the "Flat Tire Axiom".

In this case, you don't fix a flat tire by nailing an additional flat tire to the side of the car.
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Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 93

« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2018, 06:17:13 PM »

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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,307

« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2018, 06:44:21 PM »


... without a wholesale reboot

I'm thinking full scale reboot going back to the Congressional Charter. Might be time for a rewrite. We aren't looking for submarines anymore.

If I remember seeing the numbers correctly, in 2017, only 2.8% of the airplane flying hours were on actual SAR missions. We spend a heck of a lot more time working with FEMA and other such non-military type organizations, that maybe its time to start looking at their structure.

Yes, to go non-military would mean a huge loss of membership, but would be temporary, as recruitment would be easier with newer generations of volunteers.

(Heading for the cave. Standing by for incoming).
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,258

« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2018, 07:09:10 PM »

If I remember seeing the numbers correctly, in 2017, only 2.8% of the airplane flying hours were on actual SAR missions.

The majority of the flying supports the other missions of CAP, irregardless of the paramilitary nature of the organisation, though
much of it is dependent on that same structure and affiliation.

There is no CAP without the Air Force.
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sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,214

« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2018, 07:34:31 PM »

If I remember seeing the numbers correctly, in 2017, only 2.8% of the airplane flying hours were on actual SAR missions. We spend a heck of a lot more time working with FEMA and other such non-military type organizations, that maybe its time to start looking at their structure.
The actual numbers, from the presentation at the summer meeting:

FY 17
DSCA/DR  = 1,600 hours  SAR = 1,607 hours. Total AFAM hours = 61,470  so both SAR and the disaster flying were equal at 2.6%.

FY 18 (through August 15)
DSCA/DR = 911 hrs,  SAR = 1,403 hrs  (the DR hours certainly picked up once the hurricanes started)

Bottom line, as Eclipse said, is that flying for "non-military types" isn't where the hours and money are. You can get the numbers yourself here: https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/DO01__Whats_New_in_Operations_69BB9E928BED7.pdf

Mike
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Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,658

« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2018, 08:42:25 PM »

If I remember seeing the numbers correctly, in 2017, only 2.8% of the airplane flying hours were on actual SAR missions. We spend a heck of a lot more time working with FEMA and other such non-military type organizations, that maybe its time to start looking at their structure.
The actual numbers, from the presentation at the summer meeting:

FY 17
DSCA/DR  = 1,600 hours  SAR = 1,607 hours. Total AFAM hours = 61,470  so both SAR and the disaster flying were equal at 2.6%.

FY 18 (through August 15)
DSCA/DR = 911 hrs,  SAR = 1,403 hrs  (the DR hours certainly picked up once the hurricanes started)

Bottom line, as Eclipse said, is that flying for "non-military types" isn't where the hours and money are. You can get the numbers yourself here: https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/DO01__Whats_New_in_Operations_69BB9E928BED7.pdf

Mike

I’d bet Ma Blue’s numbers (percentage wise) look really similar to that, especially for combat aircraft. My guess they fly a lot more training sorties than combat sorties when guard and reserve are factored in.

And etodd, I’m not sure how recruiting magically gets easier if rank goes away. It might not decrease it, but increase it just because of that? Doubt it.


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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Stonewall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,934

« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2018, 09:26:09 PM »

The coolest thing about CAP is if you don't like it, you don't have to do it. I'm not a fan of the NCO program, so I choose not to go that route. If you're against wearing military style uniforms, go for the polo option. If you're not a fan of the officer rank structure, simply avoid it.  Or, I guess we could rip any and all aspects of CAP apart and contribute absolutely nothing. 

The fact is, the officer rank structure is what it is, like it or not. The NCO program doesn't seem to be very stable, so it'll either succeed or fail, but it's kind of like politics, don't push on me or others. Offer the options and let people choose.

I just spent the weekend at a wing event. Almost 100 people of all shapes, sizes, grooming, and every uniform option imaginable, even some I haven't seen before. You know what? Who cares? If someone didn't like the fact that I was wearing ABUs, I couldn't tell. Or if someone was a rank hater, no one said a word. People flew, talked on radios, attended classes, and ate a lot of donuts....like A LOT.  All good, all fun, and we accomplished a lot.

I just don't understand why people tend to waste their time and energy bashing a program or process no one is forcing them to partake in.

Semper Vi.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,307

« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2018, 10:15:47 PM »

The coolest thing about CAP is if you don't like it, you don't have to do it. I'm not a fan of the NCO program, so I choose not to go that route. If you're against wearing military style uniforms, go for the polo option.

^^^ This. Yes, please. If the "uniform police" would agree with that, everything would be so much happier. But alas, there are always those who want to gripe at others for feeling differently. If we could just weed those folks out.  :)
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2018, 03:19:27 AM »

and ate a lot of donuts....like A LOT.

I want to join your wing. We never have donuts :'(
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jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2018, 08:52:42 PM »

I just don't understand why people tend to waste their time and energy bashing a program or process no one is forcing them to partake in.

I wish that more people in this forum would take this approach when a question is raised. All I asked was if there was a forum available, not whether or not each person here agreed with the program.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,258

« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2018, 09:03:42 PM »

I just don't understand why people tend to waste their time and energy bashing a program or process no one is forcing them to partake in.

I wish that more people in this forum would take this approach when a question is raised. All I asked was if there was a forum available, not whether or not each person here agreed with the program.

Actually, you didn't ask if there was a forum, you suggested adding one.

((*snip*)) I suggest that we add an NCO forum to the site so that we have a place to gather and give each other advice on how to make this work.
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jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2018, 09:10:24 PM »

I just don't understand why people tend to waste their time and energy bashing a program or process no one is forcing them to partake in.

I wish that more people in this forum would take this approach when a question is raised. All I asked was if there was a forum available, not whether or not each person here agreed with the program.

Actually, you didn't ask if there was a forum, you suggested adding one.

((*snip*)) I suggest that we add an NCO forum to the site so that we have a place to gather and give each other advice on how to make this work.

Good catch. Based on the response I'm going to assume that adding one would be out of the question, therefore none would be available.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,533

« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2018, 09:49:03 AM »

I just don't understand why people tend to waste their time and energy bashing a program or process no one is forcing them to partake in.

I wish that more people in this forum would take this approach when a question is raised. All I asked was if there was a forum available, not whether or not each person here agreed with the program.

Actually, you didn't ask if there was a forum, you suggested adding one.

((*snip*)) I suggest that we add an NCO forum to the site so that we have a place to gather and give each other advice on how to make this work.

Good catch. Based on the response I'm going to assume that adding one would be out of the question, therefore none would be available.


There already is one. Non-NCOs aren't in it.

Are you an NCO? If not, why do you need access to an NCO forum?

If so, PM Jester before he goes below the hard deck.

This already exists, but not on CAPTalk. Pm me if you’re an NCO and I’ll get you in.
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CAP_truth
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Posts: 254

« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2018, 07:11:10 PM »

NCOs have been part of CAP since 1941. We need a structured enlisted program within CAP. We should also expand the fight officer to include members over 21 and mission rated promotions. Enlisted should be a separate membership class with lower membership dues, while increased education requirements for officer to include an associate degrees or higher.
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Cadet CoP
Wilson
abdsp51
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« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2018, 07:25:10 PM »

NCOs have been part of CAP since 1941. We need a structured enlisted program within CAP. We should also expand the fight officer to include members over 21 and mission rated promotions. Enlisted should be a separate membership class with lower membership dues, while increased education requirements for officer to include an associate degrees or higher.

No we don't.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2018, 07:29:02 PM »

What does the existence of an NCO forum or lack of existence of an NCO forum has to do with the need of an NCO program? Guys, stay focused with the OP question! Limit all comments on this thread to an NCO forum!


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Dwight Dutton
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« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2018, 07:36:03 PM »

NCOs have been part of CAP since 1941. We need a structured enlisted program within CAP. We should also expand the fight officer to include members over 21 and mission rated promotions. Enlisted should be a separate membership class with lower membership dues, while increased education requirements for officer to include an associate degrees or higher.

You want to make it like the REAL USAF?  Double the dues for officers and make enlisted membership free, or like $10 a year.  (Flight Officers would be considered enlisted)

You would have to grandfather every existing officer at their current grade, but any promotion would put them in the new system.  The officer / enlisted ratio would balance out rather quickly, but I'm guessing National would get just as much in Dues.
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Fubar
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Posts: 737

« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2018, 09:47:31 PM »

NCOs have been part of CAP since 1941. We need a structured enlisted program within CAP. We should also expand the fight officer to include members over 21 and mission rated promotions. Enlisted should be a separate membership class with lower membership dues, while increased education requirements for officer to include an associate degrees or higher.

Uh, no.
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jb512
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« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2018, 02:00:46 AM »

What does the existence of an NCO forum or lack of existence of an NCO forum has to do with the need of an NCO program? Guys, stay focused with the OP question! Limit all comments on this thread to an NCO forum!

Thank you.
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jb512
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« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2018, 02:55:22 AM »

My recent posts have been labeled as "snark" so I will try to be more civil and precise.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 03:00:23 AM by jb512 » Logged
Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2018, 05:47:20 AM »

NCOs have been part of CAP since 1941.

Not really. The NCO ranks were established in 1942. They were abolished in 1972, then resurrected in 1985 under different terms, including the requirement to have earned them in military service.

The fact that CAP eliminated NCO grades after 30 years is significant. It was done because no positions were identified in CAP which actually required NCOs to perform them. Also, dropping them made things like billeting and club use easier on USAF and other military/naval bases.

The fact that CAP survived 13 years without them, barely missing them, is also significant.

Doubly significant is the fact that they were only brought back to serve the personal preferences of a small part of the membership.

So, while CAP had NCOs starting in 1942  and has them now is not the same thing saying that “NCOs have been part of CAP since 1941.” That 13 year gap has to be considered and acknowledged and not glossed over as it frequently is.


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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,716

« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2018, 10:10:52 AM »

Do not coopt other's thread. If you want to discuss the importance of NCOs in CAP, open your own thread. It will be easier to find, and easier to understand its purpose(s)! 

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PHall
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« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2018, 10:53:24 AM »

Do not coopt other's thread. If you want to discuss the importance of NCOs in CAP, open your own thread. It will be easier to find, and easier to understand its purpose(s)!

Relax Luis, it's only an internet post.
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Falling Hare
Recruit

Posts: 16

« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2018, 04:25:16 PM »

I do hope that the "closed" NCO forum can get a lot of work done. 

--Be sure and give us regular reports of the the progress and activities of the program.

--Be open and above-board about problems and conflicts encountered.

--Above all avoid "group think".  Don't be afraid to solicit input and ideas from non-NCO members from CAP and other organizations.

Best of luck to all involved.

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Fubar
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Posts: 737

« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2018, 03:52:24 AM »

The NCO ranks were established in 1942. They were abolished in 1972, then resurrected in 1985 under different terms, including the requirement to have earned them in military service.

I found your post very interesting. Thanks for the history lesson!
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2018, 02:49:03 AM »

The NCO ranks were established in 1942. They were abolished in 1972, then resurrected in 1985 under different terms, including the requirement to have earned them in military service.

I found your post very interesting. Thanks for the history lesson!

Thanks for the thanks! What’s a “history lesson” for some is simply others remembering back to what seems like months rather than years!


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Stonewall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,934

« Reply #56 on: October 29, 2018, 06:04:28 PM »

For those interested, Breaking Ranks has released their fourth podcast episode with our very own Command Chief.

https://www.facebook.com/888361988016586/posts/1006241116228672/
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #57 on: October 29, 2018, 11:47:39 PM »

Let me know when Stonewall gets interviewed, then I'll give it a listen  8)
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Stonewall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

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« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2018, 08:15:48 PM »

Let me know when Stonewall gets interviewed, then I'll give it a listen  8)

Pretty sure no one wants to hear what I have to say.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,533

« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2018, 01:45:26 PM »

Let me know when Stonewall gets interviewed, then I'll give it a listen  8)

Pretty sure no one wants to hear what I have to say.

*raises hand*
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