Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 16, 2018, 04:00:10 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO Forum
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All Print
Author Topic: NCO Forum  (Read 4584 times)
LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,843
Unit: Earth

« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2018, 08:50:10 AM »

there's never been a compelling reason to have NCOs in CAP.

Except for that time when we actually had enlisted members.  We actually had both enlisted and NCO for regular “off the street” members.  People like radio technicians, guard personnel, base support staff, and others were enlisted.  Commanders, pilots, and some staff (such as wing staff) were officers.

I say we just convert all CAP officers to NCOs.  Commanders and deputy commanders may remain officer while serving in that position.  SM without grade become Airmen.  All other staff remain NCOs.  Lt Col’s become SMSgt, Maj become MSgt, Capt become TSgt, 1st Lt become SSgt, and 2d Lt become SrA (I know not an NCO).  CMSgt is reserved for special appointment, such as specific NHQ staff or former commanders. 
Logged
Falling Hare
Recruit

Posts: 16

« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2018, 10:39:31 AM »

Actually, this sounds very reasonable.  Officers should be highly trained, professional and rare.  I am not "anti-officer", I just think having so many affects our credibility, and doesn't really give us a realistic command structure.

An all-enlisted/ NCO structure would give us a functioning structure more like ES and law enforcement, and would improve our image with the general public, regular services and especially the Air Force.

Logged
Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,654

« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2018, 10:42:21 AM »

An all-enlisted/ NCO structure would give us a functioning structure more like ES and law enforcement, and would improve our image with the general public, regular services and especially the Air Force.

Don’t forget that the chiefs of 20-officer departments often wear multiple stars. Following that analogy, our squadron commanders should be 4-star generals :P.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged
The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,931
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2018, 10:42:37 AM »

Several years ago, when the CAP Command Chief Eldridge announced that there was a "New" NCO program, I was excited. But it took almost 5 years before CAPR 35-5 and CAPM 20-1 were updated to reflect the duties and promotion requirements of the NCO Corps. We still don't have a separate training courses to differentiate from the Officer training. After 28 years as an Lt Col, I see no advantage to changing from one non-promotable grade to another non-promotable grade (E-8). Not to mention the extremely high cost of grade insignia, new enlisted jacket, cap, and mess dress.

To have an effective NCO program, CAP as a whole has to have a complete program with clear deliniation between Officer and NCO roles, an accession program for bringing in non-prior service members as enlisted, and a specific training program. Otherwise it's assinine to have a program where trained military professionals are subordinate to the newest members of this organization.


CAP erred greatly in bringing out the NCO program before it was viable with Regulations in print, traiing programs, leadership support, and a lot of lead time that has now been converted to lag time (5 years and counting).
Logged
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,314

« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2018, 11:45:48 AM »

That's because the NCO program was one National Commander's "thing". The National Commander's who have succeeded him have not felt the same.
Logged
MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,931
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2018, 01:00:50 PM »

That's because the NCO program was one National Commander's "thing". The National Commander's who have succeeded him have not felt the same.


I knew that and the following Commanders kept it alive. But despite that the mentioned problems still exist.
Logged
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,314

« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2018, 02:08:47 PM »

That's because the NCO program was one National Commander's "thing". The National Commander's who have succeeded him have not felt the same.


I knew that and the following Commanders kept it alive. But despite that the mentioned problems still exist.

It may be "alive", but it's on life support. They haven't killed it, but they haven't done anything to help it either. A little benign neglect.
Logged
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2018, 02:40:05 PM »

There is a big push right now to re-evaluate all of our professional development programs. They have a ton of working groups running at the national level on a variety of topics. I have no idea if they are working on something separate for NCOs or if they've even identified why a NCOs training would be different than any other volunteer, but I do know these types of projects take a *ton* of time.
Logged
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,591
Unit: Classified

« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2018, 02:54:07 PM »

There is a big push right now to re-evaluate all of our professional development programs. They have a ton of working groups running at the national level on a variety of topics. I have no idea if they are working on something separate for NCOs or if they've even identified why a NCOs training would be different than any other volunteer, but I do know these types of projects take a *ton* of time.

On this there has been 5+ years of committee and working groups.  Time on this could be better spent on other projects.
Logged
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2018, 05:46:50 PM »

On this there has been 5+ years of committee and working groups.  Time on this could be better spent on other projects.

Fair point and I should have been more specific. Since our latest national commander came into office, he started a number of working groups, one of which is a complete evaluation and update to our professional development program, something that has been needed for many, many years. All of the groups are moving at typical CAP speed, so like I said, these projects will take a very long time to accomplish (that's not a dig, it's a reality). Perhaps those that more closely follow the inner workings of NHQ can comment on if the PD working group is breaking it out as NCO/Officer or if we're all being treated as the same type of volunteer.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2018, 06:05:43 PM »

All the committees, working groups, and mental gymnastics will not change the fact that without a
wholesale reboot, one which is likely to cause much more harm then good, there is no reason or
function to try and shoe-horn an "enlisted" structure into an organizaiton which already has too many fiefdoms
and "special classes", and can't even fulfill its manning tables, let alone its mission mandates.

"But...but...officers are broken too...", blah blah.

Another instance of the "Flat Tire Axiom".

In this case, you don't fix a flat tire by nailing an additional flat tire to the side of the car.
Logged


Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2018, 06:17:13 PM »

Logged
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,304

« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2018, 06:44:21 PM »


... without a wholesale reboot

I'm thinking full scale reboot going back to the Congressional Charter. Might be time for a rewrite. We aren't looking for submarines anymore.

If I remember seeing the numbers correctly, in 2017, only 2.8% of the airplane flying hours were on actual SAR missions. We spend a heck of a lot more time working with FEMA and other such non-military type organizations, that maybe its time to start looking at their structure.

Yes, to go non-military would mean a huge loss of membership, but would be temporary, as recruitment would be easier with newer generations of volunteers.

(Heading for the cave. Standing by for incoming).
Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2018, 07:09:10 PM »

If I remember seeing the numbers correctly, in 2017, only 2.8% of the airplane flying hours were on actual SAR missions.

The majority of the flying supports the other missions of CAP, irregardless of the paramilitary nature of the organisation, though
much of it is dependent on that same structure and affiliation.

There is no CAP without the Air Force.
Logged


sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,212

« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2018, 07:34:31 PM »

If I remember seeing the numbers correctly, in 2017, only 2.8% of the airplane flying hours were on actual SAR missions. We spend a heck of a lot more time working with FEMA and other such non-military type organizations, that maybe its time to start looking at their structure.
The actual numbers, from the presentation at the summer meeting:

FY 17
DSCA/DR  = 1,600 hours  SAR = 1,607 hours. Total AFAM hours = 61,470  so both SAR and the disaster flying were equal at 2.6%.

FY 18 (through August 15)
DSCA/DR = 911 hrs,  SAR = 1,403 hrs  (the DR hours certainly picked up once the hurricanes started)

Bottom line, as Eclipse said, is that flying for "non-military types" isn't where the hours and money are. You can get the numbers yourself here: https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/DO01__Whats_New_in_Operations_69BB9E928BED7.pdf

Mike
Logged
Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,654

« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2018, 08:42:25 PM »

If I remember seeing the numbers correctly, in 2017, only 2.8% of the airplane flying hours were on actual SAR missions. We spend a heck of a lot more time working with FEMA and other such non-military type organizations, that maybe its time to start looking at their structure.
The actual numbers, from the presentation at the summer meeting:

FY 17
DSCA/DR  = 1,600 hours  SAR = 1,607 hours. Total AFAM hours = 61,470  so both SAR and the disaster flying were equal at 2.6%.

FY 18 (through August 15)
DSCA/DR = 911 hrs,  SAR = 1,403 hrs  (the DR hours certainly picked up once the hurricanes started)

Bottom line, as Eclipse said, is that flying for "non-military types" isn't where the hours and money are. You can get the numbers yourself here: https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/DO01__Whats_New_in_Operations_69BB9E928BED7.pdf

Mike

I’d bet Ma Blue’s numbers (percentage wise) look really similar to that, especially for combat aircraft. My guess they fly a lot more training sorties than combat sorties when guard and reserve are factored in.

And etodd, I’m not sure how recruiting magically gets easier if rank goes away. It might not decrease it, but increase it just because of that? Doubt it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged
The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Stonewall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,934

« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2018, 09:26:09 PM »

The coolest thing about CAP is if you don't like it, you don't have to do it. I'm not a fan of the NCO program, so I choose not to go that route. If you're against wearing military style uniforms, go for the polo option. If you're not a fan of the officer rank structure, simply avoid it.  Or, I guess we could rip any and all aspects of CAP apart and contribute absolutely nothing. 

The fact is, the officer rank structure is what it is, like it or not. The NCO program doesn't seem to be very stable, so it'll either succeed or fail, but it's kind of like politics, don't push on me or others. Offer the options and let people choose.

I just spent the weekend at a wing event. Almost 100 people of all shapes, sizes, grooming, and every uniform option imaginable, even some I haven't seen before. You know what? Who cares? If someone didn't like the fact that I was wearing ABUs, I couldn't tell. Or if someone was a rank hater, no one said a word. People flew, talked on radios, attended classes, and ate a lot of donuts....like A LOT.  All good, all fun, and we accomplished a lot.

I just don't understand why people tend to waste their time and energy bashing a program or process no one is forcing them to partake in.

Semper Vi.
Logged
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,304

« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2018, 10:15:47 PM »

The coolest thing about CAP is if you don't like it, you don't have to do it. I'm not a fan of the NCO program, so I choose not to go that route. If you're against wearing military style uniforms, go for the polo option.

^^^ This. Yes, please. If the "uniform police" would agree with that, everything would be so much happier. But alas, there are always those who want to gripe at others for feeling differently. If we could just weed those folks out.  :)
Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2018, 03:19:27 AM »

and ate a lot of donuts....like A LOT.

I want to join your wing. We never have donuts :'(
Logged
jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2018, 08:52:42 PM »

I just don't understand why people tend to waste their time and energy bashing a program or process no one is forcing them to partake in.

I wish that more people in this forum would take this approach when a question is raised. All I asked was if there was a forum available, not whether or not each person here agreed with the program.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO Forum
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.078 seconds with 25 queries.
click here to email me