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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
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Author Topic: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...  (Read 32100 times)
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 689

« Reply #260 on: May 24, 2018, 04:25:16 AM »

If the regulations state the conditions under which the uniform is or is not worn, that should be upheld.

I have a question. Is table 1-1 in CAPM 39-1 what's required for wear for specific activities, or just guidelines designed to show the equivalency between USAF-style and corporate uniforms? Because interesting to me, they don't list the Corporate Working Uniform for squadron meetings (nearly 100% of our wing wears polo shirts to their squadron meetings).

I don't see any shall, will, or musts in there (and the chart even contradicts itself by saying the CWU can be worn if the Class B or Aviator would be worn, but then doesn't list either of those two as uniforms worn as working uniforms). I do however see usually and commander's direction which to me means the chart is more about what USAF-Style uniform matches a corporate uniform, and not a regulatory demand to wear certain uniforms for certain things.
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JK657
Seasoned Member

Posts: 208

« Reply #261 on: May 31, 2018, 08:27:10 AM »

I wonder if/when CAP gets OCP will the black boot requirement stay or will it be the coyote brown?
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,664

« Reply #262 on: May 31, 2018, 09:15:01 AM »

I am going to ask the Uniform Committee to add the following to the next CAPM 39-1.

Wear the CWU to all squadron meetings.
Wear the Polo to Wing meetings.
Wear the Dress Uniform every time you visit the State capital during a CAP activity.
Wear the Dress Uniform when conducting external AE.
Wear CDU or CWU when conducting internal AE...

Seriously, do we want to include all possible instances what uniforms to wear to all possible activities on a manual?

Use the table as a guideline, if you cannot determine that on your own ask your commander to designate the UOD.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,395

« Reply #263 on: May 31, 2018, 09:23:01 AM »

If the regulations state the conditions under which the uniform is or is not worn, that should be upheld.

I have a question. Is table 1-1 in CAPM 39-1 what's required for wear for specific activities, or just guidelines designed to show the equivalency between USAF-style and corporate uniforms? Because interesting to me, they don't list the Corporate Working Uniform for squadron meetings (nearly 100% of our wing wears polo shirts to their squadron meetings).

I don't see any shall, will, or musts in there (and the chart even contradicts itself by saying the CWU can be worn if the Class B or Aviator would be worn, but then doesn't list either of those two as uniforms worn as working uniforms). I do however see usually and commander's direction which to me means the chart is more about what USAF-Style uniform matches a corporate uniform, and not a regulatory demand to wear certain uniforms for certain things.

That table is suggestive in nature to provide guidance as to the appropriate UOD for an activity/event. What it doesn't do is give much guidance as to when you would wear a service coat versus not wearing a service coat. It does, however, say "commander's direction."

If you look under 1.2.3 Classification and General Guidance, 1.2.3.1 states
Quote
CAP uniforms consist of USAF-style uniforms and Corporate-style uniforms. Table 1-1 describes the types of authorized uniforms and categorizes these uniforms by their expected use.

--- bold emphasis is mine

When reading on through the remainder of 1.2.3, it provides additional guidance on the role of commanders in determining the appropriate uniform for an activity within the limitations of mandatory wear.

The chart does not suggest the CWU would be worn in lieu of Service Dress; it says the CWU is the corporate equivalent of the USAF-style utility uniform.

The only time you are required to wear a specific uniform at a specific activity is when that activity director/commander establishes a UOD. They cannot, however, make you purchase items that are not issued. The exception to this rule is that you must maintain the appropriate uniform for special activities (e.g., Encampment; NCSAs, CAP business in the National Capital area, etc.). There are other regulations throughout CAP that mandate uniform wear for certain functions (e.g., you must wear a uniform in CAP corporate aircraft). It's more important to take note as to when not to wear a uniform versus which uniform you should be in, albeit some extreme cases when service dress is a must (1.2.4.4).

I think this is being read into way too much. This doesn't really have much to do with the topic of the USAF transitioning to the OCP, or CAP adopting the OCP in the future.

I wonder if/when CAP gets OCP will the black boot requirement stay or will it be the coyote brown?

The general consensus as to the reason not to switch from leather to suede in the transition from the BDU to ABU seems to rest with the fact that it was perceived as an unjustified cost to members less than it was a matter of having a CAP Air Force-style uniform distinctive from the official Air Force uniform.

However, I was in the group that felt that if one was to continue to wear BDUs, wear the leather; if one was to wear the ABU, wear suedes. It really doesn't make any difference at the NHQ level what boots the individual member decides to purchase and wear.

The Navy and Coast Guard are the remaining forces that continue to wear black leather with their uniforms. Even then, both branches have alternative fatigues for certain operational environments that include the wear of suede combat boots. Even Air Force flight uniforms have adopted suede wear. The Army has even gone to opt away from flight suits to have aircrew members wear ACUs.

So functionally, I don't think CAP is at a loss to move away from black leather to matching suede boots. It's really a non-issue in my book.  We've continued to wear black leather as a "look sharp" tool to teach boot shining, which serves virtually no disciplinary purpose, and to offer an alternative in service dress for wearing dress shoes. My only upset in moving to suede boots is that my desert tan combats are no longer the matching boot with newer uniform patterns. But I personally think the black leather looks atrocious, and even more so when they aren't shined. At the end of the day, it's a work boot, not a show piece. If your boots ain't dirty, you ain't working.

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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,395

« Reply #264 on: May 31, 2018, 09:26:20 AM »

Use the table as a guideline, if you cannot determine that on your own ask your commander to designate the UOD.

I think some of the issue here is that some commanders don't know what the appropriate UOD for an activity would be.

Too many people try to set the UOD before setting the activity, rather than the other way around. The activity dictates the uniform. Unless you're trying to emulate a corporate office, you don't need to dress up.

*Excuse the double post.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,946

« Reply #265 on: May 31, 2018, 10:27:29 AM »

+1 - There's far too much "what do the members own" vs "what is appropriate dress".

It's interesting to see how members will step up for activities when they are just told the UOD
as a matter of course and chips are allowed to fall where they may.

(With that said, there has to be some dots on "the line" for people who are in an approved combo
but simply no interest in something more "exciting".  I know of a CC who, for whatever reason, disdains the
golf shirt and tows a hard line against, even when it is clearly the most appropriate uniform. In some
cases this has meant very capable people have decided not to play, more because of the attitude then the
garment.)
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #266 on: May 31, 2018, 02:04:51 PM »

Have you not heard "the Commander is right even when he is wrong?"


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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,946

« Reply #267 on: May 31, 2018, 02:46:58 PM »

Have you not heard "the Commander is right even when he is wrong?"

Yes, which only goes so far with volunteers - usually to the point where their wallet or calendar gets lighter
then their mental ROI.
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NIN
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« Reply #268 on: May 31, 2018, 03:09:13 PM »

*cough*
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,946

« Reply #269 on: May 31, 2018, 03:24:38 PM »

^ Acknowledged, except when the CC says "no golf shirts", etc., which happens all the time,
including as I recall, some National Schools, and also, they aren't really, are they?  Really?

A good commander can make the case for what he perceives as the "proper" uniform, through
both his own dress and directives, but at the end of the day, if they don't have it, "whatchoogonedo?"
(assuming you want that person present).

It's a problem of CAP's own making that has been an issue for decades.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,208

« Reply #270 on: May 31, 2018, 10:56:05 PM »

^ Acknowledged, except when the CC says "no golf shirts", etc., which happens all the time,
including as I recall, some National Schools, and also, they aren't really, are they?  Really?

A good commander can make the case for what he perceives as the "proper" uniform, through
both his own dress and directives, but at the end of the day, if they don't have it, "whatchoogonedo?"
(assuming you want that person present).

It's a problem of CAP's own making that has been an issue for decades.

Well, considering that the Golf shirt is an "optional" uniform and is not required.
The only "required" uniform combination is either the AF Style Service Uniform (aka Class B) or the White Aviator shirt combo depending on personal choice and/or height/weight status.
So a school commander saying no golf shirts is a non-factor. You're "required" to have the uniform they're requiring.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,946

« Reply #271 on: June 01, 2018, 12:31:31 AM »

And if the "no golf" = "field only"?

(For an activity which does not take place outdoors?)

Waive your hand and say, "The power of affectation compels you?"
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 689

« Reply #272 on: June 01, 2018, 01:50:41 AM »

Well, considering that the Golf shirt is an "optional" uniform and is not required.
The only "required" uniform combination is either the AF Style Service Uniform (aka Class B) or the White Aviator shirt combo depending on personal choice and/or height/weight status.

It's time for that requirement to go. The only required uniform should be the uniform required by the local commander and activity directors. At my unit the commander says wear any uniform you want, just be in a uniform and wear it properly. 98% of the squadron, including the commander wear the polo shirt to meetings.

I've attended a number of classes (SLS/CLC/TLC/UCC) and several wing conferences, each time the UOD was any uniform, just wear it properly. Most of us wore polos.

I've participated in numerous training and real missions serving in several different capacities (but not ground team), wearing the polo uniform properly, just like most of the other folks.

So why is CAP requiring me to spend money on a uniform that's not actually required for anything? Now if some activity or class came up that I wanted to attend and one of you anti-polo people were running it and said everyone has to show up in the fancy clothes, then one of those uniforms would become required for me. But until that day happens (and I'd be surprised if it did), why make me waste closet space on something I don't actually need?

We should never, ever waste a volunteer's time or money. Make me buy a uniform only when I need it to accomplish something I want to do, like buying BDUs after joining the ground team.
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CS
Recruit

Posts: 35

« Reply #273 on: June 01, 2018, 07:58:55 AM »

The required uniform is not the polo shirt.  Both cadet and senior's have one required uniform; corporate short sleeve or class b, simple as that.  You have two choices in this organization; that is to volunteer to join and volunteer to leave.  Every year you sign a statement saying you will abide by the rules of the ORGANZATION, so make a choice
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ironputts
Forum Regular

Posts: 157
Unit: PA-101

Lower Bucks Squadron PA101
« Reply #274 on: June 01, 2018, 09:26:56 AM »

There is nothing like a good uniform discussion!

When attending a CAP event/meeting I always ask, "What is the uniform of the day (UOD)?"

They supply the answer and then I comply.

I have all the uniform types CAP requires. For those who don't, it doesn't hurt to ask if they will accept the uniform you have. I have seen many UODs change after requests.

If they wont then don't go. There are always more events in the future.
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Greg Putnam
Lt. Col., CAP
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

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« Reply #275 on: June 01, 2018, 09:46:50 AM »

The required uniform is not the polo shirt.  Both cadet and senior's have one required uniform; corporate short sleeve or class b, simple as that.  You have two choices in this organization; that is to volunteer to join and volunteer to leave.  Every year you sign a statement saying you will abide by the rules of the ORGANZATION, so make a choice

The fact that this is 100% true, and yet 100% not true (from a practical level) is the core of the problem.

Comparing this to any situation, military or private sector, where the member in question is either issued
clothing, receives an allowance, or is financially renumerated for their service ignore the reality of
the term "volunteer", especially is CAP's paradigm of ongoing retention issues and high annual cadet churn.

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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,395

« Reply #276 on: June 01, 2018, 10:59:24 AM »

To some of the points above---

A lot of this goes to show the culture of the unit, or perhaps even within that Wing.

If your unit is the sit around the table and chat group (whether official or social), with very little "hands-on" outdoor work, then there should be nothing wrong with people being expected to wear Class Bs, the short-sleeved aviator, or the polo. If that's the environment you're working in, who cares? If someone starts nitpicking that unit's uniformity, they're grabbing at straws for an argument to make a point that doesn't need to be made.

If your unit is the high-moto, outdoorsy field training group, have people wear their utilities or give the option for the "management" group at the command post to wear polos. If they can perform the job in a corporate polo (e.g., running the comms station), so be it. Don't tear apart the mission by nitpicking what they need to wear in a CP, whether inside of a classroom or in a tent.

CAP somewhat falters on the mandatory purchase uniform as service dress because the culture at the home unit, and general operational environment, may not regularly utilize that uniform. So if you want uniformity, encourage the wear of the appropriate uniform for the job you're performing, not the once-a-year (if that) class you take at a professional development training weekend or the unit's annual award ceremony.

Frankly, a senior member who doesn't have a service uniform at an award ceremony, but has a good set of field uniforms that are used on a weekly basis, is alright in my book. Mission first. If they're being asked to shill out the money that for something they're hardly ever going to wear (and maybe they never will), you're going to have a morale/retention issue.

But this topic segued way away from the OCP discussion.
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Dwight Dutton
Forum Regular

Posts: 133

« Reply #277 on: June 01, 2018, 01:41:22 PM »

Well, considering that the Golf shirt is an "optional" uniform and is not required.  The only "required" uniform combination is either the AF Style Service Uniform (aka Class B) or the White Aviator shirt combo depending on personal choice and/or height/weight status.  So a school commander saying no golf shirts is a non-factor. You're "required" to have the uniform they're requiring.

And the required uniform - even with all insignia factored in - is cheaper than the polo shirt sold by Vanguard.
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,873

« Reply #278 on: June 01, 2018, 01:57:43 PM »

To some of the points above---

A lot of this goes to show the culture of the unit, or perhaps even within that Wing.

CAP somewhat falters on the mandatory purchase uniform as service dress because the culture at the home unit, and general operational environment, may not regularly utilize that uniform.

Culture? No, it's simply not doing what you're supposed to be doing. In all honesty, the basic uniform is just that because the program, CP and PD, is conducted at the unit level for the most part. Those programs do not require any other garment, outside of PT gear. Want to get into the other aspects, the nonrequired aspects, of CAP? Expect to provide the equipment and unis. The basic uniform is required for all members for a reason.
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Strup
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NIN
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« Reply #279 on: June 01, 2018, 03:10:04 PM »

And the required uniform - even with all insignia factored in - is cheaper than the polo shirt sold by Vanguard.

^^This
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
 


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