CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: Eclipse on July 23, 2017, 02:49:31 PM

Title: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on July 23, 2017, 02:49:31 PM
This is all rumor, conjecture, unconfirmed sources, and innuendo, but with that said, appears to
be happening, and I'm sure some of you in the active and reserve forces have heard similar.

An increasing number of specialties are posting in various places that they have transitioned to, or
are authorized to wear OCP.  For those of you with less free time, OCP (Operational Camouflage Pattern)
is the new(ish) field uniform camo pattern now being worn by the Army and other forces deployed in
middle-eastern combat areas since about 2015.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_Camouflage_Pattern

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Scorpion_W2%2C_Operational_Camouflage_Pattern_%28OCP%29_swatch.png)

While originally characterized as "only for those deploying, and only in theater", it has crept in stateside and you
occasionally see it on various bases even for those not deploying.

The CMSAF has been quoted in a recent "All Call" at Wright Patt, verified by others who were there, that the USAF 2017 uniform
board would be recommending OCP for all personnel, and I have now seen several un-attributable rumor-mill sources that other CMS's are offhandedly
making statements that all hands would be in OCP by 2019. (Which is a reasonable timeline for a recommendation made this FY).
As of writing this the FY2017 Uniform board's recommendations have not been made public.

The general sentiment as far as I can tell is "good riddance", though there are always those who prefer "now", vs., "next", and
some are not excited about the idea of many patches coming back to the USAF.

So, I want to get in on the pool early...

My bet is that by the time CAP completes its overly extended transition to ABUs in 2021, the USAF will no longer be wearing them,
which would top the new list of "typical CAP".

Discuss, deny, decry, or snicker...
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on July 23, 2017, 02:58:15 PM
You, Mister, are on the verge of initiating our next CAP big dilemma...


When will CAP authorize OCP for its members?


 >:D
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on July 23, 2017, 05:09:27 PM
There are some AFSC's CONUS that wear OCP's daily.  Some of these are EOD, SF (currently only missle cops), CCT/PJ, JTAC, TAACP, and I have heard those assigned to AFSOC (nothing than hearsay on that).  So yes there are some members of the AF who wear OCPs on a daily basis CONUS. 

Personally, I can care less I am on the down hill slope to retirement and wont matter much to me anyway. 
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: CyBorgII on July 23, 2017, 06:01:07 PM
I saw an Army Staff Sergeant wearing them in McDonalds a couple of weeks ago.  Not sure if he was AD or Guard, but I'm going to guess Guard because Michigan has no active duty military facilities to my knowledge, except for USCG.  All others are reserve component of some kind; ie Camp Grayling and Selfridge ANGB.

They actually remind me of the Flecktarn camouflage worn by the German Bundeswehr except the colours aren't as vivid.

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/spoonflower/public/design_thumbnails/0174/2980/flecktarn_copy_shop_preview.png)
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: EMT-83 on July 23, 2017, 07:41:07 PM
German uniforms. Cyborg's back.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Jester on July 23, 2017, 08:03:24 PM
There are some AFSC's CONUS that wear OCP's daily.  Some of these are EOD, SF (currently only missle cops), CCT/PJ, JTAC, TAACP, and I have heard those assigned to AFSOC (nothing than hearsay on that).  So yes there are some members of the AF who wear OCPs on a daily basis CONUS. 

Personally, I can care less I am on the down hill slope to retirement and wont matter much to me anyway.


820th is wearing them CONUS. It's possible that's because it's easier for the unit to replace if they get trashed in the field. At least that's why we wore DCUs stateside back in the day.


I assume CRGs are as well but I'm not sure. I think Desert Defender cadre may have them going by their Facebook page.

I think they're coming and within the next 2-3 years.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on July 23, 2017, 08:13:24 PM
There are some AFSC's CONUS that wear OCP's daily.  Some of these are EOD, SF (currently only missle cops), CCT/PJ, JTAC, TAACP, and I have heard those assigned to AFSOC (nothing than hearsay on that).  So yes there are some members of the AF who wear OCPs on a daily basis CONUS. 

Personally, I can care less I am on the down hill slope to retirement and wont matter much to me anyway.


820th is wearing them CONUS. It's possible that's because it's easier for the unit to replace if they get trashed in the field. At least that's why we wore DCUs stateside back in the day.


I assume CRGs are as well but I'm not sure. I think Desert Defender cadre may have them going by their Facebook page.

I think they're coming and within the next 2-3 years.

CRGs are not wearing OCPs CONUS.  And as stated before some AFSCs are but the AF as a whole are not.  There are already issues with obtaining them so they will not be coming AF wide anytime soon.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on July 23, 2017, 08:56:12 PM
The units that work with the Army on a daily basis seem to be the one's wearing the OCP stateside. Of course they were the ones who wore the ACU too.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: NIN on July 23, 2017, 10:04:11 PM
German uniforms. Cyborg's back.
Beat me to it.

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Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: NIN on July 23, 2017, 10:11:46 PM
I was headed up to encampment graduation this morning,  stopped at the local truck fuel place to get gas,  and one of the units from an armory up north was headed out for AT and stopped for potty / fuel. 50/50 mix of soldiers in ACU and OCP.

(I didn't expect a rain of salutes walking out of the gas station with my coffee,  either)

The army is definitely on it's way to OCP, ACU is out.

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Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Nick on July 23, 2017, 11:06:05 PM
My money is that AF is transitioning pretty consistent with Eclipse’s timeline based on the rumor mills I hear, and CAP will get a hefty stock of surplus ABUs and will not be authorized to transition to OCP.


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Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on July 23, 2017, 11:27:57 PM
Of course you would be hard pressed to provide a realistic need for the Air Force to be in camouflage in the first place, at least in CONUS.
When you deploy it's a different story, but that's why you have Deployment Bags. But in CONUS the Air Force could easily do it's job in Blue BDU's.
Just sayin'.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Mustang on July 24, 2017, 04:36:41 AM
You, Mister, are on the verge of initiating our next CAP big dilemma...


When will CAP authorize OCP for its members?


 >:D

Since you haven't detected the pattern: right about the time USAF transitions to something else.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: ColonelJack on July 24, 2017, 07:02:22 AM
Of course you would be hard pressed to provide a realistic need for the Air Force to be in camouflage in the first place, at least in CONUS.
When you deploy it's a different story, but that's why you have Deployment Bags. But in CONUS the Air Force could easily do it's job in Blue BDU's.
Just sayin'.

This actually mirrors my thoughts about the Navy's version of a camouflage uniform for work aboard ships.  While I do understand some of the "whys and wherefores" (stains from oils, etc., don't show up as much), I've never been able to wrap my head around why the Navy would choose a BLUE camouflage uniform.  I mean, if you fall overboard, don't you WANT somebody to see you??

Jack
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: NIN on July 24, 2017, 07:25:28 AM
 that's going away
 My former sq commander's wife is a new Navy ensign. She started her Navy career in the blue camo less than a year ago. 

She just got the *new* new camo.  The green - based one


And she's a surface warfare officer,  not a snipe or some on-shore duty.

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Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on July 24, 2017, 08:28:32 AM
Quote

Since you haven't detected the pattern: right about the time USAF transitions to something else.


Ohh, I know the pattern. I was just introducing the topic that half of those posting about uniforms and uniform changes ends asking about. They are the ones that do not know the pattern.

Quote

She just got the *new* new camo.  The green - based one


Nin, kelp and other algae are green... that's why the Navy camo...
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: deepblue1947 on July 24, 2017, 11:11:11 AM
I guess I just keep it simple.  Wear the Dark Navy BDU's and go on.  I could care less about which Camo pattern they choose.

MG
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: zippity on July 24, 2017, 11:32:20 AM
What is this common-sense posting you're bringing in here? You must be new. :D
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: deepblue1947 on July 24, 2017, 11:48:59 AM
Hi Zippity, that got me to laughing.  Yes I have been in CAP for a year but am an old Air Force veteran from the Vietnam era.  I guess which Camo pattern is going to be authorized for CAP wear is important to some folks but I just found it simpler and more economical to narrow the choices of uniforms to the basics.  Maybe my age has something to do with as I will be 70 in December and I don't sweat this kind of stuff.  I thought the 1505 and 1549 uniforms back in the day were fine and comfortable but eventually the Air Force phased them out for something new and better. 

MG
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Holding Pattern on July 24, 2017, 03:45:15 PM
I actually prefer having cadets in ABUs. It makes them easier to spot.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: ColonelJack on July 24, 2017, 03:54:31 PM
that's going away
 My former sq commander's wife is a new Navy ensign. She started her Navy career in the blue camo less than a year ago. 

She just got the *new* new camo.  The green - based one


And she's a surface warfare officer,  not a snipe or some on-shore duty.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Not to hijack the thread or anything, but ... WHY does the Navy need camouflage anything on a ship?????  Shore duties, I can see.  If you're SEAL or other very special personage who engages in a lot of the shooting, yes, most assuredly.

But on a ship?  What purpose does camouflage on a ship serve?

Jack
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on July 24, 2017, 04:06:57 PM
Well, there are different types of algae in the sea... Green and brown. Reddish brown and so. One is Kelp, another is moss, and others...
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on July 24, 2017, 06:11:52 PM
They don't generally wear the camo once onboard. Most wear the dark
blue bduesque combo, or some other uniform.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: NIN on July 24, 2017, 07:59:56 PM
They don't generally wear the camo once onboard. Most wear the dark
blue bduesque combo, or some other uniform.
Ok. I'll make sure the ensign tells her shipmates....

Cuz they wear that uniform on board the ship from the photos I've seen so far.

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Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: SarDragon on July 24, 2017, 09:32:18 PM
Of course you would be hard pressed to provide a realistic need for the Air Force to be in camouflage in the first place, at least in CONUS.
When you deploy it's a different story, but that's why you have Deployment Bags. But in CONUS the Air Force could easily do it's job in Blue BDU's.
Just sayin'.

This actually mirrors my thoughts about the Navy's version of a camouflage uniform for work aboard ships.  While I do understand some of the "whys and wherefores" (stains from oils, etc., don't show up as much), I've never been able to wrap my head around why the Navy would choose a BLUE camouflage uniform.  I mean, if you fall overboard, don't you WANT somebody to see you??

Jack

Based on my underway experience, the new uniforms don't seem to be any less visible in the water than the old dungaree working uniform they replaced.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: SarDragon on July 24, 2017, 09:36:53 PM
They don't generally wear the camo once onboard. Most wear the dark
blue bduesque combo, or some other uniform.

Really?

Underway uniform depends a lot on the assigned work center. The really dirty places get coveralls, issued to the sailor. Clean work centers get the standard working uniform - the blue cammies. Chiefs and officers generally wear working khakis, unless in one of the dirty areas, then they, too, wear the blue coveralls.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: kwe1009 on July 25, 2017, 09:25:12 AM
To go back to the OP and away from discussing what the Navy may or may not wear, I wouldn't say the USAF is quietly transitioning to OCP.  What is happening is very similar to what happened in the 1980's with the transition to BDUs.  Those USAF personnel who worked closely with the Army or Special Ops wore BDUs while all other USAF wore OD.  Even the USAF personnel that were stationed in USAFE were issued BDUs but weren't allowed to wear them stateside.

Hopefully ABUs will be gone from the USAF soon but I'm not holding my breath.  It is definitely one of the worst uniforms that I have ever had to wear on many levels.  It is a decent uniform for CAP since it helps with visibility in the field.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: lordmonar on July 25, 2017, 11:47:56 AM
What you are getting.....is anyone who can justify it....even a little bit....are wearing the TACTI-COOL uniform.

As Kwe said...back in the 80's the same thing happened with the BDUs. So...yes the USAF is quietly moving to OCP's...because eventually someone is going to ask their chief will ask THE CHIEF who will ask THE BOSS and then it will make it to the Uniform Board.

So....sometime between now and the next 10 years the USAF will change over to OCP.  And if I had my way CAP would change right along with them.
Title: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Storm Chaser on July 30, 2017, 01:04:26 PM
I'm not a fan of OCPs. In my opinion, they don't fit as well as BDUs or ABUs. They also tend to fade a lot faster. My last pair looked like I've worn them for 6 moths to a year after only 4 or 5 washes. That said, I don't doubt the Air Force will be moving in that direction eventually. CAP will probably take much longer to go to OCPs.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: CAPLTC on August 08, 2017, 08:33:20 PM
Agree.  The fabric is for crap and it fits funny.
PEO Soldier promised they'd fix the waistline that reaches a man's ribcage - and leads to saggy crotch which leads to rips. The FRACU addressed this with a shorter rise, unsure why they went back to stupid.
The Afghan-issue FRACU in Multicam is, hands down, the BEST uniform I have ever been issued in 23 years of doing Army stuff.

I'm not a fan of OCPs. In my opinion, they don't fit as well as BDUs or ABUs. They also tend to fade a lot faster. My last pair looked like I've worn them for 6 moths to a year after only 4 or 5 washes. That said, I don't doubt the Air Force will be moving in that direction eventually. CAP will probably take much longer to go to OCPs.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: ZigZag911 on August 11, 2017, 05:46:17 PM
The only possible excuse for camouflage uniforms in CAP is to attract new cadet members.

For reasons that completely escape me (my cadet years being of "pickle suit" vintage!) modern kids delight in walking around looking like shrubbery!!!

IMHO, senior should all transition to BBDU.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Jester on August 11, 2017, 06:14:17 PM
According to the AF subreddit, as of 3 August a recommendation had been submitted to transition to OCPs by a BG Davis. If that wasn't feasible, the next recommended course of action was unit patches on ABUs. Uniform Board decisions are pending.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on August 11, 2017, 08:36:22 PM
According to the AF subreddit, as of 3 August a recommendation had been submitted to transition to OCPs by a BG Davis. If that wasn't feasible, the next recommended course of action was unit patches on ABUs. Uniform Board decisions are pending.

This is probably the fourth or fifth time they have tried to get patches back. All of the previous attempts were rejected or I don't think this attempt will get approval either. One big reason, money, the patches have to be provided at no cost to enlisted troops. Money that can be used for other things that are needed more.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PA Guy on August 11, 2017, 09:25:37 PM
IMHO, senior should all transition to BBDU.

Yes. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Jester on August 11, 2017, 11:26:42 PM
According to the AF subreddit, as of 3 August a recommendation had been submitted to transition to OCPs by a BG Davis. If that wasn't feasible, the next recommended course of action was unit patches on ABUs. Uniform Board decisions are pending.

This is probably the fourth or fifth time they have tried to get patches back. All of the previous attempts were rejected or I don't think this attempt will get approval either. One big reason, money, the patches have to be provided at no cost to enlisted troops. Money that can be used for other things that are needed more.

My gut feeling is that OCPs have a better chance than ABU patches. After 10 years people are just fed up with it. Time to admit it had a decent service life and go on to something much more useful. Basically parallel with the UCP ACU.

It's really no skin off my nose any longer but it is interesting to follow.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Гугл переводчик on August 13, 2017, 09:49:51 PM
I'm currently stationed on a Global Strike base, and all the cops wear the OCPs, with our commander telling us to get ready for OCPs for us...
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: FW on August 14, 2017, 08:14:49 AM
IMHO, senior should all transition to BBDU.

Yes. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

And this is why I just wear the polo/grey combo.... LOL
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Nikos on August 28, 2017, 07:33:45 PM
For us "younger" guys, what is a 1505 uniform?
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: SarDragon on August 28, 2017, 09:50:12 PM
For us "younger" guys, what is a 1505 uniform?

1505 uniform image (https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0SO80kcx6RZSOkAeexXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEycWM5amxrBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjI5NDRfMQRzZWMDc2M-?p=1505+uniform&fr=yfp-t)

Really, Google and Yahoo! are your friends.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on August 29, 2017, 08:14:49 AM
Sar, your response was a non-response. Clicking on your link gave me a lot of pickle suits, BDUs, Khakis, even a Prusian soldier!

So your response was "ANYTHING goes as a 1505?" Hardly what I expected with your experience!

 >:D

 ;D

Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: indiaXray on August 29, 2017, 08:33:39 AM
Here's a radical idea, why doesn't the DoD give each armed service the same pattern of combat uniform to wear?  Then allow each branch to fold it/iron it/wear it/regulate it as they see fit.  It'd save money, time, effort, etc, but who wants that?  ::)
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: kwe1009 on August 29, 2017, 09:11:33 AM
Here's a radical idea, why doesn't the DoD give each armed service the same pattern of combat uniform to wear?  Then allow each branch to fold it/iron it/wear it/regulate it as they see fit.  It'd save money, time, effort, etc, but who wants that?  ::)

We did that for decade with the BDU, OD, and other utility uniforms.  All it accomplished was saving taxpayer money (not having each branch spend millions on uniform development).  The downside was that it cost many high-ranking officer valuable performance report statements and it also kept some Chiefs of Staff from being able to say that they created their branch's uniform.  Why would we ever want to go back to a common uniform?  Just think of all of the officers who would be denied the opportunity to claim these uniforms.  Also what about the different clothing manufacturers who receive those millions of dollars to develop needless uniforms?   >:D
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on August 29, 2017, 10:03:21 AM
Here's a radical idea, why doesn't the DoD give each armed service the same pattern of combat uniform to wear?  Then allow each branch to fold it/iron it/wear it/regulate it as they see fit.  It'd save money, time, effort, etc, but who wants that?  ::)

Back around 2012 the GAO directed that this essentially happen, and that directive has been somewhat ignored, though now it appears to be happening organically.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: SarDragon on August 29, 2017, 04:05:13 PM
Sar, your response was a non-response. Clicking on your link gave me a lot of pickle suits, BDUs, Khakis, even a Prusian soldier!

So your response was "ANYTHING goes as a 1505?" Hardly what I expected with your experience!

 >:D

 ;D

Come on. Most of the pics are captioned, making it easy to see which are the uniforms in question.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: supertigerCH on August 29, 2017, 04:25:38 PM
Here's a radical idea, why doesn't the DoD give each armed service the same pattern of combat uniform to wear?  Then allow each branch to fold it/iron it/wear it/regulate it as they see fit.  It'd save money, time, effort, etc, but who wants that?  ::)

You mean the way it was done for decades... until about 2005?  What an amazing idea.  Never understood the need for all of this anyway -- back when it all started.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: NIN on August 29, 2017, 05:37:17 PM
Here's a radical idea, why doesn't the DoD give each armed service the same pattern of combat uniform to wear?  Then allow each branch to fold it/iron it/wear it/regulate it as they see fit.  It'd save money, time, effort, etc, but who wants that?  ::)

You mean the way it was done for decades... until about 2005?  What an amazing idea.  Never understood the need for all of this anyway -- back when it all started.
The Marines felt a burning need to rebrand themselves. :)
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Commo on August 29, 2017, 07:46:21 PM
Here's a radical idea, why doesn't the DoD give each armed service the same pattern of combat uniform to wear?  Then allow each branch to fold it/iron it/wear it/regulate it as they see fit.  It'd save money, time, effort, etc, but who wants that?  ::)

For combat/field uniforms, different services have different missions.  If we didn't, we wouldn't need ~four different branches of the armed forces.

For dress uniforms, on the other hand, I roll my eyes with the other posters in the unnecessary changes.  The Army went from greens to blues, and now there are strong rumors they may change again to the WW2 era pink and greens?

Commo

Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: CyBorgII on August 30, 2017, 01:55:36 AM
Here's a radical idea, why doesn't the DoD give each armed service the same pattern of combat uniform to wear?  Then allow each branch to fold it/iron it/wear it/regulate it as they see fit.  It'd save money, time, effort, etc, but who wants that?  ::)

My ex-brother-in-law was in the Army when the change to BDU's came in the '80s.  At first he hated them, saying they were going to be hard to make look good for inspections, because of the way they were cut, but he admitted it would probably save a lot of money in the long run.

I do not see why the services have largely jettisoned the BDU (except for a handful of CG units) and gone back into their own parochialism of what camouflage is "best."  A body is a body is a body and the intention of camouflage is to break up the outline and visibility of that body.  It does not matter if the body inside the uniform is a Soldier, Sailor, Airman, Coastie or Marine.  You can be service-differentiated by your dress uniforms.  The Taliban, ISIS/ISIL, etc aren't going to care which service the troop they're sniping at is in.

I like the ODU that the CG (and Auxiliary) wears.  No real pretence at camouflage, just a working duty uniform.  That's why I preferred the BBDU when I was in CAP.

The way the USA handles such matters is anachronistic compared to the rest of the world, especially our NATO colleagues.

Canada wears CADPAT for a combat uniform, no matter if you're Army, RCAF or RCN.  When you go to Canadian basic training - which encompasses all three services training together - that is what you are issued.  The only way you are differentiated is the colour of your beret (and I know that berets are taboo in the US armed forces, except for special-ops types).

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/95/Cadpat_tw_soldiers.jpg)

Britain is moving to Multi-Terrain Pattern (MTP) camouflage.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/40_Commando_irrigation_ditch.jpg/1024px-40_Commando_irrigation_ditch.jpg)

The Netherlands' troops wear this:

(http://www.thesupply-sgt.co.uk/ekmps/shops/bigdave57/images/dutch-tropical-camo-shirt-613-p[ekm]1000x744[ekm].jpg)

Granted, there is some parochialism left.  The Royal Australian Air Force has issued this multi-blue "camouflage" as a work uniform, but they don't pretend it's camouflage in the strictest sense...they came up with it simply because it looks like the sky!

(http://i.imgur.com/56s4j8l.jpg)

However, if deployed to field conditions, Aussie airmen and women will wear the same thing their Army counterparts wear (as seen on the bloke in the background).

Note: no pictures of Bundeswehr/former NVA uniforms, because certain individuals on here have seized on my citing such things in the past - mostly grey service uniforms to illustrate CAP's attachment to that non-colour - as "evidence" that I have a fixation on all things German. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

However, I will illustrate Swiss camouflage (which both of their armed services use) as my ancestry is Swiss, anyway, not German... :P

(https://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/11/28/71/91/100_5621.jpg)

I just don't see the sense of having a multitude of camouflage uniforms based on each services perceived aesthetics.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: indiaXray on August 30, 2017, 08:32:14 AM
Quote
The only way you are differentiated is the colour of your beret.

I guess it's what you're used to.  As an army cadet in the UK, my beret was Army Air Corps blue, made by Kangool.  Regional cadet courses with other units were always very colourful with different shades and styles (for Scottish/Irish cadets) of headgear.  The first few minutes of each course were spent in headgear admiration, finding out what regiments everyone was attached to.  Stable belts too added a splash of colour to then ubiquitous DPM combat uniform.  There was no mess, no fuss, no sewing.  In my experience, it was a uniform that you could get ready quickly and move on to doing more important things, like training or prep.  The new Multi-Terrain Pattern (MTP) pattern now in use with HM Forces looks nice though. It should be in use for another twenty five years or so....

Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: stillamarine on August 30, 2017, 09:27:05 AM
Here's a radical idea, why doesn't the DoD give each armed service the same pattern of combat uniform to wear?  Then allow each branch to fold it/iron it/wear it/regulate it as they see fit.  It'd save money, time, effort, etc, but who wants that?  ::)

You mean the way it was done for decades... until about 2005?  What an amazing idea.  Never understood the need for all of this anyway -- back when it all started.
The Marines felt a burning need to rebrand themselves. :)

The Marines felt the need for a camouflage uniform that worked. Everyone else just wanted to be like us. If we wanted to rebrand we would have changed all our uniforms...........kinda like the Army.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: THRAWN on August 30, 2017, 10:02:47 AM
Here's a radical idea, why doesn't the DoD give each armed service the same pattern of combat uniform to wear?  Then allow each branch to fold it/iron it/wear it/regulate it as they see fit.  It'd save money, time, effort, etc, but who wants that?  ::)

You mean the way it was done for decades... until about 2005?  What an amazing idea.  Never understood the need for all of this anyway -- back when it all started.
The Marines felt a burning need to rebrand themselves. :)

The Marines felt the need for a camouflage uniform that worked. Everyone else just wanted to be like us. If we wanted to rebrand we would have changed all our uniforms...........kinda like the Army.

More like they found themselves flush with cash and instead of doing something smart with it, they just made some contractor richer.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: kwe1009 on August 30, 2017, 10:04:24 AM
Here's a radical idea, why doesn't the DoD give each armed service the same pattern of combat uniform to wear?  Then allow each branch to fold it/iron it/wear it/regulate it as they see fit.  It'd save money, time, effort, etc, but who wants that?  ::)

For combat/field uniforms, different services have different missions.  If we didn't, we wouldn't need ~four different branches of the armed forces.

For dress uniforms, on the other hand, I roll my eyes with the other posters in the unnecessary changes.  The Army went from greens to blues, and now there are strong rumors they may change again to the WW2 era pink and greens?

Commo

No reason to have different cammo patterns when the different branches are operating in the same AOR.  For many years the military wore BDUs with a pattern that was designed to fight a war in Europe.  When we deployed to a less green environment we were issued DCU/chocolate chips.  I can't think of a good reason for the different branches to have a completely different utility uniform.  They should all be the same with the exception of the pattern which should be dependent on the AOR.  In the AOR, everyone should be wearing the same pattern regardless of their branch of service.

As far a dress uniforms go, I just wish the USAF would move toward a more military-looking jacket.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: stillamarine on August 30, 2017, 10:07:46 AM
Here's a radical idea, why doesn't the DoD give each armed service the same pattern of combat uniform to wear?  Then allow each branch to fold it/iron it/wear it/regulate it as they see fit.  It'd save money, time, effort, etc, but who wants that?  ::)

You mean the way it was done for decades... until about 2005?  What an amazing idea.  Never understood the need for all of this anyway -- back when it all started.
The Marines felt a burning need to rebrand themselves. :)

The Marines felt the need for a camouflage uniform that worked. Everyone else just wanted to be like us. If we wanted to rebrand we would have changed all our uniforms...........kinda like the Army.

More like they found themselves flush with cash and instead of doing something smart with it, they just made some contractor richer.

The Marine Corps flush with cash? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.................Oh you were serious......
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: THRAWN on August 30, 2017, 10:12:19 AM
Here's a radical idea, why doesn't the DoD give each armed service the same pattern of combat uniform to wear?  Then allow each branch to fold it/iron it/wear it/regulate it as they see fit.  It'd save money, time, effort, etc, but who wants that?  ::)

You mean the way it was done for decades... until about 2005?  What an amazing idea.  Never understood the need for all of this anyway -- back when it all started.
The Marines felt a burning need to rebrand themselves. :)

The Marines felt the need for a camouflage uniform that worked. Everyone else just wanted to be like us. If we wanted to rebrand we would have changed all our uniforms...........kinda like the Army.

More like they found themselves flush with cash and instead of doing something smart with it, they just made some contractor richer.

The Marine Corps flush with cash? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.................Oh you were serious......

The whole DoD was. Which is why you have the different utilities, the silliness of velcro on the ACU, the endless stacks of stuff that is still sitting in warehouses waiting to be unpackaged....
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: stillamarine on August 30, 2017, 10:14:54 AM
Here's a radical idea, why doesn't the DoD give each armed service the same pattern of combat uniform to wear?  Then allow each branch to fold it/iron it/wear it/regulate it as they see fit.  It'd save money, time, effort, etc, but who wants that?  ::)

You mean the way it was done for decades... until about 2005?  What an amazing idea.  Never understood the need for all of this anyway -- back when it all started.
The Marines felt a burning need to rebrand themselves. :)

The Marines felt the need for a camouflage uniform that worked. Everyone else just wanted to be like us. If we wanted to rebrand we would have changed all our uniforms...........kinda like the Army.

More like they found themselves flush with cash and instead of doing something smart with it, they just made some contractor richer.

The Marine Corps flush with cash? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.................Oh you were serious......

The whole DoD was. Which is why you have the different utilities, the silliness of velcro on the ACU, the endless stacks of stuff that is still sitting in warehouses waiting to be unpackaged....

So how come the other services were years behind the Marine Corps? Multiple years of being flush with cash? During the upbeat of major combat operations? Do you know what we had to do to accomplish the mission in the first couple years of OEF? I'd tell you but I'm not sure if the statute of limitations has worn off yet.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on August 30, 2017, 10:18:32 AM
Here's a radical idea, why doesn't the DoD give each armed service the same pattern of combat uniform to wear?  Then allow each branch to fold it/iron it/wear it/regulate it as they see fit.  It'd save money, time, effort, etc, but who wants that?  ::)

You mean the way it was done for decades... until about 2005?  What an amazing idea.  Never understood the need for all of this anyway -- back when it all started.
The Marines felt a burning need to rebrand themselves. :)

The Marines felt the need for a camouflage uniform that worked. Everyone else just wanted to be like us. If we wanted to rebrand we would have changed all our uniforms...........kinda like the Army.

More like they found themselves flush with cash and instead of doing something smart with it, they just made some contractor richer.

The Marine Corps flush with cash? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.................Oh you were serious......

The whole DoD was. Which is why you have the different utilities, the silliness of velcro on the ACU, the endless stacks of stuff that is still sitting in warehouses waiting to be unpackaged....

So how come the other services were years behind the Marine Corps? Multiple years of being flush with cash? During the upbeat of major combat operations? Do you know what we had to do to accomplish the mission in the first couple years of OEF? I'd tell you but I'm not sure if the statute of limitations has worn off yet.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States#Budget_by_Year



Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: stillamarine on August 30, 2017, 10:22:27 AM
Here's a radical idea, why doesn't the DoD give each armed service the same pattern of combat uniform to wear?  Then allow each branch to fold it/iron it/wear it/regulate it as they see fit.  It'd save money, time, effort, etc, but who wants that?  ::)

You mean the way it was done for decades... until about 2005?  What an amazing idea.  Never understood the need for all of this anyway -- back when it all started.
The Marines felt a burning need to rebrand themselves. :)

The Marines felt the need for a camouflage uniform that worked. Everyone else just wanted to be like us. If we wanted to rebrand we would have changed all our uniforms...........kinda like the Army.

More like they found themselves flush with cash and instead of doing something smart with it, they just made some contractor richer.

The Marine Corps flush with cash? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.................Oh you were serious......

The whole DoD was. Which is why you have the different utilities, the silliness of velcro on the ACU, the endless stacks of stuff that is still sitting in warehouses waiting to be unpackaged....

So how come the other services were years behind the Marine Corps? Multiple years of being flush with cash? During the upbeat of major combat operations? Do you know what we had to do to accomplish the mission in the first couple years of OEF? I'd tell you but I'm not sure if the statute of limitations has worn off yet.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States#Budget_by_Year

Mmkay.....so reading that where does it say the Marine Corps or the DOD in general had a bunch of money just laying around to blow on uniforms? I see a big increase in 2002.........guess what, we were spending a bunch more money too.....Well the Army and AF were, we still had hand me downs.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Brit_in_CAP on August 30, 2017, 03:34:09 PM
Quote
The only way you are differentiated is the colour of your beret.

I guess it's what you're used to.  As an army cadet in the UK, my beret was Army Air Corps blue, made by Kangool.  Regional cadet courses with other units were always very colourful with different shades and styles (for Scottish/Irish cadets) of headgear.  The first few minutes of each course were spent in headgear admiration, finding out what regiments everyone was attached to.  Stable belts too added a splash of colour to then ubiquitous DPM combat uniform.  There was no mess, no fuss, no sewing.  In my experience, it was a uniform that you could get ready quickly and move on to doing more important things, like training or prep.  The new Multi-Terrain Pattern (MTP) pattern now in use with HM Forces looks nice though. It should be in use for another twenty five years or so....

Yep....I still have my DPM jacket, which I had to buy in 1981 because the RAF was too poor to issue them generally, and that pattern was in use for at least 30 years.  It did prep and clean easily, although I was glad to see the end of the DMS ankle boots!  Always jealous of the different beret colours, though...!
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Ford73Diesel on August 30, 2017, 11:18:10 PM
I do not see why the services have largely jettisoned the BDU (except for a handful of CG units) and gone back into their own parochialism of what camouflage is "best."

The CG transitioned from BDU and DCU to NWU Type III in late 2012. When I was in Kuwait we got a lot of jealous looks from the navy people, who were sweating profusely in their Type III's.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: CAPLTC on September 07, 2017, 07:45:10 PM
So how come the other services were years behind the Marine Corps? Multiple years of being flush with cash? During the upbeat of major combat operations? Do you know what we had to do to accomplish the mission in the first couple years of OEF? I'd tell you but I'm not sure if the statute of limitations has worn off yet.

I don't know that the Marines were way ahead of the power curve, per se?
MARPAT is actually CADPAT with different colors plugged-in.
Not really "great" camo.
PEO Soldier found that just plain old coyote brown or neutral grey is better than most actual camo patterns.
It's all been written on ad-nauseum.
Having to adopt Multicam/OCP is going to hurt the USMC the most. I can already hear the open weeping. Sorry guys.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: CyBorgII on September 07, 2017, 10:19:22 PM
For combat/field uniforms, different services have different missions.  If we didn't, we wouldn't need ~four five different branches of the armed forces.

FTFY. ;)

Five, actually - Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard.

Add in the other two "uniformed services" - NOAA Commissioned Corps and the uniformed branch of the USPHS (who do the medical care for the Coast Guard), and you technically have seven.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on November 02, 2017, 02:48:35 PM
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/10/20/air-force-mulls-uniform-shift-abus-acus.html

Clearly just a matter of when at this point, despite some recent public comments about nothing changing.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on November 02, 2017, 08:12:34 PM
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/10/20/air-force-mulls-uniform-shift-abus-acus.html

Clearly just a matter of when at this point, despite some recent public comments about nothing changing.

Jokes on you. The Army has been shifting from the ACU to the OCP uniform for a couple years now. And Military.com is not exactly a reliable source.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LSThiker on November 02, 2017, 08:46:46 PM
The Army has been shifting from the ACU to the OCP uniform for a couple years now.

No they have not.  They are currently using the ACU and will continue to use the ACU.  What the Army is shifting is from the UCP to the OCP. 
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on November 02, 2017, 10:56:41 PM
The Army has been shifting from the ACU to the OCP uniform for a couple years now.

No they have not.  They are currently using the ACU and will continue to use the ACU.  What the Army is shifting is from the UCP to the OCP.

Funny, when I drive by the Armed Forces Reserve Center on Drill Weekends I see formations that are about 1/3 ACU and 2/3 OCP.
And my friends who are in the Army Guard tell me that all they issue is OCP these days.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LSThiker on November 02, 2017, 11:42:54 PM
The Army has been shifting from the ACU to the OCP uniform for a couple years now.

No they have not.  They are currently using the ACU and will continue to use the ACU.  What the Army is shifting is from the UCP to the OCP.

Funny, when I drive by the Armed Forces Reserve Center on Drill Weekends I see formations that are about 1/3 ACU and 2/3 OCP.
And my friends who are in the Army Guard tell me that all they issue is OCP these days.

You are missing a critical piece of information, which is not funny.  The UCP and OCP are both ACUs.  Again, the Army is switching from UCP ACU to OCP ACU.  So what you really see is 100% ACU, which is divided as 1/3 UCP and 2/3 OCP.

Now, I would suggest rereading that military.com article, which the message should be clearer.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on November 03, 2017, 12:16:07 AM
The Army has been shifting from the ACU to the OCP uniform for a couple years now.

No they have not.  They are currently using the ACU and will continue to use the ACU.  What the Army is shifting is from the UCP to the OCP.

Funny, when I drive by the Armed Forces Reserve Center on Drill Weekends I see formations that are about 1/3 ACU and 2/3 OCP.
And my friends who are in the Army Guard tell me that all they issue is OCP these days.

You are missing a critical piece of information, which is not funny.  The UCP and OCP are both ACUs.  Again, the Army is switching from UCP ACU to OCP ACU.  So what you really see is 100% ACU, which is divided as 1/3 UCP and 2/3 OCP.

Now, I would suggest rereading that military.com article, which the message should be clearer.

Never bothered to read the Military.com article since they are not a trusted source. About the same as the New York Post, a scandal sheet.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LSThiker on November 03, 2017, 09:47:18 AM
Never bothered to read the Military.com article since they are not a trusted source. About the same as the New York Post, a scandal sheet.

Fair enough, and I agree military.com is not a highly trusted source. After all, the NYP does run some actual news articles.  Nevertheless, the USAF may in fact be mulling a switch from ABUs to ACUs, as suggested by the headline.  Of course, if that happens, the USAF will most likely pick up OCPs rather than UCPs, as the Army is switching to the former.  But only time will tell. 
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: kwe1009 on November 03, 2017, 10:10:06 AM
Never bothered to read the Military.com article since they are not a trusted source. About the same as the New York Post, a scandal sheet.

Fair enough, and I agree military.com is not a highly trusted source. After all, the NYP does run some actual news articles.  Nevertheless, the USAF may in fact be mulling a switch from ABUs to ACUs, as suggested by the headline.  Of course, if that happens, the USAF will most likely pick up OCPs rather than UCPs, as the Army is switching to the former.  But only time will tell.

CENTCOM had definitely made the switch to OCP as have other USAF units that work closely with the Army.  Given that a good number of the USAF is already wearing the UCP daily or has some in their closet that was issued during a deployment, it would be logical for the rest of the USAF to move to that uniform.  I know that logic is something that rarely, if ever, is used in making uniform decisions but one can only hope. 

Back in the 1980's, the USAF went to BDUs exclusively after a large number of member were issued that uniform do to being assigned to USAFE and other overseas areas.  I never understood why the different branches were allowed to create their own utility uniforms.  That was a gigantic waste of time and money both for DoD and the individual service members to purchase more expensive uniforms due to the smaller market since the uniforms were service-specific.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on March 23, 2018, 10:39:19 AM
Those who follow DOD and USAF news in the InterTubes are no doubt aware that a presentation
from the USAF uniform board was leaked which indicated that it would be recommending
a full transition to OCPs as of 1 Oct.

That same seemingly reliable source has posted that a high-ranking BMT Officer is confirming
that 1 OCT will be the transition date and his intention is to have Lackland BMT units be the first
to receive OCPs as their standard / only uniform issue.

USAF is, of course, indicating "no decision has been made", but seriously, the writing for this
isn't just on the wall, it's been carved in stone for quite a while.

It probably won't be certain until Oct (though the logistics of these sorts of things generally force
announcements), however it now seems virtually certain that the USAF will be well out of ABUs
before CAP completes its transition.

Between this and the Zucks issues this week, it appears to be a good time for people invested in
"Told Ya!" t-shirts.


CAP needs >a< field uniform of its own (or frankly doesn't really and could just adopt some variation
of tac pants and a robust shirt like most of the rest of the ES world).

Chasing affinity when there's a 5-10 year delay in adoption is self-defeating.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: kwe1009 on March 23, 2018, 11:30:50 AM
Chasing affinity when there's a 5-10 year delay in adoption is self-defeating.

Agreed.  It would be nice to get on the same schedule as JROTC in regards to uniforms but we have to take into consideration that CAP is a volunteer organization and each new uniform variation just keeps jacking up the price.

Once the USAF drops the ABUs and green boots (a day that most Airmen will celebrate), the supply of ABUs will quickly dry up outside of Vanguard sales.  I am not sure where VG gets their ABUs from but I don't think that CAP is a big enough customer to keep a clothing line alive.  If that is the case CAP will have to start looking for a replacement utility uniform probably within 5 years.

This is a much different issue than we had with the BDU.  You could still find them in surplus stores and companies still made them because that uniform is still worn by many organizations around the world.  Nobody outside of the USAF (it include ROTC/JROTC/CAP) is wearing it so both the supply and demand is very small. 
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on March 23, 2018, 12:26:26 PM
Agreed.  It would be nice to get on the same schedule as JROTC in regards to uniforms but we have to take into consideration that CAP is a volunteer organization and each new uniform variation just keeps jacking up the price.

That's why common sense gets you off the bandwagon entirely.

Blues & whites haven't and aren't likely to change, but the field uniforms affect a significantly higher portion of the membership.
I know more then a few members that only have a golf shirt and a field uniform and / or flight suit (yes, required, etc., etc.)

Members who "only" do NESA, ES, flying, whatever, important to operations, may well have several of these to be able to
participate in prolonged, multi-day events.

Considering the rigmarole required for the average member to config a new uniform (sewing, etc.), the field uniforms are also
the most hassle and worn by the most members overall.

Sundown ABUs in 2021, make the standard the dark blue, which are worn by many LEA and similar agencies, leave the blues / whites as is,
and never care or worry again about the foibles of what the military is wearing, at least in the field.

You never have another conversation about grooming or uniformity again, and in public, which is where a lot of field
uniforms are worn, CAP is one Total Force.







Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: J2H on March 23, 2018, 05:45:34 PM
I loved the ABU and green boots!  No ironing, no polishing... take it out of the dryer, shake it out, throw it on.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: CAP9907 on March 23, 2018, 06:32:39 PM
Agreed.  It would be nice to get on the same schedule as JROTC in regards to uniforms but we have to take into consideration that CAP is a volunteer organization and each new uniform variation just keeps jacking up the price.



Blues & whites haven't and aren't likely to change, but the field uniforms affect a significantly higher portion of the membership.

Members who "only" do NESA, ES, flying, whatever, important to operations, may well have several of these to be able to
participate in prolonged, multi-day events.



Sundown ABUs in 2021, make the standard the dark blue, which are worn by many LEA and similar agencies, leave the blues / whites as is,
and never care or worry again about the foibles of what the military is wearing, at least in the field.

You never have another conversation about grooming or uniformity again, and in public, which is where a lot of field
uniforms are worn, CAP is one Total Force.

Could not agree more, this actually makes sense!!!!   :o
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Stonewall on March 24, 2018, 03:49:31 AM
I loved the ABU and green boots!  No ironing, no polishing... take it out of the dryer, shake it out, throw it on.

OCPs are the same. Wash and wear, no ironing or polishing of boots.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Fester on March 24, 2018, 04:07:21 AM
Easy solution..... become a fat and fuzzy.  So you're limited to the Corporate Uniforms which are far less likely to change and save you a ton of money in the long haul.  :D
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on March 24, 2018, 11:38:43 AM
I loved the ABU and green boots!  No ironing, no polishing... take it out of the dryer, shake it out, throw it on.

OCPs are the same. Wash and wear, no ironing or polishing of boots.

At least in the Army, you wear "Coyote Brown" boots with the OCP's.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: arajca on March 24, 2018, 12:13:17 PM
Easy solution..... become a fat and fuzzy.  So you're limited to the Corporate Uniforms which are far less likely to change and save you a ton of money in the long haul.  :D
Actually, even easier - just wear the corporate uniforms. H/W and grooming are irrelevant, unless your a cadet over 18 who does not meet the h/w standards, then grooming is relevant.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LATORRECA on March 24, 2018, 09:19:08 PM
I am tired of buying uniforms. One more reason why I’m retiring.

Carlos


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on March 25, 2018, 12:11:10 AM
I am tired of buying uniforms. One more reason why I’m retiring.

Carlos


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Go to the corprates and you won't need to buy anymore uniforms.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: CAP9907 on March 25, 2018, 12:43:19 AM
I am tired of buying uniforms. One more reason why I’m retiring.

Carlos


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Go to the corprates and you won't need to buy anymore uniforms.

This is the best advice. Corporate uniform is more than capable of accomplishing all missions with minimal cost to our Members.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on March 29, 2018, 03:50:39 PM
https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/03/28/chief-wright-on-ocp-uniform-photos-my-bad-no-trolling-intended/

"The Air Force is close — “like really close” — to making a decision on whether to adopt the Army’s Operational Camouflage Pattern uniform,
Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Kaleth Wright said in a Facebook post Tuesday.

But, Wright said, he didn’t intend to tease or “troll” airmen on Monday when he posted photographs of himself
wearing OCPs during a trip to Cannon Air Force Base in New Mexico."


(https://www.armytimes.com/resizer/o9ZbDM9a8EE3IiE1LHPbjISsnUw=/1200x0/filters:quality(100)/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-mco.s3.amazonaws.com/public/NHUIVDTUBRAUVJKYOTUAUHZBSI.jpg)
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: CAPLTC on March 29, 2018, 07:19:41 PM
https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/03/28/chief-wright-on-ocp-uniform-photos-my-bad-no-trolling-intended/

"The Air Force is close — “like really close” — to making a decision on whether to adopt the Army’s Operational Camouflage Pattern uniform,
Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Kaleth Wright said in a Facebook post Tuesday.

But, Wright said, he didn’t intend to tease or “troll” airmen on Monday when he posted photographs of himself
wearing OCPs during a trip to Cannon Air Force Base in New Mexico."


(https://www.armytimes.com/resizer/o9ZbDM9a8EE3IiE1LHPbjISsnUw=/1200x0/filters:quality(100)/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-mco.s3.amazonaws.com/public/NHUIVDTUBRAUVJKYOTUAUHZBSI.jpg)

Nice.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: shuman14 on March 30, 2018, 11:56:13 AM
Simply for ease of identification of friend vs foe in a combat/field/response environment, all US personnel and their Auxiliary Forces (CAP, USCGAux, SDFs, etc.) should be in the same working uniform, which was directed by Congress and by law several years ago.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on March 30, 2018, 12:03:03 PM
Simply for ease of identification of friend vs foe in a combat/field/response environment, all US personnel and their Auxiliary Forces (CAP, USCGAux, SDFs, etc.) should be in the same working uniform, which was directed by Congress and by law several years ago.

So we'll be switching to OCPs?

Personally I think it's a great idea, although I think we should finish our phase-in to ABUs then switch. Also do you think this would mean that we won't be required to turn in our ABUs once we leave CAP?
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on March 30, 2018, 12:03:56 PM
Simply for ease of identification of friend vs foe in a combat/field/response environment, all US personnel and their Auxiliary Forces (CAP, USCGAux, SDFs, etc.) should be in the same working uniform, which was directed by Congress and by law several years ago.

No congress directed no more service individual field uniforms.  And by regs cap has to be distinct.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: kwe1009 on March 30, 2018, 12:25:03 PM
Simply for ease of identification of friend vs foe in a combat/field/response environment, all US personnel and their Auxiliary Forces (CAP, USCGAux, SDFs, etc.) should be in the same working uniform, which was directed by Congress and by law several years ago.

There is zero reason for CAP, USCGAux, SDF, etc. to wear the same uniform and it is best that they are distinctive from the military as to not cause any misconceptions or issues.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: MHC5096 on March 30, 2018, 01:21:15 PM
The Coast Guard Auxiliary already wears the same utility uniform as active duty and reserve component personnel. Other than the branch tape (USCG AUXILIARY vs US COAST GUARD), the color of the embroidery on the ball cap (silver vs gold) and the little "A" device on the insignia, the uniform is virtually identical.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: TheSkyHornet on March 30, 2018, 01:46:58 PM
The Coast Guard Auxiliary already wears the same utility uniform as active duty and reserve component personnel. Other than the branch tape (USCG AUXILIARY vs US COAST GUARD), the color of the embroidery on the ball cap (silver vs gold) and the little "A" device on the insignia, the uniform is virtually identical.

I've said that numerous times before. The USCGAux uniform and Coast Guard uniform are nearly identical. The same for the USNSCC (Sea Cadets) and Navy. They just wear a different name tape and patch, but the color combinations are the same.

I don't get where the distinction got to be this great between CAP and USAF.

I mean, it is what it is. But it peaks my curiosity.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: ZigZag911 on March 30, 2018, 02:29:57 PM
The Navy and Coast Guard appreciate these organizations.

The USAF is much more image conscious.

Frankly, I think their attitude misses the point that there is a substantial group of civilians that actively wantst to support them, but they are more concerned about appearance than anything else.

How fortunate for them that the Post Office (whose uniforms served a the basis for the original USAF uniforms, no kidding!) did not object to that back in 1947-1948: :Hey, these wild fighter pilots dressing like us are ruining our reputation for somber reliability!"
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: HandsomeWalt_USMC on March 30, 2018, 03:31:28 PM
What I don't understand is the members of our organization who want to abandon USAF style uniforms for senior members. Why would you want to distance us further from our parent service?

I get having corporates for people who can't, for one reason or another, wear USAF style uniforms and still wish to serve, but to abandon them entirely seems that it would only serve to increase the rift between CAP and USAF.

If I had my druthers, ALL members able to wear USAF style uniforms would wear them and maintain military grooming and discipline standards. Don't want to act like a professional volunteer in an official auxiliary of a military branch? Fine, go join another organization. There are plenty of service organizations that will allow one to be bearded, long haired, not wear a uniform or salute, etc. If you want to serve in ours, to execute the missions that are particular to CAP, then you play by the USAF's rules. You either care enough about the mission to abide by the rules or you don't.

Of course, I'm also the one who is instituting MANDATORY weigh-ins at my squadron (with the CC's blessing and support IAW the Wing King's stated intent) and calling people out for improper grooming while wearing the AF style uniforms. Individual feelings are less important than the overall image of CAP and the USAF team as a whole.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LATORRECA on March 30, 2018, 03:34:00 PM
What I don't understand is the members of our organization who want to abandon USAF style uniforms for senior members. Why would you want to distance us further from our parent service?

I get having corporates for people who can't, for one reason or another, wear USAF style uniforms and still wish to serve, but to abandon them entirely seems that it would only serve to increase the rift between CAP and USAF.

If I had my druthers, ALL members able to wear USAF style uniforms would wear them and maintain military grooming and discipline standards. Don't want to act like a professional volunteer in an official auxiliary of a military branch? Fine, go join another organization. There are plenty of service organizations that will allow one to be bearded, long haired, not wear a uniform or salute, etc. If you want to serve in ours, to execute the missions that are particular to CAP, then you play by the USAF's rules. You either care enough about the mission to abide by the rules or you don't.

Of course, I'm also the one who is instituting MANDATORY weigh-ins at my squadron (with the CC's blessing and support IAW the Wing King's stated intent) and calling people out for improper grooming while wearing the AF style uniforms. Individual feelings are less important than the overall image of CAP and the USAF team as a whole.
Amen


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: SCE124 on March 30, 2018, 03:53:40 PM
What I don't understand is the members of our organization who want to abandon USAF style uniforms for senior members. Why would you want to distance us further from our parent service?

I get having corporates for people who can't, for one reason or another, wear USAF style uniforms and still wish to serve, but to abandon them entirely seems that it would only serve to increase the rift between CAP and USAF.

If I had my druthers, ALL members able to wear USAF style uniforms would wear them and maintain military grooming and discipline standards. Don't want to act like a professional volunteer in an official auxiliary of a military branch? Fine, go join another organization. There are plenty of service organizations that will allow one to be bearded, long haired, not wear a uniform or salute, etc. If you want to serve in ours, to execute the missions that are particular to CAP, then you play by the USAF's rules. You either care enough about the mission to abide by the rules or you don't.

Of course, I'm also the one who is instituting MANDATORY weigh-ins at my squadron (with the CC's blessing and support IAW the Wing King's stated intent) and calling people out for improper grooming while wearing the AF style uniforms. Individual feelings are less important than the overall image of CAP and the USAF team as a whole.

Very Well said! I couldn't agree more!!!
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Fubar on March 30, 2018, 06:34:10 PM
What I don't understand is the members of our organization who want to abandon USAF style uniforms for senior members. Why would you want to distance us further from our parent service?

Because terminology is important, note that the USAF is not our parent service, no more than the Army Air Corps was when CAP was assigned to them. CAP's actual parent is the Office of Civilian Defense, which of course no longer exists.

The USAF is most certainly a partner and a very important one, even if it's not a partnership of their choosing. As for distancing ourselves from the USAF, I don't see how an independent non-profit corporation choosing an unique uniform that the entire membership can wear distances ourselves from the USAF or any other valuable partner that we have. In fact it would probably help our relationship with the USAF, as they seem extremely concerned with our wearing a variation of their uniform. Think of it as one less point of contention between us and a very important partner. It also helps eliminate the two-class culture that we have that is clearly hurting the feelings of some of our members.

I mean, look at the big picture, should we be pleased as a volunteer organization that we are weighing members solely to allow them to wear certain uniforms?
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on March 30, 2018, 06:50:17 PM
The USAF is most certainly a partner and a very important one, even if it's not a partnership of their choosing. As for distancing ourselves from the USAF, I don't see how an independent non-profit corporation choosing an unique uniform that the entire membership can wear distances ourselves from the USAF or any other valuable partner that we have. In fact it would probably help our relationship with the USAF, as they seem extremely concerned with our wearing a variation of their uniform. Think of it as one less point of contention between us and a very important partner. It also helps eliminate the two-class culture that we have that is clearly hurting the feelings of some of our members.

I mean, look at the big picture, should we be pleased as a volunteer organization that we are weighing members solely to allow them to wear certain uniforms?

THIS x10.

Anyone with experience in CAP knows this is the only real answer, even if they don't like it.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: RiverAux on March 31, 2018, 08:44:45 AM
Quote
Think of it as one less point of contention between us and a very important partner.
A point of contention that mostly exists on CAPTalk rather than out in the real world. 
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Baker on March 31, 2018, 05:43:11 PM
While professionalism and appearance are important;  I don't know if taking a scale to meetings is the best way to encourage volunteers to join CAP.  Its hard enough to get people involved and keep them engaged with the program without the added stresser of making height and weight requirements.  While at the topic every branch of the armed forces is realigning their pt standards to better reflect the missions at hand.  Does this mean that CAP needs to institute a physical test for seniors to be able to ruck march 10 miles in order to wear the ES badge?  Should we have a PT test for senior members in general added to the program?  Where, when and how should CAP try to mirror the Air Force and where should we draw the lines that we are maintaining ourselves as a volunteer organization?

Yes, there are some who should only be in the corporate uniform due to weight.  However even the air force recognizes that some body types are larger than others and has a fallback system (tape test) to compensate for those who are slightly over the table weight.  If we as an organization want to align more to a professional fitness standard then we need to have a similar tape or other catchall standard in addition to the table weights.  If not then the final say on wear of the uniform should fall to the unit commanders discretion on whether the individual maintains a professional appearance or not.

The motivation of wearing a uniform is a key factor, but height and weight are not the be all end all to physical appearance or ability either. 
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on March 31, 2018, 06:09:21 PM
While professionalism and appearance are important;  I don't know if taking a scale to meetings is the best way to encourage volunteers to join CAP.  Its hard enough to get people involved and keep them engaged with the program without the added stresser of making height and weight requirements.  While at the topic every branch of the armed forces is realigning their pt standards to better reflect the missions at hand.  Does this mean that CAP needs to institute a physical test for seniors to be able to ruck march 10 miles in order to wear the ES badge?  Should we have a PT test for senior members in general added to the program?  Where, when and how should CAP try to mirror the Air Force and where should we draw the lines that we are maintaining ourselves as a volunteer organization?

Yes, there are some who should only be in the corporate uniform due to weight.  However even the air force recognizes that some body types are larger than others and has a fallback system (tape test) to compensate for those who are slightly over the table weight.  If we as an organization want to align more to a professional fitness standard then we need to have a similar tape or other catchall standard in addition to the table weights.  If not then the final say on wear of the uniform should fall to the unit commanders discretion on whether the individual maintains a professional appearance or not.

The motivation of wearing a uniform is a key factor, but height and weight are not the be all end all to physical appearance or ability either.

You need to do your homework.  There is no tape test in the AF.  There is your waist, situps, pushups and a run.  If you fail the waist then its a BMI index and that is a very narrow margin to pass.  The AF does not have H/W standards outside of initial entry there is the PT standard based on age.  We have H/W and it's only been recently that there has been any real action on enforcement. 

And yes for CAP if I as a commander want my people to weigh in every meeting  to ensure compliance then they will weigh in or not wear AF style uniforms.  If you sensitive about your weight then you do the right thing and wear corp uniforms.  While there are medical issues than can impact weight there are just some folks who don't care about appearance and will do what they want to do and who cares about the rules.  Bottom line compliance with CAPR39-1 is MANDATORY not when you feel like it. 

If you can't be trusted to follow the simple rules of uniform wear then you can't be trusted with bigger things.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Baker on March 31, 2018, 06:36:56 PM
Incidentally according to AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2905, yes there is.  Check section 3.6.5 before telling me there is no tape test (also known as a BMI check).  Second, you as a commander have full authority to do weight checks as you see fit.  CAP 39-1 is written in black and white, yes it is, however voicing some measure of disagreement in its enforcement is my prerogative as a free individual and I remain steadfast in my previous statement.  I think CAP needs to either have a tape test (also known as a BMI check) of its own or the discretion  should be left to the unit commander. 

You, as a unit commander should be able to choose whether to live on nothing but the regulation or to use better judgement in the case of minor deviations. 
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on March 31, 2018, 06:44:51 PM
You, as a unit commander should be able to choose whether to live on nothing but the regulation or to use better judgement in the case of minor deviations.

Define "minor".
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: arajca on March 31, 2018, 06:47:40 PM
Minor deviations, say 2-3 pounds post holiday festivities, are one thing. Typically, they self-correct within a week or two. Complete disregard of the manual is another. Just because a member can find an AF uniform to fit his 50 lbs over the h/w limits body, doesn't mean he can wear it, even if looks acceptable in it. We have all seen this member far too many times.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Baker on March 31, 2018, 06:59:09 PM
Minor can be whatever its said to be, I would venture within 5%, but again, that's only my opinion.  I've seen lifters way over table weight that bench press 300+ and can ruck for days with a 60 pound pack.  That's why I say there needs to be some discretion allotted to commanders if they have a person like that in their unit.

By no means should a person with a visible gut be wearing the AF uniform, don't get me wrong on that point.  What I've been saying all along is that some sensible discretion can go a long way and if someone is in a command position I tend to trust their better judgement over "just following the regs".
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on March 31, 2018, 07:09:12 PM
Incidentally according to AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2905, yes there is.  Check section 3.6.5 before telling me there is no tape test (also known as a BMI check). 

There is no tape test. And I think I definitively know more about that topic than you. 
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on March 31, 2018, 07:20:05 PM
Abd,

Can you explain how the BMI test is done?

Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on March 31, 2018, 07:25:35 PM
Minor can be whatever its said to be, I would venture within 5%, but again, that's only my opinion.  I've seen lifters way over table weight that bench press 300+ and can ruck for days with a 60 pound pack.  That's why I say there needs to be some discretion allotted to commanders if they have a person like that in their unit.

By no means should a person with a visible gut be wearing the AF uniform, don't get me wrong on that point.  What I've been saying all along is that some sensible discretion can go a long way and if someone is in a command position I tend to trust their better judgement over "just following the regs".

The regs are intended to create a national standard of appearance, one which has been historically largely (heh) ignored by many at some of the highest points
of the organization's leadership.

"5%" of a weight allowance means you're now at 10.5% over the USAF tables the CAP tables were based on.
And how would you even know that number unless you're weighing people?

One of CAP's top 5 failings is the avoidance of uncomfortable conversations in the name of retention,
ultimately defeating the intention, and negatively impacting the organization's credibility both
internally and externally.

As mentioned above, few notice holiday creep, but if you believe that enforcing a standard the membership
has raised their hand and signed their name in a promise to obey will impact retention, then one could rightly
ask where the line of disobedience ends and who gets to decide which regs are "important".

If CAP would enforce all the rules all the time, then change might be forced on the organizaiton in the
form of negative retention, or it may see a general raising of its credibility across the board.

Either is a preferential outcome to what exists today - namely members and commanders empowered to decide which regs are important, and no
ramifications for disobedience.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on March 31, 2018, 07:26:36 PM
Abd,

Can you explain how the BMI test is done?

I can yes.  But I won't not going to be baited.  There is no tape test for the AF and the BMI is not the primary means of determing fitness.
Title: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: goblin on March 31, 2018, 08:08:13 PM
Abd,

Can you explain how the BMI test is done?

I can yes.  But I won't not going to be baited.  There is no tape test for the AF and the BMI is not the primary means of determing fitness.

I’m not sure why everyone is dancing around the phraseology of this.

You get waist measured during the AF PT test (3x)
The average of those 3 measurements is worth 20% of your overall score.

What’s the confusion?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Stonewall on April 01, 2018, 07:19:48 AM
Incidentally according to AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2905, yes there is.  Check section 3.6.5 before telling me there is no tape test (also known as a BMI check). 

There is no tape test. And I think I definitively know more about that topic than you.

The first step of the AF PT test, after signing in, is getting your height and weight checked. This is NOT part of your score and is ONLY used for health awareness. The next step is the abdominal circumference measurement, WHICH IS calculated into your fitness score and is 20% (20 points) of your overall score. Anything over a 39” measurement is FAILING.  And no, it doesn’t matter what size pants you wear because we don’t measure people where they wear their pants, especially for the 20-something crowd who often wear their pants as low as they can.

Your body composition is irrelevant AS LONG as your waist is under 39”.

Even if you have a passing waist measurement, let’s say a 37 1/2”, you can still fail if you don’t do well enough in all, some, or one of the other categories.  In fact, you can get a “passing score” of above 75% and still fail if you failed to meet the minimum in one of the categories.

There are many people in the AF who have guts protruding over their belts because the measurement takes place above the iliac crest, so while their gut may be greater than 39”, where they are actually measured is not.  I have seen this countless times in person over the past 4 years where I’ve filed the role of Physical Training Leader (PTL) and Unit Fitness Program Manager (UFPM). In the past 4 years I have graded or monitored over 1,000 official PT tests. I literally just turned over these duties on Friday to my replacement, so I’d say my information is up to date.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: CAPLTC on April 01, 2018, 10:59:42 AM
Your body composition is irrelevant AS LONG as your waist is under 39”.

Agree, true.
It is a very simplistic and stupid way to calculate anything.
39" is 39" regardless if you are 5'6" or 6'4" ... height plays no factor in the USAF calculation.
Except for the Marines, all the armed services want you to look to be weak and skinny.
Very unhealthy model longterm.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Stonewall on April 01, 2018, 11:54:48 AM
Your body composition is irrelevant AS LONG as your waist is under 39”.

Agree, true.
It is a very simplistic and stupid way to calculate anything.
39" is 39" regardless if you are 5'6" or 6'4" ... height plays no factor in the USAF calculation.
Except for the Marines, all the armed services want you to look to be weak and skinny.
Very unhealthy model longterm.

Won't argue there. Health and fitness are an important part of being a fighting force; most won't argue that. But the fact that Airmen are praised for being thin, and appearing fit, but when it comes down to it, lack strength and endurance. Sure, looking good in uniform is nice, but that should be a secondary effect of being fit to fight and not the goal.

A medical physical should assess your health and a fitness test should evaluate your fitness, one test to test fitness and health is silly.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: wingnut55 on April 01, 2018, 11:59:36 PM
It was announced in the Air Force times that the decision was already made to switch and to have the Airmen turn in their ABUs for replacement, however
the it was not determined on a time line. The immediate replacement would cost  $450million, so a 3 to 4 year phase out would only cost $100 Million, and that may be the final time line.

USAF members returning from the Sand Box are allowed to continue to wear the Army pattern while all JTACs have already converted, it is typical of CAP HQ having a handle on
the latest INTEL, since I knew about the rumors years ago since most USAF personnel in combat had been wearing the Army pattern for almost 10 years????

Maybe that's why the USAF approved CAPs conversion. For me it's another $300.00 CAP FUBAR, and when the change is made I am going to just wear the golf shirt and the flight suit while in support of Greenflag Ops.  I suspect the ABU phase-out will take at least 5 years.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on April 02, 2018, 10:11:13 AM
It was announced in the Air Force times that the decision was already made to switch and to have the Airmen turn in their ABUs for replacement, however
the it was not determined on a time line. The immediate replacement would cost  $450million, so a 3 to 4 year phase out would only cost $100 Million, and that may be the final time line.

USAF members returning from the Sand Box are allowed to continue to wear the Army pattern while all JTACs have already converted, it is typical of CAP HQ having a handle on
the latest INTEL, since I knew about the rumors years ago since most USAF personnel in combat had been wearing the Army pattern for almost 10 years????

Maybe that's why the USAF approved CAPs conversion. For me it's another $300.00 CAP FUBAR, and when the change is made I am going to just wear the golf shirt and the flight suit while in support of Greenflag Ops.  I suspect the ABU phase-out will take at least 5 years.

None of the Times publications are credible sources same with Military.com.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on April 02, 2018, 10:40:09 AM
None of the Times publications are credible sources same with Military.com.

While certainly espousing opinions, to say the various military times publications are not credible
flies in the face of reality.

They are not authoritative, but they are certainly credible on the mean.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LSThiker on April 02, 2018, 10:41:47 AM
Maybe that's why the USAF approved CAPs conversion. For me it's another $300.00 CAP FUBAR, and when the change is made I am going to just wear the golf shirt and the flight suit while in support of Greenflag Ops.  I suspect the ABU phase-out will take at least 5 years.

Let us see:

BDUs approved in 1981; CAP approved 1991 = 10 years post approval + 4 (?) year phase in
ABUs approved in 2007; CAP approved 2016 = 9 years post approval + 5 year phase in
OCPs approved in 2018/2019/2020/... (?); Care to guess when CAP approved?

*Note not going before the BDUs because there were some "variations" on approvals.  For example, female cadets were not allowed fatigues prior to 1974, while male cadets wore them since 1960.

I think you have time to wear those ABUs before CAP gets approval for the OCPs.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Toad1168 on April 02, 2018, 04:05:19 PM
Maybe that's why the USAF approved CAPs conversion. For me it's another $300.00 CAP FUBAR, and when the change is made I am going to just wear the golf shirt and the flight suit while in support of Greenflag Ops.  I suspect the ABU phase-out will take at least 5 years.

Let us see:

BDUs approved in 1981; CAP approved 1991 = 10 years post approval + 4 (?) year phase in
ABUs approved in 2007; CAP approved 2016 = 9 years post approval + 5 year phase in
OCPs approved in 2018/2019/2020/... (?); Care to guess when CAP approved?

*Note not going before the BDUs because there were some "variations" on approvals.  For example, female cadets were not allowed fatigues prior to 1974, while male cadets wore them since 1960.

I think you have time to wear those ABUs before CAP gets approval for the OCPs.

I would even venture to say you would have time to "wear out" the ABUs before CAP gets approval for the OCPs. 
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: kwe1009 on April 02, 2018, 04:55:48 PM
Maybe that's why the USAF approved CAPs conversion. For me it's another $300.00 CAP FUBAR, and when the change is made I am going to just wear the golf shirt and the flight suit while in support of Greenflag Ops.  I suspect the ABU phase-out will take at least 5 years.

Let us see:

BDUs approved in 1981; CAP approved 1991 = 10 years post approval + 4 (?) year phase in
ABUs approved in 2007; CAP approved 2016 = 9 years post approval + 5 year phase in
OCPs approved in 2018/2019/2020/... (?); Care to guess when CAP approved?

BDUs weren't approved for stateside wear until 1987.  Before then BDUs were only worn at overseas bases and some special operations units in the US.

*Note not going before the BDUs because there were some "variations" on approvals.  For example, female cadets were not allowed fatigues prior to 1974, while male cadets wore them since 1960.

I think you have time to wear those ABUs before CAP gets approval for the OCPs.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LATORRECA on April 04, 2018, 12:30:19 PM

      I don’t know what’s worse the ugly ABUs or the CAP-talk when weight in comments are made.
      If the Air Force change to OCP, will be great for CAP. This is because all the surplus of ABU uniform’s items then will make its way to the CAP later on. We don’t need to be in green, woodland camouflage . However I will like it better if we can use sage color boots.
    My 2 cents.


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Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Geber on April 04, 2018, 03:17:54 PM
The good part about surplus is it's often cheap or free. The bad part is the free stuff may not make it's way to a particular unit in the sizes required. Buying used or surplus means trying your luck on eBay. Some may have a well-stocked surplus store not too far away, where one can try things on. Others, like me, have a 100 mile round trip just to get to a Starbucks, never mind a good surplus store.

If/when CAP does a transition, I hope they won't make assumptions about what order OCP items are acquired. The ABU transition assumed members would want to replace the jackets and trousers first, then the Gortex or other cold weather clothing. It would be nice if they would be considerate of those up north, and allow OCP cold weather clothing to be worn over ABU, or vice versa, during a transition period.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Jester on April 04, 2018, 03:42:24 PM

  If the Air Force change to OCP, will be great for CAP. This is because all the surplus of ABU uniform’s items then will make its way to the CAP later on.

Initially, but that will dry up pretty quickly since you only had one branch wearing them for a decade or so.  At least with BDUs, you had 4 branches and numerous other groups wearing them for decades, so there was more of a supply out there and a market that would support producing new ones.

Once ABUs are done, production will at least dwindle over the phase-out period, then cease totally, because nobody else is wearing them.  The surplus stores and ebay stocks will be smaller than BDUs ever were and will disappear quicker.  The only option will be the hot garbage Vanguard sells, and I expect the price to rise accordingly.

I'd say that it shouldn't be an immediate switch, but CAP needs to start seriously looking at it between the announcement and end of the AF's transition period.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LATORRECA on April 04, 2018, 04:07:25 PM

  If the Air Force change to OCP, will be great for CAP. This is because all the surplus of ABU uniform’s items then will make its way to the CAP later on.

Initially, but that will dry up pretty quickly since you only had one branch wearing them for a decade or so.  At least with BDUs, you had 4 branches and numerous other groups wearing them for decades, so there was more of a supply out there and a market that would support producing new ones.

Once ABUs are done, production will at least dwindle over the phase-out period, then cease totally, because nobody else is wearing them.  The surplus stores and ebay stocks will be smaller than BDUs ever were and will disappear quicker.  The only option will be the hot garbage Vanguard sells, and I expect the price to rise accordingly.

I'd say that it shouldn't be an immediate switch, but CAP needs to start seriously looking at it between the announcement and end of the AF's transition period.
   All I'm saying is to let's roll with the punches. I been in this org since 1993 with some broken time in between, another uniform change would not make us or break us. If fat Joe wants to wear the uniform then let them. Or quietly approach them and tell them they are not allow to wear it because of regulations. I don't get bend out of shape because one member. I get mad when senior member try to correct others when they are wrong.
  If the AF is changing uniform so bit. I been in the Marine Corps for the past 20 Years and in true reality the uniform don't make the service is the people in it.  The army has change uniform several times and that doesn't translate to their performance neither the other service.
  Us members of the CAP, we should be worry about whatever we currently have and try to make it better. We should be looking at our internal problems like membership, bad training, mission, and procedure standardization.
   If CAPHq truly care about this problem, then they should publish a white letters telling all the obese members that are wearing the blue uniform to stop and or be expel if they keep using it. The only guy can truly know if you deserve to wear the Blues is themselves. They know if they meet the standard or not.

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Spam on April 04, 2018, 05:59:01 PM

Yeah, no.

I can't say how completely I disagree with your opinions there. Both in terms of core value busts and in terms of logic (the only person who can monitor their compliance is the individual?).

Uniform wear should be the simplest thing in CAP, and its the worst waster of time, due to human egos. There is (in my equally worthless opinion) a strong correlation between the self-denial of noncompliant members who persist in trying to wear USAF styles, and the FAA's 5 hazardous attitudes. Having participated in several "difficult adult conversations" lately on the topic, I'm fine with saying goodbye to a couple of the members involved (who also had prior ops/safety incidents leading to my observation as stated). For such guys, my attitude is, if you can't be honest with yourself about your own weight and balance and want to argue with me about your need to "USAF cosplay", why would I trust you with our airplanes or most importantly our personnel?

I'm just fine with the suspension, etc. actions we've quietly taken recently and the members who've left rather than comply, as they won't be around to push their attitudes and liability onto the team. Its the little things that add up, both positively and negatively.

Spam


References:
- FAA PHAK, Chapter 16, aeronautical decision making, 5 hazardous attitudes at
http://www.avhf.com/html/Library/faa-h-8083-25-4of4.pdf (http://www.avhf.com/html/Library/faa-h-8083-25-4of4.pdf)

- "Pilots who should scare us"
http://johnandmartha.kingschools.com/2014/09/26/pilots-scare-us/ (http://johnandmartha.kingschools.com/2014/09/26/pilots-scare-us/)


Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: shuman14 on April 04, 2018, 10:59:58 PM
Quote
"USAF cosplay"

I just spit Dr. Pepper all over my Laptop! I never laughed so hard, thank you Spam for that!  ;D
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: TheSkyHornet on April 05, 2018, 06:24:30 AM

Yeah, no.

I can't say how completely I disagree with your opinions there. Both in terms of core value busts and in terms of logic (the only person who can monitor their compliance is the individual?).

Uniform wear should be the simplest thing in CAP, and its the worst waster of time, due to human egos. There is (in my equally worthless opinion) a strong correlation between the self-denial of noncompliant members who persist in trying to wear USAF styles, and the FAA's 5 hazardous attitudes. Having participated in several "difficult adult conversations" lately on the topic, I'm fine with saying goodbye to a couple of the members involved (who also had prior ops/safety incidents leading to my observation as stated). For such guys, my attitude is, if you can't be honest with yourself about your own weight and balance and want to argue with me about your need to "USAF cosplay", why would I trust you with our airplanes or most importantly our personnel?

I'm just fine with the suspension, etc. actions we've quietly taken recently and the members who've left rather than comply, as they won't be around to push their attitudes and liability onto the team. Its the little things that add up, both positively and negatively.

Spam


References:
- FAA PHAK, Chapter 16, aeronautical decision making, 5 hazardous attitudes at
http://www.avhf.com/html/Library/faa-h-8083-25-4of4.pdf (http://www.avhf.com/html/Library/faa-h-8083-25-4of4.pdf)

- "Pilots who should scare us"
http://johnandmartha.kingschools.com/2014/09/26/pilots-scare-us/ (http://johnandmartha.kingschools.com/2014/09/26/pilots-scare-us/)

*bows*

*presents food*

*slowly backs away*

 :clap:
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Brit_in_CAP on April 06, 2018, 09:49:09 AM
"USAF cosplay"

Really good!  The former Brit here had to look up the meaning but....really good!   

:clap:

Like shuman14, I nearly drowned on my drink....
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: THRAWN on April 06, 2018, 10:24:19 AM
Sounds like another fantastic opportunity to put everybody in BBDU and be done with the cammie nonsense. But then what ever would we discuss?
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: TheSkyHornet on April 06, 2018, 11:38:48 AM
Sounds like another fantastic opportunity to put everybody in BBDU and be done with the cammie nonsense. But then what ever would we discuss?

Whether or not CAP it Total Force 100% of the time or only during mission assignments
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LATORRECA on April 06, 2018, 04:15:25 PM

Yeah, no.

I can't say how completely I disagree with your opinions there. Both in terms of core value busts and in terms of logic (the only person who can monitor their compliance is the individual?).

Uniform wear should be the simplest thing in CAP, and its the worst waster of time, due to human egos. There is (in my equally worthless opinion) a strong correlation between the self-denial of noncompliant members who persist in trying to wear USAF styles, and the FAA's 5 hazardous attitudes. Having participated in several "difficult adult conversations" lately on the topic, I'm fine with saying goodbye to a couple of the members involved (who also had prior ops/safety incidents leading to my observation as stated). For such guys, my attitude is, if you can't be honest with yourself about your own weight and balance and want to argue with me about your need to "USAF cosplay", why would I trust you with our airplanes or most importantly our personnel?

I'm just fine with the suspension, etc. actions we've quietly taken recently and the members who've left rather than comply, as they won't be around to push their attitudes and liability onto the team. Its the little things that add up, both positively and negatively.

Spam


References:
- FAA PHAK, Chapter 16, aeronautical decision making, 5 hazardous attitudes at
http://www.avhf.com/html/Library/faa-h-8083-25-4of4.pdf (http://www.avhf.com/html/Library/faa-h-8083-25-4of4.pdf)

- "Pilots who should scare us"
http://johnandmartha.kingschools.com/2014/09/26/pilots-scare-us/ (http://johnandmartha.kingschools.com/2014/09/26/pilots-scare-us/)

     After so long in CAP, I do agree about the following, be in the proper uniforms in order to flight only for insurance purposes or to show some uniformity. I guess is cool for someone to wear the USAF, jeez! I used it, however I do not worry about the group of guys here (CAPTALK). I worry about the other hundreds upon hundreds of Senior member that if you really ask them where to find the regulations about uniforms, white letters, addendum or inserts about the 39-1 or uniforms, they won’t be able to tell you.

      I agree with changing to BBDU and finish this nonsense.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: CAPLTC on April 08, 2018, 05:20:16 PM
Uniform wear should be the simplest thing in CAP, and its the worst waster of time, due to human egos.
There is (in my equally worthless opinion) a strong correlation between the self-denial of noncompliant members who persist in trying to wear USAF styles, and the FAA's 5 hazardous attitudes.
Having participated in several "difficult adult conversations" lately on the topic, I'm fine with saying goodbye to a couple of the members involved (who also had prior ops/safety incidents leading to my observation as stated).
For such guys, my attitude is, if you can't be honest with yourself about your own weight and balance and want to argue with me about your need to "USAF cosplay", why would I trust you with our airplanes or most importantly our personnel?

Preach it brother.
Nowhere in my professional or military career do I see more focus on uniform "stuff" than in CAP.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: GZCP31 on April 09, 2018, 10:05:11 AM
Sounds like another fantastic opportunity to put everybody in BBDU and be done with the cammie nonsense. But then what ever would we discuss?

Something not everyone understands. The Camo is somewhat cooler in the summer than the BBDUs in the Southern United States due to its lighter color. When it is over 100F for several days with the sun beating down on you, and nights in the 80s or 90s the BBDUs are the worst uniform. They just absorb the heat.  Something closer to tan is much better. I would love to see a modified short sleeve WWII Khaki uniform come back for summer use as it would worked well, especially with tactical cargo pants. For this uniform, use the Propper Battle - Rip Short Sleeve Dress Shirt in Khaki and PROPPER Ripstop BDU Uniform Trousers as the combination. This this you could stay much cooler in the heat.

The Whites and Greys are not a great work uniform but it could save you from heat exhaustion. Just authorizing a white polo would be great. Add dark navy name and pilot embroidery and it would be a great summer uniform combination. 

Sometimes functionality is better that how you look.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: chuckmilam on April 09, 2018, 10:44:01 AM
White?  I can see the pit stains and ring-around-the-collar already.  The dark may be hot, but it at least hides the poor laundering habits of some folks. 
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: THRAWN on April 09, 2018, 10:47:34 AM
Bunk.

The southern part of the country does not have a monopoly on heat and humidity and if you're unable to take proper precautions to prevent heat injuries, no color of fabric is going to help you. There are probably somewhere in the area of a few hundred police departments in "the south" that wear dark colored duty uniforms and for a lot longer than the vast majority of CAP members do. How is it that they can function without falling down every 30 feet from heat exhaustion and we can't?

Sounds like another fantastic opportunity to put everybody in BBDU and be done with the cammie nonsense. But then what ever would we discuss?

Something not everyone understands. The Camo is somewhat cooler in the summer than the BBDUs in the Southern United States due to its lighter color. When it is over 100F for several days with the sun beating down on you, and nights in the 80s or 90s the BBDUs are the worst uniform. They just absorb the heat.  Something closer to tan is much better. I would love to see a modified short sleeve WWII Khaki uniform come back for summer use as it would worked well, especially with tactical cargo pants. For this uniform, use the Propper Battle - Rip Short Sleeve Dress Shirt in Khaki and PROPPER Ripstop BDU Uniform Trousers as the combination. This this you could stay much cooler in the heat.

The Whites and Greys are not a great work uniform but it could save you from heat exhaustion. Just authorizing a white polo would be great. Add dark navy name and pilot embroidery and it would be a great summer uniform combination. 

Sometimes functionality is better that how you look.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: GZCP31 on April 09, 2018, 11:07:36 AM
How is it that they can function without falling down every 30 feet from heat exhaustion and we can't?



It is called acclimating/conditioning. Quite a few of the  members that are in the BBDU are not in the best of shape. Training and conditioning to the BBDU and the corporate flight suit, would be the best option. I do not know of anyone in CAP that wears their uniform on a daily basis to work in. Giving a lighter, cooler option is an alternative.

Part of the uniforms for LEOs in the south also include their body armor and most use wicking undershirts which help. Other things such as air conditioned patrol cars also give a break from the heat. Most departments I have seen in Texas have alternative uniforms that are shorts and t-shirts as part of the summer duty uniforms for events. Most have short-sleeve uniforms and some have alternative colors for extended outdoor duty. 

Take a look at the departments that spend a majority of their time in the woods or in the field away from air conditioning and buildings. They are the ones wearing the lighter color uniforms. Border Patrol, Parks and Wildlife, Fish and Game all use Khakis or something close.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: THRAWN on April 09, 2018, 11:32:09 AM
Again, bunk. Training and conditioning?

This is a question for all the SE types: how many heat related injuries have been reported that are directly attributed to the BBDU? Anybody? Over/under on this?

The garment comes in various weights, just the same as the BDU. There are wicking undergarments available. AETC puts out annual guidance on the prevention of heat related injuries. When it's hot out, don't wear the winter weight. Increase water intake. Remove the coat. Provide cooling breaks. This is not difficult.

How is it that they can function without falling down every 30 feet from heat exhaustion and we can't?



It is called acclimating/conditioning. Quite a few of the  members that are in the BBDU are not in the best of shape. Training and conditioning to the BBDU and the corporate flight suit, would be the best option. I do not know of anyone in CAP that wears their uniform on a daily basis to work in. Giving a lighter, cooler option is an alternative.

Part of the uniforms for LEOs in the south also include their body armor and most use wicking undershirts which help. Other things such as air conditioned patrol cars also give a break from the heat. Most departments I have seen in Texas have alternative uniforms that are shorts and t-shirts as part of the summer duty uniforms for events. Most have short-sleeve uniforms and some have alternative colors for extended outdoor duty. 

Take a look at the departments that spend a majority of their time in the woods or in the field away from air conditioning and buildings. They are the ones wearing the lighter color uniforms. Border Patrol, Parks and Wildlife, Fish and Game all use Khakis or something close.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: GZCP31 on April 09, 2018, 11:46:49 AM
I am not going to get in to an argument. Training and Conditioning do play a part, so do cooling breaks. Uniforms also play a part in the total picture for heat (or cold) related injury.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LSThiker on April 09, 2018, 12:05:44 PM
Again, bunk. Training and conditioning?

This is a question for all the SE types: how many heat related injuries have been reported that are directly attributed to the BBDU? Anybody? Over/under on this?

The garment comes in various weights, just the same as the BDU. There are wicking undergarments available. AETC puts out annual guidance on the prevention of heat related injuries. When it's hot out, don't wear the winter weight. Increase water intake. Remove the coat. Provide cooling breaks. This is not difficult.

Fabric color does play a part in heat transfer.  That is, dark clothes are worse than lighter clothes, which was has been studied.  For example Stoll and Chianta studied this in 1971, which found lighter was better.  However, in 1980 Shkolnik et al. published the article trying to explain why it is better to wear black in the desert as they studied the Bedouins, which wear black robes.  Unfortunately, fabric has changed and emphasis has not put any new additional studies on the subject.  Today, while conventional wisdom goes with lighter is better than dark, I do not think it matters as much as other factors.  With changes in fabric technology, the type of fabric matters more than the color, but is still part of the equation.

As I have worn both CFU and the BDUs, I do not think it matters.  There are numerous factors that play into heat injury.
Is the person acclimatized to a hot environment?  Living in the South does not acclimatize you to the heat if you spend 90% of your day in AC, as opposed to a person that lives in the North and performs hard labor outside in low 90s. 
Is the person physically fit?  The more fit you are, statistically the better you are able to handle heat stress.
Is the person drinking enough water?
Does the person have restricted airflow?  (tactical vest vs backpack vs nothing)
Type of fabric?
Type of work?
Humidity?

I doubt that you could even control for various factors when trying to compare Blue CFU to BDUs to ABUs.  There is just too many variables if you perform a meta-analysis on heat injuries for CAP.   Nevertheless, I doubt there is any significant (p<0.05) difference between the CFU and BDUs in regards to heat injury.

Hot is hot no matter the color you wear.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: CAPLTC on April 12, 2018, 11:15:33 PM
Hot is hot no matter the color you wear.

I had not considered his point, but he's correct.
Dark navy blue is indeed a poor choice in a Texas summer. So are woodland BDUs...
100% cotton BDUs soak up sweat and hold on to it, even on a hot, sunny 0% humid desert day they remain wet and yucky.

The CENTCOM-AOR issue FRACU in Multicam is probably the best uniform we've ever been issued.
Not on our menu of options though... :)
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LSThiker on April 13, 2018, 12:07:50 AM
I had not considered his point, but he's correct.
Dark navy blue is indeed a poor choice in a Texas summer. So are woodland BDUs...
100% cotton BDUs soak up sweat and hold on to it, even on a hot, sunny 0% humid desert day they remain wet and yucky.

The CENTCOM-AOR issue FRACU in Multicam is probably the best uniform we've ever been issued.
Not on our menu of options though... :)

I own very little cotton.  Pretty much the only cotton I own is either dress shirts for work, which are really cotton/polyester blends, or uniform parts for CAP, such as the cotton/polyester ripstop BDUs or cotton shorts, shirts, and underwear for flying (Nomex).  When out backpacking, whether it is 30F or 100F, I wear a mixture of merino wool, nylon, and/or polyester.  That is exactly the reason though, 100% cotton sucks up water and holds it.  Just not that great of an outdoor fabric anymore, when caught in a rainstorm or during a water crossing 

Interestingly, the FRACUs are 10% nylon, 65% FR-Rayon, and 25% Para-Aramid.   

I actually find the corporate polo with tactical pants to be best option for GT work in the hot summer heat (regardless of whether you are in the far North or far South, as I have been).  Just wish they would get "tactical" polo long sleeve shirts.  Nevertheless, as a person that has worn both the CFU and BDUs in both the North and South summers for extended periods of time, I can honestly say that there is no difference due to color.  They are both hot due to poor fabric choices and restricted airflow.  I would take backpacking 20 miles in west Texas heat while wearing performance outdoor gear over having to do GT work in the North summer with BDUs any day of the week (if I really had an option).

The FRACUs were so much better in the Middle East heat, then regular ACUs in Fort Sam Houston during summer.     
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: chuckmilam on April 13, 2018, 08:48:29 AM
The new 100% poly material corporate working uniform (AKA the golf/polo shirt) is a tremendous improvement over the old knit cotton version.  It's more wrinkle-resistant, feels much cooler (in both senses of the word), and doesn't act like a lint trap in the dryer.  Months later, I'm still picking lint off my old cotton version from when some soft white baby laundry got mixed in with my CAP laundry. 
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Dwight Dutton on April 13, 2018, 10:53:03 AM
The Whites and Greys are not a great work uniform but it could save you from heat exhaustion. Just authorizing a white polo would be great. Add dark navy name and pilot embroidery and it would be a great summer uniform combination.  Sometimes functionality is better that how you look.

We HAD a white polo shirt.  It was one of those rare cases where a uniform item was phased out that had no replacement.  Naturally it was one we needed.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Spam on April 13, 2018, 11:59:54 AM
The Whites and Greys are not a great work uniform but it could save you from heat exhaustion. Just authorizing a white polo would be great. Add dark navy name and pilot embroidery and it would be a great summer uniform combination.  Sometimes functionality is better that how you look.

We HAD a white polo shirt.  It was one of those rare cases where a uniform item was phased out that had no replacement.  Naturally it was one we needed.

The other being the CAP Guayabera shirt, which was expressly designed for hot weather use, and was removed without replacement. I was serving in FLWG at the time and recall a number of members commenting on how comfortable it was in very hot, muggy weather.

(Good enough for Reagan to wear... good enough for me)

V/r
Spam

Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: SarDragon on April 13, 2018, 04:15:23 PM
The white polo went away because of quality issues - the emblem was silk-screened, and didn't suffer repeated washings well, and it was white - got dirty quickly, and needed washing more often.

The guayabera was ugly. For all its comfort, it didn't really fit in as a uniform. It was even too informal to go with the polo crowd. Being a medium dark blue, it still had heat issues.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on April 13, 2018, 05:13:37 PM
>Anyone< trying to make hay about "heat stress" in regards to CAP's multiform doesn't understand the
question. The multiform is not mission focused, nor mission fulfilling, so that isn't even a factor for
>any< of the field uniforms. The same goes for cold-weather gear.

Look to the BSA, or your local PD/FD/EMS team for ways in which mission-focused organizations
have solved heat and similar issues.  Shorts, advanced fabrics with vented panels, etc., etc.

The multiform exists as it does today solely because of compromises aimed at retention
and affectation of military appearance.

You can argue on the dress uniforms the need to continue a military appearance for those involved
with cadets, since dress and appearance are a literal part of the program (though the detriment
to that same program many in leadership do because they can't read a scale, seems to be lost
on many of the same folks who argue how critical those garments are.)

But for Operations and "real" work in the field? It's all about the affectation and nothing about
the mission, regardless of whether you choose a vector of materials, construction, sourcing,
or how they are configured and worn.

The golf shirt and tac pants are all that's needed for 90% of an adult CAP member's career,
including most "field" work (in which "field" = the local forest preserve where CAP members
walk around in plate carriers with a Normandy-level of gear while surrounded by picnickers in
shorts, and in full view of a McD's and a Motel 4), and for the small number who go to
NESA, HMRS, or similar, or who somehow find themselves in a legit austere situation,
they can get the long sleeve shirt and a jacket...
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: sardak on April 14, 2018, 12:29:09 AM
Never thought I'd find a use for these pics. A white polo and white guayabera, at a cutting edge, computerized mission base!

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/799/26571825557_dd21a9507f_b.jpg)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/791/26571826007_9900c2d47a_b.jpg)
sardak on Flickr
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on April 14, 2018, 09:03:08 AM
Is that a computer or a microwave?

 >:D



Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on April 14, 2018, 09:37:14 AM
Not sure which is sadder...

1 - I owned that shirt.

2 - I owned that PC.

3 - I owned that printer.

Bonus.  I also owned that pen, but it was a nice pen.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: NIN on April 14, 2018, 09:51:18 AM
Is that a computer or a microwave?

 >:D
Why can't it be both?
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on April 14, 2018, 02:32:25 PM
Now I remember this!

At the time it was said that TVs had some radiation in front of the screen. If this was true, the technology of that photo makes it also a microwave...
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: SarDragon on April 14, 2018, 03:39:55 PM
Now I remember this!

At the time it was said that TVs had some radiation in front of the screen. If this was true, the technology of that photo makes it also a microwave...

Uuummm...  not really. It's all about frequencies/wavelengths.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on April 14, 2018, 04:37:05 PM
I know, these responses were somewhat in a light-hearted attempt.

For what it may be worth, and I do not know if this is still true, but the Guayabera was seen a great office wear in some Hispanic countries some time ago. More dressed up to work than wearing a polo to work that some here praise so much.

Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: SarDragon on April 14, 2018, 08:18:19 PM
CAP called it the Summer Shirt, which was initially available in dark blue. Later they added a  white version. The blue one went away around 1991, and then there was just the white one. It was worn in the late '80s and early '90s.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on April 14, 2018, 08:36:29 PM
Eclipse, what were you doing in CAP at the time of the photos ya posted?

Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on April 14, 2018, 08:57:40 PM
Eclipse, what were you doing in CAP at the time of the photos ya posted?

Very little - I joined in '99, and didn't really do much at the unit I was in until early 2002
when I moved to Group staff. 

A few missions and lots of weekly meetings and not much else.

Once I moved up all bets were off from there.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Dwight Dutton on April 15, 2018, 01:57:54 PM
CAP called it the Summer Shirt, which was initially available in dark blue. Later they added a  white version. The blue one went away around 1991, and then there was just the white one. It was worn in the late '80s and early '90s.

Defining my inactive period.  I had one of the blue ones, but never even knew about the white one until now.  Considering the condition I frequently see aviator shirts in, I understand phasing them out for the laundry issues....
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 08, 2018, 12:37:14 PM
http://www.kirtland.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/1506604/sfg-will-wear-new-uniforms-beginning-may-1/

(https://media.defense.gov/2018/Apr/30/2001910009/780/780/0/180423-F-CJ792-0035.JPG)

"U.S. Air Force Staff Sgt. Kedwin Alvarado-Cortes, Security Support Squadron vehicle control officer, assists Senior Airman Justin Reeves, 377th Security Support Squadron vehicle control officer, with operational camouflage pattern uniforms and gear issue at Kirtland Air Force Base, N.M., April 23. All defenders on Kirtland will wear the OCP uniform starting May 1."
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on May 08, 2018, 02:03:51 PM
I'll be out by the time it gets fully implemented.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on May 08, 2018, 04:20:05 PM
You know, I can see the cops wearing it in CONUS.  But why is SSgt Billy Bob, who is a Jet Engine Mechanic over in the Test Cell, need to wear camo?
It can be issued to him in the Deployment Line if he needs it when he gets deployed. Just like they do right now.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 08, 2018, 06:03:39 PM
You know, I can see the cops wearing it in CONUS.  But why is SSgt Billy Bob, who is a Jet Engine Mechanic over in the Test Cell, need to wear camo?

Do you mean camo in general or OCPS?

If it's the former I agree (FWIW), the latter because the entire service will be in them by year's end.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on May 08, 2018, 07:03:43 PM
It is cheaper to have the entire force wearing as close as possible one uniform versus having mechanics wearing a different uniform than Policemen...


 :P
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on May 08, 2018, 07:44:22 PM
It is cheaper to have the entire force wearing as close as possible one uniform versus having mechanics wearing a different uniform than Policemen...


 :P

Last time I checked, the Blue BDU's were a lot cheaper then the OCP uniform.

"Something.. something.. 'second class citizen' something.."
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 09, 2018, 01:38:17 PM
https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/05/08/secaf-asks-airmen-opinion-ocp-uniform-tries-it-out-herself.html

(https://images01.military.com/sites/default/files/styles/full/public/2018-05/heather-wilson-helmet-1800.jpg)

"HURLBURT FIELD, Fla. -- As the U.S. Air Force debates switching from its Airman Battle Uniform (ABU) to the Army's Operational Camouflage Pattern (OCP) uniform, troops here gave Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson a sneak peek into the possible replacement's fit and function.

Wilson changed into an OCP-pattern uniform Thursday before attending a mission demonstration by an Air Force Special Operations Command special tactics team at Hurlburt and Eglin Air Force Base's training ranges."
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: etodd on May 09, 2018, 05:59:57 PM
Camo is still just so non-sensical for ground team members, or any CAP member for that matter. Our folks should NOT be hiding in the forest. We are not in combat. We should stick out like a sore thumb in bright orange shirts. LOL
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: SarDragon on May 09, 2018, 06:52:50 PM
Camo is still just so non-sensical for ground team members, or any CAP member for that matter. Our folks should NOT be hiding in the forest. We are not in combat. We should stick out like a sore thumb in bright orange shirts. LOL

CAWG has been trying to do that for years, and it keeps getting shot down up the chain.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: etodd on May 09, 2018, 07:57:10 PM
Camo is still just so non-sensical for ground team members, or any CAP member for that matter. Our folks should NOT be hiding in the forest. We are not in combat. We should stick out like a sore thumb in bright orange shirts. LOL

CAWG has been trying to do that for years, and it keeps getting shot down up the chain.

Where "up the chain"?  CAP hdqrs, or in AF levels?
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: SarDragon on May 09, 2018, 07:59:46 PM
Apparently, both. Way below my pay grade.

Do a search for orange shirt. there are 150+ posts with one or both words. That should give you some insight on the whys, whens and hows.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on May 09, 2018, 08:41:04 PM
Camo is still just so non-sensical for ground team members, or any CAP member for that matter. Our folks should NOT be hiding in the forest. We are not in combat. We should stick out like a sore thumb in bright orange shirts. LOL

Well considering that you're supposed to be wearing an orange vest when you're out on a Ground Team mission.
What good would an orange shirt do?
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: etodd on May 09, 2018, 08:58:58 PM
Camo is still just so non-sensical for ground team members, or any CAP member for that matter. Our folks should NOT be hiding in the forest. We are not in combat. We should stick out like a sore thumb in bright orange shirts. LOL

Well considering that you're supposed to be wearing an orange vest when you're out on a Ground Team mission.
What good would an orange shirt do?

Skirting the point.  Ground team members or any other CAP members have no real world need for camo of any kind. Its never made sense from day one. (Other than some free hand-me-downs from the AF I suppose)
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on May 09, 2018, 09:05:05 PM
We did not hear any issue when CAP was wearing the OG uniforms...

"Why the OGs?" "Why not more visibility...?"

We did not hear any issue when CAP was wearing the Khakis during WWII...

Why now with the camos? Again, it is not that we want to hide, but connection with the military.

Remember not all our activities are in forests.


Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on May 09, 2018, 09:15:05 PM
Camo is still just so non-sensical for ground team members, or any CAP member for that matter. Our folks should NOT be hiding in the forest. We are not in combat. We should stick out like a sore thumb in bright orange shirts. LOL

Well considering that you're supposed to be wearing an orange vest when you're out on a Ground Team mission.
What good would an orange shirt do?

Skirting the point.  Ground team members or any other CAP members have no real world need for camo of any kind. Its never made sense from day one. (Other than some free hand-me-downs from the AF I suppose)

You're about 40 years late to this party. Because this was the exact same argument that was used when we went to the BDU's in the 80's.
You can see how well it worked...
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: etodd on May 09, 2018, 09:29:07 PM


You're about 40 years late to this party. Because this was the exact same argument that was used when we went to the BDU's in the 80's.
You can see how well it worked...


Yep.  Doesn't affect me either way, since I don't wear it. It just amuses me, trying to decipher the "why" of it.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LSThiker on May 09, 2018, 10:54:40 PM
Apparently, both. Way below my pay grade.

Do a search for orange shirt. there are 150+ posts with one or both words. That should give you some insight on the whys, whens and hows.

California wing is not the only wing to try this.  TXWG has done this recently as well:
https://www.txwgcap.org/documents/2013/12/cap-uniform-manual.pdf/
Quote
1-5d (added). Texas Wing Advanced Ground Team Uniform.  The Texas Wing Advanced Ground Team Uniform is an orange shirt with blue BDUs.  It may be worn with or without the Texas Wing ES Baseball Cap.

They also have an entire curriculum set up for AGT:
https://www.txwgcap.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/f06a7af0298c65341b8f925142153ce8.pdf

Do not know if this is still in use in TXWG or if it has gotten smashed by the new WG/CC
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LSThiker on May 09, 2018, 11:18:05 PM
(https://media.defense.gov/2018/Apr/30/2001910009/780/780/0/180423-F-CJ792-0035.JPG)

Is the USAF now going to be doing combat patches? 

(https://images01.military.com/sites/default/files/styles/full/public/2018-05/heather-wilson-helmet-1800.jpg)


And left shoulder squadron/group/wing/command patches?
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: I_Am_Twigs on May 10, 2018, 12:56:15 AM
I personally think that we wear camo to spark interest in others. I remember going to my first meeting and seeing everyone in BDUs, I thought "man, I bet I'd look good one a pair of those." (I actually look somewhat odd with them). I ended up joining for the uniforms, I later found out that it wasn't worth it. So I became a "floater" I guess you could say, then I has I matured a bit I saw the opportunity that I had. I could go through CAP and experience things that I wouldn't have anywhere else, and now it's given me a higher chance of getting my dream job.
Bottom line: Uniforms (especially camo uniforms) makes people think about joining. Granted not everyone is going to go down the same path as me but there are the few that might have a similar experience waiting for them
Anyway this was just my cheesy thoughts  :P

Thank you, this has been ramble and scramble with Chief Twigs
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: sardak on May 10, 2018, 01:00:21 AM
We did not hear any issue when CAP was wearing the OG uniforms...

"Why the OGs?" "Why not more visibility...?"
California and Colorado Wings were wearing orange shirts during the OG days.

Arizona Wing has orange polos and T's, with reflective striping. Long sleeve shirts, too, but I couldn't find pictures.

(https://scontent.fapa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17953021_1419174228106113_3099066001805910485_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=5f0c1eabc19777445c36a05077442e26&oe=5B84D89D)

Mike
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on May 10, 2018, 01:13:06 AM
We did not hear any issue when CAP was wearing the OG uniforms...

"Why the OGs?" "Why not more visibility...?"
California and Colorado Wings were wearing orange shirts during the OG days.

Arizona Wing has orange polos and T's, with reflective striping. Long sleeve shirts, too, but I couldn't find pictures.

(https://scontent.fapa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17953021_1419174228106113_3099066001805910485_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=5f0c1eabc19777445c36a05077442e26&oe=5B84D89D)

Mike

Now, are those Arizona Wing shirts authorized? I couldn't find a NHQ Approved Supplement on the National Headquarters page and publications are in the members only section of the Arizona Wing Web Page. And they're not authorized in the CAPM 39-1.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Jester on May 10, 2018, 08:22:18 AM
(https://media.defense.gov/2018/Apr/30/2001910009/780/780/0/180423-F-CJ792-0035.JPG)

Is the USAF now going to be doing combat patches? 

(https://images01.military.com/sites/default/files/styles/full/public/2018-05/heather-wilson-helmet-1800.jpg)


And left shoulder squadron/group/wing/command patches?

I’ve seen group/wing on the left and squadron on the right.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LSThiker on May 10, 2018, 09:54:14 AM
Arizona Wing has orange polos and T's, with reflective striping. Long sleeve shirts, too, but I couldn't find pictures.

Mike

I like this for SAREXs and real missions.  Senior members wear an orange polo with wing patch for ground and FL work.  Members could wear either BDU/ABU/CFU pants so that way members would only need to purchase the polo shirt.  Looks more inline with other SAR groups that I have seen/worked with. 

But then again, I would be happy if Senior Members just did away with BDUs/ABUs and just wore the polo (keep the associated USAF-style and corporate dress uniforms though).  The cadets could continue to wear the BDUs/ABUs due to the military cadet program connection.  Until then, I still have a pair of BBDUs in my closet for SAREXs.     >:D
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LSThiker on May 10, 2018, 10:01:31 AM
I’ve seen group/wing on the left and squadron on the right.

Interesting. 

Well when CAP goes to OCPs in 10 years, at least cadets will be able to play "swap" the NCSA patch game.  Start the meeting wearing NESA patch and end wearing the NBB patch or some variation thereof.  Or perhaps we will have wing patches on the left shoulder and squadron patches on the right and no NCSA patches (doubt that though).  Or they will have to choose between Squadron patch and NCSA patch (most likely).  We will see in 10 or so years, I guess.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: kwe1009 on May 10, 2018, 12:09:40 PM
I’ve seen group/wing on the left and squadron on the right.

Interesting. 

Well when CAP goes to OCPs in 10 years, at least cadets will be able to play "swap" the NCSA patch game.  Start the meeting wearing NESA patch and end wearing the NBB patch or some variation thereof.  Or perhaps we will have wing patches on the left shoulder and squadron patches on the right and no NCSA patches (doubt that though).  Or they will have to choose between Squadron patch and NCSA patch (most likely).  We will see in 10 or so years, I guess.

It might be sooner that that.  If the USAF goes to OCP this year I doubt there is enough ABUs to last CAP 10 years unless you count the crappier versions that VG sells.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 10, 2018, 12:13:46 PM
There will be a surge in the Fall and early next year of ABUs that are not much use to CAP
because of size, wear, or stripe-mark issues.

After that, it's going to be the same retail channels as the CFU and camo BDU.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: etodd on May 10, 2018, 02:32:02 PM

(https://scontent.fapa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17953021_1419174228106113_3099066001805910485_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=5f0c1eabc19777445c36a05077442e26&oe=5B84D89D)


^^^ Comfortable and very practical. Great way to go for Seniors.  Agree with the other poster in regards to Cadets who might be thinking of a military career. Cadets are wholly different.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LSThiker on May 10, 2018, 03:54:39 PM
It might be sooner that that.  If the USAF goes to OCP this year I doubt there is enough ABUs to last CAP 10 years unless you count the crappier versions that VG sells.

I would not mind (barring cost) if CAP were to transition to OCPs in less than 10 years.  Less uniform errors; much easier to correct.  Cannot really screw up rank insignia, name tapes, CAP tape, patches.  Wash and wear uniform.  If there is a mistake, reapply in 2 seconds.  I guess Cadets will not know what to do with the extra time from not having to do OCP uniform inspections. 

Please, won't someone think of the children errr....Cadets.   :)

Overall, I liked the design of the ACUs over the BDUs, except the UCP color.  I wonder though, if CAP goes to OCPs, will Blue BDUs be transitioned to an OCP design--perhaps like Stonewall has suggested a few times before?

Anyway, all in due time I suppose.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LATORRECA on May 11, 2018, 03:04:18 PM
Hey PHall

Remember this:

Navy Announces Elimination of NWU Type I
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=30630&share_tid=21329&share_pid=392972&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ecaptalk%2Enet%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D21329%2Emsg392972%23msg392972&share_type=t

I was right or not.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: CAPLTC on May 13, 2018, 08:37:21 AM
CAP will be in OCP within 36 months of the USAF's formal announcement.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on May 13, 2018, 09:07:20 AM
CAP will be in OCP within 36 months of the USAF's formal announcement.

Doubtful considerig how long it took them to fix 39-1 and the transtition to ABUs
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: CAPLTC on May 13, 2018, 09:20:07 AM
Doubtful considerig how long it took them to fix 39-1 and the transtition to ABUs

It will happen fast.
So fast, CAPTalk won't even know what happened.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: chuckmilam on May 13, 2018, 09:21:26 AM
CAP will be in OCP within 36 months of the USAF's formal announcement.

Since I finally just got myself a complete set of ABUs including the parka, this seems about par for the course that we'd change soon after.  That's the kind of luck I have. 

Still, believe it when I see it.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on May 13, 2018, 03:39:02 PM
Doubtful considerig how long it took them to fix 39-1 and the transtition to ABUs

It will happen fast.
So fast, CAPTalk won't even know what happened.

Cite... otherwise hearsay and pot stirring....
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: shuman14 on May 14, 2018, 11:27:02 AM
Quote
Quote
I’ve seen group/wing on the left and squadron on the right.

Isn't that how the USAF used to do the patches on the Woodland/Desert BDU breast pockets?
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on May 14, 2018, 11:58:45 AM
Quote
Quote
I’ve seen group/wing on the left and squadron on the right.

Isn't that how the USAF used to do the patches on the Woodland/Desert BDU breast pockets?

Yes and no.  It depended on the MAJCOM and other aspects.  In my 20 years I only wore a wing patch once and that was in Korea.  My BDU patches only consisted of tapes, stripes, function badge,  SF badge and MAJCOM patch.  Even deployed never wore a wing, group or sq patch.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: MisterCD on May 14, 2018, 12:31:17 PM
And here. we. go.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/05/14/its-official-air-force-switching-armys-ocp-uniform.html#
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 14, 2018, 12:53:41 PM
For those skeptics, an official source:

http://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/1520066/air-force-transitions-to-a-single-combat-uniform/

(https://media.defense.gov/2018/May/14/2001916685/780/780/0/180514-F-WB620-001.JPG)

Starting Oct. 1, 2018, Airmen who have serviceable OCPs may wear the uniform, and Airmen can purchase OCPs at Army and Air Force Exchange Services at the following locations: Aviano Air Base, Italy; Charleston Air Force Base, South Carolina; Shaw Air Force Base, South Carolina; and MacDill Air Force Base, Florida. These initial locations will allow uniform manufacturers to produce additional stocks for other locations, eventually outfitting the total force in the coming months.

The service will fully transition to OCPs by April 1, 2021.


(http://www.af.mil/Portals/1/images/2/Timeline.jpg?ver=2018-05-14-112500-893)

(http://www.af.mil/Portals/1/images/2/Patches.jpg)

Sooo...

By encampment season next year, finding anyone but CAP in ABUs will be difficult (though it's likely
Reservists will be the last to generally change), and as conjectured here a number of times, by the time
CAP is transitioned into ABUs, the parent service will be long out of them.

#TotalForce
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on May 14, 2018, 02:09:10 PM
It wasn't a question of if but when.   
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Starbird on May 14, 2018, 03:21:25 PM
Amazing... as soon as we phase the abus in, the Air Force phases them out.... -_- *facepalm*

As a side note, if CAP starts phasing OCPs in before 2021, we will have THREE camo fatigue uniforms worn by members, the BBDU, the polo, and the FDU and BFDU... brining our total number of working uniforms to SEVEN.  If we could only cut this to just one corporate working uniform, the FDU, one military camo uniform, and the polo?  Just a thought.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: supertigerCH on May 14, 2018, 03:34:49 PM


almost would rather that CAP had transitioned directly from the BDU uniform...

straight into the newer OCP


oh well.  it is what it is.  in the mean time just step up & help the Air Force burn through all their surplus ABU uniforms... and make the ABU look as best we can during these years while CAP is wearing it.

for those out there getting too upset... just be glad our uniforms look decent these days... since the upgrade a few years ago to the dark blue name tapes and rank.  that change honestly makes just about anything we wear look 10X more professional. 

OCP uniforms are super cool, but you wont hear any complaints from me.

Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 14, 2018, 04:05:19 PM
one military camo uniform field uniform that fulfills the mission, and the polo?  Just a thought.

What's the obsession with camo?  It doesn't even serve a purpose for the USAF in quarters, let alone for
CAP field use.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Offutteer on May 14, 2018, 04:15:21 PM
So af.mil is saying that the Air Force will start to wear the U.S. flag on their uniforms?  That's interesting...
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on May 14, 2018, 05:01:01 PM
So af.mil is saying that the Air Force will start to wear the U.S. flag on their uniforms?  That's interesting...

That's because they're copying what the Army does. Same deal with the nametape on the back of the patrol cap.
As per the Air Force Link web site.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: NIN on May 14, 2018, 05:32:34 PM
Hey, look, no more green boots.

Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on May 14, 2018, 05:36:33 PM
Amazing... as soon as we phase the abus in, the Air Force phases them out.... -_- *facepalm*

As a side note, if CAP starts phasing OCPs in before 2021, we will have THREE camo fatigue uniforms worn by members, the BBDU, the polo, and the FDU and BFDU... brining our total number of working uniforms to SEVEN.  If we could only cut this to just one corporate working uniform, the FDU, one military camo uniform, and the polo?  Just a thought.

Don't put the horse before the cart.  There's a good chance that the prohibition that was in place in regards to the ABU is there for OCPs. 
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LATORRECA on May 14, 2018, 05:54:18 PM
Wait for it. Give it a week and we will see the first post about someone asking if we can wear it or when we are transitioning from ABU to OCP. Can’t wait to hear about it. Universal pattern for all.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on May 14, 2018, 06:43:58 PM
Wait for it. Give it a week and we will see the first post about someone asking if we can wear it or when we are transitioning from ABU to OCP. Can’t wait to hear about it. Universal pattern for all.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Already started and locked...
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: HandsomeWalt_USMC on May 14, 2018, 07:19:04 PM
I hope CAP transitions to these sooner rather than later. If they do it quickly enough then I may never have to wear ABU! I despise the ABU, particularly with black boots. I just hate the way it looks. I'd suck it up and wear ABUs if we didn't l9ok like morons with the black boots and if we had the appropriate footwear at least would cut down on many of the questions from AD personnel. Many of those I've interacted with have expressed displeasure. As always, YMMV. Hopefully NHQ doesn't booger the OCPs the way they did ABUs.

I've always felt there should be a blurb in the 39-1 along the lines of:

 "The Civil Air Patrol Air Force-style uniform shall consist of the US Air Force uniform with necessary changes in insignia to adequately distinguish CAP members from USAF personnel. When a change in uniforms occurs, CAPNHQ will draft appropriate orders to adequately modify the Air Force uniform for CAP use and submit them for USAF approval within 90 days. Upon approval a three year phase-in period will begin to give members time to acquire the new uniforms."

Would keep us better aligned with our parent service and solve much hemming and hawing if done correctly.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on May 14, 2018, 07:25:37 PM
I hope CAP transitions to these sooner rather than later. If they do it quickly enough then I may never have to wear ABU! I despise the ABU, particularly with black boots. I just hate the way it looks. I'd suck it up and wear ABUs if we didn't l9ok like morons with the black boots and if we had the appropriate footwear at least would cut down on many of the questions from AD personnel. Many of those I've interacted with have expressed displeasure. As always, YMMV. Hopefully NHQ doesn't booger the OCPs the way they did ABUs.

I've always felt there should be a blurb in the 39-1 along the lines of:

 "The Civil Air Patrol Air Force-style uniform shall consist of the US Air Force uniform with necessary changes in insignia to adequately distinguish CAP members from USAF personnel. When a change in uniforms occurs, CAPNHQ will draft appropriate orders to adequately modify the Air Force uniform for CAP use and submit them for USAF approval within 90 days. Upon approval a three year phase-in period will begin to give members time to acquire the new uniforms."

Would keep us better aligned with our parent service and solve much hemming and hawing if done correctly.

First bit just dont wear ABUs.  Second bit you're aski g for a miracle.   While it would be nice to goto OCPs we shouldn't be in a rush. 
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: JK657 on May 14, 2018, 09:22:49 PM
Since the OCP "scorpion" is an Army pattern (initially), will this have any effect on CAP getting it? Could that slow things down, etc?
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: DocJekyll on May 14, 2018, 09:49:53 PM
Hey, look, no more green boots.

I knew that was going to happen a long way out. They aren't even going tan, they're going coyote! lol.

Ok, so Since I haven't seen anyone really do it, I'm going to break it down now that the announcement has officially been made:

-Regardless of your position on color/design preference on ANY uniform;
--We will see an initial surge of ABU's when the USAF begins to make it's transition
--We will likely see many of the other uniform items become more available as the rest of the force begins their switch
--With the OG and BDU, all services used those patterns so we had a pretty hefty allotment of surplus for some time from the AF and other branches for 30? years of use, which drove the nearly 10 year transition delay for both uniforms.
--Since the ABU was only used by the USAF and only for about 11 years before the transition to new uniform was announced, surplus will already be far lower than other uniforms we've had.
--Since only one branch used the ABU, surplus will also be limited. Once that initial surge of surplus diminishes, we're going to see availability for ABU's plummet and prices increase more than they already have similarly to what we started seeing with BDU's just prior to CAP making the decision to swap.
--OCP and it's prior generation design have been around a while and are easy to find and cheap already. Many in the AF already use it, and the entire Army is phasing in as well, which is why the AF switched to it and not a new pattern.
--People are going to argue/whine/complain about uniforms no matter what side of the fence they're on and try to make their point, and I don't exclude myself from that.

Now on to some points regarding CAP;
-CAP will want to remain distinctive to an extent (IE Black boots, Navy tapes w/ white lettering etc.) which it should be...
-CAP wants to remain close to it's parent organization visually and operationally.
-The USAF wants us to not diverge too much from them as a parent organization.
-From a PA perspective it makes sense to remain visually similar to our parent org.
-Many cadets are drawn to the program by the uniform (I was when I joined 14 years ago and I don't deny that). [It's the whole came for digs, stayed because it was awesome doing cool stuff thing]

Cons to switching to OCP within a reasonable time:
-It's one more uniform out there in the wild for cadets and seniors that fall within standards
-It's going to royally screw up our already defunct transition period to change things before the transition ends June 2021.
-If we don't start the change in a reasonable time, we're looking at a logistical nightmare sourcing uniforms for anyone for a reasonable price, to say nothing about sizes cadets can wear.

Pros to switching to the OCP in a reasonable time:
-We retain similarity visually with our parent organization while still being able to be distinctive.
-Vanguard already makes the velcro rank and name/branch tapes for CAP for use on the fleeces.
-Sizing will be better for all, but especially for cadets and females. (this is one of the stated reasons the AF is changing over)
-The uniforms are more comfortable (Both from personal experience and from information taken by the AF states this.)
-Velcro tapes, rank patches, etc make changing rank and other items easier.
-Other patches, Wing/NCSA/Squadron et. al. will work better with OCP's due to the velcro etc. I know many including myself went no-patches on the ABU's because they didn't look right, or other reasons.
-The boots can remain the same as we currently have, or we can change. Those who wear corporate usually stick to those, and those who wear USAF style generally stick to that anyways, so interplay between the two uniform types is a mute point. Only issue I see is possibly changing boot color with the flight suits, I don't know, flip a coin or something on those, it doesn't really matter.
-Ergonomics of the pockets/pouches are far better on OCP.
-This provides an opportunity for CAP to also change the BBDU to the ACU style pockets for similarity while retaining a corporate uniform for those who don't meet H/W standards and/or have religious preferences for beards/etc.
-This change will overall reduce cost to members due to product and uniform item availability over the coming years


For the TL;DR,

It's going to have to happen eventually. No CAP won't go to the BBDU exclusively or they would have done it with the previous itterations. Overall though, it's likely to be a good thing for CAP to do when they do switch to OCP or whatever the AF decides to wear going forward. Whether that means amending the current phase in or waiting until it's done then having another. I personally think we need to get out ahead of this one for sanity sake. We know it'll happen, but I doubt a 10 year wait is going to do us any good like it has in the past because of current climate with all the other branches uniforms all over the place and smaller surplus of USAF uniforms because so many didn't like the pattern (just like the original ACU pattern). At least the OCP/ACU, we're looking at things that are already out and have been on the shelves for years. Just like with most things it's not about looking cool, looking the same or anything else other than what usually is the determining factor: Logistics of acquiring items vs cost of maintaining a certain uniform type.

Any new uniform patterns adopted by any branch from this point forward (thanks to a bill passed in congress) will have to be adopted by all branches, so we may get to go back to having 1ish utility uniform for all branches like back in the days of OG greens or BDU's (and that's awesome for supply). The AF going to OCP is a GOOD thing. They're about to dramatically reduce the complexity of uniform and equipment choices.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on May 14, 2018, 10:48:45 PM
As for the Flight Suits in the Air Force.
The 2 Piece OCP Flight Suit is only worn in Non-Ejection Seat aircraft. Pilots who fly ejection seat aircraft still fly in the Green Nomex flight suits.
Which means most pilots in our "parent" command, Air Combat Command will continue to wear the green bag. So CAP still wearing it won't be a problem.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: DocJekyll on May 14, 2018, 11:22:40 PM
As for the Flight Suits in the Air Force.
The 2 Piece OCP Flight Suit is only worn in Non-Ejection Seat aircraft. Pilots who fly ejection seat aircraft still fly in the Green Nomex flight suits.
Which means most pilots in our "parent" command, Air Combat Command will continue to wear the green bag. So CAP still wearing it won't be a problem.

My comment was with regards to the boots, but I've edited it for clarity. I do know the AF is looking at feasability of 2 piece flight suits for ejection rated aircraft but that's not a related topic so I won't even touch it for this thread. Best to try to stay on point.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 14, 2018, 11:25:41 PM
As for the Flight Suits in the Air Force.
The 2 Piece OCP Flight Suit is only worn in Non-Ejection Seat aircraft. Pilots who fly ejection seat aircraft still fly in the Green Nomex flight suits.
Which means most pilots in our "parent" command, Air Combat Command will continue to wear the green bag. So CAP still wearing it won't be a problem.

From the CSAF's memo...

"Already in our inventory and in use, the OCP 2-piece flight suit has overwhelming support from aircrew. This uniform will be authorized for all non-ejection seat wear and made available for purchase/issue. In addition, it will be tested for use in ejection seats for those who may prefer it over the one-piece flight suit.

Last I checked, all CAP aircraft are "non-ejection seat aircraft", and based on comments
online, given the option, you're not going to see too many green bags in a year or two.

So even on the flight lines, where there had been much more uniformity with the USAF, that will disappear as well.

And last I checked, all CAP aircraft were "non-ejection seat aircraft".
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: DocJekyll on May 14, 2018, 11:44:09 PM
As for the Flight Suits in the Air Force.
The 2 Piece OCP Flight Suit is only worn in Non-Ejection Seat aircraft. Pilots who fly ejection seat aircraft still fly in the Green Nomex flight suits.
Which means most pilots in our "parent" command, Air Combat Command will continue to wear the green bag. So CAP still wearing it won't be a problem.

From the CSAF's memo...

"Already in our inventory and in use, the OCP 2-piece flight suit has overwhelming support from aircrew. This uniform will be authorized for all non-ejection seat wear and made available for purchase/issue. In addition, it will be tested for use in ejection seats for those who may prefer it over the one-piece flight suit.

Last I checked, all CAP aircraft are "non-ejection seat aircraft", and based on comments
online, given the option, you're not going to see too many green bags in a year or two.

So even on the flight lines, where there had been much more uniformity with the USAF, that will disappear as well.

And last I checked, all CAP aircraft were "non-ejection seat aircraft".

*gasp*

CAP Flight crews and just about every other senior/cadet in (OCP) Utility uniforms looking identical... only buying one uniform and it being similar enough it can work on both instances... what would we do  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: sardak on May 15, 2018, 12:30:38 AM
From the FAQs about the change:

Q: What do I do with old ABUs or other uniform items I no longer want?

Disposition or amnesty boxes for clothing, such as those found down range, allow you to turn in unwanted items such as boots, blouses, pants or any unwanted military clothing item. The boxes, once full, are emptied, and the items are destroyed either by shredding or burning.

Airmen can dispose of the Airman Battle Uniform by destroying it. To properly destroy the uniform, Airmen should first remove all rank/grade insignia, name tapes and other identifiers sewn onto them, and then render the uniform unable to be physically worn by cutting the material.

Mike
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: J2H on May 15, 2018, 01:23:58 PM
I kept mine... even though they don't fit no more
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Dwight Dutton on May 15, 2018, 01:45:54 PM
[Overall, I liked the design of the ACUs over the BDUs, except the UCP color.  I wonder though, if CAP goes to OCPs, will Blue BDUs be transitioned to an OCP design--perhaps like Stonewall has suggested a few times before?

Probably not as the blue BDU design is standardized and use by a lot more than just CAP.  I would not be the least bit surprised to see OCP style blue BDU's made though, as there probably is a market for those anyway.  And if they are available at no cost to NHQ, they may well be added to the inventory as we do not have enough uniform choices available.

One thing that will change is no more pocket patches, which were always a nightmare to sew on, unless you were willing to accept a nonfunctional pocket (I never was, so I never wore them)
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: GZCP31 on May 15, 2018, 02:48:59 PM
Probably not as the blue BDU design is standardized and use by a lot more than just CAP.  I would not be the least bit surprised to see OCP style blue BDU's made though, as there probably is a market for those anyway.  And if they are available at no cost to NHQ, they may well be added to the inventory as we do not have enough uniform choices available.

One thing that will change is no more pocket patches, which were always a nightmare to sew on, unless you were willing to accept a nonfunctional pocket (I never was, so I never wore them)
The OCP style Blue ate already available through Tru-Spec. Their Ripstop is nice and thin for us in the south. I have a pair of the woodland TRU (TACTICAL RESPONSE UNIFORM®) pants and they are nice in the summer. They breath well. But they are expensive.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LATORRECA on May 15, 2018, 04:53:37 PM
     So, I just got back from our weekly CAP meeting and another senior member working at a Joint command commented “all AF personnel in ****command are running to the uniform store to make the 1st Oct dateline.”  Funny comments followed by “are you ready for the change.”
     I thought the comments were funny and of good taste.

    For the current AF personnel on this blog. Kudos on your Service by dropping the ABU uniform. ✌️
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: NIN on May 15, 2018, 04:54:55 PM
CAP Flight crews and just about every other senior/cadet in (OCP) Utility uniforms looking identical... only buying one uniform and it being similar enough it can work on both instances... what would we do  ::) ::) ::)

The Zipper-suited Sun God™ union would have a field day with that.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: DocJekyll on May 15, 2018, 05:16:34 PM
CAP Flight crews and just about every other senior/cadet in (OCP) Utility uniforms looking identical... only buying one uniform and it being similar enough it can work on both instances... what would we do  ::) ::) ::)

The Zipper-suited Sun God™ union would have a field day with that.

I'm a member of Local 025 and I'm fine with it.  >:D >:D >:D
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on May 15, 2018, 05:24:35 PM
No desire to wear it at all.  Plus not fiscally smart...   Talking to a friend of mine I may get a few pairs of pants for task wear but that's about it.....
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: DocJekyll on May 16, 2018, 11:29:58 AM
No desire to wear it at all.  Plus not fiscally smart...   Talking to a friend of mine I may get a few pairs of pants for task wear but that's about it.....

Well there in lays the problem... It's going to become fiscally smart in a hurry when ABU supplies dry up like the BDU did, but we're looking at ABU's being destroyed instead of going to surplus for CAP and no other branches using the uniform... It's like a hurricane on the horizon.

I'm sure NHQ understands that and is looking at what we need to do to get out in front of it.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Dwight Dutton on May 16, 2018, 12:21:42 PM
The OCP style Blue are already available through Tru-Spec. Their Ripstop is nice and thin for us in the south. I have a pair of the woodland TRU (TACTICAL RESPONSE UNIFORM®) pants and they are nice in the summer. They breath well. But they are expensive.

I can't find the OCP style blue uniform, I'm interested in seeing it.  No doubt the pants are also made in some shade of grey and we could get out in front of this change and make those the official tac pants for the CWU and actually have a standard.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: GZCP31 on May 16, 2018, 12:55:20 PM
The OCP style Blue are already available through Tru-Spec. Their Ripstop is nice and thin for us in the south. I have a pair of the woodland TRU (TACTICAL RESPONSE UNIFORM®) pants and they are nice in the summer. They breath well. But they are expensive.

I can't find the OCP style blue uniform, I'm interested in seeing it.  No doubt the pants are also made in some shade of grey and we could get out in front of this change and make those the official tac pants for the CWU and actually have a standard.
I didn't notice the TRU had a different collar. That is the closest
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: hamburgee on May 16, 2018, 12:58:38 PM
The OCP style Blue are already available through Tru-Spec. Their Ripstop is nice and thin for us in the south. I have a pair of the woodland TRU (TACTICAL RESPONSE UNIFORM®) pants and they are nice in the summer. They breath well. But they are expensive.

I can't find the OCP style blue uniform, I'm interested in seeing it.  No doubt the pants are also made in some shade of grey and we could get out in front of this change and make those the official tac pants for the CWU and actually have a standard.
I can't find it either. Tru-Spec's TRU is close, but it's not quite there. It's like the old style ACU with velcro flaps on the shoulder pocket instead of zippers, mandarin collar, and no velcro for nametapes & rank.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: J2H on May 16, 2018, 03:22:14 PM
BDU surplus is still rampant on Ebay, some of it is pricey, but most can be had on the cheap!
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on May 16, 2018, 04:23:24 PM
No desire to wear it at all.  Plus not fiscally smart...   Talking to a friend of mine I may get a few pairs of pants for task wear but that's about it.....

Well there in lays the problem... It's going to become fiscally smart in a hurry when ABU supplies dry up like the BDU did, but we're looking at ABU's being destroyed instead of going to surplus for CAP and no other branches using the uniform... It's like a hurricane on the horizon.

I'm sure NHQ understands that and is looking at what we need to do to get out in front of it.

You do realize that statement was made in the CAP capacity.   Even if CAP chooses to pursue OCPs the cost alone is not something i would be wanting to pursue.  We don't need OCPs anytime soon because the AF is going to them.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Full time cadet on May 16, 2018, 09:31:12 PM
1. CAP has no reason to get OCPs. Rest alone transitioning to ABUs. I really don't see the point of how getting ABUs would sustain our mission compared to BDUs.
Members of CAP come from a really diverse level. OCPs can be a significant expense for members. We are not fully funded for these expenses nor we get a stipend compared to all service members.



Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: SarDragon on May 16, 2018, 10:10:25 PM
1. CAP has no reason to get OCPs. Rest alone transitioning to ABUs. I really don't see the point of how getting ABUs would sustain our mission compared to BDUs.
Members of CAP come from a really diverse level. OCPs can be a significant expense for members. We are not fully funded for these expenses nor we get a stipend compared to all service members.
It's a uniform. We've worn so many different uniforms over the years that I've lost count. Moving forward, we will wear many more.

If you are currently a cadet, you won't be by the time we might be transitioning to OCPs. If you become an SM, you can wear the less expensive BBDUs, and you're all set.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: kwe1009 on May 16, 2018, 10:10:59 PM
1. CAP has no reason to get OCPs. Rest alone transitioning to ABUs. I really don't see the point of how getting ABUs would sustain our mission compared to BDUs.
Members of CAP come from a really diverse level. OCPs can be a significant expense for members. We are not fully funded for these expenses nor we get a stipend compared to all service members.

You are absolutely correct.  I tried to warn people that ABUs were uncomfortable, hard to find used (even near an AF base), and likely going away soon.  Now here we are.  OCP is not an option for CAP now and it should not be.  One good option is to simply extend the wear date for the BDU.  It is still pretty easy to find from multiple sources and even in many surplus stores.  ABUs will quickly disappear over the next couple of years since nobody but the USAF and CAP ever wore them.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Fubar on May 16, 2018, 11:04:36 PM
Won't the Army have to give permission to the Air Force to give us permission to wear this new uniform?

I mean the bureaucracy on that deal sounds pretty sweet.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: kwe1009 on May 17, 2018, 09:58:53 AM
Won't the Army have to give permission to the Air Force to give us permission to wear this new uniform?

I mean the bureaucracy on that deal sounds pretty sweet.

Maybe.  The BDU was an Army uniform that was eventually rolled out to all branches. Congress wants the services to get away from the proprietary (and expensive) uniform procurement and back to a more single-source model.  So I don't think the Army will have a say in when or if CAP gets the OCP.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on May 17, 2018, 01:01:21 PM
Won't the Army have to give permission to the Air Force to give us permission to wear this new uniform?

I mean the bureaucracy on that deal sounds pretty sweet.

Maybe.  The BDU was an Army uniform that was eventually rolled out to all branches. Congress wants the services to get away from the proprietary (and expensive) uniform procurement and back to a more single-source model.  So I don't think the Army will have a say in when or if CAP gets the OCP.

Nope, the Army did not "trademark" the OCP like the Marines did with their MARPAT uniform.
The Air Force going to the OCP is just part of the One Uniform for them All thing.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LATORRECA on May 17, 2018, 01:02:10 PM
1. CAP has no reason to get OCPs. Rest alone transitioning to ABUs. I really don't see the point of how getting ABUs would sustain our mission compared to BDUs.
Members of CAP come from a really diverse level. OCPs can be a significant expense for members. We are not fully funded for these expenses nor we get a stipend compared to all service members.

You are absolutely correct.  I tried to warn people that ABUs were uncomfortable, hard to find used (even near an AF base), and likely going away soon.  Now here we are.  OCP is not an option for CAP now and it should not be.  One good option is to simply extend the wear date for the BDU.  It is still pretty easy to find from multiple sources and even in many surplus stores.  ABUs will quickly disappear over the next couple of years since nobody but the USAF and CAP ever wore them.

Funny


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: CAPLTC on May 20, 2018, 12:34:11 PM
1. CAP has no reason to get OCPs. Rest alone transitioning to ABUs. I really don't see the point of how getting ABUs would sustain our mission compared to BDUs.
Members of CAP come from a really diverse level. OCPs can be a significant expense for members. We are not fully funded for these expenses nor we get a stipend compared to all service members.

And yet CAP will.
Soon.
Envision yourself in OCP.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: SarDragon on May 20, 2018, 03:58:37 PM
Define soon. IMHO, no current cadets will wear OCP as a cadet.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 20, 2018, 04:10:51 PM
Define soon. IMHO, no current cadets will wear OCP as a cadet.

+1 Not going to happen - the ABU is still 3+ years from sundown, and isn't even currently
properly authorized for wear, let alone consideration of anything "new" before the parent service
has gotten theirs changed over.

I would guess Gen Phelka's successor as Nat CC will be the first to consider a change.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: SAREXinNY on May 20, 2018, 10:11:41 PM
First, I've said it before, but CAP needs an MOU with USAF regarding uniform issues. Instead of reinventing the wheel every time big blue changes their threads, we transition with them (+ a year or two added on for phasing out the older uniform). Many people say "It can't be done because...(blah blah blah)" but yes, yes it can. But that would cut way down on red tape, bureaucracy, and uncertainty...you know, the things CAP are best known for.

Second, (and I know this will never happen...but) uniform costs should be covered for all members in good standing. The curry award for cadets is a very good start, but SM's should have their costs reimbursed or have uniforms directly issued. If we really provide such an amazing service, benefit, and cost-savings to the federal government...why don't they invest more in us? (Rhetorical question)

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Toad1168 on May 21, 2018, 10:49:05 AM
First, I've said it before, but CAP needs an MOU with USAF regarding uniform issues. Instead of reinventing the wheel every time big blue changes their threads, we transition with them (+ a year or two added on for phasing out the older uniform). Many people say "It can't be done because...(blah blah blah)" but yes, yes it can. But that would cut way down on red tape, bureaucracy, and uncertainty...you know, the things CAP are best known for.

Second, (and I know this will never happen...but) uniform costs should be covered for all members in good standing. The curry award for cadets is a very good start, but SM's should have their costs reimbursed or have uniforms directly issued. If we really provide such an amazing service, benefit, and cost-savings to the federal government...why don't they invest more in us? (Rhetorical question)

Just my two cents.

The Curry blues program costs in excess of $600k per year, and that is a one and done expense for new cadets.  Now imagine doing that for all the seniors.  Maybe, if there was a time in service requirement added for seniors that in some way required them to be productive members.  But I don't see that ever happening. and the masses would revolt.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Ned on May 21, 2018, 12:15:07 PM

Second, (and I know this will never happen...but) uniform costs should be covered for all members in good standing.

Easily done if the membership wouldn't mind having their dues more than tripled.

Somehow I think there may be some resistance to that idea.

Neither is there any suggestion that the Appropriations Fairy seems likely to drop an extra $10 million or so to equip every senior with a AF-style or corporate uniform or two every 4-5 years.  And that's just the seniors.  And if I could talk Congress and our colleagues in the Air Force out of an extra $10,000,000 a year, I would probably want to spend that on things like training for seniors and cadets (imagine if CLC/RSC/ NSC were free, including transportation), more radios and corporate vehicles to help save lives and move members around, and maybe even a full time employee or two in each wing to help with the crushing administrative burden.  It's mostly just a resource priority allocation issue.

Seriously, I did a little over 20 years wearing Army uniforms.  And because I was an officer, my Uncle Sam expected me to buy almost all of them with my own money.  Why should CAP officers be different?

Ned Lee
Former Army Guy

Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 21, 2018, 12:54:13 PM
Why should CAP officers be different?

Because there are volunteers giving their time and treasure when most other people are "off"?

Because when they show up to a mission, military base for encampment, or similar situation
almost everyone else in the room is getting paid, and in many cases a uniform allowance and a pension?

Because they give up their vacations, time with their families, and often billable hours in their "real" jobs to serve their country?
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Dwight Dutton on May 21, 2018, 01:38:28 PM
First, I've said it before, but CAP needs an MOU with USAF regarding uniform issues. Instead of reinventing the wheel every time big blue changes their threads, we transition with them (+ a year or two added on for phasing out the older uniform). Many people say "It can't be done because...(blah blah blah)" but yes, yes it can. But that would cut way down on red tape, bureaucracy, and uncertainty...you know, the things CAP are best known for.

Second, (and I know this will never happen...but) uniform costs should be covered for all members in good standing. The curry award for cadets is a very good start, but SM's should have their costs reimbursed or have uniforms directly issued. If we really provide such an amazing service, benefit, and cost-savings to the federal government...why don't they invest more in us? (Rhetorical question)

Just my two cents.

As someone who wears both hats, I can tell you the USCG normally supports its members far better than CAP - but not in this case.

A full set of USCG uniforms (not counting the whites or mess dress, mind you) costs $740.  And thats according to the AUX national HR. The few "corporate" uniforms are almost never seen, and obsolete uniforms disappear quickly despite having an "as long as they are serviceable" rule.  They don't show up in thrift stores, surplus or even on Ebay.

Compare this to CAP - where the minimum basic corporate uniform can be had for  about $40.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Ned on May 21, 2018, 01:48:54 PM
Because there are volunteers giving their time and treasure when most other people are "off"?

Because when they show up to a mission, military base for encampment, or similar situation
almost everyone else in the room is getting paid, and in many cases a uniform allowance and a pension?

Because they give up their vacations, time with their families, and often billable hours in their "real" jobs to serve their country?

Indeed.  Kinda like Scout leaders, reserve cops, volunteer firefighters, USCGA folks, and countless others who generously and courageously give of their time and effort to serve their communities.  And all of whom accepted these jobs with the full knowledge and expectation of the conditions of the position.  And thank God for them.

I'm sure they would all like free uniforms as well.  And undoubtedly deserve them as much or more than volunteer CAP officers.

 

(And Bob, if you honestly don't think military officers work uncountable hours "off the clock" and away from their families, vacations, and billable hours, that suggests that you may not appreciate the responsibilities and realities of military service.)
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 21, 2018, 01:54:52 PM
(And Bob, if you honestly don't think military officers work uncountable hours "off the clock" and away from their families, vacations, and billable hours, that suggests that you may not appreciate the responsibilities and realities of military service.)

That's very nice, everybody works for free sometimes.  CAP people do it >all the time<, though I don't see how the
comparison is apt or relevent.

As much or more?  Very nice.

Fair enough, NHQ doesn't have the funding to provide uniforms to seniors (or even most cadets for that matter), so
alleviate the issues in the other direction by reducing the variety of the multiforms to those that fulfill a mission mandate instead of affectation.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: lordmonar on May 21, 2018, 02:47:25 PM
We got that.

A service dress for "office" and ceremony wear,  A field uniform and a flight uniform.

Seeing as you only need to buy the basic uniform your complaint about the multiform is a red herring. 


Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 21, 2018, 03:47:18 PM
We got that.

A service dress for "office" and ceremony wear,  A field uniform and a flight uniform.

Nope, sorry. 

In not one of the cases you indicated does cap have a "uniform".

Nor do the garments prescribed actually fulfill the mission mandates ahead of affectation.

They fail on uniformity and / or propriety.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: TheSkyHornet on May 21, 2018, 04:19:20 PM
(And Bob, if you honestly don't think military officers work uncountable hours "off the clock" and away from their families, vacations, and billable hours, that suggests that you may not appreciate the responsibilities and realities of military service.)

That's very nice, everybody works for free sometimes.  CAP people do it >all the time<, though I don't see how the
comparison is apt or relevent.

As much or more?  Very nice.

Fair enough, NHQ doesn't have the funding to provide uniforms to seniors (or even most cadets for that matter), so
alleviate the issues in the other direction by reducing the variety of the multiforms to those that fulfill a mission mandate instead of affectation.

I would argue that they (NHQ) change the mandatory minimum uniform from service dress to the field uniform.

The majority of senior members performing Emergency Services duties will either be in the corporate polo or some form of fatigues. You should rarely be performing duties at the squadron level in Class Bs or As.

The majority of cadets will be in fatigues. They should rarely be in Class Bs or As. If the intent of CAPR 60-1 is to get cadets out of school, to get hands-on, and to keep them physically active, get them out of a dress uniform and put them to work; get them dirty.

And to Eclipse's point, there is no uniform. It's a "multiform." We can have people in BDUs, ABUs, blue corporate fatigues, or a polo with tactical pants...and all are "in uniform."
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Ned on May 21, 2018, 04:27:03 PM
We've all made these observations before. 

Yup, CAP has a lot of uniforms.  Almost exactly as many as our colleagues in the USAF.  And, just like CAP,  a typical AF squadron will typically have folks in many different uniforms on any given day.  And the reasons for both CAP and the AF are the same:  we need the uniforms we have to perform our assigned missions while operating under the constraints imposed by the AF on themselves and on us.

What this has to do with OCPs at this point is a little fuzzy.  But this is CAPTalk and even a uniform thread will morph over time into a different uniform thread.  Because what we wear is much more important than what we do.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 21, 2018, 04:45:07 PM
The constraints and reasoning are not the same and it's not an apt comparison.

We've made the points before about the number of variants the USAF and other services
have in their closets, but the reasoning behind them is not the same, and when a UOD
is issued, everyone has the same garment on, and if not, it's because of specific
mission mandates or a relatively rare transition period.

It's relevent to the OCP discussions because this will be another opportunity for NHQ to put
all of its members in the same uniform, at least on the adult side.

It's also relevent because we already have members, mostly parents asking if they
should go direct top the OCP.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Ned on May 21, 2018, 06:18:59 PM
The constraints and reasoning are not the same and it's not an apt comparison.

We've made the points before about the number of variants the USAF and other services
have in their closets, but the reasoning behind them is not the same, and when a UOD
is issued, everyone has the same garment on, and if not, it's because of specific
mission mandates or a relatively rare transition period.

You can keep saying that, but it is still incorrect on both counts.

The reasoning behind both CAP and AF uniform collections is indeed exactly the same -- mission-driven subject to regulations.  We need flying, service, and field uniforms for exactly the same reasons the AF needs them.  (We could certainly debate whether we need optional dress uniforms, but I don't think that is the thrust of your argument.)

The primary reason we have a full set of corporate uniforms is because the AF holds us to the same height/weight/grooming restrictions they hold themselves to (plus some slack.)  The only difference is they kick out even career-oriented members who do not meet their standards while we allow them to continue serving, as we always have.

And it's possible you have spent more time with AD USAF squadrons that I have, although I doubt it.  Sure they have a UOD, but it will vary considerably throughout the unit.  Maintainers, pilots, and administrative folks all dress differently on the same day.  As do a host of others (food service workers, medical folks, recruiters, etc., etc., etc..)

And I we agree that we should be telling parents as well as members loudly and clearly not to invest in OCPs until CAP follows our AF colleagues, as we have always done.  Still not sure how your argument of "there are too many uniforms, some of our members feel distrespected because of corporates, and NHQ should make everyone dress the same" fits into the thread.  But I am certainly not the Thread Police.  For which we can both be grateful.


Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Gunsotsu on May 21, 2018, 07:52:57 PM
Get an MOU with Ma Blue that allows cadets U18 to wear the current USAF duty and CONUS field uniform within one year of adoption by USAF. Seniors and cadets over 18 not within H/W standards for AD USAF personnel wear corporates. Full stop. No more cosplaying Air Force. 

Easy.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Fubar on May 22, 2018, 12:29:21 AM
I would argue that they (NHQ) change the mandatory minimum uniform from service dress to the field uniform.

How about ditching this entirely? As a volunteer force who pays for all their own uniforms and equipment, why not have us just buy what we need?
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Holding Pattern on May 22, 2018, 02:46:30 AM
No more cosplaying Air Force. 

If all you are seeing is Air Force cosplay, there are other orgs that might suit you better.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Gunsotsu on May 22, 2018, 02:26:49 PM
If all you are seeing is Air Force cosplay, there are other orgs that might suit you better.

Seniors have no need to wear USAF uniforms. No blues. No ABUs. No OCPs.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 22, 2018, 02:36:37 PM
I would generally agree with that, presuming everyone was in whites,
and moreso if the !@#$% whites had a hat.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: NIN on May 22, 2018, 02:38:35 PM
Seniors have no need to wear USAF uniforms. No blues. No ABUs. No OCPs.

Except for the fact that we're in the Air Force Auxiliary?
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 22, 2018, 02:42:42 PM
Seniors have no need to wear USAF uniforms. No blues. No ABUs. No OCPs.

Except for the fact that we're in the Air Force Auxiliary?

So it's important for 1/2 the adults then (probably less)?
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Spam on May 22, 2018, 02:44:36 PM
Seniors have no need to wear USAF uniforms. No blues. No ABUs. No OCPs.

Except for the fact that we're in the Air Force Auxiliary?

Yes, the civilian auxiliary. Repeat civilian. Just like the civilian VFW, which wears street clothes with a Blazer and a hat. I think that would be a viable model for our adult members... AF style for cadets.

Vr
Spam
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: NIN on May 22, 2018, 02:46:07 PM
The primary reason we have a full set of corporate uniforms is because the AF holds us to the same height/weight/grooming restrictions they hold themselves to (plus some slack.)  The only difference is they kick out even career-oriented members who do not meet their standards while we allow them to continue serving, as we always have.

Its my understanding that the USAF no longer has a height/weight standard.

There is a waist measurement as part of their PFT scoring (with an "abdominal circumference" measurement > 39 garnering you ZERO points for the PT test), and there is a "you must be as tall as Tooey's finger to enlist" sort of height/weight thing.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: abdsp51 on May 22, 2018, 04:01:54 PM
The primary reason we have a full set of corporate uniforms is because the AF holds us to the same height/weight/grooming restrictions they hold themselves to (plus some slack.)  The only difference is they kick out even career-oriented members who do not meet their standards while we allow them to continue serving, as we always have.

Its my understanding that the USAF no longer has a height/weight standard.

There is a waist measurement as part of their PFT scoring (with an "abdominal circumference" measurement > 39 garnering you ZERO points for the PT test), and there is a "you must be as tall as Tooey's finger to enlist" sort of height/weight thing.

Correct there is no more H/W for the AF.  It's a PT test and 4 failures in 2 years and you are out.... 

There is a H/W for entry but once you are in and complete BMT and Tech School it no longer applies..
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: ColonelJack on May 23, 2018, 06:43:27 AM
If all you are seeing is Air Force cosplay, there are other orgs that might suit you better.

Seniors have no need to wear USAF uniforms. No blues. No ABUs. No OCPs.

Why?

Jack
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: jeders on May 23, 2018, 10:00:09 AM
If all you are seeing is Air Force cosplay, there are other orgs that might suit you better.

Seniors have no need to wear USAF uniforms if they don't want to. No blues. No ABUs. No OCPs.

FTFY.

If you don't want to wear the AF-style uniforms, then don't. If you do want to and you meet the requirements, then do. It's just that simple.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: TheSkyHornet on May 23, 2018, 10:11:57 AM
It's been preferred that seniors working with cadets wear the Air Force-style uniform as a "lead by example" model and to enforce uniformity among the cadet ranks as a training tool. This is a challenge in an organization which has both an active, operational mission and a youth leadership program because we have uniform sets that highly vary across the work arena in such a small locale.

From the military side, you have a field uniform, service dress, a flight uniform, and a number of distinctive operational uniforms that are visibly different from the norm depending on the AO. CAP has incorporated a similar thought process, which works, but it's visibly so intermixed at the local level. On the military front, you're generally going to see the garrison in similar attire on a single day, albeit some exceptions due to work detail. But, usually, if one person is in fatigues, everyone else in the office is in fatigues. If one person is in service dress, everyone is in service dress. With CAP, we opted away from distinctive uniforms (e.g., whites in the summer vs. blues in the winter, dessert camo vs. foliage, etc.), and brought in the corporate wear which was reserved for members who elected to wear them or did not meet H&W standards. It sort of corrupted the military mindset (and let's not get into the "changing the uniform every time someone sneezes" topic).

JROTC and other paramilitary youth organizations wear a military-style uniform, whether reflective of an active-use (in service) uniform or retired (phased out) uniform. Sea Cadets wear NWUs. Young Marines wear BDUs. Army JROTC cadet wear ACUs. Air Force JROTC cadets wear ABUs. They each wear a service dress uniform respective of the 'mother branch.' CAP is not abnormal here.

No, CAP does not need a camouflage uniform to conduct SAR missions. Neither does the Air Force. Still, their flight crews wear OD flight suits or camouflage for domestic SAR. It's not an abnormal concept. It's the same uniform they'd wear on a deployment. That said, CAP is not deployed to international combat zones; we don't 'need' to stay concealed.

But, by logic, if we're going to have a cadet corps that wears a military-style uniform in all aspects of the program, why not the senior corps in all aspects of their missions? Uniformity is just that.

What I think we should do currently, before any uniforms change, is hold unit commanders to enforce existing standards. If the regulations state the conditions under which the uniform is or is not worn, that should be upheld. We seem to have a tough time, in some instances, having people correctly wear their uniform as it currently exists. There are far too many people who cannot maintain grooming standards for the uniform which they elect to wear, and it goes uncorrected. There are far too many people who do not meet H&W for the uniform which they elect to wear, and it goes uncorrected. Switching to a common-type uniform does not address that, absent of waiving all standards and getting rid of them.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Dwight Dutton on May 23, 2018, 12:57:34 PM
No, CAP does not need a camouflage uniform to conduct SAR missions. Neither does the Air Force. Still, their flight crews wear OD flight suits or camouflage for domestic SAR. It's not an abnormal concept. It's the same uniform they'd wear on a deployment. That said, CAP is not deployed to international combat zones; we don't 'need' to stay concealed.

I meet what 39-1 calls USAF standards, (70" tall & 192 Lb.  USAF max=199, CAP max=219) but the weight is in the wrong place and it really does look like I do not.  The last group photo I was in I looked, well awful.  A perceived violation is just as bad as the real thing in this case.  I wear corporate because its cheaper, more comfortable, and I wore the real stuff every day for 21 years already.

No camouflage uniform was ever designed for CAP.  We get USAF surplus stuff, and it comes in the color that it is.

Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Fubar on May 24, 2018, 04:25:16 AM
If the regulations state the conditions under which the uniform is or is not worn, that should be upheld.

I have a question. Is table 1-1 in CAPM 39-1 what's required for wear for specific activities, or just guidelines designed to show the equivalency between USAF-style and corporate uniforms? Because interesting to me, they don't list the Corporate Working Uniform for squadron meetings (nearly 100% of our wing wears polo shirts to their squadron meetings).

I don't see any shall, will, or musts in there (and the chart even contradicts itself by saying the CWU can be worn if the Class B or Aviator would be worn, but then doesn't list either of those two as uniforms worn as working uniforms). I do however see usually and commander's direction which to me means the chart is more about what USAF-Style uniform matches a corporate uniform, and not a regulatory demand to wear certain uniforms for certain things.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: JK657 on May 31, 2018, 08:27:10 AM
I wonder if/when CAP gets OCP will the black boot requirement stay or will it be the coyote brown?
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on May 31, 2018, 09:15:01 AM
I am going to ask the Uniform Committee to add the following to the next CAPM 39-1.

Wear the CWU to all squadron meetings.
Wear the Polo to Wing meetings.
Wear the Dress Uniform every time you visit the State capital during a CAP activity.
Wear the Dress Uniform when conducting external AE.
Wear CDU or CWU when conducting internal AE...

Seriously, do we want to include all possible instances what uniforms to wear to all possible activities on a manual?

Use the table as a guideline, if you cannot determine that on your own ask your commander to designate the UOD.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: TheSkyHornet on May 31, 2018, 09:23:01 AM
If the regulations state the conditions under which the uniform is or is not worn, that should be upheld.

I have a question. Is table 1-1 in CAPM 39-1 what's required for wear for specific activities, or just guidelines designed to show the equivalency between USAF-style and corporate uniforms? Because interesting to me, they don't list the Corporate Working Uniform for squadron meetings (nearly 100% of our wing wears polo shirts to their squadron meetings).

I don't see any shall, will, or musts in there (and the chart even contradicts itself by saying the CWU can be worn if the Class B or Aviator would be worn, but then doesn't list either of those two as uniforms worn as working uniforms). I do however see usually and commander's direction which to me means the chart is more about what USAF-Style uniform matches a corporate uniform, and not a regulatory demand to wear certain uniforms for certain things.

That table is suggestive in nature to provide guidance as to the appropriate UOD for an activity/event. What it doesn't do is give much guidance as to when you would wear a service coat versus not wearing a service coat. It does, however, say "commander's direction."

If you look under 1.2.3 Classification and General Guidance, 1.2.3.1 states
Quote
CAP uniforms consist of USAF-style uniforms and Corporate-style uniforms. Table 1-1 describes the types of authorized uniforms and categorizes these uniforms by their expected use.

--- bold emphasis is mine

When reading on through the remainder of 1.2.3, it provides additional guidance on the role of commanders in determining the appropriate uniform for an activity within the limitations of mandatory wear.

The chart does not suggest the CWU would be worn in lieu of Service Dress; it says the CWU is the corporate equivalent of the USAF-style utility uniform.

The only time you are required to wear a specific uniform at a specific activity is when that activity director/commander establishes a UOD. They cannot, however, make you purchase items that are not issued. The exception to this rule is that you must maintain the appropriate uniform for special activities (e.g., Encampment; NCSAs, CAP business in the National Capital area, etc.). There are other regulations throughout CAP that mandate uniform wear for certain functions (e.g., you must wear a uniform in CAP corporate aircraft). It's more important to take note as to when not to wear a uniform versus which uniform you should be in, albeit some extreme cases when service dress is a must (1.2.4.4).

I think this is being read into way too much. This doesn't really have much to do with the topic of the USAF transitioning to the OCP, or CAP adopting the OCP in the future.

I wonder if/when CAP gets OCP will the black boot requirement stay or will it be the coyote brown?

The general consensus as to the reason not to switch from leather to suede in the transition from the BDU to ABU seems to rest with the fact that it was perceived as an unjustified cost to members less than it was a matter of having a CAP Air Force-style uniform distinctive from the official Air Force uniform.

However, I was in the group that felt that if one was to continue to wear BDUs, wear the leather; if one was to wear the ABU, wear suedes. It really doesn't make any difference at the NHQ level what boots the individual member decides to purchase and wear.

The Navy and Coast Guard are the remaining forces that continue to wear black leather with their uniforms. Even then, both branches have alternative fatigues for certain operational environments that include the wear of suede combat boots. Even Air Force flight uniforms have adopted suede wear. The Army has even gone to opt away from flight suits to have aircrew members wear ACUs.

So functionally, I don't think CAP is at a loss to move away from black leather to matching suede boots. It's really a non-issue in my book.  We've continued to wear black leather as a "look sharp" tool to teach boot shining, which serves virtually no disciplinary purpose, and to offer an alternative in service dress for wearing dress shoes. My only upset in moving to suede boots is that my desert tan combats are no longer the matching boot with newer uniform patterns. But I personally think the black leather looks atrocious, and even more so when they aren't shined. At the end of the day, it's a work boot, not a show piece. If your boots ain't dirty, you ain't working.

Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: TheSkyHornet on May 31, 2018, 09:26:20 AM
Use the table as a guideline, if you cannot determine that on your own ask your commander to designate the UOD.

I think some of the issue here is that some commanders don't know what the appropriate UOD for an activity would be.

Too many people try to set the UOD before setting the activity, rather than the other way around. The activity dictates the uniform. Unless you're trying to emulate a corporate office, you don't need to dress up.

*Excuse the double post.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 31, 2018, 10:27:29 AM
+1 - There's far too much "what do the members own" vs "what is appropriate dress".

It's interesting to see how members will step up for activities when they are just told the UOD
as a matter of course and chips are allowed to fall where they may.

(With that said, there has to be some dots on "the line" for people who are in an approved combo
but simply no interest in something more "exciting".  I know of a CC who, for whatever reason, disdains the
golf shirt and tows a hard line against, even when it is clearly the most appropriate uniform. In some
cases this has meant very capable people have decided not to play, more because of the attitude then the
garment.)
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on May 31, 2018, 02:04:51 PM
Have you not heard "the Commander is right even when he is wrong?"


Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 31, 2018, 02:46:58 PM
Have you not heard "the Commander is right even when he is wrong?"

Yes, which only goes so far with volunteers - usually to the point where their wallet or calendar gets lighter
then their mental ROI.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: NIN on May 31, 2018, 03:09:13 PM
*cough*
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on May 31, 2018, 03:24:38 PM
^ Acknowledged, except when the CC says "no golf shirts", etc., which happens all the time,
including as I recall, some National Schools, and also, they aren't really, are they?  Really?

A good commander can make the case for what he perceives as the "proper" uniform, through
both his own dress and directives, but at the end of the day, if they don't have it, "whatchoogonedo?"
(assuming you want that person present).

It's a problem of CAP's own making that has been an issue for decades.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: PHall on May 31, 2018, 10:56:05 PM
^ Acknowledged, except when the CC says "no golf shirts", etc., which happens all the time,
including as I recall, some National Schools, and also, they aren't really, are they?  Really?

A good commander can make the case for what he perceives as the "proper" uniform, through
both his own dress and directives, but at the end of the day, if they don't have it, "whatchoogonedo?"
(assuming you want that person present).

It's a problem of CAP's own making that has been an issue for decades.

Well, considering that the Golf shirt is an "optional" uniform and is not required.
The only "required" uniform combination is either the AF Style Service Uniform (aka Class B) or the White Aviator shirt combo depending on personal choice and/or height/weight status.
So a school commander saying no golf shirts is a non-factor. You're "required" to have the uniform they're requiring.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on June 01, 2018, 12:31:31 AM
And if the "no golf" = "field only"?

(For an activity which does not take place outdoors?)

Waive your hand and say, "The power of affectation compels you?"
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Fubar on June 01, 2018, 01:50:41 AM
Well, considering that the Golf shirt is an "optional" uniform and is not required.
The only "required" uniform combination is either the AF Style Service Uniform (aka Class B) or the White Aviator shirt combo depending on personal choice and/or height/weight status.

It's time for that requirement to go. The only required uniform should be the uniform required by the local commander and activity directors. At my unit the commander says wear any uniform you want, just be in a uniform and wear it properly. 98% of the squadron, including the commander wear the polo shirt to meetings.

I've attended a number of classes (SLS/CLC/TLC/UCC) and several wing conferences, each time the UOD was any uniform, just wear it properly. Most of us wore polos.

I've participated in numerous training and real missions serving in several different capacities (but not ground team), wearing the polo uniform properly, just like most of the other folks.

So why is CAP requiring me to spend money on a uniform that's not actually required for anything? Now if some activity or class came up that I wanted to attend and one of you anti-polo people were running it and said everyone has to show up in the fancy clothes, then one of those uniforms would become required for me. But until that day happens (and I'd be surprised if it did), why make me waste closet space on something I don't actually need?

We should never, ever waste a volunteer's time or money. Make me buy a uniform only when I need it to accomplish something I want to do, like buying BDUs after joining the ground team.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: CS on June 01, 2018, 07:58:55 AM
The required uniform is not the polo shirt.  Both cadet and senior's have one required uniform; corporate short sleeve or class b, simple as that.  You have two choices in this organization; that is to volunteer to join and volunteer to leave.  Every year you sign a statement saying you will abide by the rules of the ORGANZATION, so make a choice
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: ironputts on June 01, 2018, 09:26:56 AM
There is nothing like a good uniform discussion!

When attending a CAP event/meeting I always ask, "What is the uniform of the day (UOD)?"

They supply the answer and then I comply.

I have all the uniform types CAP requires. For those who don't, it doesn't hurt to ask if they will accept the uniform you have. I have seen many UODs change after requests.

If they wont then don't go. There are always more events in the future.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on June 01, 2018, 09:46:50 AM
The required uniform is not the polo shirt.  Both cadet and senior's have one required uniform; corporate short sleeve or class b, simple as that.  You have two choices in this organization; that is to volunteer to join and volunteer to leave.  Every year you sign a statement saying you will abide by the rules of the ORGANZATION, so make a choice

The fact that this is 100% true, and yet 100% not true (from a practical level) is the core of the problem.

Comparing this to any situation, military or private sector, where the member in question is either issued
clothing, receives an allowance, or is financially renumerated for their service ignore the reality of
the term "volunteer", especially is CAP's paradigm of ongoing retention issues and high annual cadet churn.

Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: TheSkyHornet on June 01, 2018, 10:59:24 AM
To some of the points above---

A lot of this goes to show the culture of the unit, or perhaps even within that Wing.

If your unit is the sit around the table and chat group (whether official or social), with very little "hands-on" outdoor work, then there should be nothing wrong with people being expected to wear Class Bs, the short-sleeved aviator, or the polo. If that's the environment you're working in, who cares? If someone starts nitpicking that unit's uniformity, they're grabbing at straws for an argument to make a point that doesn't need to be made.

If your unit is the high-moto, outdoorsy field training group, have people wear their utilities or give the option for the "management" group at the command post to wear polos. If they can perform the job in a corporate polo (e.g., running the comms station), so be it. Don't tear apart the mission by nitpicking what they need to wear in a CP, whether inside of a classroom or in a tent.

CAP somewhat falters on the mandatory purchase uniform as service dress because the culture at the home unit, and general operational environment, may not regularly utilize that uniform. So if you want uniformity, encourage the wear of the appropriate uniform for the job you're performing, not the once-a-year (if that) class you take at a professional development training weekend or the unit's annual award ceremony.

Frankly, a senior member who doesn't have a service uniform at an award ceremony, but has a good set of field uniforms that are used on a weekly basis, is alright in my book. Mission first. If they're being asked to shill out the money that for something they're hardly ever going to wear (and maybe they never will), you're going to have a morale/retention issue.

But this topic segued way away from the OCP discussion.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Dwight Dutton on June 01, 2018, 01:41:22 PM
Well, considering that the Golf shirt is an "optional" uniform and is not required.  The only "required" uniform combination is either the AF Style Service Uniform (aka Class B) or the White Aviator shirt combo depending on personal choice and/or height/weight status.  So a school commander saying no golf shirts is a non-factor. You're "required" to have the uniform they're requiring.

And the required uniform - even with all insignia factored in - is cheaper than the polo shirt sold by Vanguard.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: THRAWN on June 01, 2018, 01:57:43 PM
To some of the points above---

A lot of this goes to show the culture of the unit, or perhaps even within that Wing.

CAP somewhat falters on the mandatory purchase uniform as service dress because the culture at the home unit, and general operational environment, may not regularly utilize that uniform.

Culture? No, it's simply not doing what you're supposed to be doing. In all honesty, the basic uniform is just that because the program, CP and PD, is conducted at the unit level for the most part. Those programs do not require any other garment, outside of PT gear. Want to get into the other aspects, the nonrequired aspects, of CAP? Expect to provide the equipment and unis. The basic uniform is required for all members for a reason.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: NIN on June 01, 2018, 03:10:04 PM
And the required uniform - even with all insignia factored in - is cheaper than the polo shirt sold by Vanguard.

^^This
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: TheSkyHornet on June 01, 2018, 04:11:51 PM
To some of the points above---

A lot of this goes to show the culture of the unit, or perhaps even within that Wing.

CAP somewhat falters on the mandatory purchase uniform as service dress because the culture at the home unit, and general operational environment, may not regularly utilize that uniform.

Culture? No, it's simply not doing what you're supposed to be doing. In all honesty, the basic uniform is just that because the program, CP and PD, is conducted at the unit level for the most part. Those programs do not require any other garment, outside of PT gear. Want to get into the other aspects, the nonrequired aspects, of CAP? Expect to provide the equipment and unis. The basic uniform is required for all members for a reason.

If all a unit does is provide PD, there is no operational mission. PD is a form of training, not a CAP mission in itself. P

The Cadet Program, in theory, could get by on just a Blues uniform, as there is no PT uniform in CAP; it's civilian wear. All elements of the Cadet Program from R60-1 can be accomplished in Class Bs. You could also run a unit that never wears Class Bs. It's not a requirement of cadets to wear them; only to own them.

But the Emergency Services mission is more often than not conducted using a variety of field uniforms, whether fatigues or a flight suit. The CAP missions are predominately hands-on in the AO and do not coincide with sitting at a desk during the majority of training and/or execution.

Depending on your role in CAP, you can get by through the entirety of your time in, say 20 years, without ever needing to wear Blues. On the converse, you can get by without ever needing to wear a utility/working uniform. It really depends on what you have volunteered to do and take part in. Why would someone who does nothing but ground team training, SAREXs, and live SAR missions be required to purchase a dress uniform if they never set foot in a formal garrison ceremony?

The minimum uniform, per CAPM 39-1, doesn't define what your role is, nor indicate that you'll actually need to wear it. That's something that's going to be handled at the local echelon depending on how that unit conducts itself and the activities of its members.

To that point, how many members are there that only own the polo shirt and never wear anything else? I'd fathom a lot exist, because it works for them. And they can't be convinced to go buy a set of Blues. Not to mention that a number of people mistakenly equate Blues to the polo shirt, when the polo combination is, in practicality, an equivalent for a utility uniform from Table 1-1 (as previously pointed out).

What uniform you own is really a non-issue.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LSThiker on June 01, 2018, 04:44:19 PM
And the required uniform - even with all insignia factored in - is cheaper than the polo shirt sold by Vanguard.

No it is not.

Going solely with Vanguard prices:

The Vanguard Golf Shirt with Screened Seal is $26.95

The Aviator Shirt alone costs $28.35
The Aviator Shirt with name plate as a SM is $40.55
The Aviator Shirt with nameplate as a Officer is $41.95
The Aviator Shirt with nameplate as an NCO will cost between:  $43.80 to $51.45

So the polo is actually $13.60 to $24.50 below the cost of the aviator shirt with required insignia.

Now if you go with the Polo Cotton with embroidered seal and no name, then the cost of the shirt is $37.10, which still puts you between $3.45 and $14.35 below the cost of the aviator shirt. 

If you go with the Cotton with name, Tactical Golf with no name, or Tactical Golf with name, then you are above the cost. 

Do not really care about the debate, but did want to correct this.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: etodd on June 01, 2018, 05:07:36 PM
I'm going to try and stop putting my opinion on these uniform threads, as everyone knows my position anyway. But its still amusing to read them. I've only been in CAP 2 1/2 years.  Its funny as heck to think about how many decades these same debates have been rehashed over and over. On a daily basis for all that time I guess! Its funny reading while eating popcorn with a RC Cola. Some of you folks just make my day.  :)
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: NIN on June 01, 2018, 05:13:11 PM
I hate to whip out the ol' Dwight Schrute

(https://i.imgur.com/uJ5MhKr.png)

Apples to apples comparison.

Beets, Bears, Battlestar Galactica.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LSThiker on June 01, 2018, 05:19:44 PM
I hate to whip out the ol' Dwight Schrute

Apples to apples comparison.

Beets, Bears, Battlestar Galactica.

Read my post again.  Your comparison is with the Tactical Golf Shirt, which I already stated at the bottom.  Also, your comparison is with an external source, which I already stated using Vanguard solely. 

Also, you are using tactical pants and rigger belt with your polo shirt.  I use the same grey dress pants, black belt, black socks, and black shoes with the polo and the white shirt.  So these are non-factors, if you are going strictly on cost--assuming apple-to-apple comparison.  Those items listed on your spread are really excess or accessory items and are not required.  Therefore, yes, apple to orange comparison for your spreadsheet. 

Even if you get the Aviator shirt from Amazon (and assuming you are a Prime member), the screen-printed Golf shirt is still cheaper than the Aviator Shirt with required attachments. 
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Spam on June 01, 2018, 07:41:45 PM
I hate to whip out the ol' Dwight Schrute

Apples to apples comparison.

Beets, Bears, Battlestar Galactica.

I would like us to adopt the Colonial jacket, which is the most awesome flight jacket I've ever seen. It would even go well with OCP (staying with the thread, yo)!

Since the majority of CAP uniform discussions are completely ungrounded in reality... I figure "why not dream"?

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0346/5761/files/Lieutenant_Starbuck_Promo_34.jpg?v=1503949406)
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Eclipse on June 01, 2018, 07:55:18 PM
Corporate variant shown here...

(https://s15.postimg.cc/lb0499su3/galactica805.jpg)
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LATORRECA on June 02, 2018, 04:10:05 PM
New corporate flight suit and walking GPS.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180602/2040d4fccac736abf23c0db3a9e69739.jpg)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: chuckmilam on June 04, 2018, 09:11:14 AM
Is that BSG colonial jacket suede or terry?  Either would be full of 1970s goodness.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: TheSkyHornet on June 04, 2018, 10:44:37 AM
To my previous point, the aviator shirt and polo shirt combination are not equivalents.

Let's re-read CAPM 39-1, folks. The polo is a working uniform, not a service uniform. If you're instructed to wear Class Bs, and you want to wear the CAP equivalent, you should not be in the polo shirt.

Your financial comparison should be the polo and grey slacks (or tactical pants) against camo.
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: vorteks on June 04, 2018, 11:11:09 AM
To my previous point, the aviator shirt and polo shirt combination are not equivalents.

Let's re-read CAPM 39-1, folks. The polo is a working uniform, not a service uniform. If you're instructed to wear Class Bs, and you want to wear the CAP equivalent, you should not be in the polo shirt.

Your financial comparison should be the polo and grey slacks (or tactical pants) against camo.

This must be a typo in 39-1:

"The Corporate Working
Uniform may be worn in a
flying, field or mission
setting when the USAF‐style
Class B or Corporate Aviator
Shirt Uniform would be
worn
."
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: Dwight Dutton on June 04, 2018, 03:12:47 PM
And the required uniform - even with all insignia factored in - is cheaper than the polo shirt sold by Vanguard.

No it is not.

Going solely with Vanguard prices:

The Vanguard Golf Shirt with Screened Seal is $26.95

The Aviator Shirt alone costs $28.35
The Aviator Shirt with name plate as a SM is $40.55
The Aviator Shirt with nameplate as a Officer is $41.95
The Aviator Shirt with nameplate as an NCO will cost between:  $43.80 to $51.45

So the polo is actually $13.60 to $24.50 below the cost of the aviator shirt with required insignia.

Now if you go with the Polo Cotton with embroidered seal and no name, then the cost of the shirt is $37.10, which still puts you between $3.45 and $14.35 below the cost of the aviator shirt. 

If you go with the Cotton with name, Tactical Golf with no name, or Tactical Golf with name, then you are above the cost. 

Do not really care about the debate, but did want to correct this.
The aviator shirt is $14 http://www.uniformswarehouse.com/shirts/uniform-shirts/emt-white-shirts.html
Buy the rank from Vanguard and now you are at $24.
Add the nameplate and you are at $28

Which is about $9 less than the embroidered shirt.  Buying insignia to pin on the shirt costs less than having it embroidered on that shirt as well.

However this is indeed $1 more than the screened seal polo shirt if you want to be picky
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: LSThiker on June 04, 2018, 04:18:24 PM
However this is indeed $1 more than the screened seal polo shirt if you want to be picky

Which still is cheaper than the aviator. 

However, I would not call that picky, but I would call this picky, as your numbers do not match up:

Aviator shirt:
$13.99 from uniformswarehouse
$10 shipping (uniformwarehouse)
$9.60 Epaulets
$4.00 Nameplate
$8.05 for shipping (Vanguard)
Total:  $45.64

Polo (Screen):
$26.95 shirt
$8.05 shipping
Total:  $35.00

Embroidered cotton (no name):
$37.10 shirt
Free shipping
Total:  $37.10

Embroidered cotton with name:
$37.10 shirt
$9.00 embroidering
Free shipping
Total:  $46.10

*Yes, the shipping information is current and is accurate for my location--according to the respective company representatives*


So even with the $13.99 shirt, it is still cheaper to go with the polo shirt (either screen printed or embroidered) after you factor in the cost of shipping.  Now, I am sure you can bring up/find the $10 shirt from Goodwill or a handme down from a pilot which would drop that cost further.  I could also apply the monthly Vanguard coupons/discounts.  But I think we have what-if this to death and still find that for the general member, the polo is still the cheaper option.  Anyway, I have already spent more than "too much time" on this, moving on.

To my previous point, the aviator shirt and polo shirt combination are not equivalents.

Let's re-read CAPM 39-1, folks. The polo is a working uniform, not a service uniform. If you're instructed to wear Class Bs, and you want to wear the CAP equivalent, you should not be in the polo shirt.

Your financial comparison should be the polo and grey slacks (or tactical pants) against camo.

This would be a bit harder to quantify due to the variations and options, but I am fairly certain that the polo would come out cheaper (in general). 
Title: Re: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
Post by: SarDragon on June 04, 2018, 05:10:36 PM
Wow, that was quite a measuring competition. "Was" being the operative term.
Say goodnight, Dick.