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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
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Author Topic: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...  (Read 32123 times)
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,650

« Reply #240 on: May 21, 2018, 02:47:25 PM »

We got that.

A service dress for "office" and ceremony wear,  A field uniform and a flight uniform.

Seeing as you only need to buy the basic uniform your complaint about the multiform is a red herring. 


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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,948

« Reply #241 on: May 21, 2018, 03:47:18 PM »

We got that.

A service dress for "office" and ceremony wear,  A field uniform and a flight uniform.

Nope, sorry. 

In not one of the cases you indicated does cap have a "uniform".

Nor do the garments prescribed actually fulfill the mission mandates ahead of affectation.

They fail on uniformity and / or propriety.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,402

« Reply #242 on: May 21, 2018, 04:19:20 PM »

(And Bob, if you honestly don't think military officers work uncountable hours "off the clock" and away from their families, vacations, and billable hours, that suggests that you may not appreciate the responsibilities and realities of military service.)

That's very nice, everybody works for free sometimes.  CAP people do it >all the time<, though I don't see how the
comparison is apt or relevent.

As much or more?  Very nice.

Fair enough, NHQ doesn't have the funding to provide uniforms to seniors (or even most cadets for that matter), so
alleviate the issues in the other direction by reducing the variety of the multiforms to those that fulfill a mission mandate instead of affectation.

I would argue that they (NHQ) change the mandatory minimum uniform from service dress to the field uniform.

The majority of senior members performing Emergency Services duties will either be in the corporate polo or some form of fatigues. You should rarely be performing duties at the squadron level in Class Bs or As.

The majority of cadets will be in fatigues. They should rarely be in Class Bs or As. If the intent of CAPR 60-1 is to get cadets out of school, to get hands-on, and to keep them physically active, get them out of a dress uniform and put them to work; get them dirty.

And to Eclipse's point, there is no uniform. It's a "multiform." We can have people in BDUs, ABUs, blue corporate fatigues, or a polo with tactical pants...and all are "in uniform."
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #243 on: May 21, 2018, 04:27:03 PM »

We've all made these observations before. 

Yup, CAP has a lot of uniforms.  Almost exactly as many as our colleagues in the USAF.  And, just like CAP,  a typical AF squadron will typically have folks in many different uniforms on any given day.  And the reasons for both CAP and the AF are the same:  we need the uniforms we have to perform our assigned missions while operating under the constraints imposed by the AF on themselves and on us.

What this has to do with OCPs at this point is a little fuzzy.  But this is CAPTalk and even a uniform thread will morph over time into a different uniform thread.  Because what we wear is much more important than what we do.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,948

« Reply #244 on: May 21, 2018, 04:45:07 PM »

The constraints and reasoning are not the same and it's not an apt comparison.

We've made the points before about the number of variants the USAF and other services
have in their closets, but the reasoning behind them is not the same, and when a UOD
is issued, everyone has the same garment on, and if not, it's because of specific
mission mandates or a relatively rare transition period.

It's relevent to the OCP discussions because this will be another opportunity for NHQ to put
all of its members in the same uniform, at least on the adult side.

It's also relevent because we already have members, mostly parents asking if they
should go direct top the OCP.
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #245 on: May 21, 2018, 06:18:59 PM »

The constraints and reasoning are not the same and it's not an apt comparison.

We've made the points before about the number of variants the USAF and other services
have in their closets, but the reasoning behind them is not the same, and when a UOD
is issued, everyone has the same garment on, and if not, it's because of specific
mission mandates or a relatively rare transition period.

You can keep saying that, but it is still incorrect on both counts.

The reasoning behind both CAP and AF uniform collections is indeed exactly the same -- mission-driven subject to regulations.  We need flying, service, and field uniforms for exactly the same reasons the AF needs them.  (We could certainly debate whether we need optional dress uniforms, but I don't think that is the thrust of your argument.)

The primary reason we have a full set of corporate uniforms is because the AF holds us to the same height/weight/grooming restrictions they hold themselves to (plus some slack.)  The only difference is they kick out even career-oriented members who do not meet their standards while we allow them to continue serving, as we always have.

And it's possible you have spent more time with AD USAF squadrons that I have, although I doubt it.  Sure they have a UOD, but it will vary considerably throughout the unit.  Maintainers, pilots, and administrative folks all dress differently on the same day.  As do a host of others (food service workers, medical folks, recruiters, etc., etc., etc..)

And I we agree that we should be telling parents as well as members loudly and clearly not to invest in OCPs until CAP follows our AF colleagues, as we have always done.  Still not sure how your argument of "there are too many uniforms, some of our members feel distrespected because of corporates, and NHQ should make everyone dress the same" fits into the thread.  But I am certainly not the Thread Police.  For which we can both be grateful.


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Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 70

« Reply #246 on: May 21, 2018, 07:52:57 PM »

Get an MOU with Ma Blue that allows cadets U18 to wear the current USAF duty and CONUS field uniform within one year of adoption by USAF. Seniors and cadets over 18 not within H/W standards for AD USAF personnel wear corporates. Full stop. No more cosplaying Air Force. 

Easy.
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 689

« Reply #247 on: May 22, 2018, 12:29:21 AM »

I would argue that they (NHQ) change the mandatory minimum uniform from service dress to the field uniform.

How about ditching this entirely? As a volunteer force who pays for all their own uniforms and equipment, why not have us just buy what we need?
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Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,274
Unit: Worry

« Reply #248 on: May 22, 2018, 02:46:30 AM »

No more cosplaying Air Force. 

If all you are seeing is Air Force cosplay, there are other orgs that might suit you better.
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Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 70

« Reply #249 on: May 22, 2018, 02:26:49 PM »

If all you are seeing is Air Force cosplay, there are other orgs that might suit you better.

Seniors have no need to wear USAF uniforms. No blues. No ABUs. No OCPs.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,948

« Reply #250 on: May 22, 2018, 02:36:37 PM »

I would generally agree with that, presuming everyone was in whites,
and moreso if the !@#$% whites had a hat.
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NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,929
Unit: of issue

« Reply #251 on: May 22, 2018, 02:38:35 PM »

Seniors have no need to wear USAF uniforms. No blues. No ABUs. No OCPs.

Except for the fact that we're in the Air Force Auxiliary?
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,948

« Reply #252 on: May 22, 2018, 02:42:42 PM »

Seniors have no need to wear USAF uniforms. No blues. No ABUs. No OCPs.

Except for the fact that we're in the Air Force Auxiliary?

So it's important for 1/2 the adults then (probably less)?
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,124
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #253 on: May 22, 2018, 02:44:36 PM »

Seniors have no need to wear USAF uniforms. No blues. No ABUs. No OCPs.

Except for the fact that we're in the Air Force Auxiliary?

Yes, the civilian auxiliary. Repeat civilian. Just like the civilian VFW, which wears street clothes with a Blazer and a hat. I think that would be a viable model for our adult members... AF style for cadets.

Vr
Spam
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NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,929
Unit: of issue

« Reply #254 on: May 22, 2018, 02:46:07 PM »

The primary reason we have a full set of corporate uniforms is because the AF holds us to the same height/weight/grooming restrictions they hold themselves to (plus some slack.)  The only difference is they kick out even career-oriented members who do not meet their standards while we allow them to continue serving, as we always have.

Its my understanding that the USAF no longer has a height/weight standard.

There is a waist measurement as part of their PFT scoring (with an "abdominal circumference" measurement > 39 garnering you ZERO points for the PT test), and there is a "you must be as tall as Tooey's finger to enlist" sort of height/weight thing.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,559
Unit: Classified

« Reply #255 on: May 22, 2018, 04:01:54 PM »

The primary reason we have a full set of corporate uniforms is because the AF holds us to the same height/weight/grooming restrictions they hold themselves to (plus some slack.)  The only difference is they kick out even career-oriented members who do not meet their standards while we allow them to continue serving, as we always have.

Its my understanding that the USAF no longer has a height/weight standard.

There is a waist measurement as part of their PFT scoring (with an "abdominal circumference" measurement > 39 garnering you ZERO points for the PT test), and there is a "you must be as tall as Tooey's finger to enlist" sort of height/weight thing.

Correct there is no more H/W for the AF.  It's a PT test and 4 failures in 2 years and you are out.... 

There is a H/W for entry but once you are in and complete BMT and Tech School it no longer applies..
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ColonelJack
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Posts: 1,362
Unit: SER-GA-153

« Reply #256 on: May 23, 2018, 06:43:27 AM »

If all you are seeing is Air Force cosplay, there are other orgs that might suit you better.

Seniors have no need to wear USAF uniforms. No blues. No ABUs. No OCPs.

Why?

Jack
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Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., Civil Air Patrol
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,092

« Reply #257 on: May 23, 2018, 10:00:09 AM »

If all you are seeing is Air Force cosplay, there are other orgs that might suit you better.

Seniors have no need to wear USAF uniforms if they don't want to. No blues. No ABUs. No OCPs.

FTFY.

If you don't want to wear the AF-style uniforms, then don't. If you do want to and you meet the requirements, then do. It's just that simple.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,402

« Reply #258 on: May 23, 2018, 10:11:57 AM »

It's been preferred that seniors working with cadets wear the Air Force-style uniform as a "lead by example" model and to enforce uniformity among the cadet ranks as a training tool. This is a challenge in an organization which has both an active, operational mission and a youth leadership program because we have uniform sets that highly vary across the work arena in such a small locale.

From the military side, you have a field uniform, service dress, a flight uniform, and a number of distinctive operational uniforms that are visibly different from the norm depending on the AO. CAP has incorporated a similar thought process, which works, but it's visibly so intermixed at the local level. On the military front, you're generally going to see the garrison in similar attire on a single day, albeit some exceptions due to work detail. But, usually, if one person is in fatigues, everyone else in the office is in fatigues. If one person is in service dress, everyone is in service dress. With CAP, we opted away from distinctive uniforms (e.g., whites in the summer vs. blues in the winter, dessert camo vs. foliage, etc.), and brought in the corporate wear which was reserved for members who elected to wear them or did not meet H&W standards. It sort of corrupted the military mindset (and let's not get into the "changing the uniform every time someone sneezes" topic).

JROTC and other paramilitary youth organizations wear a military-style uniform, whether reflective of an active-use (in service) uniform or retired (phased out) uniform. Sea Cadets wear NWUs. Young Marines wear BDUs. Army JROTC cadet wear ACUs. Air Force JROTC cadets wear ABUs. They each wear a service dress uniform respective of the 'mother branch.' CAP is not abnormal here.

No, CAP does not need a camouflage uniform to conduct SAR missions. Neither does the Air Force. Still, their flight crews wear OD flight suits or camouflage for domestic SAR. It's not an abnormal concept. It's the same uniform they'd wear on a deployment. That said, CAP is not deployed to international combat zones; we don't 'need' to stay concealed.

But, by logic, if we're going to have a cadet corps that wears a military-style uniform in all aspects of the program, why not the senior corps in all aspects of their missions? Uniformity is just that.

What I think we should do currently, before any uniforms change, is hold unit commanders to enforce existing standards. If the regulations state the conditions under which the uniform is or is not worn, that should be upheld. We seem to have a tough time, in some instances, having people correctly wear their uniform as it currently exists. There are far too many people who cannot maintain grooming standards for the uniform which they elect to wear, and it goes uncorrected. There are far too many people who do not meet H&W for the uniform which they elect to wear, and it goes uncorrected. Switching to a common-type uniform does not address that, absent of waiving all standards and getting rid of them.
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Dwight Dutton
Forum Regular

Posts: 133

« Reply #259 on: May 23, 2018, 12:57:34 PM »

No, CAP does not need a camouflage uniform to conduct SAR missions. Neither does the Air Force. Still, their flight crews wear OD flight suits or camouflage for domestic SAR. It's not an abnormal concept. It's the same uniform they'd wear on a deployment. That said, CAP is not deployed to international combat zones; we don't 'need' to stay concealed.

I meet what 39-1 calls USAF standards, (70" tall & 192 Lb.  USAF max=199, CAP max=219) but the weight is in the wrong place and it really does look like I do not.  The last group photo I was in I looked, well awful.  A perceived violation is just as bad as the real thing in this case.  I wear corporate because its cheaper, more comfortable, and I wore the real stuff every day for 21 years already.

No camouflage uniform was ever designed for CAP.  We get USAF surplus stuff, and it comes in the color that it is.

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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
 


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