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Author Topic: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...  (Read 32163 times)
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,124
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #120 on: April 04, 2018, 05:59:01 PM »


Yeah, no.

I can't say how completely I disagree with your opinions there. Both in terms of core value busts and in terms of logic (the only person who can monitor their compliance is the individual?).

Uniform wear should be the simplest thing in CAP, and its the worst waster of time, due to human egos. There is (in my equally worthless opinion) a strong correlation between the self-denial of noncompliant members who persist in trying to wear USAF styles, and the FAA's 5 hazardous attitudes. Having participated in several "difficult adult conversations" lately on the topic, I'm fine with saying goodbye to a couple of the members involved (who also had prior ops/safety incidents leading to my observation as stated). For such guys, my attitude is, if you can't be honest with yourself about your own weight and balance and want to argue with me about your need to "USAF cosplay", why would I trust you with our airplanes or most importantly our personnel?

I'm just fine with the suspension, etc. actions we've quietly taken recently and the members who've left rather than comply, as they won't be around to push their attitudes and liability onto the team. Its the little things that add up, both positively and negatively.

Spam


References:
- FAA PHAK, Chapter 16, aeronautical decision making, 5 hazardous attitudes at
http://www.avhf.com/html/Library/faa-h-8083-25-4of4.pdf

- "Pilots who should scare us"
http://johnandmartha.kingschools.com/2014/09/26/pilots-scare-us/


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shuman14
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 961
Unit: NHQ-996

« Reply #121 on: April 04, 2018, 10:59:58 PM »

Quote
"USAF cosplay"

I just spit Dr. Pepper all over my Laptop! I never laughed so hard, thank you Spam for that!  ;D
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Joseph J. Clune
Major (Promotable), Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,402

« Reply #122 on: April 05, 2018, 06:24:30 AM »


Yeah, no.

I can't say how completely I disagree with your opinions there. Both in terms of core value busts and in terms of logic (the only person who can monitor their compliance is the individual?).

Uniform wear should be the simplest thing in CAP, and its the worst waster of time, due to human egos. There is (in my equally worthless opinion) a strong correlation between the self-denial of noncompliant members who persist in trying to wear USAF styles, and the FAA's 5 hazardous attitudes. Having participated in several "difficult adult conversations" lately on the topic, I'm fine with saying goodbye to a couple of the members involved (who also had prior ops/safety incidents leading to my observation as stated). For such guys, my attitude is, if you can't be honest with yourself about your own weight and balance and want to argue with me about your need to "USAF cosplay", why would I trust you with our airplanes or most importantly our personnel?

I'm just fine with the suspension, etc. actions we've quietly taken recently and the members who've left rather than comply, as they won't be around to push their attitudes and liability onto the team. Its the little things that add up, both positively and negatively.

Spam


References:
- FAA PHAK, Chapter 16, aeronautical decision making, 5 hazardous attitudes at
http://www.avhf.com/html/Library/faa-h-8083-25-4of4.pdf

- "Pilots who should scare us"
http://johnandmartha.kingschools.com/2014/09/26/pilots-scare-us/

*bows*

*presents food*

*slowly backs away*

 :clap:
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Brit_in_CAP
Seasoned Member

Posts: 394
Unit: MER-VA-002

« Reply #123 on: April 06, 2018, 09:49:09 AM »

"USAF cosplay"

Really good!  The former Brit here had to look up the meaning but....really good!   

:clap:

Like shuman14, I nearly drowned on my drink....
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,873

« Reply #124 on: April 06, 2018, 10:24:19 AM »

Sounds like another fantastic opportunity to put everybody in BBDU and be done with the cammie nonsense. But then what ever would we discuss?
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,402

« Reply #125 on: April 06, 2018, 11:38:48 AM »

Sounds like another fantastic opportunity to put everybody in BBDU and be done with the cammie nonsense. But then what ever would we discuss?

Whether or not CAP it Total Force 100% of the time or only during mission assignments
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LATORRECA
Seasoned Member

Posts: 240

« Reply #126 on: April 06, 2018, 04:15:25 PM »


Yeah, no.

I can't say how completely I disagree with your opinions there. Both in terms of core value busts and in terms of logic (the only person who can monitor their compliance is the individual?).

Uniform wear should be the simplest thing in CAP, and its the worst waster of time, due to human egos. There is (in my equally worthless opinion) a strong correlation between the self-denial of noncompliant members who persist in trying to wear USAF styles, and the FAA's 5 hazardous attitudes. Having participated in several "difficult adult conversations" lately on the topic, I'm fine with saying goodbye to a couple of the members involved (who also had prior ops/safety incidents leading to my observation as stated). For such guys, my attitude is, if you can't be honest with yourself about your own weight and balance and want to argue with me about your need to "USAF cosplay", why would I trust you with our airplanes or most importantly our personnel?

I'm just fine with the suspension, etc. actions we've quietly taken recently and the members who've left rather than comply, as they won't be around to push their attitudes and liability onto the team. Its the little things that add up, both positively and negatively.

Spam


References:
- FAA PHAK, Chapter 16, aeronautical decision making, 5 hazardous attitudes at
http://www.avhf.com/html/Library/faa-h-8083-25-4of4.pdf

- "Pilots who should scare us"
http://johnandmartha.kingschools.com/2014/09/26/pilots-scare-us/

     After so long in CAP, I do agree about the following, be in the proper uniforms in order to flight only for insurance purposes or to show some uniformity. I guess is cool for someone to wear the USAF, jeez! I used it, however I do not worry about the group of guys here (CAPTALK). I worry about the other hundreds upon hundreds of Senior member that if you really ask them where to find the regulations about uniforms, white letters, addendum or inserts about the 39-1 or uniforms, they won’t be able to tell you.

      I agree with changing to BBDU and finish this nonsense.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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CAPLTC
Forum Regular

Posts: 146
Unit: MER

« Reply #127 on: April 08, 2018, 05:20:16 PM »

Uniform wear should be the simplest thing in CAP, and its the worst waster of time, due to human egos.
There is (in my equally worthless opinion) a strong correlation between the self-denial of noncompliant members who persist in trying to wear USAF styles, and the FAA's 5 hazardous attitudes.
Having participated in several "difficult adult conversations" lately on the topic, I'm fine with saying goodbye to a couple of the members involved (who also had prior ops/safety incidents leading to my observation as stated).
For such guys, my attitude is, if you can't be honest with yourself about your own weight and balance and want to argue with me about your need to "USAF cosplay", why would I trust you with our airplanes or most importantly our personnel?

Preach it brother.
Nowhere in my professional or military career do I see more focus on uniform "stuff" than in CAP.
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"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they’re so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis
GZCP31
Recruit

Posts: 36
Unit: Somewhere

« Reply #128 on: April 09, 2018, 10:05:11 AM »

Sounds like another fantastic opportunity to put everybody in BBDU and be done with the cammie nonsense. But then what ever would we discuss?

Something not everyone understands. The Camo is somewhat cooler in the summer than the BBDUs in the Southern United States due to its lighter color. When it is over 100F for several days with the sun beating down on you, and nights in the 80s or 90s the BBDUs are the worst uniform. They just absorb the heat.  Something closer to tan is much better. I would love to see a modified short sleeve WWII Khaki uniform come back for summer use as it would worked well, especially with tactical cargo pants. For this uniform, use the Propper Battle - Rip Short Sleeve Dress Shirt in Khaki and PROPPER Ripstop BDU Uniform Trousers as the combination. This this you could stay much cooler in the heat.

The Whites and Greys are not a great work uniform but it could save you from heat exhaustion. Just authorizing a white polo would be great. Add dark navy name and pilot embroidery and it would be a great summer uniform combination. 

Sometimes functionality is better that how you look.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 10:17:04 AM by GZCP31 » Logged
Former OK Wing DCL/DCA Mid 90s, Rejoined after 17 years out.
1LT. Communications-Master
Squadron Deputy Commander, Emergency Services Training Officer,  Professional Development Officer,  Administration Officer, Personnel Officer, Communications Officer and Aerospace Education Officer
chuckmilam
Forum Regular

Posts: 116
Unit: GLR-KY-216

« Reply #129 on: April 09, 2018, 10:44:01 AM »

White?  I can see the pit stains and ring-around-the-collar already.  The dark may be hot, but it at least hides the poor laundering habits of some folks. 
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,873

« Reply #130 on: April 09, 2018, 10:47:34 AM »

Bunk.

The southern part of the country does not have a monopoly on heat and humidity and if you're unable to take proper precautions to prevent heat injuries, no color of fabric is going to help you. There are probably somewhere in the area of a few hundred police departments in "the south" that wear dark colored duty uniforms and for a lot longer than the vast majority of CAP members do. How is it that they can function without falling down every 30 feet from heat exhaustion and we can't?

Sounds like another fantastic opportunity to put everybody in BBDU and be done with the cammie nonsense. But then what ever would we discuss?

Something not everyone understands. The Camo is somewhat cooler in the summer than the BBDUs in the Southern United States due to its lighter color. When it is over 100F for several days with the sun beating down on you, and nights in the 80s or 90s the BBDUs are the worst uniform. They just absorb the heat.  Something closer to tan is much better. I would love to see a modified short sleeve WWII Khaki uniform come back for summer use as it would worked well, especially with tactical cargo pants. For this uniform, use the Propper Battle - Rip Short Sleeve Dress Shirt in Khaki and PROPPER Ripstop BDU Uniform Trousers as the combination. This this you could stay much cooler in the heat.

The Whites and Greys are not a great work uniform but it could save you from heat exhaustion. Just authorizing a white polo would be great. Add dark navy name and pilot embroidery and it would be a great summer uniform combination. 

Sometimes functionality is better that how you look.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
GZCP31
Recruit

Posts: 36
Unit: Somewhere

« Reply #131 on: April 09, 2018, 11:07:36 AM »

How is it that they can function without falling down every 30 feet from heat exhaustion and we can't?



It is called acclimating/conditioning. Quite a few of the  members that are in the BBDU are not in the best of shape. Training and conditioning to the BBDU and the corporate flight suit, would be the best option. I do not know of anyone in CAP that wears their uniform on a daily basis to work in. Giving a lighter, cooler option is an alternative.

Part of the uniforms for LEOs in the south also include their body armor and most use wicking undershirts which help. Other things such as air conditioned patrol cars also give a break from the heat. Most departments I have seen in Texas have alternative uniforms that are shorts and t-shirts as part of the summer duty uniforms for events. Most have short-sleeve uniforms and some have alternative colors for extended outdoor duty. 

Take a look at the departments that spend a majority of their time in the woods or in the field away from air conditioning and buildings. They are the ones wearing the lighter color uniforms. Border Patrol, Parks and Wildlife, Fish and Game all use Khakis or something close.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 11:13:39 AM by GZCP31 » Logged
Former OK Wing DCL/DCA Mid 90s, Rejoined after 17 years out.
1LT. Communications-Master
Squadron Deputy Commander, Emergency Services Training Officer,  Professional Development Officer,  Administration Officer, Personnel Officer, Communications Officer and Aerospace Education Officer
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,873

« Reply #132 on: April 09, 2018, 11:32:09 AM »

Again, bunk. Training and conditioning?

This is a question for all the SE types: how many heat related injuries have been reported that are directly attributed to the BBDU? Anybody? Over/under on this?

The garment comes in various weights, just the same as the BDU. There are wicking undergarments available. AETC puts out annual guidance on the prevention of heat related injuries. When it's hot out, don't wear the winter weight. Increase water intake. Remove the coat. Provide cooling breaks. This is not difficult.

How is it that they can function without falling down every 30 feet from heat exhaustion and we can't?



It is called acclimating/conditioning. Quite a few of the  members that are in the BBDU are not in the best of shape. Training and conditioning to the BBDU and the corporate flight suit, would be the best option. I do not know of anyone in CAP that wears their uniform on a daily basis to work in. Giving a lighter, cooler option is an alternative.

Part of the uniforms for LEOs in the south also include their body armor and most use wicking undershirts which help. Other things such as air conditioned patrol cars also give a break from the heat. Most departments I have seen in Texas have alternative uniforms that are shorts and t-shirts as part of the summer duty uniforms for events. Most have short-sleeve uniforms and some have alternative colors for extended outdoor duty. 

Take a look at the departments that spend a majority of their time in the woods or in the field away from air conditioning and buildings. They are the ones wearing the lighter color uniforms. Border Patrol, Parks and Wildlife, Fish and Game all use Khakis or something close.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
GZCP31
Recruit

Posts: 36
Unit: Somewhere

« Reply #133 on: April 09, 2018, 11:46:49 AM »

I am not going to get in to an argument. Training and Conditioning do play a part, so do cooling breaks. Uniforms also play a part in the total picture for heat (or cold) related injury.
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Former OK Wing DCL/DCA Mid 90s, Rejoined after 17 years out.
1LT. Communications-Master
Squadron Deputy Commander, Emergency Services Training Officer,  Professional Development Officer,  Administration Officer, Personnel Officer, Communications Officer and Aerospace Education Officer
LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,830
Unit: Earth

« Reply #134 on: April 09, 2018, 12:05:44 PM »

Again, bunk. Training and conditioning?

This is a question for all the SE types: how many heat related injuries have been reported that are directly attributed to the BBDU? Anybody? Over/under on this?

The garment comes in various weights, just the same as the BDU. There are wicking undergarments available. AETC puts out annual guidance on the prevention of heat related injuries. When it's hot out, don't wear the winter weight. Increase water intake. Remove the coat. Provide cooling breaks. This is not difficult.

Fabric color does play a part in heat transfer.  That is, dark clothes are worse than lighter clothes, which was has been studied.  For example Stoll and Chianta studied this in 1971, which found lighter was better.  However, in 1980 Shkolnik et al. published the article trying to explain why it is better to wear black in the desert as they studied the Bedouins, which wear black robes.  Unfortunately, fabric has changed and emphasis has not put any new additional studies on the subject.  Today, while conventional wisdom goes with lighter is better than dark, I do not think it matters as much as other factors.  With changes in fabric technology, the type of fabric matters more than the color, but is still part of the equation.

As I have worn both CFU and the BDUs, I do not think it matters.  There are numerous factors that play into heat injury.
Is the person acclimatized to a hot environment?  Living in the South does not acclimatize you to the heat if you spend 90% of your day in AC, as opposed to a person that lives in the North and performs hard labor outside in low 90s. 
Is the person physically fit?  The more fit you are, statistically the better you are able to handle heat stress.
Is the person drinking enough water?
Does the person have restricted airflow?  (tactical vest vs backpack vs nothing)
Type of fabric?
Type of work?
Humidity?

I doubt that you could even control for various factors when trying to compare Blue CFU to BDUs to ABUs.  There is just too many variables if you perform a meta-analysis on heat injuries for CAP.   Nevertheless, I doubt there is any significant (p<0.05) difference between the CFU and BDUs in regards to heat injury.

Hot is hot no matter the color you wear.
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CAPLTC
Forum Regular

Posts: 146
Unit: MER

« Reply #135 on: April 12, 2018, 11:15:33 PM »

Hot is hot no matter the color you wear.

I had not considered his point, but he's correct.
Dark navy blue is indeed a poor choice in a Texas summer. So are woodland BDUs...
100% cotton BDUs soak up sweat and hold on to it, even on a hot, sunny 0% humid desert day they remain wet and yucky.

The CENTCOM-AOR issue FRACU in Multicam is probably the best uniform we've ever been issued.
Not on our menu of options though... :)
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"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they’re so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis
LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,830
Unit: Earth

« Reply #136 on: April 13, 2018, 12:07:50 AM »

I had not considered his point, but he's correct.
Dark navy blue is indeed a poor choice in a Texas summer. So are woodland BDUs...
100% cotton BDUs soak up sweat and hold on to it, even on a hot, sunny 0% humid desert day they remain wet and yucky.

The CENTCOM-AOR issue FRACU in Multicam is probably the best uniform we've ever been issued.
Not on our menu of options though... :)

I own very little cotton.  Pretty much the only cotton I own is either dress shirts for work, which are really cotton/polyester blends, or uniform parts for CAP, such as the cotton/polyester ripstop BDUs or cotton shorts, shirts, and underwear for flying (Nomex).  When out backpacking, whether it is 30F or 100F, I wear a mixture of merino wool, nylon, and/or polyester.  That is exactly the reason though, 100% cotton sucks up water and holds it.  Just not that great of an outdoor fabric anymore, when caught in a rainstorm or during a water crossing 

Interestingly, the FRACUs are 10% nylon, 65% FR-Rayon, and 25% Para-Aramid.   

I actually find the corporate polo with tactical pants to be best option for GT work in the hot summer heat (regardless of whether you are in the far North or far South, as I have been).  Just wish they would get "tactical" polo long sleeve shirts.  Nevertheless, as a person that has worn both the CFU and BDUs in both the North and South summers for extended periods of time, I can honestly say that there is no difference due to color.  They are both hot due to poor fabric choices and restricted airflow.  I would take backpacking 20 miles in west Texas heat while wearing performance outdoor gear over having to do GT work in the North summer with BDUs any day of the week (if I really had an option).

The FRACUs were so much better in the Middle East heat, then regular ACUs in Fort Sam Houston during summer.     
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chuckmilam
Forum Regular

Posts: 116
Unit: GLR-KY-216

« Reply #137 on: April 13, 2018, 08:48:29 AM »

The new 100% poly material corporate working uniform (AKA the golf/polo shirt) is a tremendous improvement over the old knit cotton version.  It's more wrinkle-resistant, feels much cooler (in both senses of the word), and doesn't act like a lint trap in the dryer.  Months later, I'm still picking lint off my old cotton version from when some soft white baby laundry got mixed in with my CAP laundry. 
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Dwight Dutton
Forum Regular

Posts: 133

« Reply #138 on: April 13, 2018, 10:53:03 AM »

The Whites and Greys are not a great work uniform but it could save you from heat exhaustion. Just authorizing a white polo would be great. Add dark navy name and pilot embroidery and it would be a great summer uniform combination.  Sometimes functionality is better that how you look.

We HAD a white polo shirt.  It was one of those rare cases where a uniform item was phased out that had no replacement.  Naturally it was one we needed.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,124
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #139 on: April 13, 2018, 11:59:54 AM »

The Whites and Greys are not a great work uniform but it could save you from heat exhaustion. Just authorizing a white polo would be great. Add dark navy name and pilot embroidery and it would be a great summer uniform combination.  Sometimes functionality is better that how you look.

We HAD a white polo shirt.  It was one of those rare cases where a uniform item was phased out that had no replacement.  Naturally it was one we needed.

The other being the CAP Guayabera shirt, which was expressly designed for hot weather use, and was removed without replacement. I was serving in FLWG at the time and recall a number of members commenting on how comfortable it was in very hot, muggy weather.

(Good enough for Reagan to wear... good enough for me)

V/r
Spam

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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
 


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