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Author Topic: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...  (Read 33478 times)
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,300

« Reply #100 on: March 31, 2018, 06:47:40 PM »

Minor deviations, say 2-3 pounds post holiday festivities, are one thing. Typically, they self-correct within a week or two. Complete disregard of the manual is another. Just because a member can find an AF uniform to fit his 50 lbs over the h/w limits body, doesn't mean he can wear it, even if looks acceptable in it. We have all seen this member far too many times.
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Baker
Recruit

Posts: 9
Unit: NER-PA-253

« Reply #101 on: March 31, 2018, 06:59:09 PM »

Minor can be whatever its said to be, I would venture within 5%, but again, that's only my opinion.  I've seen lifters way over table weight that bench press 300+ and can ruck for days with a 60 pound pack.  That's why I say there needs to be some discretion allotted to commanders if they have a person like that in their unit.

By no means should a person with a visible gut be wearing the AF uniform, don't get me wrong on that point.  What I've been saying all along is that some sensible discretion can go a long way and if someone is in a command position I tend to trust their better judgement over "just following the regs".
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Garett Baker
CAP 2LT
Former U.S. Army
Former C/2LT
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,591
Unit: Classified

« Reply #102 on: March 31, 2018, 07:09:12 PM »

Incidentally according to AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2905, yes there is.  Check section 3.6.5 before telling me there is no tape test (also known as a BMI check). 

There is no tape test. And I think I definitively know more about that topic than you. 
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,704

« Reply #103 on: March 31, 2018, 07:20:05 PM »

Abd,

Can you explain how the BMI test is done?

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Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,234

« Reply #104 on: March 31, 2018, 07:25:35 PM »

Minor can be whatever its said to be, I would venture within 5%, but again, that's only my opinion.  I've seen lifters way over table weight that bench press 300+ and can ruck for days with a 60 pound pack.  That's why I say there needs to be some discretion allotted to commanders if they have a person like that in their unit.

By no means should a person with a visible gut be wearing the AF uniform, don't get me wrong on that point.  What I've been saying all along is that some sensible discretion can go a long way and if someone is in a command position I tend to trust their better judgement over "just following the regs".

The regs are intended to create a national standard of appearance, one which has been historically largely (heh) ignored by many at some of the highest points
of the organization's leadership.

"5%" of a weight allowance means you're now at 10.5% over the USAF tables the CAP tables were based on.
And how would you even know that number unless you're weighing people?

One of CAP's top 5 failings is the avoidance of uncomfortable conversations in the name of retention,
ultimately defeating the intention, and negatively impacting the organization's credibility both
internally and externally.

As mentioned above, few notice holiday creep, but if you believe that enforcing a standard the membership
has raised their hand and signed their name in a promise to obey will impact retention, then one could rightly
ask where the line of disobedience ends and who gets to decide which regs are "important".

If CAP would enforce all the rules all the time, then change might be forced on the organizaiton in the
form of negative retention, or it may see a general raising of its credibility across the board.

Either is a preferential outcome to what exists today - namely members and commanders empowered to decide which regs are important, and no
ramifications for disobedience.
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,591
Unit: Classified

« Reply #105 on: March 31, 2018, 07:26:36 PM »

Abd,

Can you explain how the BMI test is done?

I can yes.  But I won't not going to be baited.  There is no tape test for the AF and the BMI is not the primary means of determing fitness.
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goblin
Forum Regular

Posts: 177

« Reply #106 on: March 31, 2018, 08:08:13 PM »

Abd,

Can you explain how the BMI test is done?

I can yes.  But I won't not going to be baited.  There is no tape test for the AF and the BMI is not the primary means of determing fitness.

Iím not sure why everyone is dancing around the phraseology of this.

You get waist measured during the AF PT test (3x)
The average of those 3 measurements is worth 20% of your overall score.

Whatís the confusion?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Stonewall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,934

« Reply #107 on: April 01, 2018, 07:19:48 AM »

Incidentally according to AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2905, yes there is.  Check section 3.6.5 before telling me there is no tape test (also known as a BMI check). 

There is no tape test. And I think I definitively know more about that topic than you.

The first step of the AF PT test, after signing in, is getting your height and weight checked. This is NOT part of your score and is ONLY used for health awareness. The next step is the abdominal circumference measurement, WHICH IS calculated into your fitness score and is 20% (20 points) of your overall score. Anything over a 39Ē measurement is FAILING.  And no, it doesnít matter what size pants you wear because we donít measure people where they wear their pants, especially for the 20-something crowd who often wear their pants as low as they can.

Your body composition is irrelevant AS LONG as your waist is under 39Ē.

Even if you have a passing waist measurement, letís say a 37 1/2Ē, you can still fail if you donít do well enough in all, some, or one of the other categories.  In fact, you can get a ďpassing scoreĒ of above 75% and still fail if you failed to meet the minimum in one of the categories.

There are many people in the AF who have guts protruding over their belts because the measurement takes place above the iliac crest, so while their gut may be greater than 39Ē, where they are actually measured is not.  I have seen this countless times in person over the past 4 years where Iíve filed the role of Physical Training Leader (PTL) and Unit Fitness Program Manager (UFPM). In the past 4 years I have graded or monitored over 1,000 official PT tests. I literally just turned over these duties on Friday to my replacement, so Iíd say my information is up to date.
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CAPLTC
Forum Regular

Posts: 161
Unit: MER

« Reply #108 on: April 01, 2018, 10:59:42 AM »

Your body composition is irrelevant AS LONG as your waist is under 39Ē.

Agree, true.
It is a very simplistic and stupid way to calculate anything.
39" is 39" regardless if you are 5'6" or 6'4" ... height plays no factor in the USAF calculation.
Except for the Marines, all the armed services want you to look to be weak and skinny.
Very unhealthy model longterm.
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"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until theyíre so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis
Stonewall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,934

« Reply #109 on: April 01, 2018, 11:54:48 AM »

Your body composition is irrelevant AS LONG as your waist is under 39Ē.

Agree, true.
It is a very simplistic and stupid way to calculate anything.
39" is 39" regardless if you are 5'6" or 6'4" ... height plays no factor in the USAF calculation.
Except for the Marines, all the armed services want you to look to be weak and skinny.
Very unhealthy model longterm.

Won't argue there. Health and fitness are an important part of being a fighting force; most won't argue that. But the fact that Airmen are praised for being thin, and appearing fit, but when it comes down to it, lack strength and endurance. Sure, looking good in uniform is nice, but that should be a secondary effect of being fit to fight and not the goal.

A medical physical should assess your health and a fitness test should evaluate your fitness, one test to test fitness and health is silly.
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wingnut55
Seasoned Member

Posts: 355

« Reply #110 on: April 01, 2018, 11:59:36 PM »

It was announced in the Air Force times that the decision was already made to switch and to have the Airmen turn in their ABUs for replacement, however
the it was not determined on a time line. The immediate replacement would cost  $450million, so a 3 to 4 year phase out would only cost $100 Million, and that may be the final time line.

USAF members returning from the Sand Box are allowed to continue to wear the Army pattern while all JTACs have already converted, it is typical of CAP HQ having a handle on
the latest INTEL, since I knew about the rumors years ago since most USAF personnel in combat had been wearing the Army pattern for almost 10 years????

Maybe that's why the USAF approved CAPs conversion. For me it's another $300.00 CAP FUBAR, and when the change is made I am going to just wear the golf shirt and the flight suit while in support of Greenflag Ops.  I suspect the ABU phase-out will take at least 5 years.
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,591
Unit: Classified

« Reply #111 on: April 02, 2018, 10:11:13 AM »

It was announced in the Air Force times that the decision was already made to switch and to have the Airmen turn in their ABUs for replacement, however
the it was not determined on a time line. The immediate replacement would cost  $450million, so a 3 to 4 year phase out would only cost $100 Million, and that may be the final time line.

USAF members returning from the Sand Box are allowed to continue to wear the Army pattern while all JTACs have already converted, it is typical of CAP HQ having a handle on
the latest INTEL, since I knew about the rumors years ago since most USAF personnel in combat had been wearing the Army pattern for almost 10 years????

Maybe that's why the USAF approved CAPs conversion. For me it's another $300.00 CAP FUBAR, and when the change is made I am going to just wear the golf shirt and the flight suit while in support of Greenflag Ops.  I suspect the ABU phase-out will take at least 5 years.

None of the Times publications are credible sources same with Military.com.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,234

« Reply #112 on: April 02, 2018, 10:40:09 AM »

None of the Times publications are credible sources same with Military.com.

While certainly espousing opinions, to say the various military times publications are not credible
flies in the face of reality.

They are not authoritative, but they are certainly credible on the mean.
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LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,843
Unit: Earth

« Reply #113 on: April 02, 2018, 10:41:47 AM »

Maybe that's why the USAF approved CAPs conversion. For me it's another $300.00 CAP FUBAR, and when the change is made I am going to just wear the golf shirt and the flight suit while in support of Greenflag Ops.  I suspect the ABU phase-out will take at least 5 years.

Let us see:

BDUs approved in 1981; CAP approved 1991 = 10 years post approval + 4 (?) year phase in
ABUs approved in 2007; CAP approved 2016 = 9 years post approval + 5 year phase in
OCPs approved in 2018/2019/2020/... (?); Care to guess when CAP approved?

*Note not going before the BDUs because there were some "variations" on approvals.  For example, female cadets were not allowed fatigues prior to 1974, while male cadets wore them since 1960.

I think you have time to wear those ABUs before CAP gets approval for the OCPs.
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Toad1168
Forum Regular

Posts: 158
Unit: Missouri

« Reply #114 on: April 02, 2018, 04:05:19 PM »

Maybe that's why the USAF approved CAPs conversion. For me it's another $300.00 CAP FUBAR, and when the change is made I am going to just wear the golf shirt and the flight suit while in support of Greenflag Ops.  I suspect the ABU phase-out will take at least 5 years.

Let us see:

BDUs approved in 1981; CAP approved 1991 = 10 years post approval + 4 (?) year phase in
ABUs approved in 2007; CAP approved 2016 = 9 years post approval + 5 year phase in
OCPs approved in 2018/2019/2020/... (?); Care to guess when CAP approved?

*Note not going before the BDUs because there were some "variations" on approvals.  For example, female cadets were not allowed fatigues prior to 1974, while male cadets wore them since 1960.

I think you have time to wear those ABUs before CAP gets approval for the OCPs.

I would even venture to say you would have time to "wear out" the ABUs before CAP gets approval for the OCPs. 
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Toad
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #115 on: April 02, 2018, 04:55:48 PM »

Maybe that's why the USAF approved CAPs conversion. For me it's another $300.00 CAP FUBAR, and when the change is made I am going to just wear the golf shirt and the flight suit while in support of Greenflag Ops.  I suspect the ABU phase-out will take at least 5 years.

Let us see:

BDUs approved in 1981; CAP approved 1991 = 10 years post approval + 4 (?) year phase in
ABUs approved in 2007; CAP approved 2016 = 9 years post approval + 5 year phase in
OCPs approved in 2018/2019/2020/... (?); Care to guess when CAP approved?

BDUs weren't approved for stateside wear until 1987.  Before then BDUs were only worn at overseas bases and some special operations units in the US.

*Note not going before the BDUs because there were some "variations" on approvals.  For example, female cadets were not allowed fatigues prior to 1974, while male cadets wore them since 1960.

I think you have time to wear those ABUs before CAP gets approval for the OCPs.
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LATORRECA
Seasoned Member

Posts: 240

« Reply #116 on: April 04, 2018, 12:30:19 PM »


      I donít know whatís worse the ugly ABUs or the CAP-talk when weight in comments are made.
      If the Air Force change to OCP, will be great for CAP. This is because all the surplus of ABU uniformís items then will make its way to the CAP later on. We donít need to be in green, woodland camouflage . However I will like it better if we can use sage color boots.
    My 2 cents.


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Geber
Member

Posts: 68

« Reply #117 on: April 04, 2018, 03:17:54 PM »

The good part about surplus is it's often cheap or free. The bad part is the free stuff may not make it's way to a particular unit in the sizes required. Buying used or surplus means trying your luck on eBay. Some may have a well-stocked surplus store not too far away, where one can try things on. Others, like me, have a 100 mile round trip just to get to a Starbucks, never mind a good surplus store.

If/when CAP does a transition, I hope they won't make assumptions about what order OCP items are acquired. The ABU transition assumed members would want to replace the jackets and trousers first, then the Gortex or other cold weather clothing. It would be nice if they would be considerate of those up north, and allow OCP cold weather clothing to be worn over ABU, or vice versa, during a transition period.
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 356

« Reply #118 on: April 04, 2018, 03:42:24 PM »


  If the Air Force change to OCP, will be great for CAP. This is because all the surplus of ABU uniformís items then will make its way to the CAP later on.

Initially, but that will dry up pretty quickly since you only had one branch wearing them for a decade or so.  At least with BDUs, you had 4 branches and numerous other groups wearing them for decades, so there was more of a supply out there and a market that would support producing new ones.

Once ABUs are done, production will at least dwindle over the phase-out period, then cease totally, because nobody else is wearing them.  The surplus stores and ebay stocks will be smaller than BDUs ever were and will disappear quicker.  The only option will be the hot garbage Vanguard sells, and I expect the price to rise accordingly.

I'd say that it shouldn't be an immediate switch, but CAP needs to start seriously looking at it between the announcement and end of the AF's transition period.
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LATORRECA
Seasoned Member

Posts: 240

« Reply #119 on: April 04, 2018, 04:07:25 PM »


  If the Air Force change to OCP, will be great for CAP. This is because all the surplus of ABU uniformís items then will make its way to the CAP later on.

Initially, but that will dry up pretty quickly since you only had one branch wearing them for a decade or so.  At least with BDUs, you had 4 branches and numerous other groups wearing them for decades, so there was more of a supply out there and a market that would support producing new ones.

Once ABUs are done, production will at least dwindle over the phase-out period, then cease totally, because nobody else is wearing them.  The surplus stores and ebay stocks will be smaller than BDUs ever were and will disappear quicker.  The only option will be the hot garbage Vanguard sells, and I expect the price to rise accordingly.

I'd say that it shouldn't be an immediate switch, but CAP needs to start seriously looking at it between the announcement and end of the AF's transition period.
   All I'm saying is to let's roll with the punches. I been in this org since 1993 with some broken time in between, another uniform change would not make us or break us. If fat Joe wants to wear the uniform then let them. Or quietly approach them and tell them they are not allow to wear it because of regulations. I don't get bend out of shape because one member. I get mad when senior member try to correct others when they are wrong.
  If the AF is changing uniform so bit. I been in the Marine Corps for the past 20 Years and in true reality the uniform don't make the service is the people in it.  The army has change uniform several times and that doesn't translate to their performance neither the other service.
  Us members of the CAP, we should be worry about whatever we currently have and try to make it better. We should be looking at our internal problems like membership, bad training, mission, and procedure standardization.
   If CAPHq truly care about this problem, then they should publish a white letters telling all the obese members that are wearing the blue uniform to stop and or be expel if they keep using it. The only guy can truly know if you deserve to wear the Blues is themselves. They know if they meet the standard or not.

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: USAF appears to be quietly transitioning to OCP stateside...
 


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