Pathfinder Technical School

[isuhawkeye]

In my community the term "Medic" does not imply Paramedic organization. 

[lordmonar]

In my community the term "Medic" does not imply Paramedic organization.

As a military person....If you said "I'm the medic" I would assume that you are some sort of EMT level guy and that your JOB is to provide medical assistance in the field.

Ergo....if that is your job....but we can't advertise ourselves as a medical provider....do you see where the disconnect is.

Yes...it is kind of a stretch....but one that goes against the regulation.    And since I'm regs sort of guy.....I think that we can still do the training, still have our people go out into the field with the training.....we just don't advertise ourselves as a medical provider.

[LSThiker]

As a military person....If you said "I'm the medic" I would assume that you are some sort of EMT level guy and that your JOB is to provide medical assistance in the field.

Disagree.  I have been in units that used the term "medic" to refer to the 68W medic or the general CLS qualified person.

[Eclipse]

And CAP has rescued people.  I was GBD for a team of CAP cadets (and on senior member who was NOT the team leader) who effected the rescue of an injured hiker.

From what I understand, we bombed some subs, too.  It happens.

Yes?
Check the logical fallacies list. 

While we still search for plenty of things and sometime people,
we "rescue" them these days about as often as we bombed subs BITD
and the current level of expectation in the training reflects that.

[Eclipse]

As a military person....If you said "I'm the medic" I would assume that you are some sort of EMT level guy and that your JOB is to provide medical assistance in the field.

Disagree.  I have been in units that used the term "medic" to refer to the 68W medic or the general CLS qualified person.

CLS is well above the expectations of CAP Basic First Aid.

[lordmonar]

And CAP has rescued people.  I was GBD for a team of CAP cadets (and on senior member who was NOT the team leader) who effected the rescue of an injured hiker.

From what I understand, we bombed some subs, too.  It happens.

Yes?
Check the logical fallacies list. 

While we still search for plenty of things and sometime people,
we "rescue" them these days about as often as we bombed subs BITD
and the current level of expectation in the training reflects that.

And this prevents us from raising those expectations in what way?

If you don't train for it....you can't do it.

Back in the day.....we spotted how many subs?    But it was what we did.....because we trained for it.

So we do in fact do SAR.....we just thankfully don't have to do it very often.

[jeders]

As a military person....If you said "I'm the medic" I would assume that you are some sort of EMT level guy and that your JOB is to provide medical assistance in the field.

Disagree.  I have been in units that used the term "medic" to refer to the 68W medic or the general CLS qualified person.

It doesn't matter what you think or lord thinks or I think the name means. The general public and our customers are likely going to see people in uniforms and here the term medic and think about someone with EMT/paramedic type training. THAT is where the problem comes in and that is why the term medic should not be used anywhere in CAP as far as ratings.

Give the training, please. Just find a different name for the rating (or don't give an actual rating). Like Eclipse said, words matter.

[LSThiker]

CLS is well above the expectations of CAP Basic First Aid.

Re-read my post.  Did I say anything about CAP?

[lordmonar]

As a military person....If you said "I'm the medic" I would assume that you are some sort of EMT level guy and that your JOB is to provide medical assistance in the field.

Disagree.  I have been in units that used the term "medic" to refer to the 68W medic or the general CLS qualified person.

Note I said "I"....but still a 68W is in fact a medic....his job is to provide medical care in the field.   CLS qualified person would be some other MOS person who's "additional duty" is to provide medical care in the field.

Which is my point.....a "medic" is generally thought of as someone who's job is to provide medical care in the field.....which is something that 60-3 says we should not be advertising ourselves as.

To Eclipse.......what expectations are those?   

[LSThiker]

Note I said "I"....but still a 68W is in fact a medic....his job is to provide medical care in the field.   CLS qualified person would be some other MOS person who's "additional duty" is to provide medical care in the field.

Which is my point.....a "medic" is generally thought of as someone who's job is to provide medical care in the field.....which is something that 60-3 says we should not be advertising ourselves as.

I know the job duties.  You stated if a person said "I'm the medic" I would assume that you are some sort of EMT level guy".  However, depending on the unit, medic does not refer to EMT level guy in the military.  It can be a nebulous term to refer to a person that is a 68W, CLS qualified, or simply the person tasked to hold the wound while others are providing security.  My point is, even in the military, "medic" can be undefined qualification.  Just like a person saying "doc".  Does that mean the person is really an MD/DO or simply the medic/corpsman?

[Eclipse]

To Eclipse.......what expectations are those?

Well more then anything CAP trains for, and as jeders says, in the minds of the public,
and let's not kid ourselves, the reason the term is used in used, is the connotation
of military field medic or civilian paramedic level of training and ability.

This isn't difficult. We can spend all day discussing what should be, can be, could be or was.
I prefer to spend my CAP time dealing with what is, and being realistic about the letter and
spirit of the regs.

Drs and HSOs ion CAP do not provide medical treatment or do anything the average member can't do.
neither do members with first aid, etc.  The totality of the situation is clear, especially taken
together, if people choose to ignore that, they do so at the risk of their own reputation and
good will of those in their AOR, at a minimum.

What should be is addressed through channels, not via islands of training in a given unit or wing.

[lordmonar]

Note I said "I"....but still a 68W is in fact a medic....his job is to provide medical care in the field.   CLS qualified person would be some other MOS person who's "additional duty" is to provide medical care in the field.

Which is my point.....a "medic" is generally thought of as someone who's job is to provide medical care in the field.....which is something that 60-3 says we should not be advertising ourselves as.

I know the job duties.  You stated if a person said "I'm the medic" I would assume that you are some sort of EMT level guy".  However, depending on the unit, medic does not refer to EMT level guy in the military.  It can be a nebulous term to refer to a person that is a 68W, CLS qualified, or simply the person tasked to hold the wound while others are providing security.  My point is, even in the military, "medic" can be undefined qualification.  Just like a person saying "doc".  Does that mean the person is really an MD/DO or simply the medic/corpsman?

Yes....that's my point.....when you get technical it a medic may mean several different thing.....he could be an EMT, and IDMT, or a number of different levels of qualifications.

But to the lay person......I was using me in my example in the military context......Medic means someone who provides medical care in the field.

And providing emergency medical care or paramedic services is something we don't do nor should we be advertising ourselves as doing.

[Eclipse]

CLS is well above the expectations of CAP Basic First Aid.

Re-read my post.  Did I say anything about CAP?

No - but you clearly are trying to infer that the military's confusion on the topic is relevent to this discussion which
is about CAP.  Otherwise why raise it?

[Eclipse]

Heh - it is kind of funny to see Lord and I basically agreeing and disagreeing on the same points in the same thread.

[lordmonar]

What should be is addressed through channels, not via islands of training in a given unit or wing.

Eclipse.....a give unit or wing.....are channels. 


And on this point I have always agreed with you.

We should not be certificating "medics".  It is not what CAP does....as clearly.....very clearly in this case 60-3.

It is all the rest of the things you have said about the Pathfinder Ratings that I disagree with.  :0 

[LSThiker]

No - but you clearly are trying to infer that the military's confusion on the topic is relevent to this discussion which
is about CAP.  Otherwise why raise it?

No I was not.  I did not raise it.  I was merely addressing Lordmonar's point of medic as a military person.

[LSThiker]

But to the lay person......I was using me in my example in the military context......Medic means someone who provides medical care in the field.

Yes, but not necessarily at the EMT level, which is my point. 

[lordmonar]

But to the lay person......I was using me in my example in the military context......Medic means someone who provides medical care in the field.

Yes, but not necessarily at the EMT level, which is my point.

Okay...granted I may be wrong about it....but MY impression of the term medic says "EMT" which again to me means a "professional" i.e. paid.....level of expertise.   

Sure....it could mean "he's the only guy who brought a first aid kit"....or it could mean "he's an Emergency Trama Surgeon"

[LSThiker]

Okay...granted I may be wrong about it....

Which helps prove the point that the term "medic" should not be used.  Here we have a difference between Army and Air Force in our perceptions on the term. 

[sarmed1]

As a military person....If you said "I'm the medic" I would assume that you are some sort of EMT level guy and that your JOB is to provide medical assistance in the field.

Disagree.  I have been in units that used the term "medic" to refer to the 68W medic or the general CLS qualified person.

CLS is well above the expectations of CAP Basic First Aid.

Actually CLS is the perfect comparaison to what "medic" programs in the CAP context should be about.  In the Army sense of things there is nothing magical about the CLS program.  They are non medical soldiers that perform a secondary mission as needed.  Basically bridging between self aid and buddy care and the interventions of a regular medic.  The only skills they have beyond every other soldier is oral airways and iv starts and fluids (and from what I am told that portion is going away) the rest of their skills and training center around improving on and refining the basic TCCC skills every soldier gets... oh and bonus they get to carry an extra 10 pounds of medical supplies.....

The key is soldier first and foremost doing their primary job, first aid second, and only if their primary duty is not needed.  I can't speak about anyone elses program but until you meet the requirements to be a CAP HSO, that's exactly what HMRS medical program is about.  They use emergency medical responder as the base certification, but the scope and expectation is the role of the CLS.

As a paramedic and long time military medic I too have some heartache over using the term medic.....in addition to the CAP "bad" context....


MK