Pathfinder Technical School

[LSThiker]

The only skills they have beyond every other soldier is oral airways and iv starts and fluids (and from what I am told that portion is going away) the rest of their skills and training center around improving on and refining the basic TCCC skills every soldier gets

The IV was eliminated in 2008/2009 timeframe.  Too many Soldiers giving it too much attention to IVs.  However, the first time I got a nasopharyngeal airway was exhilarating.  In addition, you forgot the tension pneumothorax treatment.  However, yes, the CLS course is really not much more than a glorified first aid course geared towards the equipment the Army uses.  Of course, that is not too say it is not important or useless.  It is a good course for every Soldier to go through.

[Garibaldi]

I could direct my EOD  friend who served a couple tours in Iraq as a medic to this thread. She might have a few stories that would turn your hair gray.

[sarmed1]

I knew IV was going i just couldn't remember when it was supposed to happen.  I didn't mention chest decompression because its one of the TCCC skills we were teaching everyone.... but I can't remember if that was a SOCOM specific component or everyone....

MK

[RiverAux]

I tend to agree with one of the earlier posts that the "pathfinder" requirements include some worthwhile material that probably do fall within the realm of knowledge that it is probably good for our ground teams to have. 

I also agree that the "Pathfinder" name has the potential to cause problems, but like with the Ranger school in the grand scheme of things these problems are fairly minor.  Probably best avoided, but I'm not going to have heartburn over it.

Oh, I didn't see anything in there that would really make the overall course something that is needed because of special conditions in Missouri.  Even the storm spotter training can be applied everywhere -- its not like tornadoes only happen in the midwest. 

Am I worried that this introduces non-standard stuff?  Not really,  IIRC, our current ES curriculum started out as something that Maryland Wing designed and then NHQ adopted (maybe MD Wing was a test case of a NHQ program?).  So, perhaps this could help build some momentum towards raising our GT standards a bit. 

[lordmonar]

Why worry about introducing nonstandard stuff?

So long as the standard GRM stuff is still there and they are not adding to the ＧＴＭ SQTR

What's wrong with adding?

[Eclipse]

^ Adding "extra" wastes everyone's time and set incorrect expectations.

Most members don't want to spend time, effort, and money training in skills they have no use for.

CAP is not proficient on its core competencies, it should focus there and not waste its time doing things
it will never get called for.

[lordmonar]

^ Adding "extra" wastes everyone's time and set incorrect expectations.

Most members don't want to spend time, effort, and money training in skills they have no use for.

CAP is not proficient on its core competencies, it should focus there and not waste its time doing things
it will never get called for.

If you don't train for it.....you definitely will never get called for it.

Please stop saying things like "CAP is not proficient at its core competencies".    It is simply not true.  I say again it is simply not true! 

As for wasting everyone's time......it is our time to waste.....AFAIK no one in MOWG is making all their GTMs get their pathfinder ratings....Has anyone seen that?   Can anyone from MOWG confirm or deny if this required to participate in ES in MOWG?

If we want to talk about wastes of time that will never get used......let's kill all the NCSAs.   

Also a question about "setting incorrect expectations"......what exactly do you mean by that?   What expectations?  Expectations for who?  The trainees?  The customers?

[Eclipse]

Please stop saying things like "CAP is not proficient at its core competencies".    It is simply not true.  I say again it is simply not true!

Cite, seriously.

We are so far from "proficient", it's not funny.  Firefighters train every day, most CAP members make a best effort pass
one time across the SQTR, check the boxes, and then never get called, those that get called use such a small subset
of their equipment and training it's again not funny, and then once every few years they wander around the SQTR again.

CAP's successes are anecdotal and not in any way connected to a strategic plan or managing the problem. Never.
Every major operation is run on a shoestrig, as if it was the first time anyone there ever went to a mission,
with whoever is off that day or knows the IC, qual'ed or not, and then the people who go are run into the ground reinventing
the wheel until they leave or the mission is over.

We spend hundreds of hours and thousands or federal dollars training, and then when it hits the fan,
many times the most experienced people are sidelined because NHQ doesn't want to spend gas money to get them
to the AO, so you wind you with "whomever is there" running things.  When they are successful, it's through
brute force and happy circumstance, and when they fail, no one seems capable of figuring out "why", or even
making a note for next time.

Well intentioned? Yes.  Trying their best, sorta.  Proficient?  Not even close.

If we want to talk about wastes of time that will never get used......let's kill all the NCSAs. 

The majority of the NCSAs are orientation-level introductions to a career field or otherwise not
involved in purporting to be ES training.   Just NESA and HMRS do that, and both have "issues".

Also a question about "setting incorrect expectations"......what exactly do you mean by that?   What expectations?  Expectations for who?  The trainees?  The customers?

The member - they spend their time and money training to do something, they expect to do it, and when they
don't get to use those new skills, they get frustrated and often quit.  It happens today with the core ES and aviation quals,
let alone anything outside the SQTRS.

[lordmonar]

Please stop saying things like "CAP is not proficient at its core competencies".    It is simply not true.  I say again it is simply not true!

Cite, seriously.

We are so far from "proficient", it's not funny.  Firefighters train every day, most CAP members make a best effort pass
one time across the SQTR, check the boxes, and then never get called, those that get called use such a small subset
of their equipment and training it's again not funny, and then once every few years they wander around the SQTR again.

CAP's successes are anecdotal and not in any way connected to a strategic plan or managing the problem. Never.
Every major operation is run on a shoestrig, as if it was the first time anyone there ever went to a mission,
with whoever is off that day or knows the IC, qual'ed or not, and then the people who go are run into the ground reinventing
the wheel until they leave or the mission is over.

We spend hundreds of hours and thousands or federal dollars training, and then when it hits the fan,
many times the most experienced people are sidelined because NHQ doesn't want to spend gas money to get them
to the AO, so you wind you with "whomever is there" running things.  When they are successful, it's through
brute force and happy circumstance, and when they fail, no one seems capable of figuring out "why", or even
making a note for next time.

Well intentioned? Yes.  Trying their best, sorta.  Proficient?  Not even close.

If we want to talk about wastes of time that will never get used......let's kill all the NCSAs. 

The majority of the NCSAs are orientation-level introductions to a career field or otherwise not
involved in purporting to be ES training.   Just NESA and HMRS do that, and both have "issues".

Also a question about "setting incorrect expectations"......what exactly do you mean by that?   What expectations?  Expectations for who?  The trainees?  The customers?

The member - they spend their time and money training to do something, they expect to do it, and when they
don't get to use those new skills, they get frustrated and often quit.  It happens today with the core ES and aviation quals,
let alone anything outside the SQTRS.

I'm just going to leave this here.   

[sardak]

Am I worried that this introduces non-standard stuff?  Not really,  IIRC, our current ES curriculum started out as something that Maryland Wing designed and then NHQ adopted (maybe MD Wing was a test case of a NHQ program?).  So, perhaps this could help build some momentum towards raising our GT standards a bit.

Pretty good memory. Here is an excerpt from a written account of the first face-to-face meeting of the ES Curriculum working group in 1998:

The ES Curriculum working group met at National HQ over the Memorial Day weekend. There were 13 members, representing all regions, in addition to John Desmarais and Pete Kalisky, both of HQ DOS. Col. Parkhurst [CAP-USAF/CC] welcomed us at a BBQ Friday evening.

As a starting point, we used the Maryland Wing Ground Team Leader and Member manuals. This was done out of convenience as much as any other reason. The MD wing reps had extra copies and no one else had anything prepared. Needless to say though, by the end of the weekend the MD personnel were not exactly happy, as the contents of their manuals got thrashed.

Mike

[Matt Kenyon]

Hi everybody... Read the first few posts here, only because it is a subject I am interested in.
TL:DR= "Oh, No, another activity, geared not solely to our anticuated ways and missions... Kill it! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!"

Yeah, Pathfinders will be something new, which I understand most of the old farts pilots brass on the ops side of this house can not, for the love, tolerate. My advice...

Get over yourselves. If you cannot/will not be a positive contributor to a new idea, shut your worthless trap. You, along with the lawyers, pilots, and insurance salesman, are what is wrong with this program.

"Oh, no, they might train differently than me." As far as the other folks, and I, involved in this course are concerned, there is ONE standard to train for existing GT Quals. That is the G&UDFT task guide book. Outdated, yes. trains for a mission that is slowly dying, Yes! Doesn't train for our newer/DR mission profiles,  YES, YES, DOG, YES!!! But, as many of you have said, it is REGULATION.

Well, riddle me this, buttman: What is the training profile for Ground Damage Assesment Photography? How about Health & Wellness Checks? Or, for us hayseeds in "mizourah" (gee, that's original), what about Logistic Staging Area Management?

If you answered, "derp, I dunno." you may be a winna!(typed in my best Ed McMahon voice.)

Break, Pause for effect.

The point of this Sacred-Cow-Stomping is if you aren't going to offer anything constructive, and you insist on being a naysayer/we-never-did-it-that-way spokesman/mission pilot, go troll on another thread; as you can see by yours truly, we got all the bat poop crazy we need.

Now, anyone wanna discuss some of the good that we plan to bring about by this trainiing evolution?

[Eclipse]

Nice 'tude.

Well, riddle me this, buttman: What is the training profile for Ground Damage Assesment Photography? How about Health & Wellness Checks? Or, for us hayseeds in "mizourah" (gee, that's original), what about Logistic Staging Area Management?

There is none, which means that it is arguable as to whether we should be involved in those activities until there
is doctrine and training.

That's how organized, structured resources and groups enhance and grow their missions and purpose,
not run out the door with their shoes untied hoping to figure it out by the time you get there.  The fact that
this is how CAP essentially operates is the problem.

[Matt Kenyon]

^ Adding "extra" wastes everyone's time and set incorrect expectations.

Most members don't want to spend time, effort, and money training in skills they have no use for.

CAP is not proficient on its core competencies, it should focus there and not waste its time doing things
it will never get called for.

Did you read the site? Can you read? The GTM garbage is a PREREQUISITE for our little slice of life. Any one walking in, expecting to learn about GTM/GTL/UDF nonsense, have nobody to blame, but yourselves. SAR/DFing are going Bye bye. 406mhz has shrunk our SAR/UDF mission here, and DR has risin in frequency. We were prepping to roll out the Ground DA Photography last year, when Moore, Ok was flattend, and OK TX and KS wings got to beat us to it.(P.s. don't get me started on the you're to far for us to pay for your fuel bs).

CAP isn't proficient, because the GT/UDFT Taskbook is out dated like marrige. I will assume you are a GTL, there, Eclipse, and when was the last time you set up a Helo LZ, so an injured survivor could be picked up, and wisked away by the meat wagon, ON A AF ASSIGNED MISSION? How about actually setting up a shelter, from your 24 hr kit, and staying overnight, in the field, on an actual mission?

Nice 'tude.

Well, riddle me this, buttman: What is the training profile for Ground Damage Assesment Photography? How about Health & Wellness Checks? Or, for us hayseeds in "mizourah" (gee, that's original), what about Logistic Staging Area Management?

There is none, which means that it is arguable as to whether we should be involved in those activities until there
is doctrine and training.

That's how organized, structured resources and groups enhance and grow their missions and purpose,
not run out the door with their shoes untied hoping to figure it out by the time you get there.  The fact that
this is how CAP essentially operates is the problem.

My attitude is poor, because of yours.

"we don't do that, so lets not learn how to do that."

If you are content to let someone else develop standard, fine, stay at home. I have been working with others in our program to develop  those ideas...
Show up in June, you might learn something.

and as for my attitude, mind your own business, and stay out of our way.

Edit: Health and wellness checks were conducted by MSWG boots on the ground in '05 following Katrina... so there.

[Eclipse]

Edit: Health and wellness checks were conducted by MSWG boots on the ground in '05 following Katrina... so there.

Really?  I wasn't aware of that...

[Matt Kenyon]

Edit: Health and wellness checks were conducted by MSWG boots on the ground in '05 following Katrina... so there.

Really?  I wasn't aware of that...

:clap:

And whose fault is that, Sir?

http://capblog.typepad.com/capblog/files/Katrina.AAR.pdf

Ignorance is as powerful as you allow it.

P.S. try to get past trolling their Squadron patch. Tempting, I know.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Someone pass the popcorn. Were about to rehash "THE BIG ONE"!

[a2capt]

Wow, if Capt. Kenyon is on staff .. and this attitude is the way things are going to be, this is really going to be a heck of a weekend.

No thanks, I'll pass. Talk about a mouthful.

You should update your profile, too. It's not MO-140 anymore.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Wow, if Capt. Kenyon is on staff .. and this attitude is the way things are going to be, this is really going to be a heck of a weekend.

No thanks, I'll pass. Talk about a mouthful.

You should update your profile, too. It's not MO-140 anymore.

Nah, sounds to me that unless you're "not getting in their way/stfu", or are not a pilot, things should go swell!

[Matt Kenyon]

Wow, if Capt. Kenyon is on staff .. and this attitude is the way things are going to be, this is really going to be a heck of a weekend.

No thanks, I'll pass. Talk about a mouthful.

You should update your profile, too. It's not MO-140 anymore.

Nah, sounds to me that unless you're "not getting in their way/stfu", or are not a pilot, things should go swell!

Yeah, I got a big mouth, and tact is overrated. But really, WTF is with the "we've never done it that way" attitude in this program? So, our course is new and different. How does trollling it help ANYONE?

And, a2acapt, you're right, and how do you know it isn't 140 anymore? pm me your id, or give up your manhood!!!

[Matt Kenyon]

Someone pass the popcorn. Were about to rehash "THE BIG ONE"!

I had a meme for that, but I am such noob/old, i can't post it...

and yes, as long as you aren't a pilot, we will get along ok.