Uniform for Boards or Competitions

[kirbahashi]

Ok, this will come off as a rant just a touch, but I have a question to all.  Would you serve as a board member wearing the polo and slacks combo (authorized by Wing Instruction, as were the service uniform or aviator shirt with grey slacks) when the people going before the board were required to wear a version of the USAF style uniform (short sleeve shirt, tie, ribbons)?

This will mark the third time in two months I have attended some sort of Wing function, (NCSA/COY Board, Wing Color Guard Competition, & Wing sponsored Great Start Cadre Training) where either coaches, board members, or the person in charge was sporting the polo combo.    I get the fact that it is an authorized uniform, but I get a little miffed that my cadets are told they will wear the service dress uniform, or a variation, when the person evaluating them or going before them won't.  Maybe it is 19 years of being in the military boiling over...  But I can't recall one time where I went before a board in service dress, and the board was in anything BUT service dress.  Additionally, it makes me think of my time as a cadet where we had the Seniors who wore the "Smurf Suit" because they didn't want to shave, or didn't want to look stupid in a USAF style uniform.  Which contributed to my animosity towards Seniors then...

Am I wrong on this one?  I get the fact Seniors sometimes have issues preventing them from wearing the USAF style uniform.  But before I would ever wear the polo in this situation, I would wear the aviator shirt with slacks.  And as a Senior I am a little torque on my peers who I think are taking a short cut.  We should be the positive example.  Not the guy with the ".50 cal" buttons.

Thoughts?

[RogueLeader]

I wouldn't. When I was in the army, all the NCO boards where board members wore ACU's and soldiers wore service dress.

[bosshawk]

When I was in CAP, I regularly was asked to serve on promotion boards for cadets.  They were always done during a senior meeting night and I wore polos and slacks 100 % of the time to those meetings.  I usually had three minutes to prepare for the board and I certainly couldn't go home(50 miles) and change.  Of course, in our Sq, seniors wore nothing except polos unless we were wearing flight suits.  In eight years of being a member of that Sq, I don't believe that I ever saw a SM in anything other than polo or flight suit: possible exception, we had a Chaplain for awhile and he always wore AF style.

I have to go the RM route: we are not the military and military experience has little to do with how we interact in CAP.  Oh, boy, flames are on the way.

[kirbahashi]

No,

No flames from this guy.  I was really looking for what was going on outside my little slice of heaven.  If it isn't just here, and it is only in my mind, then there really is no issue.  I find this usually happens when I think military in CAP.  Usually they don't mix so well.

That, and I hate the polo & slacks combo...   

[MSG Mac]

Better to be in the alternate uniform than be overweight and in the AF style.

[Extremepredjudice]

Review boards or promotion boards for cadets are different animals, compared to wing hosted functions. You can't compare them.

FLWG's competition only a couple team escorts wore anything other than blues/aviators. And I think they wore BBDUs..

[Sapper168]

I lean the other way.  Since becoming involved with the Cadet Programs i have always had a 'lead by example' belief.  I try to wear the same uniform (albeit corporate version, currently fixing that ) as the cadets for the given activity.

As far as the Polo shirt goes, i personally can in no way equate it to Service Dress or Blues(A or B) in my head.  By design it seems to simply be an informal uniform desgned for comfort.  As such i personally only think it should be worn during travel to/from an activity, in an informal classroom setting, perhaps extended flying in very hot weather, and By CISM teams where a less formal military look can aid in their duties. 

As far as wearing it if i know im going to be sitting on a board...... negative!  For a cadet, a board be it promotion or otherwise is a serious occasion.  As such, we as seniors sitting on the board should treat it with just as much seriousness as the cadet. We as mentors and leaders of cadets should be portraying a higher standard for the Cadets.

Before someone says, 'But im not involved with the cadets' i will say unless you are in a Senior Squadron you very much are involved with the Cadets.  You may not be in the Cadet Program but if you are involved with the cadets.

[MIKE]

The former cadet in me says it is hypocritical to pass yourself off as a subject matter expert to cadets when you can't wear the same uniform... though the former senior in me knows that for the most part this is an unreasonable expectation.

You are a cadet, you show up to try outs for your Wing Drill Team, uniform as per CAPM 52-4.  Would you rather that your senior evaluators are:

A. Low thirties (with matching waist size), proper military grooming, wearing short sleeved service uniform.  Maybe wearing ribbons.  If so, has cadet milestone award and possibly NCC ribbon.  If really highspeed, likely not wearing ribbons or a tie though. 

B. 55+ unmistakably over weight standards for USAF style uniform (and probably that belt too), facial hair, wearing polo or aviator shirt with CAP badges and ribbons.

[Spaceman3750]

You are there to impress the evaluators, not the other way around. Just because I wear a suit to a job interview doesn't mean I expect the interviewer to do the same (that might just be my field though). That's not hypocrisy, that's just the way things are, IMHO.

[spacecommand]

Another item is though the white aviator shirt, grey pants combination is the basic minimal uniform , there are seniors I know seem to just own the polo shirt version thinking that is the basic minimal uniform.  While not boards related, but if it is a formal night like awards and promotions...

[Sapper168]

Another item is though the white aviator shirt, grey pants combination is the basic minimal uniform , there are seniors I know seem to just own the polo shirt version thinking that is the basic minimal uniform.  While not boards related, but if it is a formal night like awards and promotions...

CAPM 39-1 is a 'soft' regulatory document though isnt it? 

[RiverAux]

I would see it as a sign of disrespect and laziness if the seniors were not in a uniform as similarly formal as they expect the cadets to wear, whether during a regular meeting night or otherwise. 

[a2capt]

CAPM 39-1 is a 'soft' regulatory document though isnt it? 

I don't think soft and mandatory mean the same thing. OTOH, enforcement, compliance and respect for, the manual, are a bit 'soft'.

[Sapper168]

I think a lot of issues come from the schitzophrenia this organization has devolved into.  The uniforms are just a symptom. I think the biggest problem we have is that it comes down to corporation vs auxillary.  This organization would be better served i believe if It identified with, focused on and portrayed one or the other.  Then the mission of the organisation could really be focused on.

[stillamarine]

Another item is though the white aviator shirt, grey pants combination is the basic minimal uniform , there are seniors I know seem to just own the polo shirt version thinking that is the basic minimal uniform.  While not boards related, but if it is a formal night like awards and promotions...

Would be curious to see documentation on that. I've never heard of a basic minimal uniform for seniors, as long as it was an approved CAP uniform. I know many seniors that only own the polo/grey pants combo.

[Sapper168]

Another item is though the white aviator shirt, grey pants combination is the basic minimal uniform , there are seniors I know seem to just own the polo shirt version thinking that is the basic minimal uniform.  While not boards related, but if it is a formal night like awards and promotions...

Would be curious to see documentation on that. I've never heard of a basic minimal uniform for seniors, as long as it was an approved CAP uniform. I know many seniors that only own the polo/grey pants combo.

CAPM 39-1 page 8 section 1-5 item B:

b. CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform (senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt;
gray trousers; black belt; black shoes and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.
Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks or skirt; plain black shoes. Insignia: CAP
nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.

[Eclipse]

And as it has been noted here umpteen times, the minimum basic uniform is required.  All seniors must own either blues or whites, yet a lot of commanders are unaware of this mandate, let alone new members.

[spacecommand]

CAPM39-1 page 8

1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members
will equip themselves with the basic uniform.

[Pylon]

Bottom line is there is an appropriate uniform in our closet (AF-style or corporate equivalent) for pretty much every situation.  True, in many situations, we grant a lot of flexibility to the member because the situation doesn't always necessitate one particular uniform (weekly meetings for example) and because not every member owns the whole range of uniforms.


The polo combo has its place, as do the field uniforms, flight suits, service dress, and mess dress.  But there are places where less flexibility should be expected.  In a more formal setting, we tend to require (or at least expect) more formal uniforms.  BDUs don't cut it for attending a professional development course, for example.  Flight suits aren't expected to be the routine uniform for members when they're not engaged in flying duties.  Similarly, we wouldn't rock the mess dress to a weekly meeting.


In a formal setting like a board of review, competition, or other special event where the attendees are required to wear a certain uniform (service dress in this example) I think it's rude, at best, for the staff of that event to expect that they shouldn't reflect the same standard.   Wouldn't it be equally rude for a member to show up to the formal Wing Conference banquet wearing the polo uniform, where mess dress is common and service dress the least formal you tend to see? 


While we have a whole closet of uniforms to choose from, it doesn't mean every one of them is going to be appropriate for every setting. 


And the leadership and staff anywhere should always be setting the example, not the exception to the rule.

[NCRblues]

Agree with pylon...

Plus a pretty simple fix to this problem. Whoever is in charge of the activity gets to set the uniform. If you want it to be all service dress (or corporate equivalent to service dress) than ask to head up that certain activity next time and set the UOD. BOOM problem solved. No need to thank me, its what I do.