Uniform for Boards or Competitions

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think a lot of issues come from the schitzophrenia this organization has devolved into.  The uniforms are just a symptom. I think the biggest problem we have is that it comes down to corporation vs auxillary.  This organization would be better served i believe if It identified with, focused on and portrayed one or the other.  Then the mission of the organisation could really be focused on.

I agree 100%.

I also don't believe it's possible to root out that schizoid outlook.  It's become too deeply entrenched and the "corporate" personality has won.

[Sapper168]

Agree with pylon...

Plus a pretty simple fix to this problem. Whoever is in charge of the activity gets to set the uniform. If you want it to be all service dress (or corporate equivalent to service dress) than ask to head up that certain activity next time and set the UOD. BOOM problem solved. No need to thank me, its what I do.
 

According to capm 39-1, Table 4-8. CAP Distinctive Uniform Equivalents to USAF-Style Uniform     The knit shirt(polo shirt) is considered the equivalent of the AF-style light blue shirt (unless otherwise specified).  So that only solves the problem if you set the uniform to be Blues Shirt(class A and B) or equivalent and NO POLO.  I doubt anyone would actually do that.

[NCRblues]

Agree with pylon...

Plus a pretty simple fix to this problem. Whoever is in charge of the activity gets to set the uniform. If you want it to be all service dress (or corporate equivalent to service dress) than ask to head up that certain activity next time and set the UOD. BOOM problem solved. No need to thank me, its what I do.
 

According to capm 39-1, Table 4-8. CAP Distinctive Uniform Equivalents to USAF-Style Uniform     The knit shirt(polo shirt) is considered the equivalent of the AF-style light blue shirt (unless otherwise specified).  So that only solves the problem if you set the uniform to be Blues Shirt(class A and B) or equivalent and NO POLO.  I doubt anyone would actually do that.

I absolutely would. If you make it service dress (what some call class A) than the polo is a no go. Problem still solved. CAP has become so afraid to tell anyone no for any reason. I tell people to play the game or go home. No one is irreplaceable in CAP.

[Sapper168]

I think a lot of issues come from the schitzophrenia this organization has devolved into.  The uniforms are just a symptom. I think the biggest problem we have is that it comes down to corporation vs auxillary.  This organization would be better served i believe if It identified with, focused on and portrayed one or the other.  Then the mission of the organisation could really be focused on.

I agree 100%.

I also don't believe it's possible to root out that schizoid outlook.  It's become too deeply entrenched and the "corporate" personality has won.

I wouldn't care if CAP went all Corporate and totally disassociated from the airforce.  At that point they could persue the corporate ends and not have to worry about Ma Blue's approval.  Would i renew my mebership next time?  Probably not. There is no way  It could  continue in the three part mission and still be true to its roots.  If i just wanted to be part of a SAR organization I would join one of the local counties volunteer SAR squad.  And anyone who says that a straight 'corporate' CAP would still have a cadets program is fooling themselves.

[Sapper168]

Agree with pylon...

Plus a pretty simple fix to this problem. Whoever is in charge of the activity gets to set the uniform. If you want it to be all service dress (or corporate equivalent to service dress) than ask to head up that certain activity next time and set the UOD. BOOM problem solved. No need to thank me, its what I do.
 

According to capm 39-1, Table 4-8. CAP Distinctive Uniform Equivalents to USAF-Style Uniform     The knit shirt(polo shirt) is considered the equivalent of the AF-style light blue shirt (unless otherwise specified).  So that only solves the problem if you set the uniform to be Blues Shirt(class A and B) or equivalent and NO POLO.  I doubt anyone would actually do that.

I absolutely would. If you make it service dress (what some call class A) than the polo is a no go. Problem still solved. CAP has become so afraid to tell anyone no for any reason. I tell people to play the game or go home. No one is irreplaceable in CAP.

I would have no problem telling someone out of uniform to correct it or go home either, but i am not too concerned about whether i can or can't 'give orders' to other senior members.  The majority of what i have seen tends to lean towards 'we'll let it go hoping no one says anything.'

[NCRblues]

I would have no problem telling someone out of uniform to correct it or go home either, but i am not too concerned about whether i can or can't 'give orders' to other senior members.  The majority of what i have seen tends to lean towards 'we'll let it go hoping no one says anything.'

Well now that is the problem on your last sentence. Once you start letting things slip, it's so hard to stop, and that is where CAP is now.

Young SM's directing CLC/SLS/TLC even though they have never taken the class as a student. SM's allowed to blatantly violate the height/weight rule including members of the NB and NEC. SM's not caring about cadets truly understanding the items on the promotion tests and just rubber stamping promotions. SM's out of uniform and not checked or sent home. The list goes on and on.

But, start enforcing the rules and taking away those aircraft, vans and activities participation, and watch how fast people will fix themselves and start to help fix others around them. Will we lose some people? Yes, but we will attract the members we really want, and we will keep those members that are most productive. Nothing in CAP is so hard we MUST cut corners. Enforce the rules evenly across the board to all members = a happy CAP.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

While the CAP Distinctive Basic uniform is listed, you also have

CAPM 39-1 Table 4-8 CAP Distinctive Uniform Equivalents to USAF-Style Uniform

CAP Distinctive Uniform	USAF-Style Uniform Equivalent
Utility Uniform/Field Uniform	Battle Dress Uniform (BDU)
Blazer Uniform	Service Dress Uniform
Blazer Semiformal Uniform (without nameplate) Appropriate civilian attire is recommended for females.	Mess Dress (Senior Members), Semiformal (Cadets) or Civilian Formal Wear
Aviator Shirt with Epaulets	AF-style light blue shirt
Knit Shirts	AF-style light blue shirt (unless otherwise specified)
Blue Flight Suit	Green Flight Suit
Blue Flight Jacket	Green Flight Jacket

So unless you specify the White and Gray the polo is an acceptable substitution for the AF Blue Shirt

[Spaceman3750]

Agree with pylon...

Plus a pretty simple fix to this problem. Whoever is in charge of the activity gets to set the uniform. If you want it to be all service dress (or corporate equivalent to service dress) than ask to head up that certain activity next time and set the UOD. BOOM problem solved. No need to thank me, its what I do.
 

According to capm 39-1, Table 4-8. CAP Distinctive Uniform Equivalents to USAF-Style Uniform     The knit shirt(polo shirt) is considered the equivalent of the AF-style light blue shirt (unless otherwise specified).  So that only solves the problem if you set the uniform to be Blues Shirt(class A and B) or equivalent and NO POLO.  I doubt anyone would actually do that.

I absolutely would. If you make it service dress (what some call class A) than the polo is a no go. Problem still solved. CAP has become so afraid to tell anyone no for any reason. I tell people to play the game or go home. No one is irreplaceable in CAP.

I would have no problem telling someone out of uniform to correct it or go home either, but i am not too concerned about whether i can or can't 'give orders' to other senior members.  The majority of what i have seen tends to lean towards 'we'll let it go hoping no one says anything.'

That settles it - I'm wearing my BBDUs to the change of command, just to bug you .

[Eclipse]

That settles it - I'm wearing my BBDUs to the change of command, just to bug you .

A couple people beat you to it at the recent one in our wing...

(Not to mention the photos of people in >much< less than formal attire at the most recent wing conference banquet I attended).

[Sapper168]

... That settles it - I'm wearing my BBDUs to the change of command, just to bug you .

See what im talking about!!!   It wont bug me that much since im not taking command.     I still have no idea where its going to be either.

[ZigZag911]

Board members should be in same uniform (or equivalent) as those appearing before the board.

Doing otherwise sets a poor example: "Do as I say, not as I do."

[lordmonar]

Just to play devil's advocate....

A)  What about RHIP?

B)  YOU are there to evaluate the candidate not impress him/her with your abilities.  You certainly have to be professional in appearance.

On a side note....I hate the "Do as I say not as I do" argument for leadership.

There are are a thousand reasons why a subordinate is not allowed or should not do what the leader is allowed and sometimes forced to do.

Leader's don't buff the floor and paint the rocks because they have got better things to do...and they painted the rocks and buffed the floor when they were peons.  Leaders don't have a curfew because they have proved they don't need one or have stuff to do after the kiddies have gone to bed. 

AND YES....there is a double/tripple/quadriple standards....but that is the nature of all things.

[/rant]

[ZigZag911]

Before RHIP, RHIR...rank must have its responsibilities. And the main one is to lead by force of personal example.

I'm very much with Eclipse on this one...if you can't/won't put on an aviator shirt with insignia and a pair of gray slacks, at minimum, then in my opinion you don't belong on a CAP selection board.

The only exception I can see making is for those flying to the event to wear a flightsuit...polo shirts, BDUs, and other uniform combinations have their proper place...just not at a formal board.

And whoever mentioned it earlier is absolutely correct...it is the job of the officer in charge to set -- and enforce -- the uniform of the day.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I wouldn't care if CAP went all Corporate and totally disassociated from the airforce.  At that point they could persue the corporate ends and not have to worry about Ma Blue's approval.  Would i renew my mebership next time?  Probably not. There is no way  It could  continue in the three part mission and still be true to its roots.  If i just wanted to be part of a SAR organization I would join one of the local counties volunteer SAR squad.  And anyone who says that a straight 'corporate' CAP would still have a cadets program is fooling themselves.

Right on all points, except that the point must also be made that a non-AF CAP would really have to do fundraising and beg, borrow or steal whatever they (I don't say "we" because I wouldn't be part of such an organisation) could get.  There would be no more AF funding, nothing from the gov't in fact (unless the "new CAP" were moved to DHS or some equivalent), including the nice red, white and blue airplanes.  No more meeting space on military facilities (unless the commander was feeling very generous), and, as you said, no more CP/AE, just all ES, all the time.

WRT boards: To me if a CAP officer cannot be bothered to put on at least the minimum required uniform (blues or G/W) then I don't think they belong on a review board.  I would feel particularly uncomfortable if a cadet reported in all of his/her finery, clean, pressed uniform, ribbons and other blingage all in place and I was sitting there in BDU's, BBDU's or a flight suit (I don't own the polo shirt) unshaven (or ungroomed if with a beard).  I would wonder what kind of message I was sending this young person.

Having said that, I have noticed that a lot of military personnel I see now, in person or on TV, are wearing their camouflage for almost everything.  We meet on an ANG facility that also has some USMC, ARNG and USAR, plus I live not far from an ARNG armoury, and with the Army components in particular I couldn't tell you when the last time was that I saw a soldier (enlisted, NCO, commissioned or warrant) wearing anything but the ACU.  I have yet to see a soldier in person wearing the blue uniform that apparently some dim bulb thought our old CSU could be confused with.

[lordmonar]

Before RHIP, RHIR...rank must have its responsibilities. And the main one is to lead by force of personal example.

I'm very much with Eclipse on this one...if you can't/won't put on an aviator shirt with insignia and a pair of gray slacks, at minimum, then in my opinion you don't belong on a CAP selection board.

The only exception I can see making is for those flying to the event to wear a flightsuit...polo shirts, BDUs, and other uniform combinations have their proper place...just not at a formal board.

And whoever mentioned it earlier is absolutely correct...it is the job of the officer in charge to set -- and enforce -- the uniform of the day.

Well....I did not really want to go there.  This, again is simply a leadership issue.  If you want your board members to wear Class B uniforms.....then you specify Class B uniforms.  You don't give exceptions to fliers, people who are new, people who have never been told, people who just don't care.
It is that simple. 

Typical that Ecliplse would change the focus of the OP's original rant.  The Rant is about board members no wearing the same uniform as the candidates.  No where did anyone suggest that board members did not have the proscribed minimum uniform....only that they did not wear it.

So to stay on target.....the fault lies in who ever set up the board.  If you don't specify the UoD....then people will wear what ever they feel like.
If the UoD is Class B and a member does not have a set......then yes he should not be on the board.

[Eclipse]

^ Let's give credit where it's due, here.

I didn't start the spin on what is required, nor did I say who should or should not be on a board (though I do agree with ZiZag's comment retroactively).

[ol'fido]

With regard to the original post:

1) Formal boards such as NCSAs or "of the Year" awards should probably specify Service dress for board members with the blazer combo being the corporate alternative. When I was sitting on the wing NCSA boards that was how we did it. Cadet officers were usually but not always in service dress while cadet airmen and NCOs were usually but not always in Class Bs. The only times this wasn't so was when someone who was there in a support role who was asked to sit on a board at the last minute when someone wasn't able to show up.

2)Depending on the night of the month you conduct promotion and position boards at your squadron should dictate what uniform you are in. I am going to assume that most units have their boards on blues night. If that is the case, then the board members should be in blues or gray/whites. Again, the last minute replacement rule applies here.

3) Members should not plan to sit on a board in anything less than what they require for the cadet for the board. This just shows respect for the person coming before the board.

4)For some cadet officers(c/Capt-c/Col), however, I wouldn't be above putting a person in polo shirt combo in the center of the board with the announced chairman in uniform sitting on one end of the table or the other. This is just to see how aware they are and how they think on their feet.

My .02. YMMV.

[AngelWings]

I think people who do not want to show simple courtesy has to simply wear something more dressier than what they typically do are unprofessional by default and unremarkable by standard.
It is a simple everyday courtesy where ever we go to meet the minimum standard our society or organization puts on us. Think of it this way, we expect people in the public to wear atleast the minimum amount of clothes, instead of being partially naked (in sense of the reproductive organs) or fully naked. When people go to a wedding, we expect something along the lines of black tie for men and dresses for women (at most weddings). In public, we do not expect exceptions to be made for people when it comes towards being partially or fully naked, and at something like a typical formal wedding, we do not expect exceptions to the dress standard.
Why should we expect or allow exceptions in an professional organization with military standards? Is it for laziness and comfort? Laziness has no place in CAP and comfort can become a casualty when in CAP. I would not wear anything less than the standard imposed on the men and women applying, nor would I exceed it.
If the senior members on this board want to wear polos, then the cadets should have to wear the equivalent, and with most senior members looking unprofessional in the polo, the cadets should be allowed to get comfortable in dressy civies (like wearing a sweater or dress shirt with jeans and whatever footwear works). I doubt many of you like the sound of that lowering of the bar.
To sum up everything I just said, we all belong in the same equivalent uniform. It is IMO disrespectful to wear anything but the equivalent, and to require anyone else to do anything different. We have standards and a simple understanding of courtesies that should stop that from happening. We should do as we say, and say as we do. Lastly, it is not a matter of rank or position, it is a matter of the simple human decency and respect to be in the equivalent uniform. Those who try to pull some sort of rank thing with this typically are the same as those who try to make everyone do the hard work while they sit down comfortably.

[Sapper168]

.....To sum up everything I just said, we all belong in the same equivalent uniform. It is IMO disrespectful to wear anything but the equivalent, and to require anyone else to do anything different. .......

Thats the deal see according to CAPM 39-1 unless otherwise stated, the polo shirt combo (Knit shirt) is considered the equivelent of the White/ grey and Air force Blue shirt uniform.  I dont agree with it but there it is.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

So then it is up to the leadership for an activity / event to otherwise state.