Uniforms: Things never change...gotta love consistancy

[Hawk200]

I didn't care for the way the CSU kinda spung up, with no seeming history on it. It was just worn one day to a Congressional hearing, but no one had seen anything of it prior.

I didn't like it initially, but at least it was uniform. Everyone had the same pants, the same shirt, the same jacket, the same everything. Using Air Force insignia by calling it Air Force "styled" seemed unethical to me. If it had used all the gray accoutrements that the blues used, I would have been far less resistant to it.

I also think that a third uniform was unnecessary, and having different grooming standards for it was a slap in the face to those with longer hair and beards. I don't think it would have been unreasonable to require a beard be trimmed to a reasonable length or hair be bound (I honestly could care less if someone had a pony tail, just keep it neat). Having the CSU and the blues and the blazer was stupid, and created a fracture as far as the membership was concerned.

Three different types of uniforms in the same class (as in "service" type of uniform) created problems. It was unnecessary, foolish, and looked a little selfish on someone's part.

[EMT-83]

Personally i hate the Blue Bdus. If CAP made cadets wear these then i would lose all respect for senior members. And then i would quit. That is all

Careful there - cadet aged 18 or over and out of height/weight = BBDU.

[Eclipse]

So, when you see some folks from the USAF standing side by side, and one is wearing a flight suit, one ABUs, one in blues, and yet another in cook's whites, do you really say "Wow, an AF Guy and three other folks . . . "?

In most cases they won't be standing in such a hodge podge at a formal event - it will be a sea of blue.

[jimmydeanno]

Of course, we do have many military aspects to our program, and all of us are encouraged to be as healthy and fit as we can be.

Certainly I agree that we have "many military aspects."  However, none of them include having to run 1/2 mile in full battle rattle, chasing down the bad guy, etc.  The closest thing we have to a need for physical fitness are our ground team members (cadet program excluded).  However, along the lines of "everything to everyone" our core program and mission doesn't involve being a local chapter of "Curves."

So, without an operational need to have all of our members to be fit and trim, shaven, etc, there is not need to mandate that they all be or make our organization exclude those who are.  But, I think we agree here.

Well, since VG sells polos in XXXXL, which according to their size chart fits someone with a 22 inch neck, 60 inch chest, and a 54 inch waist, at some point it really is primarily the member's problem.

We cannot reasonably be expected to have uniforms that fit every human being on the planet regardless of disease or condition. 

Call it the "99.999% solution."

They have one shirt available in that size, and it's the screen-printed golf shirt.  You can't get an embroidered polo in that size, nor an aviator shirt, BBDUs, outergarments, etc.  So, for our larger members we have a golf shirt they can wear to encampment, while on a ground team, and the wing conference banquet.  Classy.

If uniforms are a tool to get the mission done, then does that mean that some of our members can't have the same tools as the rest of us?

I would rather be able to stand, side by side, with all the members that help me and our unit accomplish what we set out to do, without looking like we're in different organizations.

So, when you see some folks from the USAF standing side by side, and one is wearing a flight suit, one ABUs, one in blues, and yet another in cook's whites, do you really say "Wow, an AF Guy and three other folks . . . "?

Nope, but they also don't have (stateside) a blue flight suit and a green flight suit standing next to each other on the same flightline.  When they're at a banquet they don't have some wearing mess dress and some in a blazer.  I know people wonder if we are members of the same organization, because I've been asked - several times.

Red Cross members aren't wearing two "separate but equal" sets of uniforms, USCGAux isn't, Boy Scouts aren't, Girl Scouts aren't, VFW, Shriners, etc aren't.  What is operationally different about US that makes it so that we have to have two distinctive classes of uniforms?  Why do we have two sets of "tools" to get our mission done?

My point about being able to stand side by side was more about unity.  We don't have the luxury of being "the military" who is going to get their money regardless of what they wear.  They are "too big to fail" essentially, because no matter what they wear, they will be identified as "the military."  We are too unknown to be able to have such a diluted image.  Case in point, I was wearing my polo shirt, at a recruiting event, with other CAP members and was asked by one of them (fairly new) if I was also a member.

[lordmonar]

So, when you see some folks from the USAF standing side by side, and one is wearing a flight suit, one ABUs, one in blues, and yet another in cook's whites, do you really say "Wow, an AF Guy and three other folks . . . "?

Nope....but when you got a flying squadron on anyday but monday.....all the fliers are in OD green Flight suits and all the Support people are in ABUs.

You don't have all the fliers on the weight managment program wearing blue flight suits and all the guys on shaving waivers in a polo shirt.

No one is saying that we have different uniforms because we have different jobs......we have different uniforms because some of our members don't meet the image of the USAF.

So be it....it is their uniform....so let's explore the options.

[BradM]

Personally i hate the Blue Bdus. If CAP made cadets wear these then i would lose all respect for senior members. And then i would quit. That is all

They kinda of remind me of a SWAT uniform. Wear them with a black baseball cap and tactical sunglasses 

[Ned]

They have one shirt available in that size, and it's the screen-printed golf shirt.  You can't get an embroidered polo in that size, nor an aviator shirt, BBDUs, outergarments, etc.  So, for our larger members we have a golf shirt they can wear to encampment, while on a ground team, and the wing conference banquet.  Classy.

Non-concur.

Maybe I'm not reading right, but it looks to me like VG offers XXXXL BBDUs, XXXXL Blue Field Uniforms (the jumpsuit-looking thingie), and a blue flight nomex suit in a 52L.  The largest aviatior shirt is a size 20, which as near as I can tell is equivalent to a XXXXL.

And that's just VG.  Van Huesen makes their short sleeve aviator's shirt in a size 22.  (Available here at PilotShop.com for a nice $17.95 price.)

And of course all you really need is a simple white dress shirt for the blazer, and here's a nice one in size 22 at Dillards for $65.00.

So, I'm thinking that well over 99.99% of our members can look professional in the VG polo, BBDU, & BFU all in XXXXL.  They can also score a size 20 aviator shirt at VG as well.  Or go to a (cheaper) commercial source for an aviator shirt up to a size 22.

If uniforms are a tool to get the mission done, then does that mean that some of our members can't have the same tools as the rest of us?

That's a bit of hyperbole, isn't it?  After all, at this very moment there are dozens of members out there with casts on their legs or arms (or wear some other bulky medical appliance).  So, yes, due to medical conditions or just the extreme range of natural diversity, some tiny number of members will have limited or no uniform choices.

Like I said, we may have to be happy with the "99.9999 % solution."

As long as we wear something that is recognizeable to the general public as some sort of uniform, nothing else is very realistic.

Red Cross members aren't wearing two "separate but equal" sets of uniforms, USCGAux isn't, Boy Scouts aren't, Girl Scouts aren't, VFW, Shriners, etc aren't.  What is operationally different about US that makes it so that we have to have two distinctive classes of uniforms?  Why do we have two sets of "tools" to get our mission done?

I dunno.  But it is not our decision.  Absolutely no one who reads this forum can change that no matter how often we complain or whine about it.

Your beef isn't with us or anyone else here.  It sounds like you want to take it up with this guy:



Gen Norton Schwartz.

You can reach him here..


(Darn, img tag stopped working - imagine a big picture of Gen Schwartz, the USAF Chief of Staff.)

[BradM]

[HGjunkie]

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Why can't anyone be happy that we (CAP) are still valuable enough to the USAF that they allow us (CAP) to wear their uniform? Yes, I would like to see everyone in it just like CGAux does, however, that is not the case. You think our restrictions are harsh? Think about this for a second, the Army Cadet Corps (CAP equivalent for the Army) won't even allow an adult to become a member unless they go (as an unpaid volunteer) to a school that is most likely not even in your state or even region, and you must be able to pass height weight and tape and a PT test. Now, I am a huge supporter of the U.S.Army, and yes I would be proud to be a member of the ACC, however I am extremely proud of what CAP does and is, and I am a very proud member of only the CAP.

There is no other organization like us, there is no one else who can stack up to what the CAP does. We may not go to war, but we educate the public, we raise cadets to become strong healthy independent adult leaders, and we save more lives than any other organization outside of a war zone than I can think of.

If things stay the way they are with the uniforms, and I can't see them changing much, if you want to wear the USAF style uniforms, shave and get to work on the weight loss if you can. If you don't like the USAF style uniforms, then don't wear them. There is no simpler way to put it. And if shaving repeatedly gives you razor burn, then be glad you only HAVE to shave ONCE a week.

[jimmydeanno]

Your beef isn't with us or anyone else here.

You're right.  I have nothing against any of CAP's members in this regard.  Nor, do I have any beef with anyone here.

However, it does seem to me that the national level leadership, or even the BoG, could examine the role of uniforms in our organization and their importance as a marketing tool, as well as a tool to complete our mission.  If both sets of uniforms are "separate but equal" then it should be an easy decision to eliminate one set.

Other than showing a relationship to the Air Force with our Blues, what other purpose does wearing AF style uniforms serve?  There appears to be some sort of relationship issue, either way you slice it.

If we are "an official Auxiliary of the United States Air Force" then I don't understand how/why there is a need for a differentiation between our individual members based on how they look.  The Coast Guard appears to have no problem with subtle differences between their Auxiliarists and actual Coast Guard members.  They don't appear to have an issue with someone that is a bit portly with a beard standing next to one of their "legitimate CG members."   

If the Air Force is concerned about the image that we present while wearing "their uniform" then perhaps we should get all of our adult membership out of it and simply adopt the corporate style uniforms.  After all, they are equal to the Air Force style ones, so that means that we could still get the job done, right?  Then we wouldn't have to be worried about being confused for "Real Air Force" people, our members trolling for salutes, and we might just have a unified look for our members so that people just might think we're in the same organization as the guy we're standing next to.

I think that the AF style uniforms are an important tool for our cadets, in terms of marketability of our program.

[Ned]

However, it does seem to me that the national level leadership, or even the BoG, could examine ( . . .)  If both sets of uniforms are "separate but equal" then it should be an easy decision to eliminate one set.

Decisions are always easy when you are not the person who has to make them . . . . 

Other than showing a relationship to the Air Force with our Blues, what other purpose does wearing AF style uniforms serve? 

Great question.  What are your thoughts as to the answer? 

Do you honestly think the answer is "none" or, worse yet, some sort of bad faith on the part of our leadership who only seek to embarass our larger and differently-groomed members?

Really?

If we are "an official Auxiliary of the United States Air Force" then I don't understand how/why there is a need for a differentiation between our individual members based on how they look. 

I get that.  You don't understand the USAF's decision.  You have successfully communicated that.

But you don't need to.  I don't need to.  It's not my decision or your decision to make.

I'm sorry if you feel that Gen Schwartz has not adequately briefed you on the USAF take on this issue.  It's not my job to explain his decision to you.  It would be impudent for me to even try.

That's why I referred you to him.

Ultimately, despite all the talk about "marketing issues," "discrimination against some of our members," and a vague sense of disunity caused by having more than a single uniform for all occasions, there is a genuine lack of data suggesting that an actual "problem" exists with our uniform set.  Let alone that arbitrarily discarding all the  USAF-style uniforms would "fix" anything.

Lot's of strong opinons on both sides, of course.

But not much else.

[flyboy53]

I think the uniform issue represents a lot personal biases that end up with a "he who shall scream the loudest type of mentality." It's from those personal biases that we become a hodge podge of different uniforms, largely because someone doesn't want the CAP in military uniforms or wants them in a uniform akin to that individual's former military service....so you end up with flag patches on right shoulder sleves, double breasted CSUs or efforts by some people to push for red insignia or name plates.

Everyone wants their cake and eat it, too. They want to wear their bling so you get thrust back and forth between arguments like no one's going to tell me to shave my beard or lose the weight so I design my own thing. Yet the weight thing actually becomes a safety issue and the beard thing is a personal choice thrust on the greater good of the membership.

I don't know how much the uniform plays in marketing. I can guess, however, that it has a substantial role....when you consider things like volunteer fire companies who take pride in their different uniform colors, which gives them a unique identity. Our's is in the grey shoulder rank and other distinctive insignia that at times past (like the orginal emblem turned overseas squadron insignia) is worn because it's the insignia registered with the International Red Cross and the Geneva Convention.

People push for things like the blue polo shirts or the blue BDUS and flight suits, and I aways chuckle because those are uniforms that you see around AF bases, but in areas like MWR, special duty aircrews, transient maintenance or missile operations...hence it's actually other Air Force uniforms but with distinctive insignia.

We are at a crossroads as an organization. Search and rescue is not accomplished to the scale it once was, things like DDR may be on the way out because of different attempts to legalize it, and we are off testing the waters in a lot of new areas. I do know that all these uniform things always come to a head, because people don't want to acknowledge the Air Force's role in this organization. However, the Air Force is very much in the background trying to decide if we really are the force multiplier that everyone says we are.

So, all the squabbling about uniforms is really a pretty moot point. Our future as an organization doesn't lend us to be just another SAR or ES organization because there are a lot of state or county agencies and sheriff's departments who are competing for the same turf. Our future pretty much depends on the relationship we forge with the Air Force and that's why there's all the walking on egg shells everytime someone pops off at an enlisted person over a salute.

Sorry, I'm long winded.....

[majdomke]

I think the uniform issue represents a lot personal biases that end up with a "he who shall scream the loudest type of mentality." It's from those personal biases that we become a hodge podge of different uniforms, largely because someone doesn't want the CAP in military uniforms or wants them in a uniform akin to that individual's former military service....so you end up with flag patches on left shoulder sleves, double breasted CSUs or efforts by some people to push for red insignia or name plates.

Probably meant to say RIGHT :clap:

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If the Air Force is concerned about the image that we present while wearing "their uniform" then perhaps we should get all of our adult membership out of it and simply adopt the corporate style uniforms.  After all, they are equal to the Air Force style ones, so that means that we could still get the job done, right?  Then we wouldn't have to be worried about being confused for "Real Air Force" people, our members trolling for salutes, and we might just have a unified look for our members so that people just might think we're in the same organization as the guy we're standing next to.

I think that the AF style uniforms are an important tool for our cadets, in terms of marketability of our program.

Oh yeah, that really would fix the issue of trolling for salutes(sarcasm). The only way to fix the issue, is when it happens next, get rid of the guy and set an example, because I am sure it happens in corporate uniforms as well.

If we are being confused for "real Air Force", that is not our problem. In BDUs we have giant blue and white, not subdued, nametapes that clearly say CIVIL AIR PATROL, and bright colored patches, not subdued, if they can't see that from a fair distance, then they shouldn't be in the military. In blues, with the service jacket we have big gray epaulets that even say CAP on them, if they can't see that and figure out, well that isn't USAF, then they shouldn't be in the military. In blues without the service jacket we have the same epaulets and a gray nameplate, if they can't see that and figure out that it isn't Air Force, then they shouldn't be in the military.

No, we should not all transfer to BBDUs, then we would look like Police SWAT. That is an offense that could land your butt in jail. Personally I think we should wait until we all transition to whatever field uniform the USAF wants us in and then get rid of the BBDU for the BDU. That would work pretty well, unless everyone goes back to the BDU, which isn't likely.

Still, personal preference is to have everyone in USAF style uniforms regardless of weight.

I agree Flyboy1. :clap:

[flyboy53]

I think the uniform issue represents a lot personal biases that end up with a "he who shall scream the loudest type of mentality." It's from those personal biases that we become a hodge podge of different uniforms, largely because someone doesn't want the CAP in military uniforms or wants them in a uniform akin to that individual's former military service....so you end up with flag patches on left shoulder sleves, double breasted CSUs or efforts by some people to push for red insignia or name plates.

Probably meant to say RIGHT :clap:

This is true....my military right...correction noted.

[BradM]

No, we should not all transfer to BBDUs, then we would look like Police SWAT. That is an offense that could land your butt in jail.

My squadron has an O flight activity this weekend and since I have a goatee I'm wearing the BBDUs. Does that mean the local police is going to arrest me because they'll say I'm impersonating a SWAT officer? lol

I don't understand why you added that last sentence. I wrote what I wrote above and added the SWAT picture because the cadet said he would quit if all cadets had to wear the BBDUs. They don't look at all bad. Just different than those in woodland BDUs.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

No, we should not all transfer to BBDUs, then we would look like Police SWAT. That is an offense that could land your butt in jail.

My squadron has an O flight activity this weekend and since I have a goatee I'm wearing the BBDUs. Does that mean the local police is going to arrest me because they'll say I'm impersonating a SWAT officer? lol

I don't understand why you added that last sentence. I wrote what I wrote above and added the SWAT picture because the cadet said he would quit if all cadets had to wear the BBDUs. They don't look at all bad. Just different than those in woodland BDUs.

I said it because that IS a color of SWAT. It doesn't matter what uniform you go with, there will always be someone somewhere saying that you look like someone else.

However, No, I don't think anyone would be arrested for the BBDU, Police at least are smart enough to read, and take in information through their eyes.

[RiverAux]

[In BDUs we have giant blue and white, not subdued, nametapes that clearly say CIVIL AIR PATROL, and bright colored patches, not subdued, if they can't see that from a fair distance, then they shouldn't be in the military. In blues, with the service jacket we have big gray epaulets that even say CAP on them, if they can't see that and figure out, well that isn't USAF, then they shouldn't be in the military. In blues without the service jacket we have the same epaulets and a gray nameplate, if they can't see that and figure out that it isn't Air Force, then they shouldn't be in the military.

I've been making the point for years that CAP's BDUs have absolutely nothing on them to associate the wearer with the Air Force any more than it associated them with the Army or Marines (back when all were in BDUs).

Our AF-style uniforms are already incredibly distinctive such that anyone in the military should immediately be able to tell the difference. 

Therefore, there is no logical reason that all CAP members shouldn't be able to wear them. 

[BradM]

BBDUs give me a chance to wear blue while having a goatee so I like them. I also have a set of woodland BDUs and I'm keeping my Air Force uniform current so I can wear it at a moments notice. And I have my hair cut short. All I need to do is decide to go to the mustache and 15 minutes later I can wear all the AF uniforms for that event. Then start to regrow my goatee again. It looks good in one month and best at 2 months But I'd rather not shave it off again if I didnt have to.