Uniforms: Things never change...gotta love consistancy

[Ned]

I am for having one uniform for all SM's.

( . . .)

One uniform, so we can look, you know.... uniform.

Yeah!  Just like the AF . . . . .oh, wait a minute, they have about the same number of uniform combinations as we do.

What do they know that we do not?

Perhaps the reason we have as many uniform combinations as we do is the same reason that the AF has as many uniform combinations as they do.

Simply because we need the uniforms we have to get our job done effectively and efficiently.  It is worth remembering that uniforms are only a tool that helps us get our job(s) done.  And again - just like our USAF colleagues - reasonable minds may well differ as to exactly how many different combinations we need, but it is safe to say that we will never, ever have complete consensus on the subject.

And thank God for that.  Otherwise we might spend most of our time talking about performing our missions, rather than how we are dressed when we are doing them.  Imagine what would happen to CAP-Talk if that ever occurred.

[Eclipse]

Simply because we need the uniforms we have to get our job done effectively and efficiently.

Except that we don't, as evidenced by similar organizations such as the NSCC, USCGAux, ACA, and just about every SDF in the country.
There is no practical or operational reason for us to have two different classes of uniforms.

None.

[BradM]

Simply because we need the uniforms we have to get our job done effectively and efficiently.

Except that we don't, as evidenced by similar organizations such as the NSCC, USCGAux, ACA, and just about every SDF in the country.
There is no practical or operational reason for us to have two different classes of uniforms.

None.

If you made it so we Senior Members only had Air Force uniforms to wear and kept the grooming and weight standards then all the chubbys would have to leave CAP and the bearded guys would have to decide to leave or shave. Is that what you would want?

[Eclipse]

You might want to actually read what I wrote.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If you made it so we Senior Members only had Air Force uniforms to wear and kept the grooming and weight standards then all the chubbys would have to leave CAP and the bearded guys would have to decide to leave or shave. Is that what you would want?

No, that is not what were saying, for the most part. EVERYBODY would be able to wear the USAF style uniforms, with no weight restrictions. Now about the fuzzy people, yes, that would mean they have to shave and have a haircut in regulation.

[Ned]

There is no practical or operational reason for us to have two different classes of uniforms.

None.

Noted, but that is not a negation of the statement that we "need" uniforms for people who do not meet body mass/ grooming issues for the other uniforms.

IOW, the "need" in this instance is driven by other than "operational or practical" reasons.

Heck, we might even be able to accomplish most of our missions wearing a t-shirt and jeans.  That doesn't mean that we don't "need" uniforms to help us accomplish our missions more effectively and efficiently.

Uniforms are a tool.  And like a tool, sometimes you need the right tool for the right job.  Last time I went to Sears, they had a lot of different tools to get the job done effectively and efficiently.

[BradM]

If you made it so we Senior Members only had Air Force uniforms to wear and kept the grooming and weight standards then all the chubbys would have to leave CAP and the bearded guys would have to decide to leave or shave. Is that what you would want?

No, that is not what were saying, for the most part. EVERYBODY would be able to wear the USAF style uniforms, with no weight restrictions. Now about the fuzzy people, yes, that would mean they have to shave and have a haircut in regulation.

If overweight people can wear the uniforms why not go all the way and have neatly trimmed bearded guys with a short haircut also be allowed to wear them? If you're going to allow one I dont see why you cant allow the other? Or are we bearded guys going to have to wait until the 23rd Century before we can wear a uniform with a beard?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If you made it so we Senior Members only had Air Force uniforms to wear and kept the grooming and weight standards then all the chubbys would have to leave CAP and the bearded guys would have to decide to leave or shave. Is that what you would want?

No, that is not what were saying, for the most part. EVERYBODY would be able to wear the USAF style uniforms, with no weight restrictions. Now about the fuzzy people, yes, that would mean they have to shave and have a haircut in regulation.

If overweight people can wear the uniforms why not go all the way and have neatly trimmed bearded guys with a short haircut also be allowed to wear them? If you're going to allow one I dont see why you cant allow the other? Or are we bearded guys going to have to wait until the 23rd Century before we can wear a uniform with a beard?

Every company, organization, and business has some sort of standards and everyone wanting to be a part of it must adhere to it.

Just because you want to have your goatee or beard doesn't mean that it fits into your organization's standards. I have full sleeve tattoos, and I do like to display them, but I know that CAP is not the place for them.

Were I to own my own company, I would have standards as well, no long hair, clean shaven, and no visible tattoos. This is the fact of business.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

But considering the fact we have taken "USAFAUX" off everything (planes, emblems, and autos), I do not foresee expanding the usaf-style uniforms.

We have not taken "USAF Aux" off everything.







All of these are currently stocked by Vanguard.

Why we ever did away with this MAJCOM-style shield is beyond me.



Also, take note of what I said about a conversation I believe we need to have with the Air Force - respectfully, but frankly, asking them if we are still needed anymore.  If we aren't, the conversation about anything to do with uniforms ends, because CAP will no longer exist.  If we are, then we continue the conversation.

As I've said before, I just can't figure why so many in this organisation champion a frankly colourless uniform design like grey and white.  Are they supposed to be the only "safe" hues available to us?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Lemme know if I can help.  As someone from one of Her Majesty's Dominions, we're used to bowing before Royalty and showing proper deference...

I think it would probably be easier to get an audience with Her Majesty The Queen or His Excellency the Governor-General of Canada than for anyone under the rank of Brigadier General (Lieutenant Colonel Lee excepted ) to get much of anything WRT CAP across the Air Force's collective desk.

[Eclipse]

There is no practical or operational reason for us to have two different classes of uniforms.

None.

Noted, but that is not a negation of the statement that we "need" uniforms for people who do not meet body mass/ grooming issues for the other uniforms.

Ned, you missed the point, which was there is no practical or operational need to separate our members because of weight standards.  None, nada.
It is an aesthetic decision made by the USAF, nothing more, and does not serve CAP well.

[BradM]

If you made it so we Senior Members only had Air Force uniforms to wear and kept the grooming and weight standards then all the chubbys would have to leave CAP and the bearded guys would have to decide to leave or shave. Is that what you would want?

No, that is not what were saying, for the most part. EVERYBODY would be able to wear the USAF style uniforms, with no weight restrictions. Now about the fuzzy people, yes, that would mean they have to shave and have a haircut in regulation.

If overweight people can wear the uniforms why not go all the way and have neatly trimmed bearded guys with a short haircut also be allowed to wear them? If you're going to allow one I dont see why you cant allow the other? Or are we bearded guys going to have to wait until the 23rd Century before we can wear a uniform with a beard?

Every company, organization, and business has some sort of standards and everyone wanting to be a part of it must adhere to it.

Just because you want to have your goatee or beard doesn't mean that it fits into your organization's standards. I have full sleeve tattoos, and I do like to display them, but I know that CAP is not the place for them.

Were I to own my own company, I would have standards as well, no long hair, clean shaven, and no visible tattoos. This is the fact of business.

Thats B.S. Manfred if you're going to make weight allowances then make facial hair allowances too. We are making a standard by saying Civil War type long beards arent allowed but closely trimed ones are. Like the Riker picture I posted on page 3.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If you made it so we Senior Members only had Air Force uniforms to wear and kept the grooming and weight standards then all the chubbys would have to leave CAP and the bearded guys would have to decide to leave or shave. Is that what you would want?

No, that is not what were saying, for the most part. EVERYBODY would be able to wear the USAF style uniforms, with no weight restrictions. Now about the fuzzy people, yes, that would mean they have to shave and have a haircut in regulation.

If overweight people can wear the uniforms why not go all the way and have neatly trimmed bearded guys with a short haircut also be allowed to wear them? If you're going to allow one I dont see why you cant allow the other? Or are we bearded guys going to have to wait until the 23rd Century before we can wear a uniform with a beard?

Every company, organization, and business has some sort of standards and everyone wanting to be a part of it must adhere to it.

Just because you want to have your goatee or beard doesn't mean that it fits into your organization's standards. I have full sleeve tattoos, and I do like to display them, but I know that CAP is not the place for them.

Were I to own my own company, I would have standards as well, no long hair, clean shaven, and no visible tattoos. This is the fact of business.

Thats B.S. Manfred if you're going to make weight allowances then make facial hair allowances too. We are making a standard by saying Civil War type long beards arent allowed but closely trimed ones are. Like the Riker picture I posted on page 3.

USAF does not allow even short beards, so why would we when we are wearing their uniforms?

[Eclipse]

Military grooming with no weight standard is a reasonable compromise from where we are today.

Most people can easily control their hair and beard (I said most), and choose to have it in a style
less mainstream.  The vast majority of members do not wear a beard or have unreasonably long hair.

[cap235629]

If you made it so we Senior Members only had Air Force uniforms to wear and kept the grooming and weight standards then all the chubbys would have to leave CAP and the bearded guys would have to decide to leave or shave. Is that what you would want?

No, that is not what were saying, for the most part. EVERYBODY would be able to wear the USAF style uniforms, with no weight restrictions. Now about the fuzzy people, yes, that would mean they have to shave and have a haircut in regulation.

If overweight people can wear the uniforms why not go all the way and have neatly trimmed bearded guys with a short haircut also be allowed to wear them? If you're going to allow one I dont see why you cant allow the other? Or are we bearded guys going to have to wait until the 23rd Century before we can wear a uniform with a beard?

Every company, organization, and business has some sort of standards and everyone wanting to be a part of it must adhere to it.

Just because you want to have your goatee or beard doesn't mean that it fits into your organization's standards. I have full sleeve tattoos, and I do like to display them, but I know that CAP is not the place for them.

Were I to own my own company, I would have standards as well, no long hair, clean shaven, and no visible tattoos. This is the fact of business.

Thats B.S. Manfred if you're going to make weight allowances then make facial hair allowances too. We are making a standard by saying Civil War type long beards arent allowed but closely trimed ones are. Like the Riker picture I posted on page 3.

USAF does not allow even short beards, so why would we when we are wearing their uniforms?

Maybe we should make beards mandatory so there would be no mistaking that we are not Air Force officers.........

             

[Ned]

There is no practical or operational reason for us to have two different classes of uniforms.

None.

Noted, but that is not a negation of the statement that we "need" uniforms for people who do not meet body mass/ grooming issues for the other uniforms.

Ned, you missed the point, which was there is no practical or operational need to separate our members because of weight standards.  None, nada.
It is an aesthetic decision made by the USAF, nothing more, and does not serve CAP well.

No, I managed to figue that out that you were talking about the AF restrictions on the wearing of their uniforms.

Perhaps you missed my point:  the USAF's decision to hold everyone in their uniforms to the same weight and grooming standards (a "uniform standard", if you will  ) is a reasonable decisions, and one entirely within their discretion to make.  You or I may personally disagree, but it is clearly their decision to make.

That decision, along with operational concerns, costs for the membership, the special needs of the cadet program, and other factors drive the "need" for the uniform constellation we have.

Which was my point.  We have a bunch of uniforms, because we need a bunch of uniforms to do our job.  And that is exactly the same reason that the AF (and all the other services) have about the same number of uniform combinations as we do.

And, yes, I recognize that members of those services argue about what is "needed" or "appropriate" as much or more than we do.  I was an Army guy for a bunch of decades, and the debates about fatigues vs BDUs and - more recently - berets for all soldiers, were just as lengthy, detailed, and vitriolic as anything we see in the endless CAP Talk discussions on the CAP uniform.

And ulitmately, just as pointless.

[BradM]

Maybe we should make beards mandatory so there would be no mistaking that we are not Air Force officers.........

             

I dont think Manfred can grow a mustache or a beard. Thats why he is against them

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Maybe we should make beards mandatory so there would be no mistaking that we are not Air Force officers.........

             

I dont think Manfred can grow a mustache or a beard. Thats why he is against them

HA!  Now that's funny lol. No, I can grow a decent spread of gnasty on my face, but I don't like it, I just think looks unprofessional. I have to shave every morning or else I will itch like crazy by 1500. I am just very particular about what presents a military image. I know that the Army Navy Marine Corps and yes, even the Air Force all have people who are overweight, and they sometimes don't do anything about it. Many times the Army will keep someone overweight because they are very valuable to the company that they are in, because no one there knows weapon systems and how to repair them as good as they do. But let that heavy guy come in without shaving and watch the feathers fly. They know that they have overweight personnel in their uniform, yet they won't let us have overweight personnel in their uniform. But no one has a full beard. If they have a shaving profile though, that is a different story, they still have to have a hair cut and their facial hair can't go past the length specified by their doctor, usually not more than 1/4 inch.

[BradM]

Then I want a "shaving profile" or "shaving waiver" since if I shave my neck two days in a row I get a red razor burn rash. I wouldnt be able to shave with a razor daily. Right now I shave Monday, Thurs, and Saturday to prevent razor burn.

[SarDragon]

If you made it so we Senior Members only had Air Force uniforms to wear and kept the grooming and weight standards then all the chubbys would have to leave CAP and the bearded guys would have to decide to leave or shave. Is that what you would want?

No, that is not what were saying, for the most part. EVERYBODY would be able to wear the USAF style uniforms, with no weight restrictions. Now about the fuzzy people, yes, that would mean they have to shave and have a haircut in regulation.

Why is that discrimination necessary? I could attempt to make the argument that a large number of those chubby folks have a choice, too, in their diet, eating habits, and exercise regimen.

I don't shave any more than I have to because it is a painful chore. I had a beard as much as possible in the Navy, until they were banned, and then shaved as little as I could get away with, to maintain a satisfactory appearance.

I do maintain a hairstyle that is military appearing, perhaps a tad long, because I realized that it looked better and presented a more professional appearance.