CAPM 39-1 REVISIONS GAME

[Hawk200]

In comparison, creased sleeves on BDU's are extremely visible and I don't buy the argument for a second that we should just tell the cadets to not worry about details of uniform wear and instead go focus on the mission.

Nobody said not to worry about it. You're advocating that people make of point of avoiding a practice that's a normal result of ironing the uniform.

And with that I'm officially walking away from this conversation and not going to get involved in another uniform conversation on Captalk.  All I've asked for repeatedly is for everyone to agree that the uniform manual should be updated to say specifically what and how this should be done so that everyone is standardized.  It should be really, really simple to do. 

Farewell, Uniforms & Awards section of Captalk.

You may as well quit CAPTalk. Any section can end up as polarized as the other. The martyr complex isn't gonna change anyone's mind.

[Major Carrales]

Wow...this has been an example of something unusual.  Many of you have always toted the "if its not in the manual we can't/shouldn't do it" argument, yet this occasion points out that there are times when commonsense applies.  Some of you who are pressing for the commonsense approach have often used the "if its not in the manual we can't/shouldn't do it" to others.

What is the lesson here?  Tolerance...?  Moderation...?  Commonsensical application of the regulations?  Who's to say.

Now, I am pretty sure the regulations and manuals regarding uniforms are not designed to hinder the mission.   I'll say this...if you are in uniform and it starts raining, the temperature drops or the same (for example the temperature this week alone in South Texas has gone from tee shirt to heavy coat...as in 20 degree mornings and 60 degree afternoons) you protect your health first.

If I'm at a SARex and this sort of thing happens (after one can't take there whole CAP wardrobe to such an activity) and conditions force it...I'll let my cadets put on a Hello Kitty jacket, if necessary, to keep them from hypothermia.

[Patterson]

If I'm at a SARex and this sort of thing happens (after one can't take there whole CAP wardrobe to such an activity) and conditions force it...I'll let my cadets put on a Hello Kitty jacket, if necessary, to keep them from hypothermia.

Well, since safety is the big thing in CAP these days, I am surprised National does not make us all carry around a Hello Kitty jacket!!

Seriously, Safety, Health and Welfare will always trump the regulation.  Unless you want to try to explain at the trial that you "were only following regulations" when you wouldn't let Cadet SpongeBob put the Hello Kitty jacket on when it started snowing.

[cap235629]

Seriously, Safety, Health and Welfare will always trump the regulation.  Unless you want to try to explain at the trial that you "were only following regulations" when you wouldn't let Cadet SpongeBob put the Hello Kitty jacket on when it started snowing.

I am wondering why this topic hasn't been "Eclipsed" yet   

[davidsinn]

Seriously, Safety, Health and Welfare will always trump the regulation.  Unless you want to try to explain at the trial that you "were only following regulations" when you wouldn't let Cadet SpongeBob put the Hello Kitty jacket on when it started snowing.

I am wondering why this topic hasn't been "Eclipsed" yet 

I was actually wondering the same thing.

[SarDragon]

Maybe the snow took out his 'Net connection?

[davidsinn]

Maybe the snow took out his 'Net connection?

And his smart phone? Naw, dude got abducted by aliens. It's the only logical conclusion.

[Patterson]

I am wondering why this topic hasn't been "Eclipsed" yet   

Inside joke.................hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha   :clap: :clap:

[Eclipse]

Maybe the snow took out his 'Net connection?

And his smart phone? Naw, dude got abducted by aliens. It's the only logical conclusion.

There's no snow where I am right now - beautiful, balmy Fort Lauderdale.

I was involved earlier on, but even I know at some point what a waste of time discussing revs to 39-1 are on here. 

The inconsistencies, internal & external conflicts, and oversights are so simple to fix that if NHQ was interested in doing it,
it would already be done.

2-3 of us could fix everything in a couple of days, maybe a week if we took all new photos.

So what's the point?

[cap235629]

we were getting ready to launch a search! Glad it is sunny where you are, I left the house at 6am and it was -5 with 9 inches of snow on the ground. I moved south to get away from all this crap!

[NCRblues]

Maybe the snow took out his 'Net connection?

And his smart phone? Naw, dude got abducted by aliens. It's the only logical conclusion.

There's no snow where I am right now - beautiful, balmy Fort Lauderdale.

I was involved earlier on, but even I know at some point what a waste of time discussing revs to 39-1 are on here. 

The inconsistencies, internal & external conflicts, and oversights are so simple to fix that if NHQ was interested in doing it,
it would already be done.

2-3 of us could fix everything in a couple of days, maybe a week if we took all new photos.

So what's the point?

You know, eclipse's post made me think. NHQ and the NB always say we need new this and new that, but, why not a new 39-1?

Why has there not been a new 39-1? Am i mistaken or was there not a "uniform commite"? What happend to it? Did they recommend to NOT right a new 39-1?

maybe its just me but.....some of us posters that are very dedicated should get together and write up a whole new one, and then (ill pay for printing and shipping) send it to every wing commander and region commander and ask them to approve it asap....might get done faster ah? 

[cap235629]

Maybe the snow took out his 'Net connection?

And his smart phone? Naw, dude got abducted by aliens. It's the only logical conclusion.

There's no snow where I am right now - beautiful, balmy Fort Lauderdale.

I was involved earlier on, but even I know at some point what a waste of time discussing revs to 39-1 are on here. 

The inconsistencies, internal & external conflicts, and oversights are so simple to fix that if NHQ was interested in doing it,
it would already be done.

2-3 of us could fix everything in a couple of days, maybe a week if we took all new photos.

So what's the point?

You know, eclipse's post made me think. NHQ and the NB always say we need new this and new that, but, why not a new 39-1?

Why has there not been a new 39-1? Am i mistaken or was there not a "uniform commite"? What happend to it? Did they recommend to NOT right a new 39-1?

maybe its just me but.....some of us posters that are very dedicated should get together and write up a whole new one, and then (ill pay for printing and shipping) send it to every wing commander and region commander and ask them to approve it asap....might get done faster ah? 

I'm in

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Same here!!!

[Larry Mangum]

" It's my job to know everything.  I left Intel because of the mass number of people who specialized in saying, "I'll get back to you on that," because they didn't know everything "

No one can ever know everything, and no regulation is ever going to cover 100% of the thoughts and ideas that a cadet or senior can come up with.

[Eclipse]

No one can ever know everything, and no regulation is ever going to cover 100% of the thoughts and ideas that a cadet or senior can come up with.

We don't need a document that covers "100% of the thoughts and ideas that a cadet or senior can come up with", we only need one that covers the uniform items we are approved to wear.

There is no reason it cannot be 100% correct, especially if it is a live document instead of a .pdf, etc. 

Light up an authorized wiki with SME's as the editors.  Anything that comes up as a conflict or question can be fixed on the fly, with discussion pages behind the reg to justify decisions, etc.

"Regulations" need to much authority to change and approve, our uniform directions should probably not be an "R", they should probably be a "M", "P", or "I".

CAPR 39-1 should be one or two pages that outlines then when and who of wear requirements, and perhaps the designators for each class of member, with a reference to "wear in compliance with most recent version of CAPI 39-1"

[Major Carrales]

So, how much personal uniform bias could we expect from that? (the proposed rewritting of CAPM 39-1 mentioned in posts prior)  Are y'all gonna stomp on Hawk gear?  Limit WING SUPPLEMENTS?  I am not writting this to be "that way," however, if you are planning to make CAP uniform wear standard you need to think about how far you want to go with it.  The prior issues have to be taken into account.

[Eclipse]

So, how much personal uniform bias could we expect from that? (the proposed rewritting of CAPM 39-1 mentioned in posts prior)  Are y'all gonna stomp on Hawk gear?  Limit WING SUPPLEMENTS?  I am not writting this to be "that way," however, if you are planning to make CAP uniform wear standard you need to think about how far you want to go with it.  The prior issues have to be taken into account.

No custom uniforms, period.

No wing supplements, period. (anything justified for safety becomes a 60-1 supplement only approved for wear when performing that task
and not allowed in mission base).

Done.

[Major Carrales]

So, how much personal uniform bias could we expect from that? (the proposed rewriting of CAPM 39-1 mentioned in posts prior)  Are y'all gonna stomp on Hawk gear?  Limit WING SUPPLEMENTS?  I am not writting this to be "that way," however, if you are planning to make CAP uniform wear standard you need to think about how far you want to go with it.  The prior issues have to be taken into account.

No custom uniforms, period.

No wing supplements, period. (anything justified for safety becomes a 60-1 supplement only approved for wear when performing that task
and not allowed in mission base).

Done.

You realize that eliminates countless honor cords (as in the Texas CTEP ones authorized by wing supplement, for example), numerous orange items (Hawk Mountain doodads and the California SHIRT mandated by State Law) and countless other such things.  I suspect that the movement to a standard uniform worn homogeneously systemwide would hit that "wall of traditions" and Wing commanders would, likely never, let it see the light of day.

As a point of order from another thread...in a world where we elected Wing Commanders, those traditions would stand since, if the supplemented items were popular, no Wing Commander would vote for their removal.

Despite all the outrage here about wanting a standard uniform, I suspect that people like "their corners of the world."

[DKruse]

No custom uniforms, period.

No wing supplements, period. (anything justified for safety becomes a 60-1 supplement only approved for wear when performing that task
and not allowed in mission base).

Done.

Unless CAP is going to start issuing cadets (and possibly seniors) ECWCS items, some flexibility is needed to keep warm in some of the colder wings.  I'm sorry, but with the weather we've had here lately in Minnesota, a field jacket with liner is not enough to keep warm.  Actually, I've had some members tell me that it's sometimes hard to stay warm with ECWCS items.

[Eclipse]

No custom uniforms, period.

No wing supplements, period. (anything justified for safety becomes a 60-1 supplement only approved for wear when performing that task
and not allowed in mission base).

Done.

Unless CAP is going to start issuing cadets (and possibly seniors) ECWCS items, some flexibility is needed to keep warm in some of the colder wings.  I'm sorry, but with the weather we've had here lately in Minnesota, a field jacket with liner is not enough to keep warm.  Actually, I've had some members tell me that it's sometimes hard to stay warm with ECWCS items.

"Flexibility" does not require a supplement, only common sense.  For those of you who have not had the pleasure, spend some time reading our finely crafted supplements - the majority of the directives you will find are simply restatements of exisiting regulations, as if adding another "really" to "you will" would make a difference.

To Sparky, I know exactly what it means - 1 uniform, 1 CAP.  And all the nonsesne arguments and discussions we have to deal with after encampments, HMRS, NESA, whatever, disappear overnight.  I will gladly accept the week or two of the wailing and gnashing of teeth to make that go away.