CAPM 39-1 REVISIONS GAME

[davidsinn]

The other traditional creases are expected.

Oh really? Where is it stated they are expected? Where is it explained how to do them? Unless it's in writing you can forget about me doing it. I'm not going to waste my time on something totally useless unless I have to. Just because it's tradition does not make it a good idea.

[Ron1319]

"COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY.  Any variation from this publication is not authorized." ... "This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within."

It seems pretty clear to me that military tradition does not dictate uniform wear.

[Hawk200]

The other traditional creases are expected.

Oh really? Where is it stated they are expected? Where is it explained how to do them? Unless it's in writing you can forget about me doing it. I'm not going to waste my time on something totally useless unless I have to. Just because it's tradition does not make it a good idea.

See below.

It seems pretty clear to me that military tradition does not dictate uniform wear.

And it seems pretty clear to me that you've never spent any time in the service. Not everything you're expected to do is going to be spelled out in regulations. The manual doesn't tell you how to shine shoes or boots, but you're expected to do so.

If you want to be non comformist, that's fine. Don't join an organization that requires uniformity. Fighting tradition is a sure way to indicate that you're not a team player. If a tradition is not harmful (meaning safety wise, hazing, etc.), fighting it is inadvisable. Fight the things that don't make sense, not the things you don't feel like doing.

Edit:spelling

[Major Carrales]

Add to that the "local" traditions that sprout up in units and Wings (like the NEW YORK WING tradition of SENIORS AND CADETS exchanging rank insignia, unit baseball caps and the like) then its a whole world of FUN operating beyond the shadows of CAPM 39-1.

[Hawk200]

Add to that the "local" traditions that sprout up in units and Wings (like the NEW YORK WING tradition of SENIORS AND CADETS exchanging rank insignia, unit baseball caps and the like) then its a whole world of FUN operating beyond the shadows of CAPM 39-1.

Not really familiar with that "tradition." Some enlightenment (meaning specific details) could give me something to work with as to whether or not they're acceptable or not.

[davidsinn]

The other traditional creases are expected.

Oh really? Where is it stated they are expected? Where is it explained how to do them? Unless it's in writing you can forget about me doing it. I'm not going to waste my time on something totally useless unless I have to. Just because it's tradition does not make it a good idea.

See below.

It seems pretty clear to me that military tradition does not dictate uniform wear.

And it seems pretty clear to me that you've never spent any time in the service. Not everything you're expected to do is going to be spelled out in regulations. The manual doesn't tell you how to shine shoes or boots, but you're expected to do so.

The manual does state to shine your boots/shoes. It does not state to crease your sleeves. You've lost this argument because you have nothing to back you up other than "we've always done it that way."

If it's not spelled out as something I need to do then I'm not going to waste my time on it. I am fighting something that doesn't make sense. It doesn't make any sense to crease sleeves because some people think we need to because they used to do it in the military.

[Major Carrales]

Add to that the "local" traditions that sprout up in units and Wings (like the NEW YORK WING tradition of SENIORS AND CADETS exchanging rank insignia, unit baseball caps and the like) then its a whole world of FUN operating beyond the shadows of CAPM 39-1.

Not really familiar with that "tradition." Some enlightenment (meaning specific details) could give me something to work with as to whether or not they're acceptable or not.

About three years ago I was trying to end the practice of "funny or otherwise weird" uniform threads where people posted photos of CAP members in odd uniform situations, some clearly out of uniform, out of context.  It usually became a place where people would "dogpile," poke fun of and post unbecoming comments about and behind their backs. 

It became a CAP-PAO's nightmare, instead of having a positive effect...it gathered all sorts of wrong in one place and compounded it with vitriolic comments.

One thing that was posted in those were some photos from a NEW YORK WING conference of Cadets wearing gray shoulder marks with ranks like Lt Col and Major.  Additionally, there were some adult members wearing blue Cadet Officer ones.  When I pointed this out to the very same people who were defending the "Funny Uniform Threads," they seemed to make an exception for this citing that this was an old WING tradition and I was uninformed (mostly because I prefer to wear a service cap instead of a flight cap...I used to get that a lot).

This practice happened at their dining in and somehow the photos got on line...but it was somehow "acceptable" while another photo, where a CAP officer in a fight cap was obscured where it looked as if a BDU-clad arm was his, was a horrible example of a uniform violation.  The person in question was in full blues, only obscured, and apparently a beloved and well respect CAP officer.

All that aside...the practice of exchanging ranks at a HIGH CAP function like a WING CONFERENCE dinning-in was being done.

[NCRblues]

The other traditional creases are expected.

Oh really? Where is it stated they are expected? Where is it explained how to do them? Unless it's in writing you can forget about me doing it. I'm not going to waste my time on something totally useless unless I have to. Just because it's tradition does not make it a good idea.

See below.

It seems pretty clear to me that military tradition does not dictate uniform wear.

And it seems pretty clear to me that you've never spent any time in the service. Not everything you're expected to do is going to be spelled out in regulations. The manual doesn't tell you how to shine shoes or boots, but you're expected to do so.

The manual does state to shine your boots/shoes. It does not state to crease your sleeves. You've lost this argument because you have nothing to back you up other than "we've always done it that way."

If it's not spelled out as something I need to do then I'm not going to waste my time on it. I am fighting something that doesn't make sense. It doesn't make any sense to crease sleeves because some people think we need to because they used to do it in the military.

WAIT!! Time out here folks....

Are we really going at it over to shine boots or not? Or to crease your sleeves on Bdus's?

davidsinn, do you really not shine your boots or dress shoes because it does not spell it out in 39-1....? Please tell me this is joke....

[Ron1319]

That's clearly not what he said.  It's also clear in the regs that you should always wear your own grade.

[Ron1319]

The manual specifically says "Military creases are prohibited." The other traditional creases are expected. Raging that "THE MANUAL DOESN'T SAY I HAVE TO!" isn't gonna change the fact that it's expected. You may be absolutely certain you're right, but it could cost you. And you wouldn't be the last cadet to be thought of as "That former Spaatz cadet that thinks he knows everything." Just food for thought.

You mean last senior?  You wouldn't be the last senior to say, "Forget the (former) Spaatz cadet who quotes regs to me proving I'm wrong.  I'm going to keep doing it the way I've always done it.  I'd might as well tell him it might cost him for following the rules while I'm at it."

[Hawk200]

The manual does state to shine your boots/shoes. It does not state to crease your sleeves. You've lost this argument because you have nothing to back you up other than "we've always done it that way."

As to creasing sleeves, you're right, it's not mentioned when it comes to BDUs. It is stated for service uniforms. Table 2-1, Item 2; Table 2-2, Item 2. Those do mention creases on the epaulet.

Now when it comes to BDUs, it specifically forbids military creases. Now, if it forbids one type of crease, there's more than one type, isn't there?

If it's not spelled out as something I need to do then I'm not going to waste my time on it.

Doing the bare minimun doesn't exactly reflect "good credit." That's mediocrity.

I am fighting something that doesn't make sense.

No, you're not, you're just fighting something. They aren't the same. It looks like you don't want to, not a case of it not making sense.

Two points on this:
1. If you're spending time avoiding creasing the shirt when you're ironing it, you're wasting time.
2. What makes it so wrong to do it? You obviously think it's wrong somehow. How? And why?

It doesn't make any sense to crease sleeves because some people think we need to because they used to do it in the military.

Of course, that little argument would come up. "Only the military would crease a shirt sleeve! It's ridiculous!" No, you might not be saying it, but that's how a lot of people are reading it.

Creases in the sleeves of shirts have been around since the commercial press was first used. It's not something unique to the military.

The manual specifically says "Military creases are prohibited." The other traditional creases are expected. Raging that "THE MANUAL DOESN'T SAY I HAVE TO!" isn't gonna change the fact that it's expected. You may be absolutely certain you're right, but it could cost you. And you wouldn't be the last cadet to be thought of as "That former Spaatz cadet that thinks he knows everything." Just food for thought.

You mean last senior?  You wouldn't be the last senior to say, "Forget the (former) Spaatz cadet who quotes regs to me proving I'm wrong.  I'm going to keep doing it the way I've always done it.  I'd might as well tell him it might cost him for following the rules while I'm at it."

You trumpeted the fact that you were a Spaatz cadet, don't get mad me at me for pigeonholing yourself.

Second, you haven't quoted anything proving me wrong. There is no victory here, because there wasn't a contest. What I'm telling you is that being blatantly non-conformist can cost you. 

Third, you're not following a rule in any way, shape, or form. You're making your own rules. Telling people NOT to put creases in their shirts is your opinion. It's not in the manual, you want it to be. Trying to change the manual to support your opinion doesn't make it a rule. It's a circular logic that fails.

[Ron1319]

The manual says very clearly to only do what it says.  Since it doesn't say to, you can't.  Period.  It says to crease blues sleeves so we do.  It doesn't say to crease BDU sleeves (or where, or how, or how much of the sleeve.)

I could arbitrarily decide to put creases up the sleeve every 6" would that be OK?  It would being doing more than what was asked and therefore not mediocrity.

[Ron1319]

See the thing is, I don't have a preference one way or the other.  Im not trying to get them to change the manual to match my view.  If they clarify and say crease the sleeves, I'll crease the sleeves.

[Slim]

You know, I've started two responses to this nonsense, both of which would probably have seen me tossed in the CAP-Talk dungeon and the key thrown out.

True, the manual doesn't specifically say "Crease your sleeves."  I'll give you that one.  The manual also specifies that a blue belt must be worn, and that the tip (for BDUs anyway) may extend up to one inch past the buckle.  But it doesn't specify that the belt tip must actually pass through the buckle.  The manual also specifies that black combat boots must be worn, yet fails to mention that those boots must be tied.  Using the logic put forth here, there is nothing to say that I have to tie my boots or pass my belt through the buckle, therefore I'm completely justified if I choose not to.  I've yet to see someone walking around with their bootlaces dragging the hell along the ground behind them, or with the end of their belt over top of their buckle.  Common sense tells us to do such things, so we do them.

Crease your sleeves, or don't.  I don't really care one way or the other, as long as your uniform doesn't look like you had to sneak up on it to put it on, or you pulled it out from under the bed.  But to tell someone they can't because it's not in the manual is pretty durn stupid.

FWIW, I crease my sleeves and wing patch.  Why?  Because that's how I was taught when I first put on a CAP uniform 27 years ago, and because I happen to like them that way.  It helps present a neat, professional appearance.  If you can put forth the same without creased sleeves (and I know lots of people who can and do), good on ya, here's a bunny with a pancake on it's head.

[a2capt]

I just can't quit laughing. Sleeve creases? Seriously? Really?

[SarDragon]

Ron, I really think you ought to lighten up.


When you lay a shirt flat to iron it, you end up with four creases: collar to sleeve cuff X 2, and cuff to armpit to tail X 2. To not have those creases takes longer to iron the shirt. If there are creases in a BDU shirt, it's no big deal. They don't have to be starched razor sharp, like on a dress shirt.

I've been wearing a CAP uniform since the '60s, and I've never seen so much Sturm und Drang over such a minor point about uniforms.

[Ron1319]

Ron, I really think you ought to lighten up.

I think if you go back and review all of *my* posts you'll find that they're factual, sight references, and are rather unemotional.  Again, I don't care one way or the other, I just want the manual to specify exactly what we need to do because I believe it's a lot more specific than whether or not I should tie my boots.  The manual seems to specify very clearly that tradition and what the military does are not viable reasons to wear the uniform a certain way.  Since there is obviously a significant amount of disagreement on the issue, it should be standardized.  The main reason why it needs to be standardized is that cadets especially take these things very, very seriously.  If I send my cadets off to someone else's activity one way or another and there is disagreement, they might not be able to handle it as maturely as the adults here on Captalk.

I have a certain manner of speaking which often takes some people a while to get used to.  I believe it's coming across on this forum as me being overemotional about this issue.  The only thing that got me a bit riled up was being told that it was a negative that I was a former Spaatz cadet who thinks I know everything.  I run my own business.  If I don't know the answer to everything my employees ask me, then I'm incompetent.  It's my job to know everything.  I left Intel because of the mass number of people who specialized in saying, "I'll get back to you on that," because they didn't know everything.  In that case, everything included answers to basic customer questions.  I apply the same philosophy to my job in CAP with "commander" in my title.  I see it as my job to definitively know what is correct in this situation and all I've asked of this forum is to be told how to escalate this issue or better request clarification in the supposedly impossible revision of the CAPM 39-1.

[BillB]

It seems that if 39-1 isn't specific on something, the standard USAF custom should apply. Afterall it is their uniform. To an extent, creases on a shirt are done by the cleaners. Custom, tradition or whatever, shirts have had sleeve creases since the dark ages. So what is to argue about?

[Mustang]

The manual says very clearly to only do what it says.  Since it doesn't say to, you can't.  Period.

I bet there is plenty that isn't specifically authorized that you and your cadets do. 

Do you put a piece of cardboard behind your nameplate or ribbons/badges?  Not specifically authorized. 

Do you tuck your shoe/boot laces in?  Not specifically authorized. 

Do you use shirt stays/garters?  Not specifically authorized.

Do you use epaulet shapers?  Also not specifically authorized. 

What sort of blousing bands do you use?  None are specifically authorized -- though it requires that BDU trousers be bloused over the boot, so some form of blousing band is implied.

What the manual DOES say, as others have pointed out, is that all uniforms must be kept neat, clean, pressed and in good repair.  It doesn't tell you specifically HOW to keep them clean or press them, only that you must. How each member complies with that is up to them, unless a squadron or wing policy exists.

As others have also pointed out, a crease is the natural byproduct of pressing the uniform.   Where the crease ends up lying is also up to the member.  Most people center the crease on the shoulder seam, though the natural crease location per the garment's construction is a few inches farther back.  People in some wings crease their sleeves but not the shoulder patches. Since I position the crease based on how the sleeve is constructed, not on where the shoulder seam is located, the creases generally fall aft of the shoulder patches, so they don't get creased.

Finally, as *I* have pointed out in another thread, uniform wear is not one of our congressionally mandated missions.  Incessant obsessing over uniform wear minutae does not contribute to mission accomplishment.  May I respectfully suggest you devote your energies to ridding your cadets of their desire to be perfect little tin soldiers and impart a more mission-focused mindset in them.  As anyone in the military will tell you, there's nothing worse than someone whose uniforms are always perfect, yet they're utterly incompetent at their job.

[Ron1319]

I bet there is plenty that isn't specifically authorized that you and your cadets do. 

Do you put a piece of cardboard behind your nameplate or ribbons/badges?  Not specifically authorized. 

Do you tuck your shoe/boot laces in?  Not specifically authorized. 

Do you use shirt stays/garters?  Not specifically authorized.

Do you use epaulet shapers?  Also not specifically authorized. 

What sort of blousing bands do you use?  None are specifically authorized -- though it requires that BDU trousers be bloused over the boot, so some form of blousing band is implied.

I'd just like to point out that every single one of those things is not visible.  In comparison, creased sleeves on BDU's are extremely visible and I don't buy the argument for a second that we should just tell the cadets to not worry about details of uniform wear and instead go focus on the mission.  They should be doing both.

And with that I'm officially walking away from this conversation and not going to get involved in another uniform conversation on Captalk.  All I've asked for repeatedly is for everyone to agree that the uniform manual should be updated to say specifically what and how this should be done so that everyone is standardized.  It should be really, really simple to do. 

Farewell, Uniforms & Awards section of Captalk.