CAPM 39-1 REVISIONS GAME

[Ron1319]

"Military creases" are down the front of the shirt through the pockets.  I'm still of the opinion that since it's different everywhere it should be made clear what we should do instead of all doing something different.  I think since we're never going to come to consensus that I'll go with "the manual doesn't say we can and since it says exactly how to crease the blues sleeves we can't crease the BDU sleeves."

[RiverAux]

"Military creases" are down the front of the shirt through the pockets. 

Find me a civilian that creases the sides of their sleeves (or anything, really).  If that isn't a military crease, what is?

[Patterson]

Find me a civilian that creases the sides of their sleeves (or anything, really).  If that isn't a military crease, what is?

Have you ever had a dress shirt laundered??  Unless you tell the clerk at the shop "do not press my shirt", it comes back to you pressed with creases.

[Hawk200]

I would like to definitely know whether or not we are supposed to crease BDU sleeves.  My cadets say yes and I say that since it's not specified in the uniform manual it is not allowed.

Table 2.2 in 39-1 says in regards to the BDU shirt - "Military creases are prohibited".

Military creases are prohibited on all CAP uniform shirts, not just BDUs.

For clarification, creasing the sleeves isn't a "military crease." Military creases are typically used by the Navy and Marines for thier shirts, and have a crease that runs across the pockets. Such crease also requires folding the shirt in rather unique ways to get those creases in the right place.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Like everyone has said, military creases run down the length of the shirt, in front there are two, one on each pocket, on the back there are three, one in the middle, and one evenly spaced from the two side seams and the center crease.

I have never, ever, in my life seen a dress shirt not have creases in the sleeves.

The 39-1 says pressed, not ironed. Pressing and ironing are two different things, pressing is with creases and ironing is simply knocking the wrinkles out.

From Dictionary.com

to flatten or make smooth, especially by ironing: to press clothes; to press flowers in the leaves of a book.

Creases aren't smooth.  I personally do not like the look of creased sleeves which is why I don't. If I come across someone that does crease their uniform I won't say anything because it is a gray area but in my little corner of CAP their won't be creases.

Just a joke.

I have never seen anywhere, that someone pressed their BDUs, USAF, Army, Navy, or Marines, and didn't have creases down the sleeves.

EDIT: Look at the picture of the SM wearing BDUs in the 39-1, you can clearly tell by the way the sleeve is sticking out from the arm while he is at attention that it is creased.

[Al Sayre]

Find me a civilian that creases the sides of their sleeves (or anything, really).  If that isn't a military crease, what is?

Have you ever had a dress shirt laundered??  Unless you tell the clerk at the shop "do not press my shirt", it comes back to you pressed with creases.

We used to call those from the cleaners "Summer creases" as in some're here and some're there but none are where they should be...

[Ron1319]

Obviously this is an issue.  What I'll never do unless someone writes it into the manual that I have to is send my BDU's to the cleaner's to be pressed because they will come back with rings on the pockets from the buttons being pressed into the pocket material.  I don't like that look at all.  You can see them in both pictures on page 32 here:

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M39_1_chap_2.pdf

You'll note that blues shirt sleeves appear to be creased in the front in the picture on page 29 at the above link and the epaulets are tilted to the back because of this.  For this reason, we can't really use the uniform manual photos to tell us what to do.  That's a problem.

Between pages 28 and 29, the blues shirt sleeves are creased on the front, the middle and the back.

[davidsinn]

Just a joke.

I know it's a joke. I'm just carrying on a lighthearted discussion for lack on anything more constructive to do

[SarDragon]

Obviously this is an issue.  What I'll never do unless someone writes it into the manual that I have to is send my BDU's to the cleaner's to be pressed because they will come back with rings on the pockets from the buttons being pressed into the pocket material.  I don't like that look at all.  You can see them in both pictures on page 32 here:

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M39_1_chap_2.pdf

You'll note that blues shirt sleeves appear to be creased in the front in the picture on page 29 at the above link and the epaulets are tilted to the back because of this.  For this reason, we can't really use the uniform manual photos to tell us what to do.  That's a problem.

Between pages 28 and 29, the blues shirt sleeves are creased on the front, the middle and the back.

They're not creased. That's sewing peculiar to female blouses, to get them more form fitting.

[Ron1319]

I think you're right.. I think they are all creased at the back of the epaulets.   I don't see clear evidence of sleeves being creased on BDU's in any of the pictures.

[HGjunkie]

EDIT: Disregard, misread the post.

[Smexy Lexy]

Yes Military creases(down the front of the uniform should not be there) but like the United States Air Force they crease the sleeves when not in combat since CAP is the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force and CAP is non-combatant we should crease the sleeve's on the uniform.

[davidsinn]

Yes Military creases(down the front of the uniform should not be there) but like the United States Air Force they crease the sleeves when not in combat since CAP is the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force and CAP is non-combatant we should crease the sleeve's on the uniform.

What exactly are you talking about?

[niferous]

Obviously this is an issue.  What I'll never do unless someone writes it into the manual that I have to is send my BDU's to the cleaner's to be pressed because they will come back with rings on the pockets from the buttons being pressed into the pocket material.  I don't like that look at all.

I had velcro sewn on in place of my buttons for this very reason.  Now they just velcro closed.  Easier to get in and out of anyhow.

[Ron1319]

I'm objecting to the lack of a foundation in the manuals for the argument that is OK to crease the BDU sleeves.  The uniform manual is actually 100% clear that uniform wear is to be based exactly on what it says in the uniform manual and not on tradition:

"COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY.  Any variation from this publication is not authorized." ... "This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within."

Therefore, what the military does is specifically stated as not applying or a basis for uniform wear.  It also says, "Uniforms must be clean, neat and correct in design and specifications, fitted properly,  pressed and in good condition (that is not frayed, worn out, torn, faded, patched, and so forth)"  Almost immediately upon putting that crease into the sleeve, the sleeve is faded along that crease.

The only manual based counter-argument that I see is that if you take a uniform to the dry cleaners and have it pressed it comes back with creases.  The excellence that was our standard was that the BDU uniform was not wrinkled, not creased, and did not have circles on the pockets from being ironed without unbuttoning the pockets.  This is the work that the cadet would have to do themselves with an iron in order for the uniform to look excellent.

The more I read about this and the more I read the uniform manual the more set I get in the belief that it's wrong to crease the BDUs.  Not creasing them is what we always did and I always looked down on those who did and I never bothered to really give it a second thought.  I've been just ignoring it since I rejoined CAP.  I have now formed an opinion.  Is there a better way to escalate this so that someone at National HQ will look at it and be sure that a revised 39-1 includes guidance?   I realize we'll eventually get the new uniforms, but a lot of people will still be wearing the old ones and this should be clarified one way or another to prevent the next person from having to go through what I'm going through.

[Hawk200]

Almost immediately upon putting that crease into the sleeve, the sleeve is faded along that crease.

Creasing uniform sleeves is, quite simply,  traditional in the US military. ABUs, ACUs, MARPATs, etc. are a new thing when it comes to not pressing uniforms. Before the new field uniforms, creases have been placed in shirts and pants. This, of course, has never included flightsuits. Unless it was specifically directed that it was not to be ironed or creased, you did so.

I'm a little puzzled about your vehemance concerning creasing sleeves. It's unusual. There are many things that are not spelled out in the manual that do need to be clarified, but specific directive on creasing sleeves is picking nits. Military creases are expressly forbidden, but those aren't for sleeves.

[RiverAux]

I wouldn't worry about the creasing issue as at the rate things are going we'll be well into our second set of ABUs (or whatever follows them) before they get around to revising 39-1.

[Ron1319]

I spent a long time as a cadet working very hard to understand the manuals and follow them exactly.  It was part of my basis for considering myself an excellent Spaatz cadet.  I'm a good bit older now, but I still have that same mentality when it comes to following CAP manuals.  I'm now equally baffled that people can look at the argument I wrote above and essentially say, "Well the military does it that way, it's tradition."  The manual is completely clear that we need to do exactly what it says, and that outside sources, such as military tradition, have no bearing.

Here's the problem.  If I get the squadron to agree with me and change the way that they do things, then the cadets go off to CAWG encampment and the encampment staff tells them they're wrong, everyone loses credibility.  That's why we need to be standardized, or uniform.  Why just throw our hands up in the air and say that the CAPM 39-1 is too hard to revise?

[cap235629]

I spent a long time as a cadet working very hard to understand the manuals and follow them exactly.  It was part of my basis for considering myself an excellent Spaatz cadet.  I'm a good bit older now, but I still have that same mentality when it comes to following CAP manuals.  I'm now equally baffled that people can look at the argument I wrote above and essentially say, "Well the military does it that way, it's tradition."  The manual is completely clear that we need to do exactly what it says, and that outside sources, such as military tradition, have no bearing.

Here's the problem.  If I get the squadron to agree with me and change the way that they do things, then the cadets go off to CAWG encampment and the encampment staff tells them they're wrong, everyone loses credibility.  That's why we need to be standardized, or uniform.  Why just throw our hands up in the air and say that the CAPM 39-1 is too hard to revise?

You aren't by chance related to anyone else in CAP who might live in the Chicago area are you?

   

[Hawk200]

I spent a long time as a cadet working very hard to understand the manuals and follow them exactly.  It was part of my basis for considering myself an excellent Spaatz cadet.  I'm a good bit older now, but I still have that same mentality when it comes to following CAP manuals.  I'm now equally baffled that people can look at the argument I wrote above and essentially say, "Well the military does it that way, it's tradition."  The manual is completely clear that we need to do exactly what it says, and that outside sources, such as military tradition, have no bearing.

Here's the problem.  If I get the squadron to agree with me and change the way that they do things, then the cadets go off to CAWG encampment and the encampment staff tells them they're wrong, everyone loses credibility.  That's why we need to be standardized, or uniform.  Why just throw our hands up in the air and say that the CAPM 39-1 is too hard to revise?

Creasing sleeves has been a tradition in the military for a long time. It presents a neat, sharp appearance. Always has. Doesn't really matter if they're on BDUs. You're also forgetting that military traditions, and even some military pubs do have bearing on us. If you don't think so, show me the drill manual. I think you'll find that it doesn't say "Civil Air Patrol" on it.

The manual specifically says "Military creases are prohibited." The other traditional creases are expected. Raging that "THE MANUAL DOESN'T SAY I HAVE TO!" isn't gonna change the fact that it's expected. You may be absolutely certain you're right, but it could cost you. And you wouldn't be the last cadet to be thought of as "That former Spaatz cadet that thinks he knows everything." Just food for thought.