Uniform Options

[Custer]

It was good to get them off the blue shirts (way too big a pain), bad idea to take them off the BDUs/BBDUs

It seems really bizarre to me that they change the slide on rank so that we look different from the USAF, and drop wearing the wing patch, which was ALWAYS the easiest way to tell us apart as USAF never wore patches on blues.

Incidentally - I'm in California and I can't think of any reason as a senior to have woodland BDU's.  They seem to have no purpose whatsoever.  I gave all mine away when I retired from the army and for awhile there I was regretting it - but apparently they can no longer be used for SAR activity in this state, at least not by a senior.  I can't think of any other purpose for them.

[PHall]

It was good to get them off the blue shirts (way too big a pain), bad idea to take them off the BDUs/BBDUs

It seems really bizarre to me that they change the slide on rank so that we look different from the USAF, and drop wearing the wing patch, which was ALWAYS the easiest way to tell us apart as USAF never wore patches on blues.

Incidentally - I'm in California and I can't think of any reason as a senior to have woodland BDU's.  They seem to have no purpose whatsoever.  I gave all mine away when I retired from the army and for awhile there I was regretting it - but apparently they can no longer be used for SAR activity in this state, at least not by a senior.  I can't think of any other purpose for them.

Oh, I don't know, how about something bizarre like working in Cadet Programs?

[Grumpy]

Wow, that ISbizarre Phil

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The "low-light/distance" bit is raging Bravo Sierra, because it is so vague.

ANY uniform item can be mistaken for something it's not.

But ever since the berry boards era and the Generalissimo/CSU, National is so scared of anything blue that I think they would rather clothe us all in grey/white and voluntarily give up the AF uniform.

[bosshawk]

Grumpy: you do know who Super Cadet #2 is, don't you?

[Grumpy]

You got me one that one.

[FARRIER]

But ever since the berry boards era and the Generalissimo/CSU, National is so scared of anything blue that I think they would rather clothe us all in grey/white and voluntarily give up the AF uniform.

This may get me beat up in the virtual alley, I would be willing to go back to the berry boards if it would allow us to keep the full CSU after the phase out date. I remember the complaints then that they made us look like the Salvation Army at a distance, but hind site being 20/20, our original uniform during WW II had red epauletts. But since we are losing it, stay with the gray epauletts.

[Hawk200]

Because it is a fine tradition that there was no reason to drop.

Not everyone thought so. I know many people that considered it a pain. It created a clutter that was unnecessary. No two people ironed a uniform with a patch on it in the same manner. It didn't serve any real useful purpose other than wing vanity. It was also lopside, aesthetically. Wing patches were never needed in the first place. It was a tradition with no practical purpose. Tradition without purpose is useless.

[BillB]

He whose name we do not mention did have one good idea, and changed the Florida Wing patch. His idea was for all Wings to wear the same patch, basically the Command Patch with the Wing name in an arc on the top. From 1942 to 1947, everyone wore the same patch the CAP emblem, now the overseas unit patch.
As to Wing patches having a history, I find that doubtful as so many Wings have changed the patch design over the years. Often the changes were minor depending on the company that made them. Ace Browning list five or six (haven't checked laterly) minor changes to the Florida Wing patch as an example. Or Tennessee which dropped the Tennessee Volunteer patch to change to a modified state flag design.
Big Blue didn't like the patches on their uniforms, so they were dropped. So the point is moot as to bring them back.

[arajca]

But ever since the berry boards era and the Generalissimo/CSU, National is so scared of anything blue that I think they would rather clothe us all in grey/white and voluntarily give up the AF uniform.

This may get me beat up in the virtual alley, I would be willing to go back to the berry boards if it would allow us to keep the full CSU after the phase out date. I remember the complaints then that they made us look like the Salvation Army at a distance, but hind site being 20/20, our original uniform during WW II had red epauletts. But since we are losing it, stay with the gray epauletts.

Don't go back to the berry boards. If you're going to do red - do RED, which is more historically accurate and appropriate.

[a2capt]

I only joined at the end of 2001, so that was far enough away from the berry boards to never have seen them or heard them mentioned but when I saw them at a wing conference uniform display my first thought was, "Wow, someone must have really been pissed off and wanted to make a point (when they picked that color) over whatever it was that someone did to cause them to pick that" and then I thought the whole thing was pretty demoralizing for an entire organization to have to deal with the actions of one, or a few.

[RADIOMAN015]

But ever since the berry boards era and the Generalissimo/CSU, National is so scared of anything blue that I think they would rather clothe us all in grey/white and voluntarily give up the AF uniform.

....but hind site being 20/20, our original uniform during WW II had red epauletts. But since we are losing it, stay with the gray epauletts.

Don't go back to the berry boards. If you're going to do red - do RED, which is more historically accurate and appropriate.

That's exactly what I was trying to point out (without even knowing it ) as far as a bright red color outstanding contrast on Blue. 
The same goes for Blue BDU's flight suit, same bright red (start phase out of BDU's & green flight suits now for a 3 year phase out ).

It's interesting that non affiliated organizations (mentioned on these boards before) are free to buy Army type uniforms and other types of uniforms and we don't see the US Army (or Air Force) regulating that wear of uniform by those "civilians" regardless of weight, facial hair, etc.

Again with enough "distinctiveness" it's a CIVIL AIR PATROL UNIFORM, that happens to be supplied via the AF/defense supply system.  Perhaps that should be the approach.  Make it no mistake to anyone that it is a Civil Air Patrol member in uniform and not an military member.    I still think the USAF is being too harsh with CAP civilian volunteers on weight, facial hair, and long hair standards .
RM     
   

[vmstan]

That's exactly what I was trying to point out (without even knowing it ) as far as a bright red color outstanding contrast on Blue. 
The same goes for Blue BDU's flight suit, same bright red (start phase out of BDU's & green flight suits now for a 3 year phase out ).

It's interesting that non affiliated organizations (mentioned on these boards before) are free to buy Army type uniforms and other types of uniforms and we don't see the US Army (or Air Force) regulating that wear of uniform by those "civilians" regardless of weight, facial hair, etc.

Again with enough "distinctiveness" it's a CIVIL AIR PATROL UNIFORM, that happens to be supplied via the AF/defense supply system.  Perhaps that should be the approach.  Make it no mistake to anyone that it is a Civil Air Patrol member in uniform and not an military member.    I still think the USAF is being too harsh with CAP civilian volunteers on weight, facial hair, and long hair standards .
RM     

As you pointed out, those are non-affiliated organizations.

[Custer]

....but hind site being 20/20, our original uniform during WW II had red epauletts. But since we are losing it, stay with the gray epauletts.  Don't go back to the berry boards. If you're going to do red - do RED, which is more historically accurate and appropriate.

I figured the Berry Boards were the result of some Star Trek TNG fan (Their uniforms were that color)

I for one like the red idea.  If the rank insignia, mess dress, slide on and sew on all had a red background there would be NO risk of confusion with the USAF.  There would be no need for different nametags.  It would be in keeping with CAP tradition as well as following the pattern of the other auxiliary (Coast Guard) that wears the same uniform but with the rank insignia a different color.

The only complaint I ever heard about Coast Guard Aux uniforms came from a requirement that they look MORE like the regular coast guard.  Never heard that one here!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Red looks very different with blue than with khaki.  We lost people with the berry boards.  Red would largely be seen as being forced to bend over and say "thank you sir may I have another?" in yet another effort to not piss of the AF.  That will be time for me to take my CAP retirement.  I have nearly enough time in, and I'd rather retire while we still have a connection to the Air Force, however tenuous.  No thank you sir, I will not have yet another spurious "don't rock the boat with the AF uniform change."

The "low-light/distance" restriction is not workable because it is so inexact.  Either clarify it or scrap it.  In any case, we have got to stop this self-imposed Schadenfreude about uniforms, and it is self-imposed.  National has been collectively hand-wringing ever since the berry board era and it is the membership that suffers.

The CSU was a good idea, and the Air Force initially signed off on it.  It was only later that National decided to deep-six it, because of its association with the Generalissimo.

I think it is ludicrous that we have to have grey nameplates and epaulettes.  If an E-1 who isn't educated about CAP sees a CAP member wearing "their" uniform and complains to the first shirt, who owns the problem?  The Air Force does no education about CAP in BMT, which is inexcusable.  It would take no more than reassigning about three hours from yet more dorm cleaning and underclothes folding to have an overview of AFI 10-2701, a few PowerPoints, and maybe a lecture from a CAP member as to who we are and why we wear the uniform.  This should be taken up the chain to National and hence to AETC.

Back in the berry boards era an AFRES Master Sergeant asked me, "why the (expletive) maroon shoulder marks, you guys used to have blue?"

Radioman: Give the "naive public" some credit.  Last week I was on my way home from a meeting, and I stopped at a gas station to get a bottle of pop.  The young woman cashiering read my nameplate and asked me about CAP.  It was an excellent opportunity to educate her about CAP.  Incidents like that will do a lot more to educate the "naive public" than any amount of spurious uniform changes.

The USN Sea Cadets and Army Cadets officers look a lot more like their parent services than we ever have looked like the Air Force.

Our overseas counterparts in the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand look virtually identical to their parent services with usually only a shoulder flash or cap badge to indicate a difference.

http://www.cycloneaircadets.com/photo/details.php?image_id=3818 (Canada)

This says nothing of State Defence Forces, who usually only indicate a difference with collar dogs and a slightly altered nameplate.

What I'm saying is not going to be popular.

Maybe it is indeed time for a split within CAP.

One organisation dedicated solely to SAR/DR, with no Air Force affiliation but support from state and county Emergency Management, and one dedicated largely to Cadet Programs with Air Force affiliation and support.

In the meantime, we should submit a request to keep the CSU as our permanent service dress for all ranks, with blue CAP epaulettes, blue three-line nameplate, and CAP collar dogs.

Blue BBDU's/utility jumpsuit/blue flight suit, all with navy blue backed rank.

K.I.S.S.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I figured the Berry Boards were the result of some Star Trek TNG fan (Their uniforms were that color).

Command division only.  Medical/Sciences were a nice shade of blue and Support/Engineering were gold.

I for one like the red idea.  If the rank insignia, mess dress, slide on and sew on all had a red background there would be NO risk of confusion with the USAF.  There would be no need for different nametags.  It would be in keeping with CAP tradition as well as following the pattern of the other auxiliary (Coast Guard) that wears the same uniform but with the rank insignia a different color.

There is always a risk where uneducated people are involved.

The only complaint I ever heard about Coast Guard Aux uniforms came from a requirement that they look MORE like the regular coast guard.  Never heard that one here!

CGAUX members haven't been torturing themselves at their leadership level for the past 20 years about uniforms, either.

It's stupid that we do.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I only joined at the end of 2001, so that was far enough away from the berry boards to never have seen them or heard them mentioned but when I saw them at a wing conference uniform display my first thought was, "Wow, someone must have really been pissed off and wanted to make a point (when they picked that color) over whatever it was that someone did to cause them to pick that" and then I thought the whole thing was pretty demoralizing for an entire organization to have to deal with the actions of one, or a few.

An excellent "history-in-a-nutshell" statement perfectly describing the uniform hand-wringing CAP has been doing over the past 20 years.  Some of it has come from the Air Force, but a lot of it is self-imposed based on things that National thinks will mollify the AF (like jacking the CSU).

And it's basically one bend-over and "thank you sir may I have another?" after another for the CAP membership.

[Custer]

I figured the Berry Boards were the result of some Star Trek TNG fan (Their uniforms were that color).

Command division only.  Medical/Sciences were a nice shade of blue and Support/Engineering were gold.

That's the original series, sort of.  You got (command and engineering reversed) - in TNG (the next generation) they were all maroon.  Of course, they changed their uniforms from the latter movies, which changed them from the first movie, which was different from the original tv show.  And later on Voyager was different too.  I think I know who they hired as a a consultant...

Debates and discussions are fun - but seriously, all I ask is that they pick something and stick with it.  In a volunteer part time organization uniforms are not going to wear out quickly and I wonder how many white & ultramarine polo shirts, Guyaberra shirts, Smurf suits, orange flight suits & so forth are molding away in footlockers now.  I'm good with whatever they want, and I'm HAPPY about the moratorium on changing anything.

And its not just national = CAWG had its own polo shirt uniform until this last supplement came out when it just vanished.  No wear out date or anything, it just went poof.

[wuzafuzz]

But ever since the berry boards era and the Generalissimo/CSU, National is so scared of anything blue that I think they would rather clothe us all in grey/white and voluntarily give up the AF uniform.

This may get me beat up in the virtual alley, I would be willing to go back to the berry boards if it would allow us to keep the full CSU after the phase out date. I remember the complaints then that they made us look like the Salvation Army at a distance, but hind site being 20/20, our original uniform during WW II had red epauletts. But since we are losing it, stay with the gray epauletts.

Don't go back to the berry boards. If you're going to do red - do RED, which is more historically accurate and appropriate.

Except in California, where ground and UDF team members will be authorized ORANGE epaulets.  But only while wearing their dress uniforms in the field.  Bwaaahahahaahaaaaaa!!!!   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Debates and discussions are fun - but seriously, all I ask is that they pick something and stick with it.  In a volunteer part time organization uniforms are not going to wear out quickly and I wonder how many white & ultramarine polo shirts, Guyaberra shirts, Smurf suits, orange flight suits & so forth are molding away in footlockers now.  I'm good with whatever they want, and I'm HAPPY about the moratorium on changing anything.

Check your PM.

They're fun as long as people don't start insulting one another.  Then it gets stupid.

I was not sorry to see the Smurf suit go, but I think the orange flight suit served a purpose.

I think all the changes go back to what I've said before - an almost neurotic need on the part of NHQ since around 1990 to show the AF we're not trying to ape them, and it's not needed.

I just don't understand the fixation with grey.  It's not aviation related, doesn't have a place in CAP history that I know of, and frankly the grey/white is not slimming for heavier individuals.

I still operate on the K.I.S.S. principle.

A proposal, using existing items:

Use blue Cadet officer epaulettes with small(ish) metal rank for shirts (plain for SMWOG).

Use plain black shoulder boards (like AF Academy) with metal rank affixed for service dress (plain for SMWOG).

Blue three-line nameplate for all.