New CAWG Ground Team & UDF Uniform

[a2capt]

Dealing with politics and power trippers back in the day, it took nearly three years to get UDF qualified.

Heck, I had the commander refuse to push ahead my 101 card request for mission observer because "the IC didn't sign off the blocks", he, being a ground pounder, was sure the IC had to do it.

... even though the training took place in the aircraft, away from the IC, under the supervision and authority of the mission pilot.

Go figure. ;-)

Yeah, lots of reasons why there are so few GTL/GTM's on the books.

[tdepp]

Besides, we already have the golden bear on the wing patch. 

SarDragon:
Personally, I think the California State flag is awesomely cool.    And on a completely unrelated note, with the exception of the Los Angeles metro area, I'm one Midwesterner who thinks California is perhaps America's most diversely beautiful state with the best weather in the USA.  I understand why people wanted to settle there and still want to move there.  I'm not a Cali Hater.  I just wish you'd import some of your nice winter weather to SoDak in January and February when it's -30 here. 

[N Harmon]

But alas, they're not asking our members to wear the Golden Bear Flag patch.  They're asking us to wear orange.  We already have orange vests.  And NHQ approves the limited wear of the California Distinctive SAR Shirt or whatever the hail it is called.  So, not even close to the same scenario.  Consider your strawman sufficiently burned up.    Now move along, nothing to see here.

A strawman is an argument, whereas I asked a hypothetical question. But don't let me stop you from exercising your logic vocabulary. The question was to what extent should states dictate what the CAP uniform is, and all you did was dodge it.

Personally? Blue shirt or orange shirt...doesn't matter to me. But don't give me BS about it being for "safety" or "security".

[tdepp]

^ If you think a client, i.e., California, wanting our GTMs to wear a certain shirt is "dictating," fine.  But it wasn't without NHQ approval.  What our client wants us to do in this case isn't crazy, insane, disgraceful, unsafe, or even a terrible fashion statement.  They had what they thought were good reasons.  Sounds like this all went through proper channels.  Unless you think every other state is going to want some silly thing for our uniforms, please enlighten me as to what the actual problem is that we're arguing about? 

From previous postings on this thread, the bigger problem sounds like a lack of numbers for trained GTMs in California, given its large size, population, and large number of commercial, business, and general aviation interests and participants.  That's something more important to worry about and fix (if indeed it needs fixing) than what shirt they wear while looking for people and aircraft.

CAPTalk: Where every issue is eventually about uniforms. 

[heliodoc]

^^^

You are correct, Sir!!


Uniforms is the "POWER" behind the CAP SAR eerrrrr search and locate program.

Yes CAPTalk lowers itself to uniform discussion every time it can.....

Just THINK of the energy one could harness out of these folks...they could be  CAP Superheros and really make a program go.....

If CA WG has that low of numbers for that great of an area.........well plenty of us can get that picture.

Hey, CAP!!  How about a new uniform altogether?  ONE service uniform of a civilian color and is selected for ALLLLL CAP volunteers

Uniform geeeks....sheesh!

[davidsinn]

^^^

You are correct, Sir!!


Uniforms is the "POWER" behind the CAP SAR eerrrrr search and locate program.

Yes CAPTalk lowers itself to uniform discussion every time it can.....

Just THINK of the energy one could harness out of these folks...they could be  CAP Superheros and really make a program go.....

If CA WG has that low of numbers for that great of an area.........well plenty of us can get that picture.

Hey, CAP!!  How about a new uniform altogether?  ONE service uniform of a civilian color and is selected for ALLLLL CAP volunteers

Uniform geeeks....sheesh!

I'm really tired of you. If you don't like it leave. You are on the uniform portion of the board in a thread about a specific uniform. What do you expect to read about? This thread was actually turning from uniforms to ops for a change.

[heliodoc]

^^

Tired?  Sorrry you feel that way..

Look at the real thread.....CAPers complaining about a customers (CAL EMA) decision about how THEY do things and then CAPers chirp about it.

Turning from a uniform to ops thread......that IS debatable!!  If it is CAL EMA decision...then ALL CAPers just best stand by the decision or STAY home!!

I'm not leaving anytime soon....dropped 110 dinero for the "pleasure" of serving in CAP for 2 more years.

"I'm really tired of you"  Is that supposed to chase me away from the board.  Some folks on CAPTalk ARE pretty sensitive, aren't they??

[a2capt]

..and I'm not convinced it's CAL EMA saying "if you don't, we won't".


You know how asinine that would look? More so than this entire thread. ;-)


While there may be great logic behind it, to say it's just the tip of the iceberg in examples of hoops and hurdles that there seem to be a great many of in this particular wing. 


So much so that .. as someone else pointed out, the numbers show it.

[RiverAux]

^ If you think a client, i.e., California, wanting our GTMs to wear a certain shirt is "dictating," fine.  But it wasn't without NHQ approval. 

I don't think anyone has said that they're doing something outside of CAP regulations.   

[PHall]

^^

Tired?  Sorrry you feel that way..

Look at the real thread.....CAPers complaining about a customers (CAL EMA) decision about how THEY do things and then CAPers chirp about it.

Turning from a uniform to ops thread......that IS debatable!!  If it is CAL EMA decision...then ALL CAPers just best stand by the decision or STAY home!!

I'm not leaving anytime soon....dropped 110 dinero for the "pleasure" of serving in CAP for 2 more years.

"I'm really tired of you"  Is that supposed to chase me away from the board.  Some folks on CAPTalk ARE pretty sensitive, aren't they??

I'm tired of you because you NEVER miss a chance to bring CAP down.

Frankly, you've become boring.

[heliodoc]

Why, thank you PHall,

For the kind CAP comraderie (sp) shared on this site.

It's a very warm feeling.............

[isuhawkeye]

I am hesitant to get involved in this thread, but I was reading a post from a blog that I follow, and the authors views are pertinent to the question of how SAR teams treat each other based upon the clothes that they wear.  I do not have an opinion on this issue.  I simply wanted to share an outsiders perspective.

I will caution that the authors, and commenters of this site sometimes take a salty approach to their tone.

http://www.deathvalleymag.com/2010/04/21/tactical-gear-the-"sar-operator"-does-tactical-gear-have-a-place-in-search-rescue/

[Rotorhead]

I'm not leaving anytime soon....dropped 110 dinero for the "pleasure" of serving in CAP for 2 more years.

Why would you spend the money on something you clearly don't like?

You never miss a chance to bash the organization, warranted or not.

Cut your losses. If CAP distresses you so much that you need to complain about it incessantly, then you may as well get out.

[heliodoc]

Great reference, isuhawkeye!

Good point of view and it does get to the point of toning it down.

Oh and Mr Orr... I am here some of the  operational nature, helping CAP understand the FEMA / ICS stuff cuz CAP "invented it" and seems to misinterpret some things and since I am former EM type in both operations and grant world..... I can assit in that.

I am also here for the "free" flying when I can afford and when all the GOB's don't have the airplanes all in use or complaining that the aircraft do not get used enough......

[ZigZag911]

Iusahawkeye raises an interesting point; camo is definitely not the ideal for SAR work, for various reasons (visibility, the 'fear factor' it may inspire in victims or innocent bystanders).

I still think the orange get up is silly, whether it's CA EMA or PA WG Hawk Mtn types advocating it...studies have demonstrated, after all, that a bright yellow is probably the most visible color under almost any circumstances.

[lordmonar]

Okay...

First.....if CAL OES wants us in the orange shirts...fine.  I think however that the "requirment" aspect may be over stated.  I did a web search for Cal SAR organisations and I found several that do not wear the orange shirts (but there are many that do).

Second....on the larger issue of the appropriate uniform for any SAR agency....yes camo is not very helpful....but there are many other issues on top of that that make a shirt or an orange vest useless.

When I go out on GSAR I don't wear an orange vest...I have an orange vest that I put over my pack.

Third....the issue about uniformity.  This is and always has been a pet peeve with me about CAP uniforms.  What ever the uniform chosen...it must be THE UNIFORM...everyone must be in it or you don't play.  This CAWG ES uniform only confuses the issue even more.  When CAWG goes out of state some of them are going to be in the orange shirt....do we let them play?  Also will CAWG let anyone outside of the state play?

I would like to see these issues resolved in some sort of regional publication so us PCR'ers can plan accordingly.

[PHall]

Okay...

First.....if CAL OES wants us in the orange shirts...fine.  I think however that the "requirment" aspect may be over stated.  I did a web search for Cal SAR organisations and I found several that do not wear the orange shirts (but there are many that do).

Second....on the larger issue of the appropriate uniform for any SAR agency....yes camo is not very helpful....but there are many other issues on top of that that make a shirt or an orange vest useless.

When I go out on GSAR I don't wear an orange vest...I have an orange vest that I put over my pack.

Third....the issue about uniformity.  This is and always has been a pet peeve with me about CAP uniforms.  What ever the uniform chosen...it must be THE UNIFORM...everyone must be in it or you don't play.  This CAWG ES uniform only confuses the issue even more.  When CAWG goes out of state some of them are going to be in the orange shirt....do we let them play?  Also will CAWG let anyone outside of the state play?

I would like to see these issues resolved in some sort of regional publication so us PCR'ers can plan accordingly.

Well let's see Pat. I do believe that more then a couple NVWG personnel have participated in CAWG missions.
And I believe that CAWG personnel have participated in NVWG missions too.

So what's the problem?

[lordmonar]

The problem is that now CAWG has a new uniform.

I asked it before....is this uniform required or is it optional.

If it is required....will neighboring wings have to wear it to play?

If CAWG comes to NVWG to will they be allowed to wear it?

Right NOW this instant there is no guidance.  Hence my wish for regional guidance.

[RiverAux]

The supplement says it is required.  It used to be optional under the old supplement. 

[a2capt]

It is the policy of CAWG that the CAWG GT Uniform shall be worn by all members actively participating as a member of a Ground Team (training or actual).


It is the policy of CAWG that members participating in UDF team operations shall wear one of the following uniform combinations.


(1) CAWG Ground Team Uniform
(2) CAP polo shirt/grey pants corporate uniform
(3) CAP Blue Field uniform
(4) Cadets may wear BDU Uniform.


Note: If CAP Blue Field Uniform or BDU Uniform is worn, wear of an orange safety vest is MANDATORY and must be worn at all times while in the field

It also only mentions BDUs with respect to cadets. Otherwise it's orange, corporate casual or BBDU, and only orange reflector if *BDU. If you choose to stick to only UDF, you can use the orange reflector solution. But if you wish to do GT then you really need both anyway as you can only use the CAWG GT uniform when actually on the task, that is. After being launched only, and when you return to the base you're supposed to change. If you do it right, since one is tucked in, and the other is not, you could just put the BDU top over it. With a little creative ironing of the creases near the lapel area nothing will show but the t-shirt under all of it.


...and it goes back to, they wonder why they have a participation problem now?


Hoops and Hurdles.


So, when we do an activity with a bunch of cadets, are we in violation if we don't have a pile of those things? We do have a fair amount of reflective belts for PT.. but they are fluorescent yellow... 


Ya know, that NVWG unit in California may just be onto something .. ;-)