New CAWG Ground Team & UDF Uniform

[Ned]

Does the CA National Guard wear orange shirts when they go out? Other than the fire fighters, I doubt it. So what's the difference.

Actually, yes they and their AD counterparts do, when they are in the field firefighting.  The support folks wear their ACU/BDU shirts.

Thanks for asking.

[Hawk200]

Actually, yes they and their AD counterparts do, when they are in the field firefighting.  The support folks wear their ACU/BDU shirts.

Actual orange shirts? I've seen the yellow Nomex ones (worn with green pants), but I don't think I've seen one in orange.

[Ned]

^ You're right.  I was issued a yellow nomex shirt, not an orange one.

My bad.

[PA Guy]

Does the CA National Guard wear orange shirts when they go out? Other than the fire fighters, I doubt it. So what's the difference.

When deployed to the fireline CAARNG personnel wear the wildland firefighting ensemble from hard hat to boots. That includes the high visibility shirt.

[RiverAux]

Does the CA National Guard wear orange shirts when they go out? Other than the fire fighters, I doubt it. So what's the difference.

When deployed to the fireline CAARNG personnel wear the wildland firefighting ensemble from hard hat to boots. That includes the high visibility shirt.

You guys are misunderstanding his sentence -- he is asking if they are forced to wear orange shirts when doing stuff OTHER THAN FIREFIGHTING when on state missions. 

[PA Guy]

...
With the current "solution" (to a problem that did not exist) being limited to field use only, in specific duty positions, it's certainly not an aid in rapid and flexible deployment/utilization of your assets.
...

Precisely.  I've had SEVERAL missions over the years that started during other activities.  This would be like "Alright! Everyone go home and change!" instead of just being able to up and go.

They will do what anyone with commonsense would do. They will commence the mission and the wardrobe will catch up when it can.  Really!!  They aren't going to delay the mission over something so trivial.

[PA Guy]

You guys are misunderstanding his sentence -- he is asking if they are forced to wear orange shirts when doing stuff OTHER THAN FIREFIGHTING when on state missions.

The CAARNG doesn't perform ground SAR missions assigned by CA OES so no.  NG aviation assets are often requested

[majdomke]

OK, I realize this topic has been inactive for a little while but I wanted to vent and get feedback from my fellow CAP'ers.
My first issue with this new reg is that it was published Apr '10 and members had a whopping 120 days to buy a totally different and complete uniform then they are accustomed to wearing. I imagine you could use your existing belt, boots and t-shirt but the pants and shirt are new to anyone who wears the BDU uniform. It's not just a special shirt but one not available at Vanguard or our normal vendor sites since it's so unusual and very specific to the SAR field. Now that we've found one of these weird shirts, we now need to get everything sewn on again, except for our grade insignia which apparently no longer matters when performing ES mission in CA. So, when NHQ issues yet another ICL regarding the 39-1, they at least have the decency of giving members 1-2 years to phase it in. Even the switch over from "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tapes to "Civil Air Patrol" tapes was given two whole years. And these are only $3 items. From reading the reg is states that CAL EMA "suggested" so why the heck are we mandating this uniform for ALL ES TRAINING AND MISSIONS? It seems that for those who want to work with CAL EMA, that they can wear something that makes them happy but why should the rest of the entire wing have to change out its uniform? Not to mention the crazy rules about when I can and can't wear it. We basically have to arrive in one uniform and then change into this uniform once in the field. So much for CPPT when I need to change in front of my cadets. Oh but wait, you only need to change out your shirt to the BBDU one which is again another added expense for those of us, probably 90% of the entire wing, who don't own or wear them. And to top all this of, and this is what kills me as a DCC, I'm supposed to tell my cadets they ALL need to go out and buy this new uniform because it's mandatory for cadets who train or participate in ground team activities. Good luck getting that by all the parent. No to mention what a wonderful deterrent this is to recruiting. New recruit walks in, learns all about CAP but then finds out they have to wear something like this just to train in something there's a good chance they'll never get to use. They join because the things we do and how we look. The BDU is a major draw to new recruits. This will be a major reason they don't join or leave the program because they don't want to buy it or be caught dead wearing it.

This is of course my unadulterated personal opinion and does not reflect the opinion of my commanders, etc... but all you have to do it explain this to them and the cadets and you get tons of puzzled faces and lots of "What the..." coming out of their mouths. Since we can do nothing but complain... here it is. There has got to be a way to get this recruitment killer cancelled or used only for CAL EMA missions. That's all I'll say for now and I'm interested in your thoughts. Is there a way to lodge a complaint and get it killed? I know everyone I've talked to about it thinks its ridiculous except those who helped design and implement it. I've now got 28 cadets, that's an increase of 20 cadets in the one year since we started, all of whom are no longer interested in training in the Ground Team specialty or wearing this uniform. Thanks!

[Eclipse]

You bumped a year old topic here, and denecro'ed a 3-year old one on CS.

What changed today that hasn't been in force since last year that has your thong bunched?

[dbaran]

Speaking from practical experience, I think the orange shirt makes a lot of sense.  Camo BDUs are just insanely silly for walking around in the middle of the night looking for an ELT.  The blue BDUs make you look like a K9 officer (leading to "Is your dog in the car?" questions) .  The orange shirt looks much more like what local law enforcement expects for a SAR team.

Personally, I had not gone and done the orange shirt thing myself just out of simple laziness about sewing stuff on.  But on an ELT search this past Saturday night in the People's Republic of Santa Cruz, I came to the conclusion that orange makes a lot more sense because it is less threatening to the locals, and obviously less suspicious when you're nosing around a boat yard at 2am looking for a renegade EPIRB.

The orange shirt is something that we were asked to do by the CA emergency management agency so we looked more uniform with THEIR people.  I didn't have anything to do with the rule (other than lampoon it at Group meetings because it is absurdly complicated due to some people in high places in other regions that didn't want it to be considered a CAP uniform).    I know the smart people who worked hard on this, why they did it (to make CALEMA happy because we need the business), and that the end result was the best thing  that could be worked out between the desire of the State of CA and the insanity of CAP uniforms.

I will also point out that EVERY SAR mission in CA is a CALEMA mission:  we get a mission number from AFRCC AND one from them, as they are delegating their search authority/responsibility to CAP.   Our ICs have to follow their rules.

If you're in CAP for the uniforms, please stay out of ES.  We need people who want to help those in need as the first priority and are willing to work together with other agencies (including dressing the way they expect), and if it's more important to you to look cool ... feel free to remain focused entirely on AE and CP. 

[RVT]

I'm supposed to tell my cadets they ALL need to go out and buy this new uniform because it's mandatory for cadets who train or participate in ground team activities. Good luck getting that by all the parent. No to mention what a wonderful deterrent this is to recruiting.  I've now got 28 cadets, that's an increase of 20 cadets in the one year since we started, all of whom are no longer interested in training in the Ground Team specialty or wearing this uniform. Thanks!

SENIORS may no longer wear BDU for ground team or UDF operations.  CADETS STILL CAN.

What I wear to and from the search base, and "while in an out of service status" is going to be the same thing I am wearing while conducting the search.  CAWG 39-1 would have me change into and out of this outfit 4 or 6 times a day and thats not going to happen.  I'm not even going to procure one of these uniforms until that stipulation is taken out - or I am assured that just like with the flight suit rule, everybody is going to ignore it.

[cap235629]

I'm supposed to tell my cadets they ALL need to go out and buy this new uniform because it's mandatory for cadets who train or participate in ground team activities. Good luck getting that by all the parent. No to mention what a wonderful deterrent this is to recruiting.  I've now got 28 cadets, that's an increase of 20 cadets in the one year since we started, all of whom are no longer interested in training in the Ground Team specialty or wearing this uniform. Thanks!

SENIORS may no longer wear BDU for ground team or UDF operations.  CADETS STILL CAN.

What I wear to and from the search base, and "while in an out of service status" is going to be the same thing I am wearing while conducting the search.  CAWG 39-1 would have me change into and out of this outfit 4 or 6 times a day and thats not going to happen.  I'm not even going to procure one of these uniforms until that stipulation is taken out - or I am assured that just like with the flight suit rule, everybody is going to ignore it.

The supplement says that cadets can wear BDU's on UDF it does not say that cadets can wear BDU's forr other ground team functions

[majdomke]

If you're in CAP for the uniforms, please stay out of ES.  We need people who want to help those in need as the first priority and are willing to work together with other agencies (including dressing the way they expect), and if it's more important to you to look cool ... feel free to remain focused entirely on AE and CP.

Nice attitude... So, don't particpate in one of CAP's three missions huh? Yeah, I don't seem to find that in the 52-16 where I'm to now stop working with ES in my cadet program because they can't afford a uniform. I also don't recall anything about saying I wanted to look "cool". I did say cadets join because they like the BDU's.

[majdomke]

You bumped a year old topic here, and denecro'ed a 3-year old one on CS.

What changed today that hasn't been in force since last year that has your thong bunched?

Sorry Eclipse... I was trying not to get into specifics but I was in the hospital last year from Jan-Aug fighting cancer. After coming back and reading this new reg that gave next to no time to adapt, I got a little annoyed. Through my own misunderstanding of how it read, I thought the cadets had the option for GT work but I was reading the UDF portion. I'm still having a bugger of a time finding the darn shirt that can't be florescent. What I find are shirts that are orange but country western looking, have brown buttons which don't seem to match what is shown in the photos, or just plain out of stock. I've got everything else ready to go and just need an XL shirt that fits the regs then sew all my stuff on. I'm just annoyed that it was mandated wing wide with very little time to adapt. At least let us wear the BDU's w/vest for training. I can understand Cal EMA wanting them for actual missions, even-though the letter from Wing says they "suggested" it. But at least let us do our training and get cadets excited about the ES side of CAP. I personally know several cadets up here in NorCal who are seriously into ES and have adopted the new uniform. I'm glad for them and that they found something within CAP that keeps them going. I'm just saying the rest of the cadets should be allowed to at least train and then buy the uniform if they decide to get their GTM qualifications and participate in actual missions. Does that make sense?

Respectfully,

[majdomke]

Speaking from practical experience, I think the orange shirt makes a lot of sense.  Camo BDUs are just insanely silly for walking around in the middle of the night looking for an ELT.  The blue BDUs make you look like a K9 officer (leading to "Is your dog in the car?" questions) .  The orange shirt looks much more like what local law enforcement expects for a SAR team.

Have you seen a ground team in BDU's with the newly mandated vest yet? Pretty reflective and not hard to see us at all. They are the same at night and since they are actually reflective, are more visible than just an orange shirt.

[Eclipse]

Not exactly "newly mandated" - a vest has been required forever and most people with a clue wore won that was retro-reflective.

I agree, though, that the whole issue in CAWG is a colossal waste of time, but even at that, this is not a gateway to training - you can "learn" to do things
in blues. 

[Spaceman3750]

Speaking from practical experience, I think the orange shirt makes a lot of sense.  Camo BDUs are just insanely silly for walking around in the middle of the night looking for an ELT.  The blue BDUs make you look like a K9 officer (leading to "Is your dog in the car?" questions) .  The orange shirt looks much more like what local law enforcement expects for a SAR team.

Have you seen a ground team in BDU's with the newly mandated vest yet? Pretty reflective and not hard to see us at all. They are the same at night and since they are actually reflective, are more visible than just an orange shirt.

Don't worry, starting in October 2012 all GT operations will require an ANSI II-compliant vest, so you'll get to wear one of those over your orange shirt .

[majdomke]

That's what I was talking about Eclipse. There is a new vest we are mandated to wear by next Oct. We always wore the orange vest. The new one is much better with reflective stripes and yellow so we can be seen on the flightline too. See the pic I posted as reference.

[majdomke]

Speaking from practical experience, I think the orange shirt makes a lot of sense.  Camo BDUs are just insanely silly for walking around in the middle of the night looking for an ELT.  The blue BDUs make you look like a K9 officer (leading to "Is your dog in the car?" questions) .  The orange shirt looks much more like what local law enforcement expects for a SAR team.

Have you seen a ground team in BDU's with the newly mandated vest yet? Pretty reflective and not hard to see us at all. They are the same at night and since they are actually reflective, are more visible than just an orange shirt.

Don't worry, starting in October 2012 all GT operations will require an ANSI II-compliant vest, so you'll get to wear one of those over your orange shirt .

I know

[RVT]

I'm still having a bugger of a time finding the darn shirt that can't be florescent. What I find are shirts that are orange but country western looking, have brown buttons which don't seem to match what is shown in the photos, or just plain out of stock.

http://sq45.cawg.cap.gov/Uniform/CAWG_GTuniform.html