Chain of Command?

[Crash]

I have a question for those of you that have been around in CAP for a while.  You know who you are 

In regards to the chain of command, if you disagree with a command or decision made by your immediate command superior and wish to take your issue to the next level - up the chain of command - is this permissible?

If so, do you have to let the immediate command personnel know that you are taking your issue to the next level - and does one have to get that command officer's permission to do so?

Is there a CAP regulation or policy that governs this action?  I have searched the knowledge base and can't seem to find any reference.  Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

[lordmonar]

Yes....if you have questions about your orders you take them up the chain of command to resolve those questions.

No...you don't have to tell your commander or ask his permission before you go up the chain of command. However, it is considered proper to take the issue to the lowest level first before moving up.  Give the person at your level a chance to fix the problem.

There is no regulation...this is just standard operating procedure for any organisation with a top down chain of command.

There is also always the IG option.

[JoeTomasone]

In regards to the chain of command, if you disagree with a command or decision made by your immediate command superior and wish to take your issue to the next level - up the chain of command - is this permissible?

Yes, a complaint against your commander should be taken in writing directly to the next higher echelon's commander.

If so, do you have to let the immediate command personnel know that you are taking your issue to the next level - and does one have to get that command officer's permission to do so?

No.

Is there a CAP regulation or policy that governs this action?  I have searched the knowledge base and can't seem to find any reference.  Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

CAPR 123-2.

[RiverAux]

I don't think the official complaint process is what you would use if you just disagreed with a decision unless the decision violated some CAP regulation. 

[EMT-83]

I'm not sure of what you would expect to gain. Your commander certainly doesn't need your approval when making decisions. Unless there is a safety issue or clear violation of a specific regulation, suck it up. Or, as people here write on a regular basis, salute and execute.

I don't agree with every decision made by my commander. Sometimes we'll discuss the issue, and he might even change his mind. If not, well, he's the boss.

[LtCol057]

And whatever you do, don't get the attitude that because you're a volunteer, you don't have to follow the rules, regulations and orders from your commanders. 

[Major Lord]

When I was a CD-C, my Squadron Commander overrode my decision not to promote a Cadet who had not attended meetings, completed all requisites, and had committed a number of heinous crimes ( Sewed on a E-Services "Pluto" path without even having completed GES and similar atrocities) My SQ Commander caved to the little-league Dad, and not only promoted the lad, but made the promotion retroactive. I told him then and there that I would take the disagreement to the next level. He was sure he was right on the regs and had the leeway to do such a thing, and I was convinced that he was not, so it did not cause bad blood between us. I can't see going over your commanders head without the courtesy of an explanation and a good-faith attempt to resolve the problem first.... Unless perhaps he is sending pictures of the flightline to the Taliban or something similar.

Major Lord
ps; I was right-he was wrong

[ßτε]

Read this, especially paragraph two.

http://www.capmembers.com/cap_national_hq/inspector_general/complaints.cfm

[RADIOMAN015]

And whatever you do, don't get the attitude that because you're a volunteer, you don't have to follow the rules, regulations and orders from your commanders.

I think it is imporant for "Commanders (aka Volunteer Team Leaders (VTL) sounds better & is the 'reality") to "sell" their decisions to their squadron senior membership.  When a commander (VTL) starts cramming down too many unpopular decisions to the local membership, he/she should be prepared to become "an army of one", because most adults aren't interested in playing make believe military, in CAP fantasy world of autocratic leadership, and can easily find other volunteer opportunities to spend their time, talent,  & treasure on.
RM     

[Rotorhead]

Honestly, Radioman, if you dislike CAP so much, why are you still a member?

[Spike]

The Commanders at all levels (Squadron, Group, Wing etc) should be publishing Policy Letters that outline what to do.  A "good Commander" would sit down and write an "open door policy letter". 

That is how most of the military works, and from where I have been in CAP seen as well.

Now, you do not have to tell your immediate superior you are going over his head, but the courteous thing to do would be to tell him or her that you will be using the "open door" system, so that it is not a surprise to your superior.  Usually that may clear up issues right then.   

[RADIOMAN015]

Honestly, Radioman, if you dislike CAP so much, why are you still a member?

I love punishment   Actually I'm just trying to bring folks back into the 'reality" of what a volunteer is and how a volunteer should be treated  -- pure in simple.  Commanders' do need to sell their ideas with gentle persuasion,  most adults in CAP will listen to an objective, reasonable explanation of  why we need to do it a particular way or not do something.  HOWEVER, my observation is sometimes the organization as a whole wounds itself due to some big egos that will not comprise in any situation, even though a compromise would work best for the organization as a whole.

Actually, I try to do my best when involved with CAP activities (primarily in radio communications, with some ES activity) and try to volunteer for activities that I am comfortable with (and that is the best you can expect from any non paid volunteer in any volunteer organization).  I've gotten some recognition  at the squaron, wng, & region level for my efforts.    I have no personal vendettas against anyone in CAP BUT do wonder where as a whole this organization is headed long term wise, 5 to 10 years out
RM 

[flyguy06]

Every good commander should have an open door policy whereby any member should feel comfortable going into and talking with that commander. Yes, if you are going to for example the Group CC about an issue, you should have at least first tried to resolve it with your squadron CC. If you aren't satisfied with the Squadron CC's answer, tell him in a respectful manner that you want to see the Group CC. A good Squadron CC will accommodate the request and not try to stop you. The important thing is not to do anything behind his back, that creates dishonesty and sneakiness and all sorts of issues. You don't need his permission, but you do need to give himthe courteous of lettinghim know you are going to a higher echelon.

As for the IG, Aren't IG complaints supposed to be centered around fraud, waste, and abuse? Not common "I don't like what my commander said so I am going to tell" type of issues?

[Rotorhead]

Honestly, Radioman, if you dislike CAP so much, why are you still a member?

I love punishment   Actually I'm just trying to bring folks back into the 'reality" of what a volunteer is and how a volunteer should be treated

...in your opinion.

[flyguy06]

The whole thing about being a volunteer that I think a lot of people misunderstand is you still have a responsibility. We are professional volunteers. There is a difference.

We have certain expectations put upon us that we must meet. We are part of an organization. we cant jst come and go as we please. If we are truly part of an organization, we must be organized. Its not about us as indivisuals. its aout us as a collective.

I am in a Fraternity which is a 501(c)3 org. If I show up to a meeting impropperly dressed. eventhough it is volunteer and i dont get paid, I will be asked to leave. I pledged to folow the rules and regs of my organization and I musty follow suit.

Samthing with CAP.

[FW]

We are not professional volunteers; we are professionals who volunteer their time.  Big Difference...

Now, that being said.  I agree we must meet certain expectations to participate fully in CAP.  However, for a CAP commander to be effective, there must be "buy in" by those who agree to follow.  There is nothing for a commander to do other than motivate their followers to buy in to the process.  Yes, we must feel we are part of the team.  If a volunteer feels no true connection; the volunteer will leave.  A leader understands this and will act accordingly.  A leader who doesn't will fail.  It's actually a simple point to master but, for some reason, many who accept a leadership position can't figure this out.  When a leader resorts to "it's my way or else", most will chose "or else".   Even our mothers don't get much success when they say "because I said so..."

Just my $.02; YMMV

[EMT-83]

Which has nothing to do with the original post.

Yes, certain management styles work better than others when dealing with volunteers. But you still better have a pretty good reason to leave boot prints on your commander's forehead.

[JoeTomasone]

We are not professional volunteers; we are professionals who volunteer their time.  Big Difference...

Now, that being said.  I agree we must meet certain expectations to participate fully in CAP.  However, for a CAP commander to be effective, there must be "buy in" by those who agree to follow.  There is nothing for a commander to do other than motivate their followers to buy in to the process.  Yes, we must feel we are part of the team.  If a volunteer feels no true connection; the volunteer will leave.  A leader understands this and will act accordingly.  A leader who doesn't will fail.  It's actually a simple point to master but, for some reason, many who accept a leadership position can't figure this out.  When a leader resorts to "it's my way or else", most will chose "or else".   Even our mothers don't get much success when they say "because I said so..."

Just my $.02; YMMV

+1.

I've been a leader in non-military style volunteer organizations and you absolutely need to have leadership and consensus building skills to be successful. 

[EMT-83]

... which still has nothing to do with the chain of command.

[FW]

Which has nothing to do with the original post.

Yes, certain management styles work better than others when dealing with volunteers. But you still better have a pretty good reason to leave boot prints on your commander's forehead.

OK, yes; you are correct however, the flow of this thread has changed. 

There is never a good reason to "leave boot prints" on your commander's forehead.  In CAP, it is allowed to question your commander's thoughts IF there is a question on performing your duty correctly.  As a leader, you can not assume your followers understand what you're talking about.  In fact, in a volunteer organization, it could be a fatal flaw. 

To answer the original question:
Yes, it is permissible.  You should keep your immediate commander informed of your choice but, do not need permission.  You have the right to take it as high as you wish however, if you keep getting the same answer to your concerns after  1 or 2 attempts, it would be wise to stop.

We like to keep things local in CAP.  It's always wise to discuss, in private (one on one), concerns with command decisions.  There is little we do which is life threatening.  Our main concerns are to serve and carry out the 3 missions asked of us in our charter.  As a volunteer, you have signed up to do this.  As a follower, you have agreed to obey the direction of your leaders.  BUT, as a volunteer, there is nothing keeping you in CAP except for your personal reasons.  Most volunteers stay because they feel accepted, a sense of accomplishment and, meaning to their continued membership.  Leaders have an obligation to nurture that feeling.