Hawk Mountain Ranger School

[Ranger Staff]

Post Note: the Hawk path can be worn only on the right hand chest pocket. Only PAWG can wear them in place of the wing patch.

Not true. The National Board allowed for the following patches to be worn in place of a Wing patch:

- National Emergency Services Academy
- National Flight Academy
- Cadet Officer School
- National Honor Guard Academy
- Hawk Mountain Ranger School
- Blue Beret
- Air Force Space Command Familiarization Course
- Pararescue Orientation Course

Florida Wing sent out a policy letter last year specifically stating as such, and other Wings have probably done the same. So, it isn't just a PAWG policy.

Missing my point there. The Hawk patch can only be worn on the chest pocket, except in PA where it can also be worn in the WG place. Not saying nothing else can be worn in the WG place.

[Ranger Staff]

So, other than bashing on Hawk Mountain about uniforms, does anyone have any other real questions? I'm just spitballing, but I'm pretty sure that's the purpose of this thread, for cadets to get an idea of what to expect.

[sarmed1]

so then how does the Hawk Mountain staff justify their use?

The same way most people in CAP with a wrong uniform do (as I have got in the past when I used to question seniors about uniform issues)....... "My commander told me I could" (suprisingly most dont say thanks for the help, I didnt know)

so in this case the guy with the eagle and scramble eggs on his hat says this is the uniform, and its approved; so like good paramilitary types people salute and execute....  Is it right, no; is the world going to end, no; is it worth making an incident over at the time...not really.   

mk

[JoeTomasone]

If you're looking to debate the official rules of the uniform, you're arguing with the wrong guy. I have no freaking clue how PA WG and National worked this out, but thats how it is, whether you like it or not.

I don't care one way or the other - I'm not involved.  I'm rather disappointed, however, that you don't care either.  You see, National and PAWG apparently did NOT "work this out", because there is no guidance from either echelon on the matter.    Funny that National remembered to authorize the Hawk patch for the BDUs but forgot all the other stuff, isn't it?

WIWAC, they never taught me to ignore regulations because "someone said it was OK".     Perhaps the program has changed.

<shrug>

Carry on, Cadet.  I'll take my leave of the thread now.   

[Eclipse]

So, other than bashing on Hawk Mountain about uniforms, does anyone have any other real questions? I'm just spitballing, but I'm pretty sure that's the purpose of this thread, for cadets to get an idea of what to expect.

Are you a cadet or a senior?

What is your position on staff?

[Майор Хаткевич]

So, other than bashing on Hawk Mountain about uniforms, does anyone have any other real questions? I'm just spitballing, but I'm pretty sure that's the purpose of this thread, for cadets to get an idea of what to expect.

Are you a cadet or a senior?

What is your position on staff?

I'm Ranger Staff. If any of you have any questions, I can answer them for you.

Are you a cadet or a senior?

What role do you have on staff?

I'm a cadet, Team Commander for Bravo Squadron, will be an orange scarf and a Squadron Commander for Hawk 2010.

[DBlair]

Post Note: the Hawk path can be worn only on the right hand chest pocket. Only PAWG can wear them in place of the wing patch.

Not true. The National Board allowed for the following patches to be worn in place of a Wing patch:

- National Emergency Services Academy
- National Flight Academy
- Cadet Officer School
- National Honor Guard Academy
- Hawk Mountain Ranger School
- Blue Beret
- Air Force Space Command Familiarization Course
- Pararescue Orientation Course

Florida Wing sent out a policy letter last year specifically stating as such, and other Wings have probably done the same. So, it isn't just a PAWG policy.

Missing my point there. The Hawk patch can only be worn on the chest pocket, except in PA where it can also be worn in the WG place. Not saying nothing else can be worn in the WG place.

No, you are missing my point here. You state that it can only be worn on the pocket, except that in PAWG it can be worn in place of the Wing patch. My point is that this is not exclusive to PAWG as you claim- other wings allow it to be worn in place of the Wing patch as well.

PAWG has a habit of thinking they are an island and that policies are exclusive to them. 

[Eclipse]

I'm Ranger Staff. If any of you have any questions, I can answer them for you.

Are you a cadet or a senior?

What role do you have on staff?

I'm a cadet, Team Commander for Bravo Squadron, will be an orange scarf and a Squadron Commander for Hawk 2010.

Sorry, Read the Friendly Thread.

My advice, as a cadet, and not a spokesperson for HMRS, would be to just leave this alone.

[Ranger Staff]

Post Note: the Hawk path can be worn only on the right hand chest pocket. Only PAWG can wear them in place of the wing patch.

Not true. The National Board allowed for the following patches to be worn in place of a Wing patch:

- National Emergency Services Academy
- National Flight Academy
- Cadet Officer School
- National Honor Guard Academy
- Hawk Mountain Ranger School
- Blue Beret
- Air Force Space Command Familiarization Course
- Pararescue Orientation Course

Florida Wing sent out a policy letter last year specifically stating as such, and other Wings have probably done the same. So, it isn't just a PAWG policy.

Missing my point there. The Hawk patch can only be worn on the chest pocket, except in PA where it can also be worn in the WG place. Not saying nothing else can be worn in the WG place.

No, you are missing my point here. You state that it can only be worn on the pocket, except that in PAWG it can be worn in place of the Wing patch. My point is that this is not exclusive to PAWG as you claim- other wings allow it to be worn in place of the Wing patch as well.

PAWG has a habit of thinking they are an island and that policies are exclusive to them.

Well then apparently that's my mistake. I was under the impression that only PA WG could wear it there.

[Spike]

Serious Question.... How many rabbits will be slaughtered this year to make everyone on the mountain feel better about themselves?

Or...

Will Cadets leave Hawk with staph infections like last year??

Or...

Will we see pictures floating around again of Cadets smoking like last year??

Or...

and the questions can go on forever.

[PA Guy]

A cadet comes on this board with the intent of responding to questions from other cadets about attending Hawk Mtn.  In typical CapTalk fashion he is immeditatley dogpiled about things he has no direct knowledge of or control over by seniors that should know better.

[raivo]

A cadet comes on this board with the intent of responding to questions from other cadets about attending Hawk Mtn.  In typical CapTalk fashion he is immeditatley dogpiled about things he has no direct knowledge of or control over by seniors that should know better.

Seriously.

[heliodoc]

Yep those over grown cadets at CAPTalk over the age of 26

Knowing everything

From my point of view, which is about .02333333333333333333333 cents on this board

Hawk Mountain does draw a serious amount of self dog piling year after year

PJOC is taught by Pros also....maybe even exceeding that of Hawk Mountain

PJOC even does it in regular BDU's apparently with not too much uniform fanfare

CAPTalk........ where dogpiling is a day to day ritual and where one can learn even next to NOTHING about uniforms.....except how many there are and HOW many ways to wear it....correctly or incorrectly

And EVEN more with a reckless 39-1  that needs  a WHOLE lotta updating to include REAL wording about ALLLLLLL these fancy field uniforms...

Thinking that's the Bible?   Well it IS time for a re write even for you hard core CAPtalkers who may defend the 39-1

[lordmonar]

A cadet comes on this board with the intent of responding to questions from other cadets about attending Hawk Mtn.  In typical CapTalk fashion he is immeditatley dogpiled about things he has no direct knowledge of or control over by seniors that should know better.

Seriously.

Gentlemen,

A someone who identifies himself as Ranger Staff comes onto the forum with out reading the entire thread, makes statements about the policies of PAWG and and HMRS as if he in fact did have some control over them, then follows up with a contradiction of that same same policy statement....deserves to be dog piled.

PAWG and HMRS have flouted 39-1 for many years.  Anyone trying to defend them is going to get dogpiled....and rightly so.  The only defense I accept from anyone is "I was told to wear it by my commander".  At that point I stop giving the individual a hard time and start looking for the commander.

Unfortunately in this case National is not doing their job....there is nothing else we can do except correct our people as they return from HMRS and toe the line as best we can.

[Spike]

^ Agreed.  I mention Hawk when giving the annual NCSA speech.  Honestly, I support NESA and their vision, more so than Hawk, but if a Cadet wants to go to PA Wing and spend his or her days hiking up a Mountain, I will not try to persuade them differently.  In fact, the Squadron pays for all NCSA costs, and we have one of the largest NCSA attendance rates in the Wing. 

However, I make sure that all the ranger bling comes off when they appear at the next Squadron Meeting following Hawk.  All except the patch, which I mandate to be affixed in the same position as all other NCSA patches. 

[raivo]

PAWG and HMRS have flouted 39-1 for many years.  Anyone trying to defend them is going to get dogpiled....and rightly so.  The only defense I accept from anyone is "I was told to wear it by my commander".  At that point I stop giving the individual a hard time and start looking for the commander.

I guess I'm not understanding everyone's eagerness to band together and denounce HMRS' uniform wear, *at* HMRS. I honestly don't care what they do at HMRS - their activity, their business. If National wants to enforce it, then that's their prerogative; otherwise, I'm going to treat it like the wearing of morale patches on flight suits in the AF:

Is it technically authorized? No.
Do most people do it? Yes.
Am I going to make it my business to tell people who do it, that they're wrong? No.

Unfortunately in this case National is not doing their job....there is nothing else we can do except correct our people as they return from HMRS

Once they're back at their home unit, yes, that's perfectly reasonable.

[FW]

^ PAWG does not authorize wear of any HMRS "bling" outside the school.  Approved patches are authorized as to the (not yet updated) CAPM 39-1.    If any individual decides to flout 39-1,  it should be dealt with by their unit commander. 

National not doing "their job"?  I can agree with that comment because 39-1 hasn't been updated in the last .... years.  But, then, when it comes to uniforms; who does have "authority" anymore?  Maybe we will receive some real guidance in the near future. 

Oh, and just to clarify some other issues, The HMRS curriculum has been approved by NHQ/CP.  The last 2 National Commanders have attended the school as students and were very satisfied with the experience.  And unlike PJOC, HMRS was never closed down for CPPT violations.

[Ranger Staff]

I didn't come onto this website to argue endlessly about uniform regs. I appreciate the support of all the members that came to my aid, but this sniping over Hawk gear that nobody here has control over has to stop. It's pointless.

Cadets can only wear the SAR patch. Nothing else, unless they're staff and have earned the staff rocker that goes beneath it. They can't wear a chain, belt, scarf, white laces, or Ranger Grade tab. They can't roll their covers. If they have a problem with that, give me their names and ensure they come to Hawk in 2010, and I'll remind them of the rules face to face.

So, do any CADETS that have noncynical questions about the upcoming winter or summer schools? Packing, equipment, preparation, ect?

[SilverEagle2]

They can't wear ... Ranger Grade tab

Actually they can on the BBDU per the National Board. Should be incorporated in the next 39-1  :angel:

I went WIWAC and loved it. I remember thinking I had learned some valuable skills. Overall, I had a ton of fun.

[Spike]

They can't wear ... Ranger Grade tab

Actually they can on the BBDU per the National Board. Should be incorporated in the next 39-1  :angel:

I went WIWAC and loved it. I remember thinking I had learned some valuable skills. Overall, I had a ton of fun.

No they can not.  Show me the current ICL, which is not out of date per Nationals own policy regulations.  Honestly, more members wear the ranger tabs on BDU's illegally than on BBDU's.