Hawk Mountain Ranger School

[Hawk200]

No it isnt. You opinion is just that your opnion.  You can give your view on people you've met; thier attitude, their competency, thier appearance and you can equate that to whatever thier experience was.  But when you comment on someplace or something you havent ever expereinced for yourself you opinion does not carry the same weight.  Yes if you run into 30 people that all have the same experience from something you can draw a conclusion from that; however you're still basing your "facts" from those people, not the actual activity.

No, it's not my "opinion", it's my experience. 28 out of 30 people had issues. Period. That fact does not change because I have not attended the school. School attendance is completely irrelevant.

It seems like you're trying tell me this: "You haven't been to Hawk, so what you claim to say didn't happen".

I'd be willing to accept that I may have just run across all the bad apples if everyone that has posted here said "Well, I don't understand that, I've never had a problem with them." I'd certainly consider the possibility that maybe I just misconstrued the behaviour. The thing is, I'm not the only person that has posted here saying there's issues. It makes no sense to deny that some kind of issue exists because I haven't "been there".

If 50 people come into work and all tell you the sky is green, are you going to take their word for it and tell all your friends the sky is green, or are you going to go out an look for yourself before you tell everyone else?

Of course not, but I'm certainly not going to believe one person that tells me the sky is green. So why are you trying to tell me the sky is green?

Besides, this isn't about people telling me that all Hawk grads are problem children. It's about me actually witnessing, with my own eyes and ears, problematic behaviour.

Someone may think they're superior to others because of their training. The problem is when it gets expressed out of context. The training is superior, but the person isn't any better than anyone else.

I coundn't agree more, and HMRS is by far not the ony culprit here (they just seem to flood the market, maybe its a numbers thing 100 every year vs 30 from PJOC for example...I dont know).

I've only met a handful PJOC grads. Most seemed to be hardcore motivated types, but nothing I would consider a behavioural issue. Then again, the four I've known of (over a ten year period) isn't enough to make a determination.

I dont know where/how they learn it, When I was a Sq CC & Primary instructor at HMRS I always told my students they are no one special, they just have more training the next guy; Scarves, belts and whistle chains dont make you superior to anyone, and I know a number of others that told thier students the same thing.

That's an excellent thing to teach people, completely regardless of what school they're attending.

One thing about Army Rangers (and I know Hawk isn't the same thing) is that they're not only trained in some hardcore tactics, they were originally trained to teach the same thing they learned back at their units, basically propogating the knowledge. Maybe a similar program intention should be included at Hawk. Besides, I've read that when you think you know everything, teach. You be surprised at what you learn from "amateurs".

Unfortunately there seems to be a disconnect between what seniors say and what cadets hear (CAP wide, not just at HMRS)

I wouldn't class it in that manner, I would state "what instructors say and what students hear" is a more appropriate way of putting it. Of the people I met, it was a mix of both, therefore it isn't limited to cadets. It's a little unfair to pigeonhole cadets.

there is a fine line between building unit pride and esprit de corps and building elitesm.

I'll agree there.

[heliodoc]

No conspiracies considered here

I know the steps for CAP tasking thru AFRCC etc

Nonetheless the organizations are out on both Federal and State taskings.  Seen 'em all on one variation or another in the wildfire environment whether or not Fed or State taskings

Some group called the USAF thanks for the sarcasm...that IS my welcoming back.  Is that REALLY WHY CAP is not the list???  Like Eclipse says...   CITE PLEASE!!!  Got proof that is why CAP is not on that list in 244?  CAP not a local resource??  Maybe when I'm in Emmitsburg, PA I'll ask the question.  I seem to think the list in IS 244 is a NATIONAL list for both Fed and State incidents.  Can you CAPTalkers prove different?

Doesn't matter  we are still a 501(c)3 like the others and a  "Corporation."

Some here like to split hairs...   We just better be happy we get called at all..... Not being on a NVOAD list....hasn't that got allll  those "branding issues" CAPTalkers have been chirping about??

[Hawk200]

Normally I mostly advise on medical stuff, but do chime in on others...

OK, a question: How is a "Ranger Medic" different that a regular Ranger? Yes, I know, obviously they have medical quals, but does a "Ranger Medic" still carry the same basic/core/foundation/etc quals that just a regular Ranger does? Wondering how much difference or additional qual there is.

heres what I have already:
-The left shoulder patch thing....either update the ICL from the last commander (rescind it or re-indorse it) but publish it as a wing supplement (ie assumingly NHQ approved)

I still think it should be worn on the pocket just like other activity patches. To me, it presents an appearance of nose-thumbing at National directives. Just an opinion, others may have similar opinions, but I'm stating it as mine only.

Ranger Con-ops.  What exactly do ranger teams do that reg CAP GTMS's dont and how and why you should develop and employ them.  Or if you get one to show up on a mission how to use them most effectively.  More specifically this spells out what exactly the training done at the school is and why it benefits you or your people to go.

I think that's a good plan. What does the Ranger team provide that GT's don't? It's gonna have to be something, or else it's just another special activity.

Specific to the school-Some of the complaints in this thread (and others) lead me to the following thoughts:  create some prereq's:  age up the minimum to maybe 15 (solves some maturity issues)

I like the idea, I think it might help.

require a previous encampment and/or a rank requirement...ie C/SrA.  (also the maturity issue, but also they alredy have the ideas of how teamwork & leadership work in a bigger than the home squadron setting).

I think a previous encampment is probably a good idea. One individual I overhead saying "I went to Ranger school for my encampment!" in response to someone talking about encampment. I don't know if it substitutes or not, but I don't think it should.

As to the rank, I don't know. That's not a "I don't like it", I just honestly don't know. I'd lean toward it, considering what you're saying about learning teamwork prior to attending.

GTM3-You cant do "0" to ranger in 9 days and expect any kind of competency...if they already have a basis of CAP ES operations more training time can be spent on ranger/advanced GTM skills.

Like this too. The school should be building on previous experience, not presenting material that's completely new to the attendees. There are people that look to individuals with those Ranger tabs for knowledge, and it can be a negative when the person doesn't know anything more than any other GT Member.

Staff Training:  Find people with established leadership ability (the team commanders seem to always come out of the program with the leadership style of yell louder rather than a true ability to act the leader......) concentrate more on skill competency and teaching ability.

Definitely. Many people know that sometimes a quiet word with someone can make more difference than a day of yelling at them.

The one drastic thing I am looking at is a new niche for the ranger skill set.  Basically for years HMRS was all about wilderness SAR, where no one else in CAP (as a whole) really did much more than ELT's.  That has changed, the GTM program is fairly inclusive.  There really serves minimal purpose for a seperate identifier of "ranger" or ranger team if the skills are pretty much the same as everyone else. (There is a push to make Ranger a 101 qual)  One area CAP is lacking in is Disaster Releif Ops (besides hand out water or fill sandbags)  The concepts of FLWG recon program would be a good fit.  It involves a lot of the skills that the ranger program uses....mobility and navigation, 72 hour self sustainability, communications.

Someone mentioned earlier about ICS. I'd say include some of the ICS courses that might relate to the types of skillsets that Rangers already possess. I'd also suggest that some of your higher classifications get more advanced ICS training. Advanced Rangers get ICS300 course (and anything else 3XX), Master Rangers 400 (and continuing into 4XX).

Maybe require something like a "Continuing Education" or at least have it available. There are lots of jobs in the world that don't end when you finish classes, it's just a foundation for the additional learning that's about to begin. In many places, we refer to ourselves as "unpaid professionals". Yeah, we all know we're unpaid, now lets work on the "professional" part.

I think the program could go a long way. I think it also might not hurt for some other states to consider some schools in their regions to cover their AOR's. Desert training (Desert Rats perhaps?), Snow/Extreme Cold, maybe those additional concepts are obviously out of your purvue, but I think other states should consider them.

Out of curiosity, is there a training plan document available? I'd be interested in reading it.

[RiverAux]

Disagree on the 300/400.  HMRS is really a field-level course and 300/400 are more management-related.  Two different ballgames.

As for the purpose of the rangers, the only difference between them and regular GT folks are rope-related, the use of which CAP has severely restricted.  Why we're teaching cadets (and I suppose some seniors) techniques that we are not going to let them use on missions is beyond me. 

[sarmed1]

Ranger Medic:  The medical qual is an additional qualification (Ranger first, medic second) each progression carries an additional Ranger requirement up thru advanced ranger.

Shoulder patch-I dont understand this one at all, I clearly explain to out of state cadets that 39-1 says left pocket; PA cadets it says left pocket...but if your commander tells you differant thats on you.

Encampment-HMRS hasnt counted as an encampment since the early 80's, so anyone that tells you that is either lying or sadly confsed

ICS-I dont know if it was post Katrina based or just the general flo of how the world is shifting, but ICS requirements are part of the program Advanced needs IS 200, and I think experts do 300
The entire school is set up around an ICS structure actually, and its used during all simulated missions either durig the summer or during the year.

Con Ed-Not so much on the Ranger side, but on the medical side we have a con ed requirement for progression

Other Programs-There was discussion when Pineda was the commander about expanding the program nationally; basically creating regional schools; each school might have a regional specific "extra" skill, such as desert, winter, or swamp type operatoins..where PA is ropes/mountians; I think that fell to the back burner when he got sacked though.

What do rangers do differant from GT types...personally I dont see that big of a differance anymore...Basically there is more emphasis on wilderness skills, land navigation (at a lower level than the equivilent GTM program) and the rope work...which is allowable by special waiver to your wing/region, and not an uncommon skill required for wilderness SAR in PA

mk

[Michael]

I plan on attending the Winter School on the mountain this year in Echo squadron.

Is there a physical fitness exam at the beginning of that course?

To anyone considering going-

I've gone to winter school twice before, and it's a great experience.  It's tough, but you'll be glad you did it.

If you do go, make sure you're gear is packed well, and that you're able to hydrate quickly and frequently.   In addition, make sure you dress in layers, and wear waterproof boots.  They tell you to do so for a reason.

[Ranger Staff]

I'm Ranger Staff. If any of you have any questions, I can answer them for you.

[Rotorhead]

I'm Ranger Staff. If any of you have any questions, I can answer them for you.

Why does this school advocate ignoring uniform regulations in favor of non-reg bling?

[isuhawkeye]

CAP is specifically mentioned in FEMA's online search and rescue course, so there is no anti-CAP conspiracy.  And I suspect that arajca's comments are on the nose as CAP is considered a federal resource as far as state and local agencies are concerned rather than the more local volunteer groups that are probably the object of that particular course.

FYI FEMA does bot have an on line Search and Rescue course.  They have an on line course which is an orientation to ESF #9

[JoeTomasone]

I'm Ranger Staff. If any of you have any questions, I can answer them for you.

Why does this school advocate ignoring uniform regulations in favor of non-reg bling?

X2

[Ranger Staff]

Hawk does not advocate ignoring uniform regulations. Ranger staff wears something called Ranger parade, which consists of a whistle chain, pistol belt, and scarf. Grey scarf means staff in training, yellow means team commander, orange means squadron commander and above, green means medic in training, and red means medic. yellow and green are roughly on the same level, as well as red and orange. In addition, staff wears pistol belts, which expert rangers have black belts, and master medics wear red.

So, the color scarf you have denotes your rank, the color belt denotes how much you know. All staff and medics wear whistle chains.

However, none of these things may be worn outside of Hawk Mountain. Even the school commander cannot wear his orange scarf to squadron meetings. If any cadets in your squadron are wearing these things, feel free to rip them off. They have not earned that right, and cannot wear them outside of the mountain.

Post Note: the Hawk path can be worn only on the right hand chest pocket. Only PAWG can wear them in place of the wing patch.

Anything else?

[JoeTomasone]

Hawk does not advocate ignoring uniform regulations. Ranger staff wears something called Ranger parade, which consists of a whistle chain, pistol belt, and scarf. Grey scarf means staff in training, yellow means team commander, orange means squadron commander and above, green means medic in training, and red means medic. yellow and green are roughly on the same level, as well as red and orange. In addition, staff wears pistol belts, which expert rangers have black belts, and master medics wear red.

(sigh)

OK, I'll bite.  Please cite the sections in 39-1 or the ICL authorizing these items to be worn with a Civil Air Patrol uniform.

However, none of these things may be worn outside of Hawk Mountain. Even the school commander cannot wear his orange scarf to squadron meetings.

Umm...  Why not?

[JayT]

Hawk does not advocate ignoring uniform regulations. Ranger staff wears something called Ranger parade, which consists of a whistle chain, pistol belt, and scarf. Grey scarf means staff in training, yellow means team commander, orange means squadron commander and above, green means medic in training, and red means medic. yellow and green are roughly on the same level, as well as red and orange. In addition, staff wears pistol belts, which expert rangers have black belts, and master medics wear red.

So, the color scarf you have denotes your rank, the color belt denotes how much you know. All staff and medics wear whistle chains.

However, none of these things may be worn outside of Hawk Mountain. Even the school commander cannot wear his orange scarf to squadron meetings. If any cadets in your squadron are wearing these things, feel free to rip them off. They have not earned that right, and cannot wear them outside of the mountain.

Post Note: the Hawk path can be worn only on the right hand chest pocket. Only PAWG can wear them in place of the wing patch.

Anything else?

What's the benefit of wearing them 'on the mountain?' Am I doing my patients at work a disservice by not rcking a scarf with my EMS blues?

[Eclipse]

I'm Ranger Staff. If any of you have any questions, I can answer them for you.

Are you a cadet or a senior?

What role do you have on staff?

[sarmed1]

.... Am I doing my patients at work a disservice by not rcking a scarf with my EMS blues?

Do you wear a badge/patch that denotes your certification/position?  Thats more or less where the scarf thing comes into play.  (ok its more for staff/students to identify them rather than Joe Q public, but you get the gist)

(sigh)

OK, I'll bite.  Please cite the sections in 39-1 or the ICL authorizing these items to be worn with a Civil Air Patrol uniform.

Really are you just trolling for a reason (as if needed) to begin a whole new series of bashing on someone for following a practcice they assume to be legitimate (or more specifically trying to make this person look foolish).  Or did you really not read the other 10 pages of this thread (or the countless others) that its been clearly pointed that there is no such ICL or cite in CAPM 39-1.

otherwise I would say they arent worn off the mountain because they are activity specific.  Just like some encampmanets that wear specifc colored hats or t-shirts to denote assignemnt or position.  (yes there is bling worn off the mountain too)


mk

[JoeTomasone]

Really are you just trolling for a reason (as if needed) to begin a whole new series of bashing on someone for following a practcice they assume to be legitimate (or more specifically trying to make this person look foolish).

Actually, I was looking to reconcile the following two statements:

Hawk does not advocate ignoring uniform regulations.

Ranger staff wears something called Ranger parade, which consists of a whistle chain, pistol belt, and scarf. Grey scarf means staff in training, yellow means team commander, orange means squadron commander and above, green means medic in training, and red means medic. yellow and green are roughly on the same level, as well as red and orange. In addition, staff wears pistol belts, which expert rangers have black belts, and master medics wear red.

It struck me as odd that someone would make a bold statement and then contradict it in the very next sentence.

Or did you really not read the other 10 pages of this thread (or the countless others) that its been clearly pointed that there is no such ICL or cite in CAPM 39-1.

No, I pretty much stopped at page 1 with the "pink web belt" story.   While we're at it, perhaps that can be addressed in the context of the above as well.

otherwise I would say they arent worn off the mountain because they are activity specific.  Just like some encampmanets that wear specifc colored hats or t-shirts to denote assignemnt or position.  (yes there is bling worn off the mountain too)

See, that's my point.  There is only one "activity specific" uniform item in 39-1, and that is a beret.   The items listed above are not even in the table describing what items may be permitted by a Wing Commander.   You acknowledge that there is no support for wearing these items in 39-1, so then how does the Hawk Mountain staff justify their use?   

And the encampments that circumvent regulations should be taken to task as well IMHO.

[DBlair]

Post Note: the Hawk path can be worn only on the right hand chest pocket. Only PAWG can wear them in place of the wing patch.

Not true. The National Board allowed for the following patches to be worn in place of a Wing patch:

- National Emergency Services Academy
- National Flight Academy
- Cadet Officer School
- National Honor Guard Academy
- Hawk Mountain Ranger School
- Blue Beret
- Air Force Space Command Familiarization Course
- Pararescue Orientation Course

Florida Wing sent out a policy letter last year specifically stating as such, and other Wings have probably done the same. So, it isn't just a PAWG policy.

[lordmonar]

The key part of that NB decision was that WING CC could authorise other event patches in place of the Wing Patch.  PAWG only allows the HMRS patch on the right shoulder....and just because they do does not imply that it is authorised in other wings.

FLWG allows others.....I know that NVWG does not allow any other patch but the wing patch on that shoulder.

[Ranger Staff]

Hawk does not advocate ignoring uniform regulations. Ranger staff wears something called Ranger parade, which consists of a whistle chain, pistol belt, and scarf. Grey scarf means staff in training, yellow means team commander, orange means squadron commander and above, green means medic in training, and red means medic. yellow and green are roughly on the same level, as well as red and orange. In addition, staff wears pistol belts, which expert rangers have black belts, and master medics wear red.

(sigh)

OK, I'll bite.  Please cite the sections in 39-1 or the ICL authorizing these items to be worn with a Civil Air Patrol uniform.

However, none of these things may be worn outside of Hawk Mountain. Even the school commander cannot wear his orange scarf to squadron meetings.

Umm...  Why not?

If you're looking to debate the official rules of the uniform, you're arguing with the wrong guy. I have no freaking clue how PA WG and National worked this out, but thats how it is, whether you like it or not.

[Ranger Staff]

I'm Ranger Staff. If any of you have any questions, I can answer them for you.

Are you a cadet or a senior?

What role do you have on staff?

I'm a cadet, Team Commander for Bravo Squadron, will be an orange scarf and a Squadron Commander for Hawk 2010.