CAP NCO vs. Senior CAP Adviser

[Michael M]

I was reading  the following topic on CAP Talk:  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1030.0

The topic was about the official abbreviations of CAP rank and the discussion spilled over to the former Air Force Sergeant (E-5) grade and its elimination from CAP and the Air Force.   

I do pose this question to the forum, why does CAP call senior member non officer grades "noncommissioned officer" grades when there is no commissioning program in CAP?

The title of CAPR 35-5 is"CAP Officer and NCO Appointments and Promotions."  The title and content never addresses the CAP Officer as a "commissioned officer", but calls senior members who chose not be be a CAP CAP officers "noncommissioned" officers.

I am curious, not trying to cause an issue, and I have the utmost respect for the NCO corp since I am a former active duty NCO.  CAP is  moving away from the "U.S. Air Force Axillary" label to the corporate non profit identity, and since there is no commissioning program, shouldn't the senior members who choose not to be a CAP officer be called, "Non CAP Officer" instead?

I offer this proposal since a CAP "NCO"who is not in the Air Force and CAP, seems to hold on their former  military equivalent forever in CAP without hope for promotion in  CAP.  Why not have the program have a Senior CAP Adviser which would be similar to the old Senior Enlisted Adviser position but call them "Command Chief Master Sergeants" with the responsibility of the assisting the composite Squadron Commanders in cadet programs, drill and ceremony, health and welfare of cadets, etc.?

Just curious.

Note after original posting:

After working as an administrator and processing NCOERs, awards, and commissioning packages, not once did I see an active duty enlisted person who was in CAP hold their military equivalent rank; they always chose to be a CAP officer because the rank showed greater potential for advancement and selection for commissioning if they had a college degree.  I remember two going over to the Army as Warrant Officers to fly helicopters.

[Levi]

I have noticed that at least some are recognized by (i.e., chaplain) receiving "appointments". Perhaps CAP regards this appointment as equivalent to a commission.

[Eclipse]

I do pose this question to the forum, why does CAP call senior member non officer grades "noncommissioned officer" grades when there is no commissioning program in CAP?

Because for one thing, every Senior Member in CAP wearing stripes is an NCO from a military service.
CAP itself does not have a NCO structure - it simply allows current and former NCO's from other branches to wear their stripes if they choose not to accept CAP appointment.

Really, though, its just tradition and ease of reference.  With no delineation of duties, pay, or authority, the nomenclature is not really appropriate to CAP.  There's no enlisted corps to advise on, nor are there health and welfare issues to deal with that would be different for someone with stripes vs. shiny.

As has been pointed out ad nauseum, in an organization where 2d Lt's command squadrons and colonels empty wastebaskets, the whole enlisted/officer paradigm is meaningless.  Even at the corporate level, once a Wing CC, etc., steps down, they stand in line with everyone else.

As to "Senior Advisor to the Commander"?  That's a made-up position with no duties usually given to former commanders and the like.

[Eclipse]

After working as an administrator and processing NCOERs, awards, and commissioning packages, not once did I see an active duty enlisted person who was in CAP hold their military equivalent rank; they always chose to be a CAP officer because the rank showed greater potential for advancement and selection for commissioning if they had a college degree. 

At last check there were less than 100 members wearing NCO grade in all of CAP.  There is no connection
between grade and duty appointment, though there has yet to be a test at the Wing, Region, or National level of an NCO wanting to maintain their stripes as a corporate officer.

[Larry Mangum]

I don't remember the exact wording, but if memory serves me right, it would be impossible for a CAP NCO to obtain Command above the Squadron level as the minimum rank to apply for Wing Commander is Major and you must have served as a wing commander to become a region commander.

[RogueLeader]

What about group command.  As for squadron CC, you are correct as there is no mandatory grade to hold, only what the grade they can be promoted to.

[lordmonar]

the former Air Force Sergeant (E-5) grade and its elimination from CAP and the Air Force.

Back in the day....AF Sergeants were E-4's not E-5s.

I do pose this question to the forum, why does CAP call senior member non officer grades "noncommissioned officer" grades when there is no commissioning program in CAP?

The title of CAPR 35-5 is"CAP Officer and NCO Appointments and Promotions."  The title and content never addresses the CAP Officer as a "commissioned officer", but calls senior members who chose not be be a CAP CAP officers "noncommissioned" officers.

We use the standard military terms in an attempt to keep things simple.

[Eclipse]

I don't remember the exact wording, but if memory serves me right, it would be impossible for a CAP NCO to obtain Command above the Squadron level as the minimum rank to apply for Wing Commander is Major and you must have served as a wing commander to become a region commander.

There are no minimum requirements for Wing CC.

35-9 provides a guide which is clearly optional.

"SECTION B – WING COMMANDER SELECTION PROCESS
3. These suggested guidelines are designed to assist region commanders in carrying out this responsibility in a timely, judicious manner and to standardize the selection process. The final decision concerning selection still rests with the region commander concerned. A suggested timeline is shown in figure 1.
4. Minimum qualifications for consideration as wing commander are:
a. Hold at least the CAP grade of major.
b. Completed Level IV of the Senior Member Training Program.
c. Three years command and staff experience at any level within a wing.
d. Budget and asset acquisition knowledge gained within or outside CAP.
e. Five years supervisory experience gained within or outside CAP.
f. Five years total CAP membership with no less than three continuous years of service prior to appointment.
g. Prior to appointment as wing commander, individual must complete a successful fingerprint rescreening. "

I personally know of several recent Wing CC's who have not met all of these at the time of appointment.

[Cecil DP]

I don't remember the exact wording, but if memory serves me right, it would be impossible for a CAP NCO to obtain Command above the Squadron level as the minimum rank to apply for Wing Commander is Major and you must have served as a wing commander to become a region commander.

There are no minimum requirements for Wing CC.

35-9 provides a guide which is clearly optional.

"SECTION B – WING COMMANDER SELECTION PROCESS
3. These suggested guidelines are designed to assist region commanders in carrying out this responsibility in a timely, judicious manner and to standardize the selection process. The final decision concerning selection still rests with the region commander concerned. A suggested timeline is shown in figure 1.
4. Minimum qualifications for consideration as wing commander are:
a. Hold at least the CAP grade of major.
b. Completed Level IV of the Senior Member Training Program.
c. Three years command and staff experience at any level within a wing.
d. Budget and asset acquisition knowledge gained within or outside CAP.
e. Five years supervisory experience gained within or outside CAP.
f. Five years total CAP membership with no less than three continuous years of service prior to appointment.
g. Prior to appointment as wing commander, individual must complete a successful fingerprint rescreening. "

I personally know of several recent Wing CC's who have not met all of these at the time of appointment.

I knew a Wing and later Region Commander who wasn't  a member when he was asked to take over the Wing.  Of course that was over 40 years ago.

[Eclipse]

I knew a Wing and later Region Commander who wasn't  a member when he was asked to take over the Wing.  Of course that was over 40 years ago.

I'd actually heard that more recently but I can't cite so I wasn't going to bring it into the conversation.

What's is (or was) fairly common are active pilots who were ex-military but didn't do much PD and catch up after they are appointed.

I actually agree with the guidelines and were it my call they'd be requirements, but I think its a nod to the volunteer paradigm.  There's no guarantee that someone with all the above will always be available to be a wing CC.

I know too many excellent leaders who meet the criteria but don't have the bandwidth ability to function at a state or region level (let alone national), and further too many who meet the above and should never be considered for anything beyond attendance at the holiday party.

[lordmonar]

There is also the completely viable option of "hiring outside the company".

Someone with lots of leadership and managment experince recently joins CAP and is quickly snapped up for wing leadership.

It is done in the corporate world all the time.

[Michael M]

"We use the standard military terms in an attempt to keep things simple."


I can accept this explanation on the simplest terms, which it brought up a new thought of how low an Air Force enlisted rank out ranks a CAP officer including the National Commander.

I guess I need to get more oxygen to my brain cells.

[davidsinn]

it brought up a new thought of how low an Air Force enlisted rank out ranks a CAP officer including the National Commander.

They don't. We are civilians. They are military. We are equals because we are all (mostly) American Citizens.

[Eclipse]

I can accept this explanation on the simplest terms, which it brought up a new thought of how low an Air Force enlisted rank out ranks a CAP officer including the National Commander.

Members of the military do not "outrank" anyone in CAP by their simple status as being in the military.
They are either in the operational chain of command or they aren't.  Period.

By our regulations we are required to salute members of the military who are superior in grade, and that's it.

This notion that an Army Captain can walk up to a CAP unit and take control because of his bars is simply incorrect, same with the idea that a CAP Captain would be expected to salute an A1C because he's "in the real Air Force".

Respect and appropriate courtesies?  Yes.

Command authority?  No, if for no other reason than CAP does not tie authority of any kind to grade.  A CAP colonel outside the respective chain has no more authority than an Air Force colonel in the same circumstance.

[RiverAux]

CAP is  moving away from the "U.S. Air Force Axillary" label to the corporate non profit identity

An unsubstantiated premise.

[lordmonar]

There is a big difference between "The USAF is uncomfortable with our CSU" and "The USAF does not like/appreciate/trust CAP".

The NEC is trying to do what everyone wants them to do....simplify the uniforms.  At this point any simplification is a step in the right direction.  The next step is to correct the last two uniform sets we have.  This step is much harder because we now have to get USAF input for one of those options.

The only alternitive is to keep the two uniform sets and just live with the problem that we will never present a uniformed professional appearance to outsiders.

As I said many times before......My personal wish is for the USAF and CAP work out a way for us to wear USAF style uniforms (with CAP cut outs/gray epalets/CAP Patch on shoulder for example).  If we can't do that.....we shoudl bite the bullet and go with a corporate uniform that looks good, is inexpensive, and presents a professional appearance. 

I thing the gray and whites and blazer combos do that.  We could probably keep the green flight suit if we removed the rank from the shoulder....there are lots of non USAF types running around base in green flight suits all the time here at Nellis.

Keep the cadets in USAF style because the USAF does not seem to have a problem with them.

[Gunner C]

CAP is  moving away from the "U.S. Air Force Axillary" label to the corporate non profit identity

An unsubstantiated premise.

True, but there is a slightly faster-than-glacial pace of movement towards the corporate identity, especially if you compare to 30-40 years ago.

[lordmonar]

CAP is  moving away from the "U.S. Air Force Axillary" label to the corporate non profit identity

An unsubstantiated premise.

True, but there is a slightly faster-than-glacial pace of movement towards the corporate identity, especially if you compare to 30-40 years ago.

Well....if you look at the USAF 30-40 years ago and you will also see a shift from taditional military to a more corporate look.

I survided the McPeak years......the bush draw down......the rape of MWR.......it is not suprising that we also see a shift in the auxillary.

[FARRIER]

I survided the McPeak years......the bush draw down......the rape of MWR.......it is not suprising that we also see a shift in the auxillary.

"MWR"?

[jimmydeanno]

I survided the McPeak years......the bush draw down......the rape of MWR.......it is not suprising that we also see a shift in the auxillary.

"MWR"?

Morale, Welfare and Recreation.  They're the "fun" people on base.  You can get discounted tickets from them, they run the sports teams and such on base, organize base events, etc.

For example: http://www.mwr.navy.mil/