Design a new CAP-distinctive Uniform

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Ned is right in many ways.  We simply cannot design a uniform that is going to please everyone, regardless of body shape or hirsuteness.

Some want to look as "military" as possible, and others don't want to look "military" at all.

I hope we can at least come up with some sort of compromise, one that all our membership and the Air Force can at least be OK with.

Sometimes I think we should have done what Canada tried to do, unify their service branches into one and all branches and ranks wore the same dark green uniform and rank insignia.  A good idea, but very unpopular (they went back to separate uniforms), and would be moreso here (imagine what the Marines would say).

[PhotogPilot]

Why is that "obvious"?

I would not necessarily use the term "obvious," but I think what PhotogPilot is trying to do in the supporting statements to the argument is the following:

Cost considerations
Trying not to PO the Air Force
Using extant grey rank slides

All of these have merit; however, I don't think that hard rank should be ruled out for a uniform that is clearly not an Air Force uniform.  Again I refer to where I have said that the system of bars, leaves, eagles and stars are not proprietary to the AF.

Having said that, I believe a CAP-distinctive uniform should not use any Air Force items, which is where I believe the CSU got in trouble, especially given that the originator of that uniform design apparently (?) showed up at a function wearing it with no prior notification.

I don't know if I was trying to put forth ANY argument, just an interesting footnote.

While I appreciate the consideration everyone here has put into their ideas and suggestions, I believe this may be a very futile exercise. The hardcore blue suiters will not accept any ides that take us away from AF blues. The corporate only crowd will scoff at any "military looking" uniform.

If we go khaki or tan, the Navy will complain. If we go anything blue the AF gripes. The Army has the corner on green (although they have abandoned the uniform). Blue and Black? Nope, USMC. Gray? Lawsuits a comin' from the Commerative Air Force.

Also, anything proposed here will ultimately wind up in the "thanks, when your phone dont ring, you'll know its us" file from NHQ.

Sorry, I'm frustrated, and venting somewhat. I like the CSU, it's uniform, it's a UNIFORM, and it looks good. Change the slides to gray, lose the metal rank, allow neat beards and reasonable hair length and be done with it. They're throwing out the baby with the bath water.

OK, Pineda was a jerk, we all hate him, the AF hates him, we get that. The TPU, CSU, call it what you will was poorly conceived, for the wrong reasons, maybe so, maybe not.

I wish I was a 174 pound 19 year old airman basic at Lackland. I'm not, I'm 51 years old, and overweight. I wear WHATEVER uniform I'm allowed, and wear it correctly.

[Dracosbane]

I've been following this since the news broke here.  All the discussion is awesome.  If you don't mind a board noob putting in his two cents...

I've discussed this topic with the SMs at my unit and included some of the ideas here and they agree that some of them would be good ideas.  First, before I even mentioned the discussion here, one of my compatriots suggested that we should be allowed to wear the BBDU pants and boots with the polo.  So great minds think alike.  That definitely should be included in any proposal to the top brass.

I think we should keep the navy blue options -BBDU, flight suit, utility- as they are.  They actually are pretty decent.

When it comes to the polo shirt, keep the shirt, and make the option of BBDUs and boots for field work, or black pants/black shoes for other times.  Or the gray standard that I mention below.

I personally like the idea of going for a CAP corporate uniform for anyone, F&F or not, that goes back to our beginnings.  The khaki or silvertan or whatever you want to call it, with:

- a gray tie, gray rank sleeves, gray nametag, and gray flight cap with blue, silver, black or khaki piping, or gray or khaki service hat.

- or use the AF blue tie, rank sleeves, nametag, and flight cap with current silver piping, or blue service hat.

- or, black tie, black rank sleeves, black nametag, and khaki flight cap with black or silver piping, or khaki service hat.  I'd say a black service hat but that might look a bit wrong.

- or a blue tie, blue rank sleeves, blue nametag, and a khaki flight cap with blue piping, or khaki service hat.

- or really throw back to the red rank sleeves, black nametag, black tie and a khaki flight cap with red piping.

For outerwear with a khaki uniform, the current blue windbreakers, trench coats, sweaters, etc. or black or khaki variations of these.  This uniform would be available in short or long sleeve variations, and would be for use in place of the AF Blues for those who can't or don't want to wear those.  CAP badges, ribbons, etc. only allowed.  For the "Class A" version, a khaki or blue single breasted service jacket with whatever color combination above matching the "Class B".

If the khaki/silvertan uniform isn't worth working out, then I agree with going to a standard gray pant with the gray/whites, and allowing for a gray flight cap.  I think a black service jacket would look smart with this combination.  These standard gray pants could also be used with the polo, as mentioned above.

Any current AF option available now would stay the same.

I think these would be CAP Corporate distinctive without POing the AF, and yet still military enough for everyone to feel comfortable in.

At least those are the thoughts I've been having about all this.  YMMV.

[flyguy06]

I think we should keep the navy blue options -BBDU, flight suit, utility- as they are.  They actually are pretty decent.

That would look too much like law enforcement or EMS.

[lordmonar]

I think we should keep the navy blue options -BBDU, flight suit, utility- as they are.  They actually are pretty decent.

That would look too much like law enforcement or EMS.

At some point we are just going to have to bite that bullet!

No matter what way we go we are going to find that someone already beat us there.  OD green...taken, BDU camo....taken. Navy Blue....Taken.  Black....taken.  Tan....taken.  Desert BDU (all three variants)...taken.  MARPAT....Taken.  Dark Blue....taken.  ACU....taken.  ABU....taken.  Gray....taken.

So....we are going to look like someone else.....live with it.

[Eclipse]

So....we are going to look like someone else.....live with it.

+1 - in fact, that's kinda the point...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

At some point we are just going to have to bite that bullet!

No matter what way we go we are going to find that someone already beat us there.  OD green...taken, BDU camo....taken. Navy Blue....Taken.  Black....taken.  Tan....taken.  Desert BDU (all three variants)...taken.  MARPAT....Taken.  Dark Blue....taken.  ACU....taken.  ABU....taken.  Gray....taken.

So....we are going to look like someone else.....live with it.

Point taken, but we are not going to look like someone else with ultramarine and/or navy blue "CIVIL AIR PATROL" tapes and attendant insignia clearly displayed.

Most police and ES people that I have seen wear black, not dark blue, for "tactical" uniforms, and most of those are clearly marked with "POLICE."  Some police wear woodland BDU's and subdued insignia when they are doing things like raiding pot fields.

There is nothing original under the sun.

I have long wondered why we need any kind of camouflage, whether it be the woodland BDU or the ABU.  We do not need to avoid being seen, after all.  I think the BBDU is very good for us.

However, standard OD green BDU's and maybe tan for summer/hot weather would be possible.  If anything, our blue insignia would stand out even clearer.  Just a hypothesis.

Failing that, we could always go to sky-blue camouflage...our blue insignia would really blend in with that, though it would make us look like walking Sukhoi-27's.

http://www.galaxyarmynavy.com/item-8882.asp

For those who really like grey, I would be good with solid-grey BDU's and a grey utility jumpsuit (which would make us look like the Imperials in Star Wars to some...).

http://www.galaxyarmynavy.com/item-8882.asp

My point is, anything that is clearly marked as Civil Air Patrol (whether dress, BDU or utility) is going to be Civil Air Patrol.  We can only do so much as to how others perceive us.

[dogboy]

The problem with the current gray trouser corporate uniform is that it is too informal. The corporate uniform needs a jacket and hat. I think this is the most sensible alternative that has been offered on this thread. Grey rank slides on a dark blue police style coat. Relatively inexpensive and easily obtained. No doubt matching flight caps could be obtained easily.

As far as an alternate to Blues as a Corporate Service Uniform, here are my results.


This is a readily available police hat.

The jacket is from the Fechheimer Brothers' Flying Cross line of public safety uniforms. These jackets are a very dark navy blue. None of the pockets are real, just scalloped flaps. On this jacket, you see the following:

-Standard gray CAP slides.
-Standard gray CAP Nameplate.
-CAP lapel cutouts.
-Optional use of CAP Wing/Region/National Patch (Overseas used for illustrative purposes)
-White Aviator shirt (already used for the TPU and white/gray combo)
-USAF Blue tie (Women may wear CAP floppy bow tie or tie tab)
-CAP ONLY ribbons.
-No sleeve braids.
-Rules for wear of badges and ribbons (again, CAP only) follow those currently in the 39-1 for USAF style.
-Would be authorized for wear by all seniors regardless of height/weight standards. Modified grooming standards, including the idea for neatly trimmed beards, would be authorized for this uniform.

There are matching Trousers available for this style coat. However, a uniform shade of Gray would most likely be acceptable with this coat as well, thus making this coat a "Class A" version of the Gray/White.

On this uniform, if not wearing the Coat, rules pertaining to current wear of the Aviator shirt for the Gray/White combo apply.

Comments?

[cap235629]

The problem with the current gray trouser corporate uniform is that it is too informal. The corporate uniform needs a jacket and hat. I think this is the most sensible alternative that has been offered on this thread. Grey rank slides on a dark blue police style coat. Relatively inexpensive and easily obtained. No doubt matching flight caps could be obtained easily.

As far as an alternate to Blues as a Corporate Service Uniform, here are my results.


This is a readily available police hat.

The jacket is from the Fechheimer Brothers' Flying Cross line of public safety uniforms. These jackets are a very dark navy blue. None of the pockets are real, just scalloped flaps. On this jacket, you see the following:

-Standard gray CAP slides.
-Standard gray CAP Nameplate.
-CAP lapel cutouts.
-Optional use of CAP Wing/Region/National Patch (Overseas used for illustrative purposes)
-White Aviator shirt (already used for the TPU and white/gray combo)
-USAF Blue tie (Women may wear CAP floppy bow tie or tie tab)
-CAP ONLY ribbons.
-No sleeve braids.
-Rules for wear of badges and ribbons (again, CAP only) follow those currently in the 39-1 for USAF style.
-Would be authorized for wear by all seniors regardless of height/weight standards. Modified grooming standards, including the idea for neatly trimmed beards, would be authorized for this uniform.

There are matching Trousers available for this style coat. However, a uniform shade of Gray would most likely be acceptable with this coat as well, thus making this coat a "Class A" version of the Gray/White.

On this uniform, if not wearing the Coat, rules pertaining to current wear of the Aviator shirt for the Gray/White combo apply.

Comments?

Nix the patch, add CAP Buttons and you have one heck of a sharp looking uniform.  Bravo!

[arajca]

That uniform most likely would not be approved because it looks even more like an AF uniform than the CSU.

Make the jacket black and keep the trousers grey and you pretty much have what is being discussed in the side group. Black jackets, servicecaps, and garrison/flight caps are readily available. Once we have come to a concensous on the details, a formal proposal will be written up and posted here.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

That uniform most likely would not be approved because it looks even more like an AF uniform than the CSU.

Make the jacket black and keep the trousers grey and you pretty much have what is being discussed in the side group. Black jackets, servicecaps, and garrison/flight caps are readily available. Once we have come to a concensous on the details, a formal proposal will be written up and posted here.

But if it doesn't use any Air Force uniform items, why is their approval necessary?  As I've said, they don't own the copyright on blue uniforms.

[arajca]

What was the 'official' line given for killing the CSU - the AF objected to it. So replacing it with a uniform that looks even closer to the AF uniforms would cause more problems.

[Gunner C]

What was the 'official' line given for killing the CSU - the AF objected to it. So replacing it with a uniform that looks even closer to the AF uniforms would cause more problems.

If that's the standard we're looking at, then we won't have a new one until we design something with a plaid shirt, jeans, and a hunting vest!  The AF is neither stupid nor unreasonable.  This uniform is sharp, military in its cut, and ISN"T AN AF UNIFORM!  If anyone mistakes you for an AF officer then he's on the way to the hospital for an eye test.

[wingnut55]

You UNIFORM guys need to get a LIFE, Or maybe take up Comic book collecting.

[Gunner C]

You UNIFORM guys need to get a LIFE, Or maybe take up Comic book collecting.

Well, if that isn't the biggest insult I've seen on CAP Talk, it's one of the top five.

Designing a new distinctive uniform isn't something for losers.  For many of us, it ties us to nearly 68 years of tradition which some don't want to be part of.  I can't understand why some folks want to deny that. 

I wore a green beret for 18.5 years.  If they got rid of it, I still would have stayed in SF.  But it tied me to a long line of folks going back to the early 1950s.  I met the "father" of SF (Col Aaron Bank)  and the general (Gen William Yarborough) who wore a green beret in front of JFK before it was authorized.  Neither of them knew me from Adam's house cat.  But that green felt headgear (and what it stood for) bound us together and both of the conversations were like we were old friends.  There is a bond between folks who wear the same uniform.  Having a single uniform would unite us all in many ways. 

But then, there's a portion of CAP who doesn't think that's valuable.  I think it's unfortunate, but that's just life.

[LTC Don]

The problem with the current gray trouser corporate uniform is that it is too informal. The corporate uniform needs a jacket and hat. I think this is the most sensible alternative that has been offered on this thread. Grey rank slides on a dark blue police style coat. Relatively inexpensive and easily obtained. No doubt matching flight caps could be obtained easily.

As far as an alternate to Blues as a Corporate Service Uniform, here are my results.


This is a readily available police hat.

The jacket is from the Fechheimer Brothers' Flying Cross line of public safety uniforms. These jackets are a very dark navy blue. None of the pockets are real, just scalloped flaps. On this jacket, you see the following:

-Standard gray CAP slides.
-Standard gray CAP Nameplate.
-CAP lapel cutouts.
-Optional use of CAP Wing/Region/National Patch (Overseas used for illustrative purposes)
-White Aviator shirt (already used for the TPU and white/gray combo)
-USAF Blue tie (Women may wear CAP floppy bow tie or tie tab)
-CAP ONLY ribbons.
-No sleeve braids.
-Rules for wear of badges and ribbons (again, CAP only) follow those currently in the 39-1 for USAF style.
-Would be authorized for wear by all seniors regardless of height/weight standards. Modified grooming standards, including the idea for neatly trimmed beards, would be authorized for this uniform.

There are matching Trousers available for this style coat. However, a uniform shade of Gray would most likely be acceptable with this coat as well, thus making this coat a "Class A" version of the Gray/White.

On this uniform, if not wearing the Coat, rules pertaining to current wear of the Aviator shirt for the Gray/White combo apply.

Comments?

Nix the patch, add CAP Buttons and you have one heck of a sharp looking uniform.  Bravo!

I'm on the fence about the wing patch.  It is a very old tradition, so perhaps we should stay we that, even if they are a pain to attach and keep up with.  They might not seem to be so important, but I found myself constantly wondering where people were from during a region-level activity not long ago.

I like the coat, especially the bright buttons.  I DO NOT like the grey slides.  We need to keep the metal grades along with the CAP cutouts on the lapel.  The grey slides with the CAP cutouts are redundant, and therefore not necessary.

In actuality, going to this coat setup takes us back to the old, USAF 4-button style coat.  And, I do not have a problem with that.

The underlying white shirt/blue pants combination needs to have the old, original blue slides with the embroidered CAP in them.......in other words, if we move to a totally different shade of blue, then we need to ditch the grey slides, which were a compromise to the hideous maroon slides, which we were forced to go to because OUR blue grade slides were 'taken away' from us.

I am all for getting our uniform back to where it should have never left, pre-1990-ish, except for perhaps better fabrics, fit and finish.


Cheers,

[AlphaSigOU]

If we're going for a distinctive CAP gray service dress, I think we should go with hard rank on the shoulders , maybe move the CAP cutouts  from the lapels to the same relative position as the shoulder marks.  Gray shoulder marks on service dress should stay on the blue AF-style - IMHO it has no place on the proposed gray service dress.

And before someone pipes up with "Oh, my God...we're gonna wind up hacking off the RealAirForce wearing hard rank!" please remember this is a distinctive CAP uniform, with a distinctive cut that is different from AF blue. So the AF shouldn't have conniption fits over fat-and-fuzzy civilians besmirching the 'fightin' fit' look of today's Air Force if we wear a distinctive uniform.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Folks, we are actually more in-line with Ma Blue then we think.  What we are experiencing is the same thing that the AF went through a couple of years ago.  I have included an excerpt from the article posted on "The Air Force Times" in May, 2007.  If you were to change the names of the leaders to CAP leaders, and change "Air Force" to "Civil Air Patrol," it could have been an article written about us.

TWO-THIRDS OF THOSE SURVEYED PREFER CURRENT UNIFORM
With field tests nearing, many airmen are still cold to the Air Force's latest old-school revamp to its service dress uniform, according to an informal Air Force Times survey.

...Ever-changing uniform

New uniforms tend to define Air Force leaders. McPeak is synonymous with the present-day business suit look. Tight collars go hand in hand with Billy Mitchell, the World War I pilot widely considered the father of the Air Force. The history-revisited look, provided it isn't altered, may be forever associated with Moseley.
"Every time we get a new chief of staff, we're reinventing ourselves," said retired Maj. Joe Kelley. "These changes, sometimes they seem like whims."
This is where Booth, [New York ANG who loathes the current uniform, which debuted during former Chief of Staff Gen. Merrill McPeak's tenure]. a supporter of the new coat, sides with many of the suit's critics. He wants the vintage style cemented once and for all.
"If you see a Marine, everyone in the world knows that's a U.S. Marine. We can't just be hell-bent on changing the uniform for the sake of change," Booth said. "We need to find something and stick with it."

(Link to entire story:  http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/05/airforce_dressuniform_070527/ )

All that to say this – We are all tired of uniform changes; we all desire stability.  IMHO, we are at the stage now where if we, the membership, take the initiative to design a corporate uniform that reflects the membership and then we act decisively to institute it, we may very well get the stability of uniform we desperately need.  If you think it is a waste of time, fine.  You don't have to participate, but please do not deride those of us that are working for that stability.  If you have comments, please make them constructive comments.  We are supposed to be on the same team, the CAP team.  Let's act like the professionals we are supposed to be.

[Smithsonia]

Uniforms are branding elements. We should find a combination that works and leave it alone. If the uniform works then the next Air Force General that has a problem and changes it -- has his/her own career to worry about. As in, the Coke executives that had the new Coke/old Coke fiasco of the 80s. (Yes I know in the long run more Coke product was sold but that wasn't because of the original executives mess ups)

Think what would happen to a Marine Commandant that changed the Corps uniform.(In this I mean the Class A and Dress TUNIC) 

By understanding and applying the elements of brand management - the uniform speaks for itself and has it's own push back. In this way the uniform has its own institutional power. In this way the uniform doesn't need a popular vote, a personal opinion, a CapTalk thread... it can carry its own water. It would have its own gravity.

If the Salvation Army, the Red Cross, the Marine Corps, Coca Cola can adhere to the basic rules of branding then CAP can also. Whatever is picked -- quit picking at it.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

All that to say this – We are all tired of uniform changes; we all desire stability.  IMHO, we are at the stage now where if we, the membership, take the initiative to design a corporate uniform that reflects the membership and then we act decisively to institute it, we may very well get the stability of uniform we desperately need.

Stability would be achieved if the National Board and the National Executive Committee had the bat taken from their hands, if the National Commander didn't have free reign to institute changes without oversight (or at least by doing end-runs around protocol), and if CAP did one of two things:

-- Institute a CAP Uniform Board that meets every year (or every two) to approve or disapprove proposals from the field, like the Air Force Uniform Board. The board's recommendations would then be approved or disapproved by the National Board or the NEC.
-- Grant the Air Force Uniform Board authority over CAP uniforms, through HQ CAP/USAF.

The latter idea won't happen because the Air Force generally couldn't care less about our "civilian combinations." But if the board had oversight over CAP uniforms, you can bet all those silly shields you can wear in three different places on the blues would have been stillborn. You can also make an educated wager that the CSU would have never happened, and if the National Commander at the time threw it out there as he did, he would have had his hand smacked for overreaching.

Smithsonia said our uniforms are branding elements. I laughed a little, because outside of the Air Force uniform, our uniforms are as inconsistent and change as much as the slogan that comes out of NHQ/PA. (The last good one was "Eyes Of The Home Skies." Can anyone tell us what the current slogan is? What it was before that? And before that?) Fact is, we rely on the Air Force uniform for our identity, not the golf shirt or the blue BDU. And that's not a bad thing. We're the Eyes of the Home Skies, not the eyes of the country club!

Last point... the idea of a gray uniform is not new in American history. Seems we had this thing called the Civil War, back in, oh, say, 1861-65. One side wore blue while the other wore gray. The blue side won. We're Civil Air Patrol, not Civil War Patrol, and we're not reenacting anything. The whites-and-grays are fine with the blue blazer, since if you wear the blazer, you're wearing the white shirt and gray pants anyway. That should be quite enough. If you want to change anything, change the gray pants to khaki, and then maybe you can have your blue shoulder marks on the white shirt.

Holy cow, I ranted. </rant>