The Uniform Team

[davidsinn]

I would like to see a real 5 year moratorium on uniform changes in CAP.  I mean a real National Board policy that states that CAP uniforms are not to changefor a period of 5 years.  This would insure that CAP looked the same for at least that long.  Changes could be discussed and on the 4th year a Uniform Team could solicit ideas and make corrections, changes and effect a complete rewrite of CAPM 39-1 for the fifth year.

It'll never happen. It makes sense.

[heliodoc]

No problem, Ned

This is my second time around CAP after a 25 year hiatus

21 spent in RM where there was change as well as confusion about unis.  But people were getting paid to pay attention and there was more organization in the MANUALS

CAP, on the other hand, with its smurf suits, desires, cheap flight suits, and probably even cheaper combat boots sold by Vanguard, makes me wonder what ALLL those board meetings are about other than smooozing legislators, etc.  Maybe we ought to be spending our time lobbying the AF a little more and trying not to urinate on them with all our impressive uniform changes that make the membership's head spin wildly around a 39-1

There are more important things to do than just our uniform heraldry.  When people get tired of CAP, no one need wonder why.

I came back for the ES, and hold on..... for the "cheeeeep flying"  RIGHT

For the amount of crud the membership has to endure about "correct uniform wear" make folks wonder what really goes on down there at Maxwell.....

The membership should NOT have to endure the wildly crazy 39-1.  It SHOULD BE ORGANIZED and UNDERSTANDABLE and COHERENT

Not some hodgepodge that is continually running around with ICL's.  Stop the ICL business and make ONE definite reg and stay with it more than 6 months..


It is no wonder there is so much on CAPTALK.... NO straight answers from above...just more ICLs.

I am not correct about anything.  The folks here are the ones talking more about unis.  Love to see a real suggestion board for CAP........Anybody at NHQ really read what the minions say???

Thank you for your response. 

[SilverEagle2]

TIME for CAP to separate its uniforms from MAMA BLUE... 

Negative. We are the AUX, we should look like the AUX.

trying to align CAP uniforms with AF uniforms is a perpetual headache for all.

Only because of the people that create/promote the alternatives.

[RiverAux]

Is there any reason that squadron patches should not be authorized for wear on a flight suit?  Why let them be worn on all the other military-style uniforms, but not the flight suit?  Seems like more of an oversight than a deliberate decision.

[wacapgh]

Found a copy of the 1997 39-1: Table 5-3, Item 11 "Organizational (Unit)
Emblems"

"Centered on the lower portion of the right breast pocket of BDU shirt or field jacket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket. May also be worn on right sleeve of jumpsuit."

"Jumpsuit" is defined in 6-2:
"The jumpsuit is a bright royal blue color, commercial style and has an elastic gathered waistband with velcro adjustments, front zipper, and a left breast pocket."

So, we have at least two editions of the 39-1 going back over a decade that specifically do not include Flight Suits.

[arajca]

Is there any reason that squadron patches should not be authorized for wear on a flight suit?  Why let them be worn on all the other military-style uniforms, but not the flight suit?  Seems like more of an oversight than a deliberate decision.

You're probably right. Which means, someone needs to...dare I say it...



submit a CHANGE to authorize unit patches on the flight suit.

[jeders]

Found a copy of the 1997 39-1: Table 5-3, Item 11 "Organizational (Unit)
Emblems"

"Centered on the lower portion of the right breast pocket of BDU shirt or field jacket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket. May also be worn on right sleeve of jumpsuit."

"Jumpsuit" is defined in 6-2:
"The jumpsuit is a bright royal blue color, commercial style and has an elastic gathered waistband with velcro adjustments, front zipper, and a left breast pocket."

So, we have at least two editions of the 39-1 going back over a decade that specifically do not include Flight Suits.

True, but you also have a precedent for Unit patches being worn on the right sleeve.

[Hawk200]

It is apparent from the dispute that there are a couple interpretations. Those need to be clarified, or else there wouldn't be a dispute.

We need a new release of 39-1. A manual and then several change letters is not a prudent way of doing business. I seem to recall something from when I was active duty that if a publication had more than a couple of supplements, then it was to be rewritten to include the supplemental material, and then released. We should adopt such a policy.

As someone stated before, most of our stuff is electronic. It would be pretty easy to modify anything that needs it. Take a look at the current page 34, and then a proposed one I knocked together in about 20 minutes. I didn't even use anything fancy, just pasted into OpenOffice, and exported as a PDF.

As a warning, the modified page is not a Civil Air Patrol publication, and is not to be utilized in any manner.

[Hawk200]

True, but you also have a precedent for Unit patches being worn on the right sleeve.

Not to mention that the branch that permits us to wear their uniform does it that way too.

[Larry Mangum]

I would have to agree, that it takes much too long to merge changes into the manual.  I do know that part of the delay is that 1) All changes have to be approved by the entire National Board and 2) If it is an air force uniform, CAP-USAf has to approve the change as well.

An ICL also does not seem to be the appropriate way to implement changes as the reg (CAPR 5-1) states:
                     
     4. Interim Change Letters (ICL). Situations requiring immediate action due to a state of   emergency, an unforeseen circumstance involving the preservation of life or property, or other contingencies that may require prompt action may result in an interim change letter being issued outlining immediate policies. ICLs may be issued by any level of command unless specifically limited or prohibited by the regulation or manual governing that subject matter. Issuance of policies by ICL is a temporary measure.
a. ICLs outlining immediate policies to be followed for a limited time will be issued with a stated expiration date. Such expiration dates shall not be more than 180 days from the date the letter was issued.
b. ICLs outlining immediate policies that are intended to become permanent shall be incorporated into an appropriate publication within 90 days of the date the letter was issued.

[Ned]

No problem, Ned

This is my second time around CAP after a 25 year hiatus

Thanks for coming back.  CAP allows us to make a difference.

Even us retired military folks.

21 spent in RM where there was change as well as confusion about unis.  But people were getting paid to pay attention and there was more organization in the MANUALS.

Nobody disagrees that we need a new/revised 39-1.

Indeed, our volunteer leaders are working the issue right now.  As you might imagine, it is a difficult and thankless task given the diversity of our missions and members as well as the complexity of our uniform scheme.

And I thank God I am not on that committee.

But it is working it's way through the problem(s) and at some point we will get a new 39-1.

For the amount of crud the membership has to endure about "correct uniform wear" make folks wonder what really goes on down there at Maxwell.....

I'm lucky to be able to get to Maxwell several times a year to visit NHQ, and every time I go into the building I see our dedicated Corporate Team working their tails off for the membership.

Remember, it is the volunteer leadership - not the professional staff at NHQ - that makes the calls about our uniforms.  And the volunteer leaders are aware of the issues with the current 39-1 and ICLs and working on the upgrade.

[RiverAux]

Remember, it is the volunteer leadership - not the professional staff at NHQ - that makes the calls about our uniforms.  And the volunteer leaders are aware of the issues with the current 39-1 and ICLs and working on the upgrade.

But doesn't the paid staff generally do the nuts and bolts of re-doing the regulations? 

Whether it is the paid staff or volunteers, there really is no excuse the the state of 39-1.  I've said it before, but once the proper authorities have approved a change a revised regulations should be ready to go out in draft form within a few days (unless it is a total re-write).  Theres nothing in any of the numerous ICLs to 39-1 that couldn't have been incorporated into the regulation within a reasonable period of time. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

39-1 has lots of inconsistencies.  My thinking would be to do one of two things:

1.  Nuke it, and start from scratch.

2.  Nuke it, and admit to Big Mother Blue that we are too stupid to create a comprehensive policy on uniforms, and request them to write in a chapter of THEIR uniform regulations, "Special Insignia Items and Regulations for the Civil Air Patrol."  That way, whenever the USAF updated their uniforms, ours would automatically follow suit.  (which is how most of the USAF officers already think we operate).

But... We need to make sure that the next revision of 39-1 authorizes brown shirts for Uniform Nazis.  Especially in California. 

Oops, my bad.  California already wears brown shirts! 

[BrandonKea]

39-1 has lots of inconsistencies.  My thinking would be to do one of two things:

1.  Nuke it, and start from scratch.

2.  Nuke it, and admit to Big Mother Blue that we are too stupid to create a comprehensive policy on uniforms, and request them to write in a chapter of THEIR uniform regulations, "Special Insignia Items and Regulations for the Civil Air Patrol."  That way, whenever the USAF updated their uniforms, ours would automatically follow suit.  (which is how most of the USAF officers already think we operate).

But... We need to make sure that the next revision of 39-1 authorizes brown shirts for Uniform Nazis.  Especially in California. 

Oops, my bad.  California already wears brown shirts! 

They're wearing brown in the picture...

EDIT (I assumed you're meaning for BDU's)

[JohnKachenmeister]

39-1 has lots of inconsistencies.  My thinking would be to do one of two things:

1.  Nuke it, and start from scratch.

2.  Nuke it, and admit to Big Mother Blue that we are too stupid to create a comprehensive policy on uniforms, and request them to write in a chapter of THEIR uniform regulations, "Special Insignia Items and Regulations for the Civil Air Patrol."  That way, whenever the USAF updated their uniforms, ours would automatically follow suit.  (which is how most of the USAF officers already think we operate).

But... We need to make sure that the next revision of 39-1 authorizes brown shirts for Uniform Nazis.  Especially in California. 

Oops, my bad.  California already wears brown shirts! 

They're wearing brown in the picture...

EDIT (I assumed you're meaning for BDU's)

No, I was referring to the deputy sheriff uniforms that CA Wing wears now.  They wear them on SAR missions, and while breaking out the windows of people who wear unit patches on their flight suits.

[BrandonKea]

No, I was referring to the deputy sheriff uniforms that CA Wing wears now.  They wear them on SAR missions, and while breaking out the windows of people who wear unit patches on their flight suits.

I missed the bus on this one somewhere, lol.

[Rotorhead]

Might be easier to just say, "Wear whatever you want.  After all, you're volunteers, right? So you just do whatever you like best."

[SJFedor]

No, I was referring to the deputy sheriff uniforms that CA Wing wears now.  They wear them on SAR missions, and while breaking out the windows of people who wear unit patches on their flight suits.

Whaaaaa?

Pictures??

[Eclipse]

No, I was referring to the deputy sheriff uniforms that CA Wing wears now.  They wear them on SAR missions, and while breaking out the windows of people who wear unit patches on their flight suits.

I thought thought that combo was rescinded and had not been reinstated.

[PHall]

39-1 has lots of inconsistencies.  My thinking would be to do one of two things:

1.  Nuke it, and start from scratch.

2.  Nuke it, and admit to Big Mother Blue that we are too stupid to create a comprehensive policy on uniforms, and request them to write in a chapter of THEIR uniform regulations, "Special Insignia Items and Regulations for the Civil Air Patrol."  That way, whenever the USAF updated their uniforms, ours would automatically follow suit.  (which is how most of the USAF officers already think we operate).

But... We need to make sure that the next revision of 39-1 authorizes brown shirts for Uniform Nazis.  Especially in California. 

Oops, my bad.  California already wears brown shirts! 

They're wearing brown in the picture...

EDIT (I assumed you're meaning for BDU's)

No, I was referring to the deputy sheriff uniforms that CA Wing wears now.  They wear them on SAR missions, and while breaking out the windows of people who wear unit patches on their flight suits.

You better get your color vision checked, they wear ORANGE shirts.