The Uniform Team

[A.Member]

I am all for wearing the CAP uniform and the Air Force uniform in accordance with regulations, however except for the requirement that Aircrews be in a CAP uniform, and that Seniors need to be in uniform when working with cadets, I challenge you to find a regulation that defines a SAR uniform.  You can't, in fact, last time I checked you cannot even find a reference in capr 60-3 to a uniform being required for an operational mission.

True, a specific "SAR uniform" is not defined but that does not mean CAP uniform wear is optional - - it's not.  A uniform is always required. 

39-1, Table 1-1, specifically the 6th item down, states that a CAP uniform will be worn "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions". 

Furthermore, 1-5 states "Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform."  The  approved CAP uniforms are defined in 39-1 and cannot be superseded.

While Table 1-1 may not spell out which specific CAP uniforms are to be worn in a given situation, 39-1 does indicate in no uncertain terms that a CAP uniform is required for participation in any CAP activity, "operational mission" or otherwise.

That said, I would hope that common sense tells a person that wearing short-sleeved blues uniforms and low quarter dress shoes while tromping through the forest is not a very bright idea.  In that case, I'd argue that it's not unreasonable to deny their participation in that duty based on safety concerns.

[A.Member]

An orange shirt is just as good as some orange vest.

And an orange vest may be just as good as some orange shirt.   The argument goes both ways.  Perhaps there is some shame on the state of CA for not being able to recognize this simple fact.  Seems to me that if this is truly the issue (which I suspect there must be more to this) then CA Wing and that Region need to spend a lot more time working that relationship.

[Larry Mangum]

I am all for wearing the CAP uniform and the Air Force uniform in accordance with regulations, however except for the requirement that Aircrews be in a CAP uniform, and that Seniors need to be in uniform when working with cadets, I challenge you to find a regulation that defines a SAR uniform.  You can't, in fact, last time I checked you cannot even find a reference in capr 60-3 to a uniform being required for an operational mission.

Before I get flammed, I do believe in professionalism and believe that a properly outfitted and worn uniform helps create that image to others.

OK

Wear whatever uniform you want.

Here in Florida, we are proud to wear the uniform of our country.

California apparently has a problem with it.

Never said that I or the Californians were not proud to wear the uniform.  But if it takes having a uniform that meets state requirements or not participating and the wing gets that uniform okayed by national, then what is the harm?  At least if you particpate you are in a sommon uniform.

[heliodoc]

I do not know where CAPers get the idea that the orange shirt is somehow Anti American, Anti AF, or Anti CAP

If the State of California REQUIRES it for their SAR folks be it Sheriff, LE, and others then CAP may need to learn to live with it.

State of CA OES has been in the "bizness" of ICS and wildland fire for better than thirty years...surely not as long as CAP BUT their environment is as dangerous or more so than CAP missions ans occuring MORE OFTEN

Let's get off this Anti American and shame on CA for this.

AGAIN their operational environment requires it and for CAP to "bash" it smacks of we are better than them because we wear a set of BDU's or blues.  Also we as CAPers know what uniforms to wear on our missions...BUT I will defend that there is NO mention in 60-3 about it. 

Different missions, different uniforms....and yet same.....CAP "don't" like it???  TOUGH

Commenting on CA's decisions...well,  how about Ca OES commenting on US??? Would you CAPers like that ??  I know what goes around, come around.  I would get ready for a bunch of Californians to start talking trash about CAP..  If the read this thread,  be expecting it.  I know I would.  If it happens, I hope the trashing is equally good and hard hitting...even if it is CAP jokers joking around!!!!

[A.Member]

I do not know where CAPers get the idea that the orange shirt is somehow Anti American, Anti AF, or Anti CAP

If the State of California REQUIRES it for their SAR folks be it Sheriff, LE, and others then CAP may need to learn to live with it.

State of CA OES has been in the "bizness" of ICS and wildland fire for better than thirty years...surely not as long as CAP BUT their environment is as dangerous or more so than CAP missions ans occuring MORE OFTEN

Let's get off this Anti American and shame on CA for this.

AGAIN their operational environment requires it and for CAP to "bash" it smacks of we are better than them because we wear a set of BDU's or blues.  Also we as CAPers know what uniforms to wear on our missions...BUT I will defend that there is NO mention in 60-3 about it. 

Different missions, different uniforms....and yet same.....CAP "don't" like it???  TOUGH

Commenting on CA's decisions...well,  how about Ca OES commenting on US??? Would you CAPers like that ??  I know what goes around, come around.  I would get ready for a bunch of Californians to start talking trash about CAP..  If the read this thread,  be expecting it.  I know I would.  If it happens, I hope the trashing is equally good and hard hitting...even if it is CAP jokers joking around!!!!

Do you specifically know what coversations have taken place between CA Wing and the controlling CA agencies?  I mean really know?  How developed are those relationships?  Specifically, what missions are you being excluded from?  I admit that I have no idea.  My point is that heresay does not equate to fact.  My guess is that most (if not all) the comments here are pure speculation.

That said, I don't really have a dog in this fight and don't care much either way so long as it's understood that what is occuring is an exception to the rule for a specific situation only.  It does not replace or in any other way supersede the wear of uniforms in any other situation.

[Hawk200]

Used to be out in California, and never really thought an orange shirt was a bad idea. It's pretty visible, and a shirt without lower pockets would be a little easier when you're wearing load bearing equipment. If it's that BDU pattern two pocket top, it even functions well with the rest of what we wear.

My biggest question has always been, why design a whole uniform when a shirt is really all that is needed? Your legs aren't the part that's visible. 

Some folks have mentioned cost before. How is a whole new uniform cheaper than a shirt?

[heliodoc]

^^^^

No I am not privy to all their conversations

BUT I have operated in the CA environment plenty of times in wildland fire to KNOW that a selection of a piece of clothing for the operating environment.

I have a feeling PLENTY here is mere spec, too

BUT I will reiterate........ the operating environment is no way unAmerican or Anti AF for a new requirement and IF the State of CA says to CA Wing ...WEAR IT.   Then maybe its time for CAP NHQ and 1AF to see it the way CA does in their world

That is all I am saying  BTDT in that operating environment, Then it may be incumbent for CAP to sign a shirt out from CA OES and be held accountable for the shirt, huh?

We will see how it goes......

[Spike]

What was this thread about again??

[A.Member]

What was this thread about again??

Evidently about illustrating the thankless job the uniform team has in front of them.     

Seriously, my hat goes off to them.  No matter what they end up producing, it will not make everyone happy...nor should that be their objective.  From what I hear, they're putting in a lot of hard work and I respect them for that. 

[wuzafuzz]

With regard to the CA orange shirt:

• The uniform pictured earlier in this thread with the orange shirt, white helmet, and flowers in the foreground is not a CAP uniform.  That is a CALTRANS outfit, evidenced by the white and blue logo displayed.
• If OES says thou shalt wear orange, you wear orange.  BUT, I know of a few county SAR teams in CA that wear khaki shirts.  Maybe that's because they get their missions from the sheriff instead of OES.  Curious though.
• Orange isn't unpatriotic.  It is a common, but not universal, standard for SAR.  If the choice is to wear orange if you want state missions, then you wear orange.  Or take your toys and go home.

CA SAR ground folks not wearing orange shirts:
http://www.lasd.org/stations/for1/scv/search_rescue.html
http://montrosesar.org/  Looks like they wear orange jackets though
http://www.lasdreserve.org/SearchAndRescue.htm

CA OES probably made that rule with no thought as to how it might impact CAP.  They probably deal with hundreds of organizations and CAP is barely a pimple on a gnats behind in their big picture.  I wouldn't read too much into it. 

Heck, the CA ground teams are probably proud of their orange shirts and blend better with other ground team organizations.  Colorado used to do the same so it's not just some "Kalifornia" thing.  That practice stopped when Wyoming Wing complained about our folks wearing their orange shirts in WY.  (When Uniforms Attack...tonight on Fox.)

[RiverAux]

Hmm, is the California National Guard forced to wear this uniform while on SAR duties?  If they don't have to, we shouldn't have to. 

[heliodoc]

^^^^


CAP and Guard on an equal footing this week??

Doubtful for Guard

Realistically, doubtful for CAP, also

If someone says to CAP and CAP CC's agree  then CAOP "Gonna" complain??

Guard will have different issues

BUT ARNG and Marine troops on wildland fire HAVE TO WEAR NOMEX (yellow and green) when they are assigned wildland fire duties ... SOOOOOO  if the Governator says so... Guard will wear if it is pushed.

CAP get ready ready to don your range shirts

[RiverAux]

Firefighting uniforms are a safety issue.  Wearing a BDU/ABU is a hazard to that individual member's life.  This is not the case for SAR work. 

[heliodoc]

RiverAux

Thanks for telling about the safety issue as I have been in THIS business 9wildland fire) for 22 yrs now

SAR will and does demand a "safety issue" and do not be surprised if that card gets drawn

[arajca]

IIRC, the NB passed a provision to allow specific uniform combinations in wings for state-mandated and environmental reasons. Under that provision, the CA GTU could be applied for and most likely approved - if it hasn't already been.

[RiverAux]

I'm sure it has.  My problem isn't with CA Wing, its with the state.  We need to assert a little bit of our "federalness" here and if the NG can safely and efficiently participate in SAR in their normal uniforms, our members can as well. 

People will cry "safety" at anything.  That doesn't mean its legitimate.  Our SAR teams regularly walk along river and lake shores.  They better wear PFDs just in case.  They better wear snake chaps just in case. 

[Polecat]

The only uniform parts I want them to allow is the ECWCS trousers and fleece shirt.  I don't care about anything else but these. Although when it is 5 below and there is 3 1/2 feet of snow on the ground in the middle of the boonies, I will admit that I wear the trousers.

[Polecat]

People will cry "safety" at anything.  That doesn't mean its legitimate.

Awe man!  So that means my orange beer helmet isn't legit? But it is highly visible, protects my head from injury, prevents sunburn, and has TWO cupholders (with water and electrolyte supplements ofcourse) to keep me hydrated!!!!!  You guys have to go and ruin a good thing don't you?

[PA Guy]

Hmm, is the California National Guard forced to wear this uniform while on SAR duties?  If they don't have to, we shouldn't have to.

The only SAR the CA Natl  Guard provides is  aviation support.  They don't do ground SAR.  When on the fire line NG troops wear the wildland fire fighting ensmble from boots to hard hat.

[PA Guy]

I'm sure it has.  My problem isn't with CA Wing, its with the state.  We need to assert a little bit of our "federalness" here and if the NG can safely and efficiently participate in SAR in their normal uniforms, our members can as well. 

People will cry "safety" at anything.  That doesn't mean its legitimate.  Our SAR teams regularly walk along river and lake shores.  They better wear PFDs just in case.  They better wear snake chaps just in case.

Asserting your "federalness" in CA will not get you far.  The county sheriffs have primary responsibility for SAR.  There have been instances where county sheriffs have banned CAP from their counties SAR efforts, particularly ground SAR for a mult of sins including for asseting their "federalness".  You can argue all of the couldas, shouldas you want but that is the way it is.  After many yrs. the relationship now is fairly good and asserting our "federalness" would only bring harm to the relationship.  The bottom line is many of the  sheriffs don't really need CAP ground SAR since their own teams far surpass anything CAP can put in the field and some have a limited need CAP aircraft.

http://www.co.san-bernardino.ca.us/sheriff/volunteer/volunteer.asp

http://www.co.san-bernardino.ca.us/sheriff/aviation/aviation.asp